Mach Punch/Bullet Seed/Rock Tomb/Spore Breloom with either sash or life orb is basically the best offensive set imo (no comment on poison heal, haven't used it)
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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It comes in after one of your Pokemon faints. It's a revenge killer. And when it gets in, stuff will die. It is one of the fastest relevant Pokemon in the tier, and it can revenge kill most offense threats that either don't resist any of its stabs, or isn't a special wall.
I was sorta talking about how zap is bad as a defoggers, its an ok mon in general.
It hardly even checks mega pinsir after rocks, for one:
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Zapdos: 219-258 (57 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
almost any prior damage and that thing is done after rocks, which as i've previously said, it isn't great at doing.
mega scizor i agree its a good check
Conk is meh, it can just alternate between ice punch and drain punch and predict correctly. You're winning the matchup, but its a pretty bad check especially when sets other than av exist.
Breloom ha:
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Zapdos: 229-270 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And yes rock tomb is VERY common on breloom. Idk if you've been playing ou or something lol.
Beating mandibuzz aint' exactly anything to write home about, practically anything with justified beats mandi lol.
And yes, it does lose to hippo, as the most common and best set for zapdos is tbolt/heat wave/defog/roost. Hippo can actually choose what it wants to run in the last slot, between whirlwind, toxic, or a rock move (rock slide/stone edge)
Without heat wave, scizor can actually set up on it, and the only rock setter it even checks w/out heat wave is skarm which almost never sets them in the first place. Tbolt is mandatory stab, roost is mandatory recovery, and idk why you're using zapdos if you already have a defogger lol.
Aight first off, sludge wave is pretty sub par. Its main targets are lati@s, and knock off is rapidly gaining popularity to hit those harder. So yes, for all intents and purposes, we check landorus.
and rock slide is FAR from popular.
Secondly, i'm referring to the wisp set when i say it checks landorus well, which runs 116 hp evs (according to Monte Cristo anyway). So you can go calc that and see taht you avoid a 2hko from psychic, which is all that really matters.
Third, sorry for any misinterpretation behind the whole burning char-x part, they way you put it just sounded like to me that you were downplaying burning as a whole just because one physical threat can't be burned.
In the same manner, you make it seem like being char-x set up fodder condemns you from Ou or something. Mega Venu is practically set up fodder for bulky char-x as well, and by no means is that bad, nor does it make it too bad. Just pair char-y with a hippo or a quag or something. checking your counters goes for any mon, so don't pull the excessive support argument on me lol.
Keep in mind that this is band, which is getting rarer thanks to the popularity of BD and AV, and you have to predict correctly to actually nail the mon. Also, you barely even 2hko skarm WITH rocks, and from there it can just use counter and kill you.
yeah sub eases sucker punch shenanigans, but without SD you're not strong enough to sweep offense.
Also sub doesn't really "block" wisp, this is assuming that the opponent will leave your sub intact and switch directly into their burner, which, unless its tran, generally isn't a great idea anyway. And most relevant burners are faster than mawile (gengar, gourgeist-s, tran, rotom-w, charizard-x/y)
And are you seriously running mega mawile without sucker punch. Please tell me that was a joke.
Every azu that isn't bd runs max hp bud, or something very close to it :I
Are you telling me that all of char-x's sets aren't just ones with a tad of variation? Offensive DD and Bulky DD are just changing evs, and bulky DD and Bulky wisp is more or less just a change of moves. Sure, its a little more versatile, but char-x too mainly falls under sweeper or burner, much like char-y falls under wallbreaker or burner.
Thanks for being respectful bout these posts though, some people on here don't handle opposing arguments as gracefully haha.
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I usually see the sash leads with SD instead if Rock Tomb. But I never really use anything that's weak to Rocks like T-flame or Pinsir, so I'm sure a lot of Breloom have Rock Tomb and they just never use it when I face them.
