There's also the fact that only Scolipede suffers from option 3 because Espeon is shit outside of full BP, Ninjask sucks, and Absol never runs BP on any serious set. Even then, Scolipede is viable outside of quickpassing.
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XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]
- Thread starter haunter
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I'm just failing to see any good advantage option 3 has over option 2, unless you think 3-mon BP is still broken (which it probably isn't as even 6-mon BP is debatable) why would you choose the complex ban that has drawbacks (even if they are not that big, since as Karxrida said Scolipede is the only viable BP mon outside of BP anyway) over the also complex ban which has no drawbacks whatsoever other than killing a playstyle that will be dead with either choice as in fact 3-mon BP is actually much more viable than non-Magic Bounce and non-Speed Boost BP, so while I can understand the logic of Smogon not caring about drawbacks as long as the game gets balanced (I.E banning Blaziken instead of Speed Boost Blaziken) I can only vow for this logic when it is a simple ban versus a complex ban, not when we are talking about 2 complex bans.
I can answer that one for you. Myself, and most other serious advocates of option 3, believe that scolipede's ability to pass speed and defense to be broken. Speed alone is not broken, because priority exists and can take out most speed boosted mons. However, all relevant priority is physical, and after +2 or +4 defense, even super effective priority will struggle to deal meaningful damage. The combination of speed and priority makes a mon almost unrevengable. If you pass this to one of any number of sweepers that are dangerous after a single turn of setup (and trust me, there are plenty), they will find their single turn of setup and proceed to one shot the entire tier without giving the opponent a single chance to retaliate. Not helping matters at all is the fact that scolipede is capable of setting up in front of nearly any physical mon in the tier without any fear what so ever.
TL;DR Advocates of option 3 believe scolipede to be broken, and that option 3 is the only one that addresses it.
A couple of replays for your convenience
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-125376926
got outplayed all game long, then got a lucky ohko with scoli which allowed me to setup exca for a sweep
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-125531059
just to show that scoli > mindless fly spam
After experiences on the ladder with teams such as yours, I have begun to reconsider option 3. I was heavy option 2 from the start, but short Scoli chains have proven to be rather dangerous on their own. I am now beginning to lean slightly toward option 3, although would be quite happy with either. I'll await more discussion and perhaps ladder more before voting occurs so I can be sure which to vote for.
Let me just start off by saying that in no way am I saying that those replays and that general idea of a short BP chain is not good or possibly problematic. I am, however, saying that what the shorter chains are capable of doing to a game is in now way comparable to the standard BP chain. Looking at the replays, the first thing I want to say is congrats on winning those, the deck was stacked against you quite a bit. After that, I would like to note how much easier it is to counter the BP portion of the team, which I am assuming is Scolipede, Espeon and possibly Togekiss. Between the two/three of them, they don't exactly have amazing synergy in terms of taking attacks for one another, especially without accumulated defensive boosts.
More importantly though, I find the fact that some part of the chain may have to pass boosts to a dead-end otherwise else risk getting KOed to be the most important difference between the two chains. With a full Baton Pass team, you can just pass over to someone who can soak up an attack, set up while the opponent switches and then pass again if necessary, never really slowing down your momentum. On top of that, with 6 Pokemon in the chain, you have many more ways to accumulate the necessary boosts. On the other hand, with a three-Pokemon chain, you have fewer ways to accumulate boosts that can be passed on while also being faced with more ways to slow down your momentum. Obviously, the momentum isn't lost because you will be passing boosts that can be utilized, possibly built on, but just not passed. Although this seems to be irrelevant in the face of some Pokemon with a +12, it actually opens up more options to get rid of those boosts. Without defensive boosts, which will be more difficult to build up (although Iron Defense Scolipede is still going to be annoyingly efficient), having your opponent survive an attack will potentially be much more devastating than it would be in a standard BP team. On top of that, phazing will be easier to pull off, especially/primarily late game, when the boosts reside at a dead end. Unaware users now have much more value with Espeon being out of the question if the boosts have been forced onto a Pokemon outside of the chain.
Essentially, what I am trying to say is that having fewer Baton Pass Pokemon are much more manageable because there are fewer ways to accumulate boosts. On top of that, the defensive synergy within the chain itself is far less solid than in a standard chain. This makes it much easier to force the boosts to a dead-end Pokemon, which then allow for phazers/Unaware users/anything that isn't getting OHKOed to have a window of opportunity that can be utilized. Obviously the number of counters isn't vastly greater, but the fact that the person facing the BP team isn't simply helplessly watching boosts build up and instead can apply pressure to force the opponent to cut off their momentum building prematurely makes it much easier/possible to play against without counter teaming.
