Get out of here if you don't even know that Seismitoad is a great check to Thundurus for rain teams. Do you even play?
Also I want to throw my support behind Bisharp and Charizard Y to A+
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
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Get out of here if you don't even know that Seismitoad is a great check to Thundurus for rain teams. Do you even play?
Also I want to throw my support behind Bisharp and Charizard Y to A+
I fully support this, especially when it comes to Charizard Y. Although it has that impressive fire blast, it can't break past chansey and is terribly easy to revenge kill. It's just not effective enough to deserve top-tier status.
Edit: Not to mention that it's walled by Chansey and Hippowdon.
I run it on Defiant sets with Wild Charge / Superpower / Knock Off / Grass Knot to beat Hippowdown, try it out sometime!
Interesting. However, the problem with Thundurus vs. rain is priority Twave. If you're not running it at all, they have no reason to even use Seismitoed. If they see that you don't have Prankster, all the Rain sweepers, barring Seismitoed, will actually beat you. I think. It is a nice lure, and a good HO set, but it can't beat Tops, unlike Twave.
ANYWAY, ON TO MEGA AMPH:
My firm belief is that Mega Ampharos is severely underrated and much more threatening than people give it credit for, and with Raikou and Mega Manectric moving up I personally nominate this change:
Mega Ampharos ---> C+/ B
And here are the reasons why. Mega Ampharos, unlike other Megas, is not a sweeper or a wall. He's a bulky pivot switch. And as far as pivot switches go, he's arguably the best of them all. With base 90 / 105 / 110 defenses, he's almost as bulky as Umbreon, and with 165 base special attack, he's the second hardest hitting Mega Evolution (specially) not in Ubers bar Alakazam. He also has an incredibly rare, and incredibly good, defensive and offensive typing in Dragon/Electric, providing key resists in Flying, Steel, Fire, 4x Electric, Water, and grass, as well as superb STAB coverage. What he lacks in STAB coverage he makes up for with his incredibly diverse movepool for an electric type, including Focus Blast and the elusive Power Gem.
Now, that being said, he isn't an S or A+ tier threat by a long shot. His weaknesses to Ice and Ground are hinderances, yes, and he shares the same Dragon and Fairy weaknesses with the other Dragons. He isn't designed to perform as a sweeper, and he should't be played as one. What he CAN do, however, is check and counter several threatening pokemon all at once that other threats fail to do. And here's the list, assuming we're running Modest Nature 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef, with exceptions pointed out (I get tired near the A ranks so I'll just say win or lose, and clarify in a later edit when I'm not so exhausted -- ones left empty I will fill in as I do later edits):
He's bulky, he's strong, he's fabulous. He's got flaws but also substantial strengths. I really think all this warrants him a B ranking. At the very least a B-, and ABSOLUTELY not a C+. He was probably plopped there due to being overlooked without much thought, but hopefully this can shed some light on the matter, or at least start a thorough discussion.
My firm belief is that Mega Ampharos is severely underrated and much more threatening than people give it credit for, and with Raikou and Mega Manectric moving up I personally nominate this change:
Mega Ampharos ---> C+/ B
And here are the reasons why. Mega Ampharos, unlike other Megas, is not a sweeper or a wall. He's a bulky pivot switch. And as far as pivot switches go, he's arguably the best of them all. With base 90 / 105 / 110 defenses, he's almost as bulky as Umbreon, and with 165 base special attack, he's the second hardest hitting Mega Evolution (specially) not in Ubers bar Alakazam. He also has an incredibly rare, and incredibly good, defensive and offensive typing in Dragon/Electric, providing key resists in Flying, Steel, Fire, 4x Electric, Water, and grass, as well as superb STAB coverage. What he lacks in STAB coverage he makes up for with his incredibly diverse movepool for an electric type, including Focus Blast and the elusive Power Gem.
Now, that being said, he isn't an S or A+ tier threat by a long shot. His weaknesses to Ice and Ground are hinderances, yes, and he shares the same Dragon and Fairy weaknesses with the other Dragons. He isn't designed to perform as a sweeper, and he should't be played as one. What he CAN do, however, is check and counter several threatening pokemon all at once that other threats fail to do. And here's the list, assuming we're running Modest Nature 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef, with exceptions pointed out (I get tired near the A ranks so I'll just say win or lose, and clarify in a later edit when I'm not so exhausted -- ones left empty I will fill in as I do later edits):
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
Aegislash - Swords Dance sets are mildly threatening, but Amph is slower, so when Slash does choose to attack, Amph can almost always survive the hit, and OHKO with Thunderbolt
Bisharp - Not a problem. Even when uninvested in bulk, Bisharp's Sucker Punch does around 49% on average, whereas Focus Blast does around 350%. Even T-Bolt has a 94% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Charizard (Mega-X) - Yeah, don't leave in Amph against this guy.
Charizard (Mega-Y) - Mega Amph wins 1v1 with Zard-Y every time. Y's earthquake does a measly 33.3 - 39.5%, whereas T-Bolt does 114.7 - 135.5%. Check there.
