Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[BenTheDemon]

Alakazam does not belong in B- with all those UU scrubs!
He has two main sets that are both equally great. They are the Life Orb set and the Sash set.
For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to go with the arguably better set, the Sash set. Keep in mind that since Alakazam has Magic Guard, it's Sash will NOT be broken prematurely.
The moveset I'm using is Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, and Energy Ball

: Loses with Life Orb. Wins with Focus Sash 68.8% of the time.
252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 308-364 (95 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

: Same as Aegislash. The Life Orb set loses; the Sash set wins.
252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 724-852 (259.4 - 305.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

: Not the best matchup, but Alakazam can 2HKO with the Sash Set if you don't get unlucky with Focus Miss.
252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 154-182 (51.6 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

: Yet another instance of the Sash set being superior. Guaranteed 2HKO and Alakazam finally gets the treat of using it's STAB.
252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 166-196 (55.7 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

: Possible 3HKO. Can't win 'em all.
252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D: 92-110 (30.2 - 36.1%) -- 46.9% chance to 3HKO

: 2HKO, but the most common Deo-S set can't 2HKO Alakazam without a crit.
252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 196-232 (64.4 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

: 2HKO. Although, Thundurus can cripple Alakazam with Prankster Thunder Wave (I think that Thundurus should be Uber, but that's another debate.) Although it should be noted that the common Thundurus set cannot 2HKO Alakazam without a crit or paralysis hax.
252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 180-213 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I will edit this in the future to include A+ and A ranks, but feel free to do some calcs yourself. I'm been calcing and typing for over 30 minutes.

Conclusion: Though Alakazam cannot safely switch into essentially anything, it is an excellent revenge killer, winning 1 on 1 matchups with 6 of the 7 S-Ranks (I'm counting Aegislash). So B- is too low of a rank for Alakazam.

B- > A-

 

[LZH14]

You calc'd Aegislash blade instead of shield. Since Alakazam goes first, it'll go against shield and do...
252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 126-150 (38.8 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So no, against Aegislash Alakazam just dies.

 

[Flamebot]

You calc'd Aegislash blade instead of shield. Since Alakazam goes first, it'll go against shield and do...
252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 126-150 (38.8 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So no, against Aegislash Alakazam just dies.

No.
Aegislash attacks Alakazam, Alakazam hold onto focus sash and ko's it back

 

[EnerG218]

No.
Aegislash attacks Alakazam, Alakazam hold onto focus sash and ko's it back

It's alakazam attacks aegislash (it's faster) aegislash hits back, breaks sash, and can either ks and then kill it or just shadow sneak which will knock alakazam out

 

[LZH14]

No.
Aegislash attacks Alakazam, Alakazam hold onto focus sash and ko's it back

Aegislash uses shadow ball... Aegislash has a speed of like 50. Please tell me where Alakazam hits Aegislash-Blade in this equation?
Alakazam attacks Aegislash-Shield for approx 40-50%. Aegislash uses shadow ball and activates sash. Aegislash uses shadow sneak. No more Alakazam.
?????

 

[Full_Korbe]

Honestly, if you have to use Focus Miss to RK Charizard-X, you've already lost the match-up.

Alakazam really suffered from the shift to bulkier mons, and priority. Suddenly, threats are much more bulky and he is unable to KO them easily. Worse, he faces stiff competition with Deoxys-S. Deoxys-S does not have Magic Guard + Focus Sash, but he is much more quicker (enough to most scarfers) but he is nearly as powerful as Alakazam with a Life Orb and has much better coverage option (and Psycho Boost is insane).
All in all, I found that Alakazam isn't your "get of jail" card he was in 5G. When you lose to most sweepers (M-Pinsir and M-Mawile can live through an attack, Gyarados may require prediction and is bulky, Greninja outspeed you and can play Protean shenanigans), there is definitely a problem about your RK abilities. I'd use him with Thunder-Wave, so he can either kill (or damage) them or cripple them, alike Thundurus. He can still be a great RK if you have problem with Keldeo / Terrakion, for example, but he has suffered a lot.
He definitely belongs to B- imo. B- Pokemon are not bad, there are Gothitelle, Entei or Staraptor, which can all be great Pokemon, in their role. And that's exactly what Alakazam can be, in my mind.

