People keep talking as if a BP nerf is guaranteed to happen, when to my knowledge nothing of the sort has been confirmed and it's possible that they wont, and to be honest, the existence of Full BP teams shouldn't really affect the viability of quick passing that much either. Venomoth now won't be much if any different to Venomoth in a hypothetical post BP-nerf meta. Venomoth was hardly ever seen even before BP entered the spotlight and I doubt that's going to change. It still has the same 'issues' as it always did.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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People keep talking as if a BP nerf is guaranteed to happen, when to my knowledge nothing of the sort has been confirmed and it's possible that they wont, and to be honest, the existence of Full BP teams shouldn't really affect the viability of quick passing that much either. Venomoth now won't be much if any different to Venomoth in a hypothetical post BP-nerf meta. Venomoth was hardly ever seen even before BP entered the spotlight and I doubt that's going to change. It still has the same 'issues' as it always did.
I'm pretty sure they're deciding between between banning the move, restricting it to 3 members, and restricting it to 4 members. Either decision would greatly affect Venomoth's viability. But I think to start, C- would fit.
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Can people please stop throwing around "outclassed" without even thinking? Venomoth is faster, bulkier (at that level it hardly counts, but it at least doesn't need Sash) has Sleep Powder which is only a slight downgrade from Spore, and can either have Wonder Skin as a hax shield against Prankster Taunt, or Tinted Lens so it can use its own boosts if need be (it's usually better off passing, but it can put some pressure on.) As a QuiverPasser, I'd say Smeargle is actually way, way worse than Venomoth.
It's not an amazing mon though, but is BL so has to be ranked.
It's not an amazing mon though, but is BL so has to be ranked.
Ok, well, this may seem a bit high, but I'm nominating Venomoth for B- Rank. Now before you call me crazy, hear me out. While QuiverPassing is cool and all, Venomoth should be running a Tinted Lens attacker set to be truly effective, just to show a cool calc:
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 211-247 (65.1 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I know it's in Blade form, but Tinted Lens lets it beat something that 4x resists it. It 3HKOes Heatran at +2 for christ's sake:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 112-133 (29 - 34.4%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
The issue with Venomoth is that it does have poor bulk, and has major 4MSS. It needs Bug Buzz and Quiver Dance, then you have to pick from Roost, Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder, Substitute, Baton Pass, and Energy Ball. I prefer running Quiver Dance / Sleep Powder / Bug Buzz / Substitute, as this set allows it to put something to Sleep, then set up a sub as the opponent stays in helpless or switches, by then you can set up Quiver Dance as your sub is broken (or if it isn't set up two and then another sub!). But this thing is certainly scary, and is a threat if your team comes unprepared. It jumped from NU to OU which is really fucking crazy u.u. Overall, Venomoth lacks bulk, room to set up (some times), and a large movepool, but after a Quiver Dance it can sweep or quickpass!
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 211-247 (65.1 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I know it's in Blade form, but Tinted Lens lets it beat something that 4x resists it. It 3HKOes Heatran at +2 for christ's sake:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 112-133 (29 - 34.4%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
The issue with Venomoth is that it does have poor bulk, and has major 4MSS. It needs Bug Buzz and Quiver Dance, then you have to pick from Roost, Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder, Substitute, Baton Pass, and Energy Ball. I prefer running Quiver Dance / Sleep Powder / Bug Buzz / Substitute, as this set allows it to put something to Sleep, then set up a sub as the opponent stays in helpless or switches, by then you can set up Quiver Dance as your sub is broken (or if it isn't set up two and then another sub!). But this thing is certainly scary, and is a threat if your team comes unprepared. It jumped from NU to OU which is really fucking crazy u.u. Overall, Venomoth lacks bulk, room to set up (some times), and a large movepool, but after a Quiver Dance it can sweep or quickpass!
except it doesn't. it 2x resists it
Ghost resists Bug, as does Steel, so it's 4x.
"Tinted Lens doubles the power of any moves that the Pokémon uses that are "not very effective" against its targets. If a move is regularly not very effective, and thus normally does half damage, it would therefore do normal damage, while a doubly-resisted move (such as a Bug-type move against the Steel/Flying Skarmory) will do half damage rather than one quarter damage."