Anyway, Zapdos is way faster than Breloom and doesn't require much investment to outspeed it.
RT lowers speed, meaning that Zapdos cannot switch into Breloom. At best, Zapdos can check it if Breloom's Sash is broken. If it isn't, Breloom either 2HKOs or puts Zapdos to sleep.
I run T-Bolt/Heat Wave/Toxic/Roost. I prefer Rapid Spin to Defog most of the time, and Zapdos is fine without Defog.
I've even seen the old SubToxic Zapdos recently, but that's not as effective anymore.
Anyway why are we still talking about Zapdos isn't it staying where it is anyway
Here's the thing:
The decent spinners atm, Exca (and starmie (don't you dare say tenta)) are more or less only fit for HO. That leaves defog to balanced, bulky offense, and stall teams, where defog zapdos is usually found and better used.
Zapdos on HO, where spinners will be best used, just doesn't work well at all.
Zapdos is one of the more decent defoggers you can even use on bulkier teams anyway :/ there simply are not a lot of options for defogging and zapdos's typing is very attractive.
A non-Timid Zapdos needs to run 16 Speed EVs to outpace Adamant Breloom or 108 to beat Jolly and successfully check when Sash is gone, while Timid (is Offensive Zapdos a thing?) will always outspeed.
Rock Tomb lowers Speed, if it switches into Rock Tomb, Zapdos is slower the following turn.
You missed the part where I said "check".
I agree with Zapdos and Scolipede staying where they are, and with Mr. Mime getting removed, but the others I think shouldn't be treated as harshly (except Smeargle). Smeargle should probably go down to C, since while smashpass and sticky web still make it kind of viable, for the most part it's outclassed by Shuckle as a Sticky Web user and you'll rarely ever need or consider smashpass, although Smeargle is probably the most decent Pokemon for it. It also feel that Smeargle will now be just as niche as Pokemon like Blissey or Magnezone, who are only ever used at very situational times.
Vaporeon should move up to C- IMO. It and Alomomola (who should probably also be in C-) are both viable choices for wishpassers (although they're outclassed by Sylveon and Chansey, they both have their uses, and that's why they're in C- rank and not A), while Alomomola can use Mirror Coat to be a situational check to special attackers and has Knock Off, Vaporeon has a much higher special attack and can phaze set-up sweepers out. I don't think it's that much more worse than Cresselia or Hawlucha of all things.
Espeon should move up to C. I've been using it recently to set up screens and it's pretty good. While it may seem outclassed by Deoxys-S, it has a few boons over it that should be considered. Unlike Deoxys-S, Espeon has Magic Bounce, which not only means that hazards will be off your side of the field for the first part of the game (which can be important, because otherwise your Pokemon could get worn down, especially Azumarill), but it also prevents your screens from being Defogged away, which I've found to be very nice.
Magic Bounce also means that Espeon cannot be Taunted, and that instead of setting up when you're obviously going to be will-o-wisped or toxic'd, you can switch in Espeon to potentially cripple the user. Other than Deoxys-S, Espeon can outspeed and can an attack from just about any other Stealth Rock user, including Landorus-T, Tyranitar, Garchomp, and Terrakion.
The other things it has over Deoxys-S are Baton Pass and Yawn. Baton Pass is okay (not that great, but nice) because if your opponent switches into a different Pokemon, anticipating you to switch into a specific one of your screen-abusers, then you can use Baton Pass and go into a different one that checks the Pokemon your opponent sent out, to get another free turn to set up. Yawn is another one of Espeon's ways of getting free turns, and is especially nice when facing something that threatens Espeon even when screens are up, such as Scizor or something.