 

[MegaMogwai]

I see the whole point of this, but I still view it as a bit ridiculous. The whole B+, B- stuff seems a bit... well you get what i'm trying to say. Pokemon is far from an exact science. Seriously though, i'm not trying to offend anyone with this statement.

 

[Karxrida]

Magic Bounce is an strong ability that makes almost every status move bounce back to you anytime the pokemon is present. Don't understimate it.

Deoxys-D, even though the 1760 stats pout it almost on the OU/UU benchmark is an S rank, wen it actually has the same bulk than Uxie (another SR user) and has worse bulk than Cresselia by a good %.

Deoxys-S is not a better screener than Espeon automnatically because only of Magic Bounce. Also, to surprise to you, Deoxys-S is more frail on one side than Espeon (and the other is a little bit bulkier, not much).

Espeon is a counter of Deoxys_D and Deoxys-S. And one of the best at that with Shadow Ball in the moveset.


And starting here, I'm going a bitt harsh. But in general it seems that the higher tier is expecting some OU pokemon to drop (even when it's based on the higher ladder already to filter all silly sets) because for their styles, they "suck". Examples of this are Espeon, Goodra and Blissey.

And I think that some people in the higher ladder want to nerf Baton Pass because the teams aren't well prepared and gives a pokemon that "suck" a top threat on those teams.

And in some cases they appear that they are overhyping some pokemon who they give as alternatives, although the cases are more limited. Example: Hippowdon (Honestly, it looks more an A- or B+ pokemon to me)

Espeon is C+ when Baton Pass teams is not relevant. If Baton pass are potentially broken, the pokemon that usually form a BP team should be increased, at least until the test ends.
Personally, if we are taking BP teams Espeon should be B+ rank, gioven how powerful it's in those teams.

And trust me, before the Deoxys formes went up to S rank, I was thinking if they could drop to A rank, and for me, I thought that Deoxys-D can be A rank for having not that great bulk, no offensive presence and being predictable while Depxys-S has too much uses (sometimes 2 at once) to even suggest a drop on ranking (Hazards, LO + SR; LO + 4 Attacks, Weather setter, Dual Screener) given how versalite it is.

This conclusion makes that maybe Doxys-S is an S rank for being effective in a multiple of roles and having a function of Do you want X happen really fast? You have Deoxys-S. But for me, Deoxys-D (and even less Bisharp) is not an S rank because I think it requires the opponent team to be "weak" to Stealth Rock. In UU Stealth Rock an Defog on the same team is rare because it's generally not worth it to hit the 2-3 SR weak pokemon (and the little ones who take 50% are usually leads).

Espeon's ability to bounce stuff back is super-reliant on prediction because of how frail it is; if you mis-predict you've lost a mon. It also sucks at keeping Hazards away because it loses to pretty much every SR setter 1v1 (even Deo-D depending on the set) and the fact that so many things could potentially have SR (do you really want to switch Espeon into every Garchomp/Excadrill/TYRANITAR you see?). Espeon is pretty much worthless outside of Baton Pass.

 

[theV8man]

Can anyone explain Charizard Y's S ranking? It's a great wallbreaker, but I don't see how it outclasses Kyurem-B, Mega-Medicham or specs Keldeo in that role.

 

[Ender Wiggin]

Can anyone explain Charizard Y's S ranking? It's a great wallbreaker, but I don't see how it outclasses Kyurem-B, Mega-Medicham or specs Keldeo in that role.

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jirachi: 255-301 (63.1 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Sun: 226-267 (55.9 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 193-228 (47.7 - 56.4%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 190-225 (47 - 55.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew: 109-130 (26.9 - 32.1%) -- 51.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

In order of power. The reason which gives charizard Y such a high ranking is it's great coverage combined with as you can see one of the harder hitting attacks in the game. Medicham simply lacks the perfect coverage if it runs it's standard substitute set as well as it lacks greatly in bulk. While 78/78 physical bulk isn't anything to brag about 115 special defense is nice throw on the amazing ability drought and you have a top level pokemon.

 

[Karxrida]

Can anyone explain Charizard Y's S ranking? It's a great wallbreaker, but I don't see how it outclasses Kyurem-B, Mega-Medicham or specs Keldeo in that role.