Deoxys-D - T-Bolt does about 32.8 - 38.8% against specially defensive Deo-D, so like with any other 'mon facing this brick wall, you can wear it down, but it'll take a bit.
Deoxys-S - T-Bolt does between 69.4 - 81.9%, so guaranteed 2HKO.
Landorus - You'd have to be stupid to leave in Amph here, but stunningly, if using the Specially Defensive set (which you should), 1v1, Ampharos WINS. The calcs to prove it:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 307-367 (79.9 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 324-384 (101.2 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Thundurus - Again, Amph wins 1v1 here as well. Amph's T-Bolt does around 77.3 - 91.3%, whereas Thundy's HP Ice does around 30.7 - 36.4%.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time
A+ Rank
Azumarill - Should you choose to run an Agility set, or just Max Speed + Jolly, or really just do something to outspeed Azumarill, you'll win here. If not, Amph will fall to the blue bunny's mighty Play Rough.
Excadrill - When invested in Defense, Excadrills EQ does around 67.1 - 79.6%, whereas Amph's Focus Blast does around 122.8 - 143.1%. The best idea is to nail him on the switch.
Garchomp - Lose
Greninja - If Specially Defensive w/ Focus Blast, win
Gyarados (Mega) - If unboosted, win
Keldeo - Win
Kyurem-B - Lose
Mawile (Mega) - Lose
Pinsir (Mega) - If unboosted, win, if boosted, lose to EQ
Scizor (Mega) - If unboosted, win. If SD is up, lose to Superpower
Talonflame - Hard counter to Talonflame, win
Tyranitar (Mega) - If unboosted, win with Focus Blast. If boosted, lose to EQ
Venusaur (Mega) - Stally as hell, just switch out
A Rank
Clefable - Assuming CM, lose. Switch out.
Dragonite - If multiscale is broken by SR, win. If not, lose
Ferrothorn - Win
Gengar - Win
Heatran - Win
Hippowdon - Lose
Landorus-T - Lose
Latios - Lose unless stat drop from Drago Meteor already occurred, at which point win. But basically lose
Manaphy - Win
Mandibuzz - Win
Rotom-W - Win
Terrakion - Win
Tyranitar - Win
A- Rank
Chansey - Neither, switch out
Garchomp (Mega) - Lose
Gyarados - Win
Latias - Lose
Mamoswine - If invested in defense, win with Focus Blast. If not, lose to EQ
Politoed - Win
Scizor - Win
Skarmory - OHKO thanks to Mold Breaker
Zapdos - Win
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
B+ Rank
Breloom - Win
Conkeldurr - Lose
Diggersby - Lose
Gardevoir (Mega) - Lose
Gliscor - If nailed on the switch with HP Ice, win. If not, lose 1v1
Kabutops - Win
Manectric (Mega) - Win
Medicham (Mega) - Iffy, usually lose
Raikou - Win against non-assault vest variants
Scolipede - Win
Slowbro - Win
B Rank
Chesnaught - Win
Heracross (Mega) - Lose
Kingdra - If Specially Defensive, Win
Lucario - Win
Mew - Very much depends on the set
Quagsire - Win (EQ doesn't do much, and Quag has lower speed and shit SDef)
Suicune - Before the Calm Mind shit starts, win. Pray for a crit after.
Sylveon - Lose
Tornadus-T - Win
B- Rank
Absol (Mega) - Win
Alakazam - Win
Alakazam (Mega) - Win
Amoonguss - Depends on the set/status, usually win. Better to switch out.
Blastoise (Mega) - Win
Crawdaunt - Win
Gothitelle - Win
Rhyperior - If defensive, win. If not, lose
Staraptor - Win
Thundurus-T - Thanks to mold breaker, unboosted, win. After Nasty Plot, lose.
Victini - Win
Volcarona - Depends on the switches/Quiver Dances set up, but 1v1, win
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 307-367 (79.9 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 324-384 (101.2 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time
A+ Rank
Azumarill - Should you choose to run an Agility set, or just Max Speed + Jolly, or really just do something to outspeed Azumarill, you'll win here. If not, Amph will fall to the blue bunny's mighty Play Rough.
A Rank
Clefable - Assuming CM, lose. Switch out.
A- Rank
Chansey - Neither, switch out
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
B+ Rank
Breloom - WinConkeldurr - LoseDiggersby - Lose
B Rank
Chesnaught - WinHeracross (Mega) - Lose
B- Rank
He's bulky, he's strong, he's fabulous. He's got flaws but also substantial strengths. I really think all this warrants him a B ranking. At the very least a B-, and ABSOLUTELY not a C+. He was probably plopped there due to being overlooked without much thought, but hopefully this can shed some light on the matter, or at least start a thorough discussion.
ANYWAY, ON TO MEGA AMPH:
My firm belief is that Mega Ampharos is severely underrated and much more threatening than people give it credit for, and with Raikou and Mega Manectric moving up I personally nominate this change:
Mega Ampharos ---> C+/ B
And here are the reasons why. Mega Ampharos, unlike other Megas, is not a sweeper or a wall. He's a bulky pivot switch. And as far as pivot switches go, he's arguably the best of them all. With base 90 / 105 / 110 defenses, he's almost as bulky as Umbreon, and with 165 base special attack, he's the second hardest hitting Mega Evolution (specially) not in Ubers bar Alakazam. He also has an incredibly rare, and incredibly good, defensive and offensive typing in Dragon/Electric, providing key resists in Flying, Steel, Fire, 4x Electric, Water, and grass, as well as superb STAB coverage. What he lacks in STAB coverage he makes up for with his incredibly diverse movepool for an electric type, including Focus Blast and the elusive Power Gem.