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Tinted_Lens_(Ability)
This thing got rejected for a reason. It's completely niche outside of Baton Passing and using Smeargle / Gorebyss is much more effective because they give more abundant boosts in +2 / +2. Venomoth is too frail to set up reliably and with priority with all over the place (most which 2HKO it and Brave Bird / Quick Attack OHKO it). On top of that, you are wasting a team slot in which Smeargle can also do in addition to crippling something with Spore / Dark Void, can use SR, Spikes, or Sticky Web. It can also use Shell Smash which is infinitely better. Gorebyss can sweep with Hydro Pump + Ice Beam too making it not completely useless and Baton Pass to something it can't beat like Azumarill.
Tinted Lens attacker is crap. Volcarona is infinitely better which has Fiery Dance and is much bulkier. Sorry, it's not worth it and it should be removed from this viability ranking thread. If you want more elaborating on this, you can see this thread. I've used this set and the Baton Pass set. They are horrible and terribly outclassed. Don't use it and remove this thing.
EDIT: D Rank this junk then Delibird is Amazing
it is bl so it has to ranked
I know what Tinted Lens does, but did you even read what I said?
Tinted Lens lets it beat something that 4x resists it.
Notice how I say how Tinted Lens lets it muscle through something with a 4x resistance, I know it makes it only two.
woops I'm dumb. sorry
Chansey definitely has more than one viable set; it's capable of running a full cleric set (Wish/Protect/Heal Bell/Seismic Toss or Toxic), a half cleric set (Both Seismic Toss and Toxic with Wish/Protect OR Heal Bell/Softboiled), A Counter-based set (which is viable for taking on physical attackers lacking knock off- to put it in persepctive, Chansey can live a banded Scizor's Superpower at full health), and a Stealth Rocks set, all of which are quite viable. I consider ChestoRest just a variant of the physically defensive set, and Specs is frankly outclassed in this meta.
Sure Mega-Manetric is predictable. It's also not vying for A+ tier, so it's really quite irrelevant to this conversation.
Mega-Pinsir is more interesting. To be honest, I find mega-Pinsir less predictable than Rotom-W, not because it has more sets- with it's whopping 1- but how it plays. Late game, Mega-Pinsir can practically force a prediction war by itself threatening to either not mega evolve and get a moxie boost with quick attack or mega evolve and get a swords dance up on the switch. It plays unpredictably. Rotom-W, on the other hand, usually plays like a pivot; it's designed to *decrease* prediction for bulky offense and balanced teams by providing "slow" Volt Switches to scout for opponent's switches.
I might have exaggerated a little bit with saying that it's the "least" predictable pokemon in the current meta, but you have to agree that unpredictability is far from an asset of Rotom-W's.
I would like to apoligize for underestimating Mega T-Tar...the thing is a beast and can clean up late game more often than not. I started running the Max HP/SPeed build that someone suggested, and it's great for being able to take even un-stabbed SE hits and set up. Another thing is that due to his insane power, many times you don't even need to set up and can take advantage of your opponent by directly attacking and causing damage. I really underestimated t-tar, the only thing bad about him are his common weakness to water/fighting/ground, which can usually be played around with a supporting team.