However, Deoxys-S has a higher speed, a higher defense stat, Taunt, and Stealth Rock. The higher speed and defense are obviously boons over Espeon, but the other two do have their pros and cons. Taunt, while seemingly making Espeon's Magic Bounce unneeded for the most part, does fail against Mental Herb Deoxys-D and Oblivious Mamoswine, the first one being very common and the second being uncommon, but not unheard of. Taunt also isn't automatic, so during mid game when something's threatening to set up rocks, Defog, Taunt, or use status, you cannot switch in Deoxys-S, although 95% of the time it'll be KOed already anyways (while Espeon's slightly larger special bulk, Baton Pass, and Yawn allow it to sometimes be able to be saved for later).
Stealth Rock depends on the team for the most part. If there are particular OHKOs or 2HKOs that your Pokemon just barely miss, then having Stealth Rock while be great for your team. If all of your Pokemon's KOs are clean and Stealth Rock would just be unnecessary, then perhaps Espeon is a better lead.
Just saying Espeon will probably have use on 3 mon baton pass chains, although I don't know how viable they'll be.
Mega Charizard Y: A+ ---> A
Diggersby: B+ ---> A-
Mega Mawile: Stays in A+
Scolipede: Stays in B+
Vaporeon: C ---> Unranked
Mr. Mime: D ---> Unranked
Sylveon: Stays in B
Espeon: C+ ---> C-
And now for some reasoning... Mega Charizard Y has already been talked about in length in the last pages, and in a nutshell it needs too much support to make it in A+ (anti-SR support and Pursuit), while also having a lot of competition from more self sufficient wallbreakers, such as Landorus, Aegislash, Thundurus, Keldeo, and Mega Mawile.
Diggersby is great against both stall and offense, thanks to its ridiculous power, SD, good STABs, and Quick Attack, making it a Pokemon that will almost never disappoint. Also, it can check some big threats such as Aegislash, Focus Blast-less Thundurus, and frail offensive Pokemon with Quick Attack, so its not worthless defensively. Finally, it has a decent amount of versatility, with two relatively different sets, Scarf and SD, while it has some variations on the SD set itself that can fuck up some would be checks, depending on if it has Focus Sash or Life Orb. As far as comparisons go, Diggersby is more comparable to the likes of Manaphy and Breloom that reside in A-, than Pokemon such as Mega Manectric, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Medicham, that usually need more support to break past the opponent's defenses and also occupy the Mega slot.
Mega Mawile stays in A+ because it has too many flaws to be in S rank, namely very low Speed to the point it can be revenge killed even by defensive Pokemon such as Heatran, Rotom-W (WoW or Hydro Pump depending on the situation), and Zapdos, reliance on Sucker Punch to KO faster Pokemon, which can be taken advantage with moves such as WoW, Sub, and faster priority, and finally weaknesses to three very common attacking types, Fire and Ground, as well as poor special bulk, which means that excellent offensive Pokemon such as Garchomp, Greninja, Specs Keldeo, Landorus, Mega Pinsir, Mega Tyranitar, and Landorus-T can all check it easily. So, while Mega Mawile is an excellent Pokemon that can be very effective against both offensive and defensive teams, there are many ways to check it and play around it, unlike most Pokemon in S rank.
Vaporeon and Mr. Mime were removed from the list because they don't have a niche anymore with Baton Pass chains getting nerfed.
Sylveon and Scolipede stay where they are because their ranks were mostly based on their non-BP sets, namely the cleaner and lead set for Scolipede, and the cleric set for Sylveon.
Finally, Espeon drops in C- because of the nerf to Baton Pass. It doesn't drop to D or unranked because it still has a niche as a very situational Dual Screens setter, as well as a member of mini Baton Pass chains, with Scolipede, CM Espeon, and a third Baton Pass booster such as Venomoth or Togekiss. It's ranking is still up for debate, however for now C- is fine for it.
Diggersby: B+ ---> A-
Mega Mawile: Stays in A+
Scolipede: Stays in B+
Vaporeon: C ---> Unranked
Mr. Mime: D ---> Unranked
Sylveon: Stays in B
Espeon: C+ ---> C-
And now for some reasoning... Mega Charizard Y has already been talked about in length in the last pages, and in a nutshell it needs too much support to make it in A+ (anti-SR support and Pursuit), while also having a lot of competition from more self sufficient wallbreakers, such as Landorus, Aegislash, Thundurus, Keldeo, and Mega Mawile.