Now, that being said, he isn't an S or A+ tier threat by a long shot. His weaknesses to Ice and Ground are hinderances, yes, and he shares the same Dragon and Fairy weaknesses with the other Dragons. He isn't designed to perform as a sweeper, and he should't be played as one. What he CAN do, however, is check and counter several threatening pokemon all at once that other threats fail to do. And here's the list, assuming we're running Modest Nature 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef, with exceptions pointed out (I get tired near the A ranks so I'll just say win or lose, and clarify in a later edit when I'm not so exhausted -- ones left empty I will fill in as I do later edits):
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.
Aegislash - Swords Dance sets are mildly threatening, but Amph is slower, so when Slash does choose to attack, Amph can almost always survive the hit, and OHKO with Thunderbolt
Bisharp - Not a problem. Even when uninvested in bulk, Bisharp's Sucker Punch does around 49% on average, whereas Focus Blast does around 350%. Even T-Bolt has a 94% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Charizard (Mega-X) - Yeah, don't leave in Amph against this guy.
Charizard (Mega-Y) - Mega Amph wins 1v1 with Zard-Y every time. Y's earthquake does a measly 33.3 - 39.5%, whereas T-Bolt does 114.7 - 135.5%. Check there.
Deoxys-D - T-Bolt does about 32.8 - 38.8% against specially defensive Deo-D, so like with any other 'mon facing this brick wall, you can wear it down, but it'll take a bit.
Deoxys-S - T-Bolt does between 69.4 - 81.9%, so guaranteed 2HKO.
Landorus - You'd have to be stupid to leave in Amph here, but stunningly, if using the Specially Defensive set (which you should), 1v1, Ampharos WINS. The calcs to prove it:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 307-367 (79.9 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 324-384 (101.2 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Thundurus - Again, Amph wins 1v1 here as well. Amph's T-Bolt does around 77.3 - 91.3%, whereas Thundy's HP Ice does around 30.7 - 36.4%.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time
A+ Rank
Excadrill - When invested in Defense, Excadrills EQ does around 67.1 - 79.6%, whereas Amph's Focus Blast does around 122.8 - 143.1%. The best idea is to nail him on the switch.
Garchomp - Lose
Greninja - If Specially Defensive w/ Focus Blast, win
Gyarados (Mega) - If unboosted, win
Keldeo - Win
Kyurem-B - Lose
Mawile (Mega) - Lose
Pinsir (Mega) - If unboosted, win, if boosted, lose to EQ
Scizor (Mega) - If unboosted, win. If SD is up, lose to Superpower
Talonflame - Hard counter to Talonflame, win
Tyranitar (Mega) - If unboosted, win with Focus Blast. If boosted, lose to EQ
Venusaur (Mega) - Stally as hell, just switch out
A Rank
Dragonite - If multiscale is broken by SR, win. If not, lose
Ferrothorn - Win
Gengar - Win
Heatran - Win
Hippowdon - Lose
Landorus-T - Lose
Latios - Lose unless stat drop from Drago Meteor already occurred, at which point win. But basically lose
Manaphy - Win
Mandibuzz - Win
Rotom-W - Win
Terrakion - Win
Tyranitar - Win
A- Rank
Garchomp (Mega) - Lose
Gyarados - Win
Latias - Lose
Mamoswine - If invested in defense, win with Focus Blast. If not, lose to EQ
Politoed - Win
Scizor - Win
Skarmory - OHKO thanks to Mold Breaker
Zapdos - Win
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
B+ Rank
Gardevoir (Mega) - Lose
Gliscor - If nailed on the switch with HP Ice, win. If not, lose 1v1
Kabutops - Win
Manectric (Mega) - Win
Medicham (Mega) - Iffy, usually lose
Raikou - Win against non-assault vest variants
Scolipede - Win
Slowbro - Win
B Rank
Kingdra - If Specially Defensive, Win
Lucario - Win
Mew - Very much depends on the set
Quagsire - Win (EQ doesn't do much, and Quag has lower speed and shit SDef)
Suicune - Before the Calm Mind shit starts, win. Pray for a crit after.
Sylveon - Lose
Tornadus-T - Win
B- Rank
Absol (Mega) - Win
Alakazam - Win
Alakazam (Mega) - Win
Amoonguss - Depends on the set/status, usually win. Better to switch out.
Blastoise (Mega) - Win
Crawdaunt - Win
Gothitelle - Win
Rhyperior - If defensive, win. If not, lose
Staraptor - Win
Thundurus-T - Thanks to mold breaker, unboosted, win. After Nasty Plot, lose.