I am completely open to any arguments in favor of option 3, especially since those replays raised my eyebrows. As of now though, it seems like option 2 sufficiently turns the battle back into an interaction between two people rather than one person stacking boosts while the other guy watches.
Then if that's the case, then shouldn't Scolipede be banned instead of putting in a complex ban?
scolipede alone isn't anywhere near broken, and it has a viable set outside of quickpass(based cleaner scolipede)
so banning scolipede has major collateral damage, which we want to minimize as much as possible.
How is banning 1 Pokemon worse than letting any non-HO teams die?
Absolutely, and collateral damage or his other sets not being broken has nothing to do with it
The problem is that Scolipede isn't the broken element, it's his speed and defense boosts, as well as special boosts picked up on the way to your final sweeper.
If Scolipede were banned, I personally think baton pass would no longer be an issue, but Scolipede isn't the root of the problem.
We can choose option two, which pretty much knocks it down to a reasonable number for any team.
and btw banning scolipede is NOT an option listed, so even if I did want to ban scolipede, I couldn't vote on it anyway.
Like, don't get me wrong, I love Scolipede, but if he's the broken element he should get banned, regardless of "collateral damage" and shit
But after all the discussions in both this thread and the previous thread, nobody's convinced me that he's broken. It seems the OU council isn't convinced either, as banning him isn't one of the options on how to deal with this.
So all the talk about how "Option 3 is the only solution because Scolipede is broken" is a shit argument, guys. What's your proof?
But after all the discussions in both this thread and the previous thread, nobody's convinced me that he's broken. It seems the OU council isn't convinced either, as banning him isn't one of the options on how to deal with this.
So all the talk about how "Option 3 is the only solution because Scolipede is broken" is a shit argument, guys. What's your proof?
I think the option number 3 refers to that when together, scolipede AND espeon are broken, so just remove what makes the broken in conjuction, which is BP
what most people think is that its banning them individually, it isn't , at least judging from what I have read
Option 3 removes the 2 biggest thorns in everyone's sides. All you need is Espeon, Scolipede, and Sylveon to be successful. Option 3 removes them from being together. Sounds beautiful to me.
Derpinator Ty for the compliment, but you obviously have not seen many of my replays or have faced me on the ladder, because neither togekiss nor espeon have BP. Scolipede is the only one with BP on my team. I dare you to find a replay of me on the OU suspect ladder where my espeon used BP. The point is not to have an unbreakable chain, the point is to have an unrevengable sweeper ASAP. If that fails, just have scoli do it again, because he has the psudo bulk to do so most of the time (granted, not after setting up in the face of CB rapter, but the fact he can do that period is darn impressive, not many mons can boast that). Feel free to search for my replays on the replay server or look at the ones I posted on page 2-3.
the-bumper-car I sympathize with your concern about my roundabout way of doing things. Trust me, if the ban of iron-defense scolipede or even scolipede altogether were a hypothetical 4th option, I would have been advocating for that with the same zeal I am advocating for option 3 now. That being said, Haunter has made it darn clear that the only options on the table are the three in the OP. The first 2 options do not deal with the brokenness that is scolipede. Option 3 is the only one that does so. I think it would be premature to choose option 2 when the current BP chains rely so heavily on a totally broken mon (and I do sincerely believe that iron defense scoli is broken).
the-bumper-car I sympathize with your concern about my roundabout way of doing things. Trust me, if the ban of iron-defense scolipede or even scolipede altogether were a hypothetical 4th option, I would have been advocating for that with the same zeal I am advocating for option 3 now. That being said, Haunter has made it darn clear that the only options on the table are the three in the OP. The first 2 options do not deal with the brokenness that is scolipede. Option 3 is the only one that does so. I think it would be premature to choose option 2 when the current BP chains rely so heavily on a totally broken mon (and I do sincerely believe that iron defense scoli is broken).
In that case, I hardly see how those replays are relevant. Showing that Scolipede can pass Speed and Defense boosts to allow something else to set up tells us nothing about Baton Pass chains for a reasons you already stated. This setup doesn't form an unbreakable chain. The counters are much more plentiful and aren't as obscure. Phazers have a much easier job and Taunt will be much more effective, just to name off a few notable differences since I am short on time. Essentially, the fact that it is possible to take out the boosted Pokemon makes it clear that the opponent is not at a huge disadvantage right off the bat. You can setup again but I highly doubt it will be easy to build the same momentum as easily.