As to Venomoth, I've been using a bulky QD/BP set recently and it can usually pull off a sleep powder due to his good speed, which is higher than smeargle's, and then take advantage of the switch by Quiver Dancing and Baton passing out. However I haven't really been able to pull of more than one of these in a game, which kind of sucks. After he's been damaged which is pretty easy to do, he kind of becomes death fodder later. If you can build a team with maybe two receivers with excellent coverage, then I can see him being worth a slot, but I'm not really sure that he should be ranked any higher than C or so, but I could be wrong. The competition with smeargle/gorebyss kind of hurts him and I'm not sure how that should play out...Bulky venomoth has decent bulk to be able to take a neutral hit, whereas smeargle most always has to rely on being taken down to sash, although that does guarantee him being able to survive a hit. Moth can also run Sash, but on a bulkier build black sludge could be viable. Moth also has a Stealth rock weakness that neither gorebyss or smeagle have. Also, Venomoth's Wonder Skin ability is actually pretty nifty for avoiding taunts, thunder waves, roars and the like :>
Also, has anyone been using Porygon 2 lately? He's sitting in C atm, but I could see him being ranked a bit higher with his excellent bulk, trace, bolt beam coverage, and being able to toxic stall with reliable recovery. The knock off buff hurts him but, like chansey, it's easy to avoid most of the time. Here's a great post by Ajwf on the first page that got lots of support, with relevant calcs - #23
(sorry if i've got anything wrong, I've been following this discussion for a while but haven't posted here too much :)
As to Venomoth, I've been using a bulky QD/BP set recently and it can usually pull off a sleep powder due to his good speed, which is higher than smeargle's, and then take advantage of the switch by Quiver Dancing and Baton passing out. However I haven't really been able to pull of more than one of these in a game, which kind of sucks. After he's been damaged which is pretty easy to do, he kind of becomes death fodder later. If you can build a team with maybe two receivers with excellent coverage, then I can see him being worth a slot, but I'm not really sure that he should be ranked any higher than C or so, but I could be wrong. The competition with smeargle/gorebyss kind of hurts him and I'm not sure how that should play out...Bulky venomoth has decent bulk to be able to take a neutral hit, whereas smeargle most always has to rely on being taken down to sash, although that does guarantee him being able to survive a hit. Moth can also run Sash, but on a bulkier build black sludge could be viable. Moth also has a Stealth rock weakness that neither gorebyss or smeagle have. Also, Venomoth's Wonder Skin ability is actually pretty nifty for avoiding taunts, thunder waves, roars and the like :>
Also, has anyone been using Porygon 2 lately? He's sitting in C atm, but I could see him being ranked a bit higher with his excellent bulk, trace, bolt beam coverage, and being able to toxic stall with reliable recovery. The knock off buff hurts him but, like chansey, it's easy to avoid most of the time. Here's a great post by Ajwf on the first page that got lots of support, with relevant calcs - #23
(sorry if i've got anything wrong, I've been following this discussion for a while but haven't posted here too much :)
Hell yea I've been using Porygon 2 lately. When a Close Combat from Mega-Pinsir did about 43%, making it easy to KO with ice beam, it was a keeper on the team I was using. A physically invested Porygon 2 will take just about anything and is also bulky af on the special side. The only threats are knock off and very strong fighting moves. So basically Porygon-2 likes to be on the same team as fairy types. Definitely deserving of a higher rank.
Edit: Just realized Mega-Venusar makes a great partner to this guy too!
Edit 2: I'd like to see Kyurem-B break this thing...
200+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 133-157 (35.5 - 41.9%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 175-208 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 204-240 (54.5 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Kyurem-B can also win with Substitute stalling...
So Porygon-2 can take any of Kyurem's wall-breaking set attacks, and in the long run, according to Ajwf will win. Taking about half damage from a surprise Outrage isn't that bad considering you just switch to your steel. Now that you know the Kyurem-b is outrage with choice band/life orb you can probably just confidently switch in your steel for the rest of the game too.
yea against sub kyube and life orb/band it's better switching out, but it can far better against a physical scarf set, as outrage does max 42% to 252/252+def p2.
against landorus it's a similar boat as focus blast does max 70% to max Def p2, also knock off, so p2 can't counter but can check as ice beam OHKO's
these are two of the most powerful wallbreakers in the tier, so...yea there's not a whoolle lot that can really stand up to them haha
but, p2 can wall m-pinsir w/o boosts, talonflame, lots of other physical attackers, greninja - also tracing protean to power up attacks, and can come in on so many others to either provide chip damage or toxic stall while recovering off the damage. He's a bit tricky in some situations cuz you don't want char x to set up on him, altho he can toxic stall a bit vs bulky char x...altho that's probly not the best situation..against heatran he traces flash fire so usually heatran can't do much but p2 can't do anything back to him lol. Tracing natural cure vs chancy is nice to relieve status if you don't have heal bell. Trace is a bit more usefull on him than others imo cuz he's bulky enough to abuse certain situations. Walls poison heal gliscor, can trace prankster from thundy I for fast recovery and status, while hitting him with ice beam