The existence of Zard X makes it really hard to figure out what to do when you see Zard in team preview and can get a free kill. Also, Y by itself is pretty unpredictable even after Mega Evolving since it can run mixed sets along with pure Special Attacking sets.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Okay, time to go bold...

Nominating Chansey to A+

This is the thing about Chansey: it just. walls. everything. There isn't a single wall, physical or special, who can wall one of the attacking sides as well as Chansey does. As long as there is a Chansey in the enemy team, every special attacker on yours is dead weight. She just walls everything.

So use physical attacks, right? Wrong. With the magic of Eviolite and her huge HP, she also becomes a physical wall. A fully defense invested Eviolite Chansey takes approximatelly 11% more damage from physical attacks than a fully defensive Skarmory, if you multiply her defense by their HP ratio. Yes, a fucking Skarmory. Forget Skarmbliss, Chansey already walls everything just by herself. The fact that she is only weak to fighting doesn't help, there are few physical or mixed attackers in the tier who can get past her monstrouous physical bulk. Just allow me to illustrate with examples:

Some sets can win with Secret Sword. Otherwise walled.

Wins with Knock Off

Walled until it sets up.

Walled

Walled

Walled

Walled

A+ Rank

Can Knock Off. Otherwise walled.

Walled unless using Choice Band or Swords Dance.

Walled

Walled until it sets up twice.

Wins with Secret Sword.

Substitute set is walled, Choice Band set wins.

Walled

Wins with Play Rough.

Wins with Return.

Walled until it sets up, or uses Knock Off.

Walled unless it can Swords Dance.

Walled until it sets up.

Walled

A Rank

Walled

Needs to set up to win with Outrage. Meh.

Walled

Walled

Walled

Walled

Walled

Walled, though it can Knock Off

Walled

Walled

Walled, though it can Knock Off

Walled, though it can Trick.

Wins with Close Combat.

Walled

A- Rank

Walled. LOL

Wins with Outrage, or after setting up.

Walled unless it sets up twice.

Walled

Walled

Walled

Wins with Swords Dance, or Knock Off. Otherwise not even the CB set can do it.

Walled

Walled

More than half of the pokemon in the upper ranks are unceremoniously walled by Chansey. Many need to set up just to have a chansey (sorry for the pun). Do you think the opposing team has an answer to that? It often does, and it's Quagsire. Chansey+Quagsire is so effective as a core it's ridiculous. Otherwise, Chansey can also do pretty well on balanced teams, with its ability to keep 3 or 4 pokemon in the opposing team in check. I don't think there are many pokemon in the tier who constraint teambuilding as much as Chansey. I'd nominate it for S, but I'm sticking to A+ just to be conservative. Forget Mega Venusaur, this is the best wall in the metagame.

 

[rachet67]

Okay, time to go bold...

Nominating Chansey to A+

This is the thing about Chansey: it just. walls. everything. There isn't a single wall, physical or special, who can wall one of the attacking sides as well as Chansey does. As long as there is a Chansey in the enemy team, every special attacker on yours is dead weight. She just walls everything.

So use physical attacks, right? Wrong. With the magic of Eviolite and her huge HP, she also becomes a physical wall. A fully defense invested Eviolite Chansey takes approximatelly 11% more damage from physical attacks than a fully defensive Skarmory, if you multiply her defense by their HP ratio. Yes, a fucking Skarmory. Forget Skarmbliss, Chansey already walls everything just by herself. The fact that she is only weak to fighting doesn't help, there are few physical or mixed attackers in the tier who can get past her monstrouous physical bulk. Just allow me to illustrate with examples:

Some sets can win with Secret Sword. Otherwise walled.

Wins with Knock Off

Walled until it sets up.

Walled

Walled

Walled

Walled

A+ Rank

Can Knock Off. Otherwise walled.

Walled unless using Choice Band or Swords Dance.

Walled

Walled until it sets up twice.

Wins with Secret Sword.

Substitute set is walled, Choice Band set wins.

Walled

Wins with Play Rough.

Wins with Return.

Walled until it sets up, or uses Knock Off.

Walled unless it can Swords Dance.

Walled until it sets up.

Walled

A Rank

Walled

Needs to set up to win with Outrage. Meh.

Walled

Walled

Walled

Walled

Walled

Walled, though it can Knock Off

Walled

Walled

Walled, though it can Knock Off

Walled, though it can Trick.