Victini - Win
Volcarona - Depends on the switches/Quiver Dances set up, but 1v1, win
He's bulky, he's strong, he's fabulous. He's got flaws but also substantial strengths. I really think all this warrants him a B ranking. At the very least a B-, and ABSOLUTELY not a C+. He was probably plopped there due to being overlooked without much thought, but hopefully this can shed some light on the matter, or at least start a thorough discussion.
I disagree, Ampharos is a reasonably strong, bulky attacker who can pivot well, but I don't think it deserves B. It's very slow, weak to ground and ice, making it somewhat hard to switch in, and the lack of recovery is big on a bulky pivot, Ampharos doesn't tend to stick around for too long, except for its defensive set, with wish and heal bell, which I would argue is viable, but outclassed by the blobs. Also your win/loss list isn't wholly accurate, given the job of a pivot is to switch in on threats and pivot out, not beat them when both are sent out at the same time. Ampharos gets worn down even faster than Rotom W in my opinion, who partially eclipses it, along with mega manetric as an offensive pivot, chansey/clefable as clerics and wish passers, and Tornadus especially, one of the best pivots in the metagame, making Ampharos by definition a C rank. It's not bad, but there are better choices, that don't take your mega slot.
I know what his role is, but people like numbers and definitive answers. And Ampharos isn't reasonably strong, he's VERY strong. 165 base special attack is quite mighty.
Heal bell is a bad option on Ampharos. Ampharos sure as hell ain't a cleric. It needs wish support to stick around long, yes, but that's what the pink blobs are for on any team. Rotom-W gets pain split, but that's not exactly 'reliable recovery', and it's nowhere near as tanky. Anyway.
Yes. Ampharos' role is to hit hard and switch out. Not stay in and sweep. But what it does it does better than anyone else, and that is being the bulkiest and hardest hitting pivot switch in the game. It can handle so many threats. With Wish Support from the Blobs/Sylveon, it has plently of reasons to take up a Mega Slot.
Edit: Mega Amph is a way better pivot than Tornadus.
Deoxys S and Bisharp shouldn't be S rank. Deoxys S is literally killed by anything that carries knock off or sucker punch, he's not even that solid as a revenge killer and as a Suicide lead he's horrible. Bisharp is a great threat to any team but he's easily manageable that even Deoxys D can kill him with superpower. While he hits hard especially with defiant, just because he's such a great part of HO doesn't mean he's an S rank Pokemon.
> A+ rank
> A+ rank
> A+ rank
> A+ rank even with so much that I support this guy, he's the BEST wallbreaker in the game but the metagame has adapted.
Don't see how a wallbreaker that's inferior to Zard Y should be in S if Zard Y drops, incredibly easy to counter, and while he has a good speed tier, Anything that carries an Ice move can kill it before Lando can kill back.
Don't see how a wallbreaker that's inferior to Zard Y should be in S if Zard Y drops, incredibly easy to counter, and while he has a good speed tier, Anything that carries an Ice move can kill it before Lando can kill back.
Tornadus-T actually hits about as hard, thanks to it's ability to hold a life orb, a problem for mega ampharos, and requires less support due to regenerator. It also supports it's team much better, with knock off, not being blocked by ground types, being able to go mixed, and having a more diverse offensive movepool. It certainly is better to place on a team and expect performance, and doesn't waste your mega slot. M Ampharos wants/needs defog support and wish support much more than TornT because it is a bulky pivot, meaning it's taking hits. Ampharos has a high utility cost, in that your tornadus can pivot out into another, much more threatening mega to sweep, or a bulkier mega to wall. Ampharos struggles to distinguish itself from other megas, and generally a different pivot is superior, as they have lower opportunity cost.
Tornadus-T isn't a remotely decent comparison. Ones fast and frail, one's slow and tanky. They function completely differently. Also, with Wish support, defog support is not at all necessary.
They check completely different pokemon. They have completely different typing. They have a vastly different movepool. They function completely differently. As pivot switches go, they couldn't be less alike. Please stop comparing those two.
Ok, I'll ignore Tornadus. That was a response to you saying tornadus is worse (comparing). But then we can use a slower, bulkier pivot, like Rotom, who shares the electric type. Rotom is certainly not as good as Ampharos, with worse stats and typing, but rotom doesn't have the same opportunity cost, which you're failing to mention in all of your posts. The biggest problem with Mega Ampharos is that you're wasting your mega on a bulky pivot, who does it's job well certainly, but is it worth the change you get from running rotom? You're losing the chance to use many of the most frightening pokemon in the tier to use... a better version of rotom-w. It isn't even THAT much better, and means you can't use a third of the S tier, or a half of the A+ tier. That's why it's so low, because it needs a lot of support to function well, and removes opportunity cost.
Deoxys S and Bisharp shouldn't be S rank. Deoxys S is literally killed by anything that carries knock off or sucker punch, he's not even that solid as a revenge killer and as a Suicide lead he's horrible. Bisharp is a great threat to any team but he's easily manageable that even Deoxys D can kill him with superpower. While he hits hard especially with defiant, just because he's such a great part of HO doesn't mean he's an S rank Pokemon.
> A+ rank
> A+ rank
> A+ rank
> A+ rank even with so much that I support this guy, he's the BEST wallbreaker in the game but the metagame has adapted.