Because banning Scolipede wouldn't even stop those non-HO teams from 'dying'. Without Scolipede, a team of Zapdos, Mew, Vaporeon, Sylveon, Espeon and Smeargle would still wreck those teams, because it wasn't Scolipede that was giving those teams the issues in the first place, it was Espeon. As far as those teams are concerned, Scoli is mostly just another generic defense and speed passer who serves no dynamic obstruction to countering the team. Espeon being a universal counter to any status moves in the form of taunts and phazing is the main thing trolling those teams and reducing their viability.
Of course, we never get to see any replays of your team getting beaten. Your record is 153 wins and 120 losses using this type of team; that's almost bad by Showdown standards and doesn't speak much about how 'broken' quick pass ID Scoli is. I've used teams with him on it and it's not broken, it's just good and can work well. Heaven forbid quick passing a defense boost ever became a viable thing, right?
Not wanting to be mean, WebBrowser, but you're likely not even going to get reqs with that alt, since your GXE is below 67.5. I wouldn't say your team is that effective.
As a matter of fact, I battled it one or two days ago (my alt is Sniper Sogeking). You attempted to quick-pass a few times with Scolipede in the match. All of them got revenged. In one of them I used your Scolipede as setup fodder to my Gyarados, which allowed me to break your Excadrill and then easily revenge kill it. Your quick-pass team just lacks the crazy defensive power that the standard bp chain has. Again, not saying that you are a bad player, but your single-mon bp team is far from broken. Yes, Scolipede has the potential to make a pokemon very dangerous, but that is easy to stop, predictable and not very hard to revenge kill.
As a matter of fact, I battled it one or two days ago (my alt is Sniper Sogeking). You attempted to quick-pass a few times with Scolipede in the match. All of them got revenged. In one of them I used your Scolipede as setup fodder to my Gyarados, which allowed me to break your Excadrill and then easily revenge kill it. Your quick-pass team just lacks the crazy defensive power that the standard bp chain has. Again, not saying that you are a bad player, but your single-mon bp team is far from broken. Yes, Scolipede has the potential to make a pokemon very dangerous, but that is easy to stop, predictable and not very hard to revenge kill.
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Basically, the replays are relevant because it shows that scolipede can setup on a ridiculous number of mons and frequently have enough HP to do so again. Taunters are worthless because the only thing worth taunting most of the time is scolipede, everyone else on my team is actually rather threatening even without boosts and with their defense can often live out the taunt, allowing them to setup. Phasers might work, but most phasers are total setup bait for espeon, esp with morning sun. Even without espeon, the phasers are gonna get hit hard while they are trying to phase anything but scolipede.
jbtc10 , Ninja Charizard Yeah, I know my w/l ratio is bad. It's mostly due to my inexperience and misplays, not to mention that the ladder really is stupidly prepared for scolipede atm. It is worth noting that full BP chains are also doing rather poorly on the suspect ladder, and yet relatively few people are arguing that they shouldn't be nerfed as a result.
I think you are missing the point here, option 3 bans both Magic Bounce Espeon with Baton Pass in his moveset and Speed Boost Scolipede with Baton Pass (and also their less effective replacements MAbsol and Ninjask) it is not a Speed Boost+Magic Bounce + BP ban it is both a Magic Bounce + BP ban and a Speed Boost + BP ban, if it was only removing them from being togheter I would also vow for this option but the way it is now this option has a much bigger drawback than option 2.
However if you think Baton Pass Scolipede/Espeon or 3-mon BP is broken you should be voting option 3 for sure, my other post was more because I'm seeing some people choosing option 3 because they are not understanding the drawbacks this option has.
"Ban the combination of the move Baton Pass in conjunction with the ability Magic Bounce and the ability Speed Boost"
I suppose it can be interpreted differently, but I see this as BP + Magic Bounce + Speed Boost, not BP + Speed boost and BP + Magic Bounce.
I know that this is really late to be saying this, but that really should've been edited into the OP.
Whatever, thanks for the reminder anyway, I was confused too (still going for option 3).
In that case, I think option 3 goes a bit too far in terms of nerfing it, seems to kill it off entirely. Speed Boost and Magic Bounce, the latter more than the former, are integral parts of Baton Pass teams and I can hardly imagine a functioning without Magic Bounce specifically. Speed Boost maybe is compromisable but it most certainly does help propel the momentum quite a bit. I highly doubt Baton Pass even stand a ghost of a chance if option 3 comes to pass. With option 2, you can at least run mini chains that still can stand their ground but are much easier to push back. However, I suppose it boils down to how prepared you think people should be for Baton Pass in general. I can see great arguments as to why Scolipede alone is entirely problematic seeing how it can, usually with ease, just go ahead and give some Pokemon an easy +2 by stalling a few turns.
I'm just a little confused, do you support option 2 for the chains or option 3 with the espeon ban?
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