fares decently against Azu, if it's choice locked into anything besides superpower etc etc, can't take a +6 Play Rough so there's that, but against other variants he can come in and lay down a discharge or toxic if you're lucky :>
can take on garchomp, scarf lando-t/w/o knockoff, lati@s as LO Draco Meteor doesn't 2hko, physDef doesn't avoid the 2hko from Keldeo Secret Sword but spD can take on choice locked hydro pumps. There's probably a few others but imo porygon is a utility wall who is able to sponge lots of hits and provide chip damage/toxic which is great on like a stall/semi stall team lacking chansey. He's not quite as fat as chansey but has great all around bulk, bulkier than Clef, and provides pretty good utility. Also can hurt skarmory with discharge/walls mamoswine, normal tyranitar, hippo, gengar, dragonite, excadrill just as a few others from the A ranks
Notice, I'm not advocating for A rank or anything, just a possible bump to C+ for now (I'm not quite sure if he fits the B rank description, where he would be B-...would need more feedback on that. He faces competition from Chansey, Clef, Sylveon, as all around walls, tho he provides a bit more flare than chansey with his damaging attacks and good mixed bulk, is bulkier than clef but lacks unaware/magic guard great abilities, physDef is much bulkier than Sylveon but p2 lacks the sexy fairy typing and wish/heal bell, so he's not really in the cleric category...would be more comparable to Hippo/Ferro/Gliscor/Mandibuzz/Slowbro/Chesnaught in that department.) I guess if he would move up it would be a decision between C+/B- ---if you were to compare between guys like Goodra/Sableeye/Klefki who are in C+ as to Rhyperior/M-Absol in B-....altho someone lately said that it's not so much about the comparison between mons but how they fit the descriptions and fare overall in the metagame.
In C rank, definition is "crippling flaws / completely eclipsed" --main flaws of p2 are knock of and normal typing. Bulk is great, being a wall with good covege is great, and trace is actually usefull as he can stick around longer than say reg. guardy or whatever. Also MegaZam with trace has been talked of recently as being very usefull as well.
"completely eclipsed" is basically competition between p2 and chansey, both normal walls w/eviolite...Chasney is cleric w/ wish support and paralysis/toxic support, very fat...p2 has the bolt beam attacks so often he can provide more damage than chansey seismic toss, main niche is abusing trace ....i guess by this reasoning p2 is almost outclassed by chansey but has the niche of being more offensive, physically bulkier, and trace, not sure how the overall bulk between the two measures out. If we were to go solely by this then p2 probably fits C rank well and imo is a candidate for C+ as he can perform very well, but has lots of competition from other bulky mons with utility.
verry very sorry for rambling on, i tend to get caught in a stream of thoughts
anyway tl;dr p2 for C+
super gourgeist is called gourgeist xl because small and super both start with the same letter
I mean, I said this literal months ago but no avail. P2 is the most underrated wall and probably ranks in the top 5. The only issue being the redundant typing with chansey, who is probably number 2.
(Imo the top 10: MVenu 1, Chansey 2, Sylveon 3, Skarmory 4, P2 5, Heatran 6, Chesnuaght 7, Quag 8 (too many bulk flaws), CharX 9, Clef 10).
Of course that's a subjective 10, but Venu/Chansey are obvious locks. Sylveon is the only other cleric I'd consider unless I was insanely weak to some setup sweeper Clef handled. Skarm takes Pinsir, which a few months ago would've made him #2 but meh. P2 does everything listed above. Second most versatility on the list, behind MVenu. Heatran is falling because a lot of EQ exists for Aegi and ZardX. Ches is rising because it resists that + gets TTar, Gyara mega and the more ferocious bulky DDancers not named ZardX. Quag obviously deserves mention, has bulk issues. CharX is underused, but is rock weak, sacrifices Venu and faces competition from heatran (doesn't handle mawile as well). Lastly... Clef is actually shit, but is a necessary evil for that unaware vs Manaphy sets. Better semi-stall CM Unaware but whatever works.
tl;dr, P2's easy top 5 best stall mons we can use... I'd like to see it represented as such. Obviously Zard, Heatran, Clef have uses outside of stall but I'd argue P2 could easily be as invaluable.
I would like to see some calcs of porygon2 taking hits from a +1 charizard x, I know I've been going on about how good of a dragon dancer he is but I do want to see how much damage can be done with a flare blitz.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 222-262 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Here you go:)
Jesus Christ that thing is bulky as hell, how about in the sun? I would but I'm on crappy mobile phone.
yea I'm probably underselling him a bit at C+, I've just found him to be a real tough, useful son of a bitch so B- would be great too, probably as or more usefull as any of the mons in that rank atm for stall teams
heres a spD build v Char Y
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 157-186 (41.9 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO :o
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