Don't see how a wallbreaker that's inferior to Zard Y should be in S if Zard Y drops, incredibly easy to counter, and while he has a good speed tier, Anything that carries an Ice move can kill it before Lando can kill back.
Here's why Lando-I should be S and Zard Y should be A+.
- Lando-I doesn't take up a Mega Evolution
- Lando-I isn't 4x weak to Stealth Rock
- Lando-I is much less predictable (Knock Off, Sludge Wave, Rock Polish, Gravity, Calm Mind, Choice Scarf, etc)
- Lando-I can run both special and physical movesets
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 387-458 (106.3 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Clefable: 354-416 (89.8 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 536-632 (152.2 - 179.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 272-321 (71.2 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Lando-T can't do anything back unless running HP Ice which is rare af)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 941-1113 (243.7 - 288.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 302-356 (71.9 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (All Hippo can do is Whirlwind)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 316-373 (74.5 - 87.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 287-338 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 806-951 (199.5 - 235.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 309-367 (48.2 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Lando can also screw this bitch over with Knock Off)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 407-480 (121.8 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 250-294 (65.1 - 76.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Notice how almost all of these are OHKOs, and the ones that aren't, the opposing Pokemon can't do much? I mean I just took all the walls from S to A- and Lando-I shits on them all after one CM boost. Not only that, but lets not forget that Lando's high speed also allows it to do well against offense, too. I mean while he can't run Psychic/Sludge Wave/Earth Power/Focus Blast/Knock Off all on one set, the fact that he has a move to basically destroy the entirety of Stall is pretty good, no? Basically, this thing offers amazing wallbreaking power that doesn't require a Mega Evolution or Stealth Rock to be off his side of the field at all times, making him S-Rank easy imo.
I also don't agree that Deo-S/Bisharp should drop (Though honestly I don't really care about Bisharp all that much), but I've already made posts about that so I'm not going to reiterate myself.
Sharpedo is also pretty relevant but it is uncommon as fuck and can't take any hit at all.
I agree. Lando-I surpasses Zard Y as a special wallbreaker with higher speed and lower predictability not to mention the ability to take out Chansey and Zard X.
Lando is also much more individually threatening than Bisharp, Aegislash and even Thundurus which most teams carry switch-ins to. I believe Bisharp and Aegislash in particular are given S rank due to their role in DeoSharp. Outside a DeoSharp team I would put them at A+ at best. Either way, Lando should be up there at S with them.
Zard Y shouldn't be at S. Sure, it has power, but 4x weakness to SR along with fragility, predictable sets and only 100 speed limit it's threat level. It's not too easy to switch in to but most teams carry a switch-in which are sometimes even offensive like Lati@s. Apart from that it's too easily revenge killed and sometimes switching out of the revenge killer either means a future death to SR or a defog/spin burden.
Zard X on the other hand, I would say deserves only an A- on the DD set alone, but definitely an S thanks to the bulky set.
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Neither can crawdaunt
Deoxys S and Bisharp shouldn't be S rank. Deoxys S is literally killed by anything that carries knock off or sucker punch, he's not even that solid as a revenge killer and as a Suicide lead he's horrible. Bisharp is a great threat to any team but he's easily manageable that even Deoxys D can kill him with superpower. While he hits hard especially with defiant, just because he's such a great part of HO doesn't mean he's an S rank Pokemon.
> A+ rank
> A+ rank
> A+ rank
> A+ rank even with so much that I support this guy, he's the BEST wallbreaker in the game but the metagame has adapted.
Don't see how a wallbreaker that's inferior to Zard Y should be in S if Zard Y drops, incredibly easy to counter, and while he has a good speed tier, Anything that carries an Ice move can kill it before Lando can kill back.
I don't agree with all of them, but you brought a valid point: the S-rank is inflated. Something needs to be downgraded.
I'd downgrade Bisharp and YZard, for start, and promote a better discussion on both Deoxys forms. I don't feel like they were discussed enough. Lando-I should stay, though.
No.
Aegislash is way beyond Deosharp. It was already S even before Deosharp became a thing. I personally think it is the best pokemon in the meta.
It has 150/150/150/150 stats. That can't be expressed enough. All for the cost of low speed, and a gimmick that's made easy to work with by its moveset (KS and Shadow Sneak). This is a pokemon who can spam some of the strongest attacks in the game, is very hard to switch into, can switch into things very easily, is a great revenge killer, does not fear fast pokemon, can break walls, can lower the stats of physical attacker with KS, can be a powerful sweeper... everything. And most of the time, the cost of the prediction is on the opponent, because they are dealing with something they can't easily kill, and who can cripple them in one turn and them finish off with shadow sneak. That's a pokemon who can easily be slapped into any team, offensive or otherwise, and become the MVP. There's reason why it's top 1 usage right now.