Wins with Close Combat.

Walled

A- Rank

Walled. LOL

Wins with Outrage, or after setting up.

Walled unless it sets up twice.

Walled

Walled

Walled

Wins with Swords Dance, or Knock Off. Otherwise not even the CB set can do it.

Walled

Walled

More than half of the pokemon in the upper ranks are unceremoniously walled by Chansey. Many need to set up just to have a chansey (sorry for the pun). Do you think the opposing team has an answer to that? It often does, and it's Quagsire. Chansey+Quagsire is so effective as a core it's ridiculous. Otherwise, Chansey can also do pretty well on balanced teams, with its ability to keep 3 or 4 pokemon in the opposing team in check. I don't think there are many pokemon in the tier who constraint teambuilding as much as Chansey. I'd nominate it for S, but I'm sticking to A+ just to be conservative. Forget Mega Venusaur, this is the best wall in the metagame.

You call this being walled?
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 381-448 (54.1 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 355-418 (50.4 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 312-367 (44.3 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 320-376 (45.4 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 364-430 (51.7 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 387-458 (54.9 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Stealth rock, not only ensures these 2HKO's, but also models the fact that in a real battle, Chansey will almost never come in at absolute full health, due to the lack of passive recovery.

That's not to mention that Chansey would always be switching into set up sweepers after the set up once, and its lack of offensive pressure means most of them can do so again. Thats also not to mention that half of the defensive pokemon listed can set up hazards, leech seed, or in Clefable's case, set up on it, while it can't do anything in return.

Chansey is still the best dedicated special wall in OU, just don't claim it can wall stuff it can't. Its fine in A-.

 

[Ash Borer]

lol @ "Gengar walled by Chansey"

 

[Karxrida]

Okay, time to go bold...

Nominating Chansey to A+

This is the thing about Chansey: it just. walls. everything. There isn't a single wall, physical or special, who can wall one of the attacking sides as well as Chansey does. As long as there is a Chansey in the enemy team, every special attacker on yours is dead weight. She just walls everything.

So use physical attacks, right? Wrong. With the magic of Eviolite and her huge HP, she also becomes a physical wall. A fully defense invested Eviolite Chansey takes approximatelly 11% more damage from physical attacks than a fully defensive Skarmory, if you multiply her defense by their HP ratio. Yes, a fucking Skarmory. Forget Skarmbliss, Chansey already walls everything just by herself. The fact that she is only weak to fighting doesn't help, there are few physical or mixed attackers in the tier who can get past her monstrouous physical bulk. Just allow me to illustrate with examples:

Some sets can win with Secret Sword. Otherwise walled.

Wins with Knock Off

Walled until it sets up.

Walled Some run Flare Blitz specifically to screw over Chansey.

Walled Runs Taunt and/or Knock Off, so it can screw you over.

Walled Might be running Knock Off

Walled Physical Defiant runs Knock Off and/or Superpower/Hammer Arm. SpA sets can run Taunt.

A+ Rank

Can Knock Off. Otherwise walled.

Walled unless using Choice Band or Swords Dance.

Walled

Walled until it sets up twice.

Wins with Secret Sword.

Substitute set is walled, Choice Band set wins.

Walled Some run Knock Off to screw you or U-Turn to get out.

Wins with Play Rough.

Wins with Return.

Walled until it sets up, or uses Knock Off. Can U-Turn out to a check.

Walled unless it can Swords Dance. It can also U-Turn out. Bulk Up sets may also run Taunt.

Walled until it sets up.

Walled Doesn't care about T-Wave and uses you for free Leech Seed health.

A Rank

Walled Magic Guard doesn't care about Toxic and CM sets will just set up on you.

Needs to set up to win with Outrage. Meh.

Walled Immune to both Toxic and T-Wave and uses you for set up bait with Swords Dance. YOU LOSE.

Walled Gets free Leech Seed health and uses you for free Spikes/SR.

Walled You can't do anything back anyway. Also, TrickScarf is still a thing.

Walled

Walled

Walled, though it can Knock Off Knock Off and U-Turn both screw you.

Walled Psyshock and TrickScarf

Walled

Walled, though it can Knock Off

Walled, though it can Trick.

Wins with Close Combat.

Walled Banded Crunches fucking hurt.