Diggersby is great against both stall and offense, thanks to its ridiculous power, SD, good STABs, and Quick Attack, making it a Pokemon that will almost never disappoint. Also, it can check some big threats such as Aegislash, Focus Blast-less Thundurus, and frail offensive Pokemon with Quick Attack, so its not worthless defensively. Finally, it has a decent amount of versatility, with two relatively different sets, Scarf and SD, while it has some variations on the SD set itself that can fuck up some would be checks, depending on if it has Focus Sash or Life Orb. As far as comparisons go, Diggersby is more comparable to the likes of Manaphy and Breloom that reside in A-, than Pokemon such as Mega Manectric, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Medicham, that usually need more support to break past the opponent's defenses and also occupy the Mega slot.
Mega Mawile stays in A+ because it has too many flaws to be in S rank, namely very low Speed to the point it can be revenge killed even by defensive Pokemon such as Heatran, Rotom-W (WoW or Hydro Pump depending on the situation), and Zapdos, reliance on Sucker Punch to KO faster Pokemon, which can be taken advantage with moves such as WoW, Sub, and faster priority, and finally weaknesses to three very common attacking types, Fire and Ground, as well as poor special bulk, which means that excellent offensive Pokemon such as Garchomp, Greninja, Specs Keldeo, Landorus, Mega Pinsir, Mega Tyranitar, and Landorus-T can all check it easily. So, while Mega Mawile is an excellent Pokemon that can be very effective against both offensive and defensive teams, there are many ways to check it and play around it, unlike most Pokemon in S rank.
Vaporeon and Mr. Mime were removed from the list because they don't have a niche anymore with Baton Pass chains getting nerfed.
Sylveon and Scolipede stay where they are because their ranks were mostly based on their non-BP sets, namely the cleaner and lead set for Scolipede, and the cleric set for Sylveon.
Finally, Espeon drops in C- because of the nerf to Baton Pass. It doesn't drop to D or unranked because it still has a niche as a very situational Dual Screens setter, as well as a member of mini Baton Pass chains, with Scolipede, CM Espeon, and a third Baton Pass booster such as Venomoth or Togekiss. It's ranking is still up for debate, however for now C- is fine for it.
It has to be given an analysis because it's OU, not ranked in the viability list. Not to mention that the reason it made it in OU was Baton Pass chains anyway.
On second thought, I suppose it could be unranked since its niche is just about as large as the hordes of other bulky waters that have niches but aren't allowed on the viability ranking list (and Empoleon should join them, as I've stated before).
Although if a Pokemon has an analysis, doesn't it have to be ranked? (OU Pokemon need an Analysis, Analysis Pokemon need a viability rank, therefore OU Pokemon need a viability rank). I thought that was the rule and was why Mr. Mime or some other D, C-, and C Pokemon were ranked in the first place, as well as why some formerly C Pokemon were removed (because their analysis got rejected).
Edit: Okay, I just was curious. I just thought that that was the general rule because otherwise I would've thought that a lot of the Pokemon on here wouldn't be ranked in the first place.
Although if a Pokemon has an analysis, doesn't it have to be ranked? (OU Pokemon need an Analysis, Analysis Pokemon need a viability rank, therefore OU Pokemon need a viability rank). I thought that was the rule and was why Mr. Mime or some other D, C-, and C Pokemon were ranked in the first place, as well as why some formerly C Pokemon were removed (because their analysis got rejected).
Edit: Okay, I just was curious. I just thought that that was the general rule because otherwise I would've thought that a lot of the Pokemon on here wouldn't be ranked in the first place.