You've gotta admit though that Aegislash does have its fair share of problems. It's prone to giving away free turns because of how incredibly frail it is in its Blade Form, and it's weak to a number of common attacking types in the tier: Ground, Dark, Fire and Ghost. These common weaknesses and the Knock off buff do hinder its ability to be able to switch in to a lot of things nowadays. It's often not even seen on HO anymore because of how slow it is and the fact that it can't reliably spinblock against the only 2 spinners that are even used in OU; Excadrill and Mega Blastoise. Air Balloon doesn't totally fix the Excadrill problem because it can just Iron Head Aegislash as it switches in to pop the Balloon then smack it with an EQ, and the switch is always pretty obvious too. It also has quite a lot of dodgy match-ups against the other S and A level threats:
S Rank
Knock Off
Fire Blast
Knock Off
Mirror Coat
Earthquake and Flare Blitz
Earthpower
A+ Rank
Knock Off
Earthquake
Dark Pulse
Earthquake
2HKO'd by Specs Hydro Pump
Earthpower
Sucker Punch / Knock Off
Earthquake
Knock Off
Flare Blitz
Earthquake / Crunch
A Rank
Earthquake
Earthquake
Shadow Ball
Lava Plume
Earthquake
Earthquake
Foul Play / Knock Off
Will-O-Wisp
Can set-up
Earthquake
So I think calling it the best pokemon in the tier is a bit of a stretch. It's definitely a great pokemon, but the meta isn't giving him a free lunch by any means.
S Rank
A+ Rank
A Rank
So I think calling it the best pokemon in the tier is a bit of a stretch. It's definitely a great pokemon, but the meta isn't giving him a free lunch by any means.
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If you wrote that list for the charizards, deoxys, landorus and bisharp you would see that none of them manage to check the majority of the S-A tiers, and neither does any pokemon in the metagame. You cant judge its position by its ability to blanket-counter the entire meta, because if it could then it should be banned to ubers anyway
Maybe Im too low on the ladder but I was also under the impression that Aegislash was an enormous part of HO because of its ability to run a huge number of sets which are all incredibly difficult to deal with whilst also being able to switch into the majority of OU and therefore provides offensive pressure that is almost unrivalled. Maybe its being too objective to ask the question of who is the best pokemon in the first place, but I can't think of any other pokemon that could take that place over aegislash
Maybe Im too low on the ladder but I was also under the impression that Aegislash was an enormous part of HO because of its ability to run a huge number of sets which are all incredibly difficult to deal with whilst also being able to switch into the majority of OU and therefore provides offensive pressure that is almost unrivalled. Maybe its being too objective to ask the question of who is the best pokemon in the first place, but I can't think of any other pokemon that could take that place over aegislash
On the topic of Bisharp wether it should be S or A+ I'm not sure but I'm surprised AV Bisharp hasn't been mentioned at all, it makes switching into the Latis and Zapdos a lot safer and while it loses an offensive item and SD, it becomes a fairly solid pursuit trapper.
The main problem with Bisharp is that most teams pack a check/counter to it that can even beat it at +2 allowing the defogger to get defog off while it gets killed and then Quagsire/Keldeo/Conkeldurr/etc comes in and forces Bisharp out.
It also has severe 4mss, absolutely requiring Knock Off, Sucker Punch and Iron Head leaving only one slot open for Swords Dance/Pursuit/Low Kick/Low Sweep/Grass Knot/Rock Tomb/Psycho Cut although some of them are very situational they are sometimes required to beat a check/counter.
Ideally you'd go for Swords Dance bit even at +2 there's solid checks to Bisharp as it won't have any coverage moves (unless it got to +2 through Defiant), Pursuit is nice for trapping the Latis and Aegislash bit both are not without risks as the Latis are faster than Bisharp and can do a lot of damage to non AV sets and Aegislash isn't OHKOd by Pursuit in Shield Form and can OHKO back with Sacred Sword.
For beating stall teams Grass Knot might be the best option as its the only way to beat Quagsire which is often used as a safety net for Bisharp if Defogging is required.
Low Kick/Low Sweep is the only way to beat Mega Gyarados and let's you beat most other Bisharps 1on1.
Rock Tomb let's you beat ZardY, Talonflame and slow down ZardX.
Psycho Cut let's you beat Keldeo on the switch but doesn't have much use besides that.
Bisharp is just a huge threat that any team has to prepare for, but solid checks/counters are available so perhaps A+ suits it better.
Lando-I is in my mind undoubtedly S-Rank as its sheer power (pun intended) and unpredictability are defining traits for an S rank Pokemon.
ZardY I'm on the fence about, its definitely powerful but I feel that without the surprise factor of Zard having 2 mega evos it would be a lot less scary as ZardY certainly has more checks and is more predictable than ZardX.
The Deoxys forms both deserve S rank as they are basically the best revengekiller ( bar arguably Talonflame) and the best hazard setter while retaining (some) unpredictability as S can run screens/set rain/sr and has a deep movepool and D can essentially choose 2 support moves or even Superpower to beat Bisharp.
The main problem with Bisharp is that most teams pack a check/counter to it that can even beat it at +2 allowing the defogger to get defog off while it gets killed and then Quagsire/Keldeo/Conkeldurr/etc comes in and forces Bisharp out.