A- Rank

Walled. LOL

Wins with Outrage, or after setting up.

Walled unless it sets up twice. Non-Mega Gyarados sometimes runs Taunt, iirc.

Walled Psyshock and TrickScarf.

Walled Life Orb Icicle Crash/Earthquakes fucking hurt.

Walled

Wins with Swords Dance, or Knock Off. Otherwise not even the CB set can do it. CB set can U-Turn out and put on the fucking hurt.

Walled

Walled

More than half of the pokemon in the upper ranks are unceremoniously walled by Chansey. Many need to set up just to have a chansey (sorry for the pun). Do you think the opposing team has an answer to that? It often does, and it's Quagsire. Chansey+Quagsire is so effective as a core it's ridiculous. Otherwise, Chansey can also do pretty well on balanced teams, with its ability to keep 3 or 4 pokemon in the opposing team in check. I don't think there are many pokemon in the tier who constraint teambuilding as much as Chansey. I'd nominate it for S, but I'm sticking to A+ just to be conservative. Forget Mega Venusaur, this is the best wall in the metagame.

Replies are underlined.

 

[LemonGirl]

I see that more than half of S through A- have a way to just outright 2HKO Chansey, use her as set-up fodder, or simply screw her over with Knock Off/Leech Seed.

 

[theV8man]

Can Knock Off. Otherwise walled.

Can Belly Drum.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Can Belly Drum.

Or run superpower.

 

[Lavern]

Some sets can win with Secret Sword. Otherwise walled.

Nice and powerful Flamethrower coming from 35 Base SpA o]

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Espeon has a function in your team. Discouraging the using of entry hazards while being an acceptable offensive force. 130 Base SpA is not "low", 110 Base Speed it's not "slow" We know that without Magic Bounce, Espeon is unviable in OU. And because they forgot it, Magoic Bounce efect is that the status move you throw to the opponent gets bounced back to the user and the user will recive the nasty effects of them if it's possible.

With Deoxys-S you have to use Taunt or Magic Coat, with Espeon a switch out and voila, hazards reflected.

And we'll see how bulky is Deoxys-S is:
252 SpA Moltres Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 183-216 (67.2 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
and
252 SpA Moltres Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 190-225 (78.5 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Surprise! Espeon is bulkier than Deoxys-D by a non-negliglible margin. And this comes from a unboosted Moltres

And with physical attacks, let's see
252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 202-238 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs
252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 280-330 (102.9 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Here, to no surprise Deoxys-S is more bulky.

We agree that Deoxys-S is better as a revenge killer (mixed, Psycho Boost), that has the role of hazard setter and it's one of the best pokemon in doing that, that can be adapted to set up a lot of types of teams. But this doesn't mean that Espeon is 100% unviable because of this.

If Espeon doesn't deserve a higher ranking because of Baton pass, which for some are "uncompetitive" because Espeon (and Scolipede) Kabutops shouldn't get a B+ ranking because it requires support of Rain teams (and this is not BW).

And about the discussion Deoxys-D vs uxie vs Cresselia. Uxie is outclassed by DeoxysD and Cresselia. About Cresselia, normally he is "worse" than Deoxys-D... in Singles (in Doubles is a completely different history) because the main function of Deoxys-D is setting up hazards, not being a full wall.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Espeon has a function in your team. Discouraging the using of entry hazards while being an acceptable offensive force. 130 Base SpA is not "low", 110 Base Speed it's not "slow" We know that without Magic Bounce, Espeon is unviable in OU. And because they forgot it, Magoic Bounce efect is that the status move you throw to the opponent gets bounced back to the user and the user will recive the nasty effects of them if it's possible.

With Deoxys-S you have to use Taunt or Magic Coat, with Espeon a switch out and voila, hazards reflected.

And we'll see how bulky is Deoxys-S is:
252 SpA Moltres Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 183-216 (67.2 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
and
252 SpA Moltres Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 190-225 (78.5 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Surprise! Espeon is bulkier than Deoxys-D by a non-negliglible margin. And this comes from a unboosted Moltres

And with physical attacks, let's see
252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 202-238 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs
252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 280-330 (102.9 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Here, to no surprise Deoxys-S is more bulky.