It also has severe 4mss, absolutely requiring Knock Off, Sucker Punch and Iron Head leaving only one slot open for Swords Dance/Pursuit/Low Kick/Low Sweep/Grass Knot/Rock Tomb/Psycho Cut although some of them are very situational they are sometimes required to beat a check/counter.
Ideally you'd go for Swords Dance bit even at +2 there's solid checks to Bisharp as it won't have any coverage moves (unless it got to +2 through Defiant), Pursuit is nice for trapping the Latis and Aegislash bit both are not without risks as the Latis are faster than Bisharp and can do a lot of damage to non AV sets and Aegislash isn't OHKOd by Pursuit in Shield Form and can OHKO back with Sacred Sword.
For beating stall teams Grass Knot might be the best option as its the only way to beat Quagsire which is often used as a safety net for Bisharp if Defogging is required.
Low Kick/Low Sweep is the only way to beat Mega Gyarados and let's you beat most other Bisharps 1on1.
Rock Tomb let's you beat ZardY, Talonflame and slow down ZardX.
Psycho Cut let's you beat Keldeo on the switch but doesn't have much use besides that.
Bisharp is just a huge threat that any team has to prepare for, but solid checks/counters are available so perhaps A+ suits it better.
Lando-I is in my mind undoubtedly S-Rank as its sheer power (pun intended) and unpredictability are defining traits for an S rank Pokemon.
ZardY I'm on the fence about, its definitely powerful but I feel that without the surprise factor of Zard having 2 mega evos it would be a lot less scary as ZardY certainly has more checks and is more predictable than ZardX.
The Deoxys forms both deserve S rank as they are basically the best revengekiller ( bar arguably Talonflame) and the best hazard setter while retaining (some) unpredictability as S can run screens/set rain/sr and has a deep movepool and D can essentially choose 2 support moves or even Superpower to beat Bisharp.
You've gotta admit though that Aegislash does have its fair share of problems. It's prone to giving away free turns because of how incredibly frail it is in its Blade Form, and it's weak to a number of common attacking types in the tier: Ground, Dark, Fire and Ghost. These common weaknesses and the Knock off buff do hinder its ability to be able to switch in to a lot of things nowadays. It's often not even seen on HO anymore because of how slow it is and the fact that it can't reliably spinblock against the only 2 spinners that are even used in OU; Excadrill and Mega Blastoise. Air Balloon doesn't totally fix the Excadrill problem because it can just Iron Head Aegislash as it switches in to pop the Balloon then smack it with an EQ, and the switch is always pretty obvious too. It also has quite a lot of dodgy match-ups against the other S and A level threats:
S Rank
Knock Off
Fire Blast
Knock Off
Mirror Coat
Earthquake and Flare Blitz
Earthpower
A+ Rank
Knock Off
Earthquake
Dark Pulse
Earthquake
2HKO'd by Specs Hydro Pump
Earthpower
Sucker Punch / Knock Off
Earthquake
Knock Off
Flare Blitz
Earthquake / Crunch
A Rank
Earthquake
Earthquake
Shadow Ball
Lava Plume
Earthquake
Earthquake
Foul Play / Knock Off
Will-O-Wisp
Can set-up
Earthquake
So I think calling it the best pokemon in the tier is a bit of a stretch. It's definitely a great pokemon, but the meta isn't giving him a free lunch by any means.
All the Knock Off's and Talonflame's Flare Blitz have to watch out for King's Shield aside from Bisharp's Knock Off. Deoxys Defense doesn't always have the space to run Mirror Coat and has to watch out for physical attacks. All the Earthquake's and Earth Power's you mentioned can be considered next to useless when Aegislash has an Air Balloon which is a common item for Aegislash. Rotom Wash's Will O Wisp isn't that much of a hinderance as you can still Shadow Ball. When you delete all the things I just mentioned the list gets alot smaller.
Also there is more in OU than just S A+ and A rank.
Sharpedo being retardedly frail and practically can't switch in on anything lmao so priority fucks him hard. Sharpedo also just doesn't do enough damage overall, and there are just better picks overall. Doesn't seem relevant IMO.
Alright. Answers in red. Calcs done using a 252 Atk, 252+ SpAtk set with Spell Tag, which is the one I use.
Almost all the pokemon you mentioned can beat Aegislash. More than half of them can also be beaten by Aegislash, and nearly all of them cannot safely switch into it. As a rule of thumb, Aegislash will generally survive any unboosted non-stab move, even if it's weak to it, because of the 150/150 defenses. And its Shadow Ball is perhaps the most spammable move in the metagame.
Aegislash puts enormous pressure on any team lacking Mandibuzz just by being on the field. And it's very easy to bring it to the field due to its great typing (with 3 immunities and lots of resists, including rock), and good defenses. It can turn losing battles into victories so easily it's not even funny. If there is one pokemon who does not belong anywhere but S, is Aegislash. It is the pokemon that defines this metagame.
PS: I'd like to say something to the person who programmed the Showdown Calculator. Kudos for making it and everything, but please do something about the moveset reseting every time you switch between sword and shield formes. It's a pain to write aegis moves over and over again for every match-up. I never want to do it again.
S Rank
Knock Off Agreed. Though it risks being KO'd by Sacred Sword on switch in, and doesn't enjoy switching into Shadow Ball either (unless with AV).
Fire Blast Yes, but it doesn't like switching into Shadow Ball and being subsequently KO'd by Shadow Sneak.
Knock Off Deals ridiculously low damage to Aegis, is OHKO'd by Shadow Ball, and finished off by SN is sashed. Nope.
Mirror Coat Fair, assuming it's not OHKO'd in the first place by Shadow Ball. But now your hazards setter is in KO range by anything before even getting to lay hazards.
Earthquake and Flare Blitz This one is tricky. EQ takes 60% tops, hates switching into Shadow Ball, risks being screwed by KS if it uses FB. Killed by Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak. Depends on prediction.
Earthpower Agreed, but again, can't switch into Shadow Ball without being crippled and killed by SN.
A+ Rank
Knock Off Screwed by KS unless it uses Belly Drum. But if it uses Belly Drum, it risks being crippled by Shadow Ball. And it's not hard to guess what set it is using. Also Knock Off does not KO it.
Earthquake Fair, but guess what: hates switching into Shadow Ball.
Dark Pulse Can't switch into anything without being crippled, though.
Earthquake Regular Gyarados hates taking a SB, Mega Gyarados hates taking a Sacred Sword. Also EQ does not KO it.
2HKO'd by Specs Hydro Pump Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak kills it first, and Specs Secret Sword gives Aegislash an easy switch in.
Earthpower Bulky Aegis can survive 2 EPs, offensive aegis can survive 1. KO'd with Sacred Sword or Iron Head + SN. Substitute Kyu-B can get the upper hand with good predictions, though.
Sucker Punch / Knock Off Fair, but again, that SB on the switch hurts, and so does KS.
Earthquake Aegis survives it. Then kills with SB + SN.
Knock Off This is getting repetitive. Does not KO, loses a ton of life to SB, though SB + SN is not enough to kill it. But beware of KS.
Flare Blitz This one has the advantage if it was WoW, but beware of KS. And do not try to switch in, for SB + SN will kill you.
Earthquake / Crunch EQ does not OHKO, Crunch risks hitting KS. Takes a ton of damage from Sacred Sword or Iron Head. Generally wins, but Aegis can cripple it and prevent its sweep.
A Rank
Earthquake Does not OHKO, though Multiscale protects it from the dreaded Shadow Ball. Fair.
Earthquake Fair, but beware of switching in.
Shadow Ball OHKO'd by Shadow Sneak. LOL
Lava Plume Good enough. But beware of Sacred Sword on the switch.
Earthquake Does not OHKO, does not like SB on the switch. But can heal, so fair enough.
Earthquake Good enough, but beware of SB on the switch.
Foul Play / Knock Off Best Aegislash counter ever. Though I've heard some horror stories about the sub-toxic set.
Will-O-Wisp Unless it's Swords Dance Aegis, you're probably giving it a free turn to maul you with SB.
Can set-up And then fails to OHKO at +3, while Aegis succeeds at 2HKO'ng with SB.
Earthquake Does not OHKO, but is KO'd by SS/IH + SN.
Almost all the pokemon you mentioned can beat Aegislash. More than half of them can also be beaten by Aegislash, and nearly all of them cannot safely switch into it. As a rule of thumb, Aegislash will generally survive any unboosted non-stab move, even if it's weak to it, because of the 150/150 defenses. And its Shadow Ball is perhaps the most spammable move in the metagame.
Aegislash puts enormous pressure on any team lacking Mandibuzz just by being on the field. And it's very easy to bring it to the field due to its great typing (with 3 immunities and lots of resists, including rock), and good defenses. It can turn losing battles into victories so easily it's not even funny. If there is one pokemon who does not belong anywhere but S, is Aegislash. It is the pokemon that defines this metagame.
PS: I'd like to say something to the person who programmed the Showdown Calculator. Kudos for making it and everything, but please do something about the moveset reseting every time you switch between sword and shield formes. It's a pain to write aegis moves over and over again for every match-up. I never want to do it again.
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Rotom-W is a utility>power mon, Ampharos vice versa. One of the big points of Mega Amph is his ability to check several pokemon at once that others can't. They both check Talonflame, but you wouldn't dare leave in Rotom against Zard-Y. You wouldn't leave Rotom in again't Mega Gyarados for fear of being demolished by Mold Breaker EQ, which Amph is bulky enough to survive fairly easily. Rotom loses to Breloom's Bullet Seed, whereas Ampharos fears nothing from the mushroom boxer.
He's not a sweeper like the S Rankers, or the majority of A rank. But neither is mega Venusaur, the best stall pokemon in existence. Sure, Amoonguss and Breloom exist, so why use Venusaur, which takes up your mega slot? Because it's the best at what it does. Mega Ampharos is the best at what it does.
Yeah, mega Venusaur is one of the best walls in the game. There are significant reasons to run mega Venusaur, and is almost a necessity on stall. There isn't as much opportunity cost because it's one of the best walls out there, and almost a necessity on stall teams. Having a good pivot is important, but a good pivot without recovery isn't exactly reliable, and the fact that you're using your mega on a pivot is why it should be lower tier as far as viability
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