We agree that Deoxys-S is better as a revenge killer (mixed, Psycho Boost), that has the role of hazard setter and it's one of the best pokemon in doing that, that can be adapted to set up a lot of types of teams. But this doesn't mean that Espeon is 100% unviable because of this.

If Espeon doesn't deserve a higher ranking because of Baton pass, which for some are "uncompetitive" because Espeon (and Scolipede) Kabutops shouldn't get a B+ ranking because it requires support of Rain teams (and this is not BW).

And about the discussion Deoxys-D vs uxie vs Cresselia. Uxie is outclassed by DeoxysD and Cresselia. About Cresselia, normally he is "worse" than Deoxys-D... in Singles (in Doubles is a completely different history) because the main function of Deoxys-D is setting up hazards, not being a full wall.

I'm not sure why you're referring to either of their bulk, because I'm going to tell you right now that the difference isn't enough to matter.

Also you're going to want to lead with Dual Screens in 99.9999% of matches, so the whole "Espeon switches into hazards thing" is irrelevant, since it'll die after its sets up both screens.

I never said Espeon was unviable outside of Baton Pass at all. It just takes a ton of fucking support and is outclassed by a lot of Pokemon. Yes, it has it's niche outside of Baton Pass. But that niche is extremely small.

Also, because of Baton Pass, Espeon needs to be moved up tbh. I don't care where, probably somewhere around the B - A- range. But there's a reason Baton Pass is being suspected. It's because it's good. And Espeon is a huge factor in what's making it so good. Therefore, Espeon should rise.

 

[Karxrida]

Espeon has a function in your team. Discouraging the using of entry hazards while being an acceptable offensive force. 130 Base SpA is not "low", 110 Base Speed it's not "slow" We know that without Magic Bounce, Espeon is unviable in OU. And because they forgot it, Magoic Bounce efect is that the status move you throw to the opponent gets bounced back to the user and the user will recive the nasty effects of them if it's possible.

With Deoxys-S you have to use Taunt or Magic Coat, with Espeon a switch out and voila, hazards reflected.

And we'll see how bulky is Deoxys-S is:
252 SpA Moltres Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Espeon: 183-216 (67.2 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
and
252 SpA Moltres Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 190-225 (78.5 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Surprise! Espeon is bulkier than Deoxys-D by a non-negliglible margin. And this comes from a unboosted Moltres

And with physical attacks, let's see
252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 202-238 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
vs
252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 280-330 (102.9 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Here, to no surprise Deoxys-S is more bulky.

We agree that Deoxys-S is better as a revenge killer (mixed, Psycho Boost), that has the role of hazard setter and it's one of the best pokemon in doing that, that can be adapted to set up a lot of types of teams. But this doesn't mean that Espeon is 100% unviable because of this.

If Espeon doesn't deserve a higher ranking because of Baton pass, which for some are "uncompetitive" because Espeon (and Scolipede) Kabutops shouldn't get a B+ ranking because it requires support of Rain teams (and this is not BW).

And about the discussion Deoxys-D vs uxie vs Cresselia. Uxie is outclassed by DeoxysD and Cresselia. About Cresselia, normally he is "worse" than Deoxys-D... in Singles (in Doubles is a completely different history) because the main function of Deoxys-D is setting up hazards, not being a full wall.

Espeon cannot switch into any Hazards setter safely except for Deoxys-D, which can deal a minimum of 47% with Knock Off and no offensive investment and finish you off with Night Shade/Seismic Toss on non-suicide lead sets. Espeon is also easy as fuck to lure out, since you have to switch it in to reflect hazards, except you're not reflecting hazards and are instead taking a Gyro Ball/Earthquake/Outrage/Crunch/etc to the face. It sucks and should stay at C+, and will probably drop depending on how BP chains are nerfed.

 

[Baharoth]

Okay, time to go bold...

Nominating Chansey to A+

This is the thing about Chansey: it just. walls. everything. There isn't a single wall, physical or special, who can wall one of the attacking sides as well as Chansey does. As long as there is a Chansey in the enemy team, every special attacker on yours is dead weight. She just walls everything.

So use physical attacks, right? Wrong. With the magic of Eviolite and her huge HP, she also becomes a physical wall. A fully defense invested Eviolite Chansey takes approximatelly 11% more damage from physical attacks than a fully defensive Skarmory, if you multiply her defense by their HP ratio. Yes, a fucking Skarmory. Forget Skarmbliss, Chansey already walls everything just by herself. The fact that she is only weak to fighting doesn't help, there are few physical or mixed attackers in the tier who can get past her monstrouous physical bulk. Just allow me to illustrate with examples:

Some sets can win with Secret Sword. Otherwise walled.

Wins with Knock Off

Walled until it sets up.

Walled

Walled

Walled

Walled

A+ Rank

Can Knock Off. Otherwise walled.

Walled unless using Choice Band or Swords Dance.

Walled

Walled until it sets up twice.

Wins with Secret Sword.

Substitute set is walled, Choice Band set wins.

Walled

Wins with Play Rough.

Wins with Return.

Walled until it sets up, or uses Knock Off.

Walled unless it can Swords Dance.

Walled until it sets up.

Walled

A Rank

Walled

Needs to set up to win with Outrage. Meh.

Walled

Walled

Walled

Walled

Walled

Walled, though it can Knock Off

Walled

Walled

Walled, though it can Knock Off

Walled, though it can Trick.

Wins with Close Combat.

Walled

A- Rank

Walled. LOL

Wins with Outrage, or after setting up.

Walled unless it sets up twice.

Walled

Walled

Walled

Wins with Swords Dance, or Knock Off. Otherwise not even the CB set can do it.

Walled

Walled

More than half of the pokemon in the upper ranks are unceremoniously walled by Chansey. Many need to set up just to have a chansey (sorry for the pun). Do you think the opposing team has an answer to that? It often does, and it's Quagsire. Chansey+Quagsire is so effective as a core it's ridiculous. Otherwise, Chansey can also do pretty well on balanced teams, with its ability to keep 3 or 4 pokemon in the opposing team in check. I don't think there are many pokemon in the tier who constraint teambuilding as much as Chansey. I'd nominate it for S, but I'm sticking to A+ just to be conservative. Forget Mega Venusaur, this is the best wall in the metagame.

While I agree that Chansey deserves a promotion your list is a bit flawed. First, saying it walls something that can setup on it or cripple it with knock off is... well... wrong. Chansey cant do anything about setup sweepers so it cant wall them at all and walling something at the cost of eviolite is a rather bad idea as well most of the time. Furthermore, most of the defensive mons and some offensive ones that are walled by Chansey wall it right back. What is Chansey supposed to do against Aegi, Gengar, Hippo, Venu etc? Nothing. So yes she can wall them but that doesnt make her a good switch in.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Alright, I'll admit my list has flaws. I'm not a very experienced player so I can't easily think of every common set. Sorry about that.

Also, against Aegi and the others you mentioned, Chansey can't kill them, but they give her free turns to pass Wishes and use Heal Bell. And that's the entire point of using Chansey, it's not like she's going to kill anything in the match, but as long as she is there, the opposing team will have a hard time killing anything either, since she is very easy to bring in and force switches, while reversing the damage and status her opponents causes to her team. And that's only because she can wall many pokemon. There are a lot of pokemon who can beat her given the right movesets (like the Knock Off ones), but the keyword here is can, not every pokemon runs the perfectly optimal anti-Chansey set all the time, you don't put Knock Off on every pokemon of your team who can learn it just because of Chansey (and if you do, that's a testament to how great Chansey is). The bottomline is, unless the opponent team is VERY offensive, Chansey usually walls half, if not more, of it. It makes a big influence in a match, because it shuts down a lot of pokemon just by existing. It's severely underrated.

 

[jbtc10]

What is Chansey supposed to do against Aegi, Gengar, Hippo, Venu etc? Nothing.

Major nitpick here, but she poisons Hippo, and easily beats it 1v1 if it's stupid enough to stay in.

The thing about her counters is that she can always use Wish as they come in, which gives an essentially free switch into a counter for what they just brought in. There's also a chance she'll paralyze Gengar, Aegislash or a physical sweeper with Thunder Wave as they come in, so she certainly doesn't always give free switches and can definitely cripple things she's not normally considered to. She should be A really, A+ is understandable though, and I have her on virtually all of my Balanced and Stall teams because she's the best cleric and special wall by a country mile, and pretty much puts all other would-be clerics to shame. Being the best cleric (arguably the only worthwhile one) and special wall simultaneously has to count for something, and A rank is perfect for that.