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Well the rankings itself don't actually say anything about placements and in the grand scheme of things the viability rankings don't really mean anything, they are just sort of a guideline to newer players, and, as a side-note, shouldn't be as the gospel by any means. Basically, just because Vaporeon is OU, doesn't mean it has to be ranked.
I already mentioned that not all Pokemon with analyses need to be ranked. Every OU Pokemon gets an analysis so that new players know what every single OU Pokemon can or can't do. Viability ranking lists don't have to do this, viability of a Pokemon is all that matters, and if its viability is non existent it shouldn't get ranked. No more discussion about this please, it's a really minor matter that has already been answered.
One thing I might want to add about Mega Mawile is that... on experience of using it without teams actually intending to do so MMawile tends to be prepared for as he simply overlaps with a lot of threats in terms of available counters or checks. It is not so much that the metagame has been shaped by it but rather by everything else in the meta so to speak that a lot of teams without realizing it tend to be prepared against MMawile and usually have an answer or two up their sleeve as well as several checks to play around it.
Skarmory: A- ---> A
It's a better physical wall than Hippo who is in A, and is a good answer to common pokemon such as
Azumarill
Excadrill
Gyarados without taunt
Scizor
Tyranitar without fire blast
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tyranitar.3495248/'] Venusaur (Mega)[/URL]
Dragonite
Landorus-T
Breloom
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bisharp.3495143/']Bisharp[/URL]
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bisharp.3495143/'][URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/conkeldurr-qc-3-3-gp-0-2.3495926/']Conkeldurr[/URL][/URL]
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bisharp.3495143/'][URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/terrakion.3495125/']Terrakion[/URL][/URL]
Mawile (Mega)
It's probably the best answer to sand offense which is all over right now.
It's a better physical wall than Hippo who is in A, and is a good answer to common pokemon such as
Azumarill
Excadrill
Gyarados without taunt
Scizor
Tyranitar without fire blast
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tyranitar.3495248/'] Venusaur (Mega)[/URL]
Dragonite
Landorus-T
Breloom
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bisharp.3495143/']Bisharp[/URL]
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bisharp.3495143/'][URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/conkeldurr-qc-3-3-gp-0-2.3495926/']Conkeldurr[/URL][/URL]
[URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bisharp.3495143/'][URL='http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/terrakion.3495125/']Terrakion[/URL][/URL]
Mawile (Mega)
It's probably the best answer to sand offense which is all over right now.
pretty much every mega venu carries hp fire, so remove venu, it also checks garchomp w/o fire blast aswell as mega pinsir which is probably its best pro, it also checks diggersby aswell as offencive scoli and even zard x when at full health (counter). It can also opt to run special bulk and check deo s (offencive) mega garde (somewhat) and the lati's.
Although it checks a tone it has its flaws such as exploitable steel weakness because pokemon it checks/counters can get around it with things such as fire blast and fire fang. It can only really be used on semi-stall, stall and somewhat balanced because it drains a lot of momentum. It also has pituful special bulk which can hold it back aswell as having a serious case of 4mms and it can also be completely stopped with a taunt. Skarm is good and is manadatory for many teams but it can be player around with things such as fire coveredge, the fact that is has 4mms and pitiful special bulk aswell as being taunt bait prevents it from being an A rank poke.
Oh stupid me. Damn. Well tbh C- is too high for Espeon.
JK what? Charizard-Y already got moved down... Maybe I should find the recent changes.
Okay. I still think Latias deserves to move up. Healing Wish is a very useful move for HO teams, and some teams need its bulk over Latios. Defog is always useful, and 110 Special Attack is very solid. It's different from Latios, and I don't think one outclasses the other at all.
I'd also support Manaphy, Zapdos, Scolipede, and Smeargle staying where they are.
Hippowdon is easily better than Skarmory. Skarmory is the biggest momentum killer to any playstyle outside of full stall. Hippowdon with EQ and Stone Edge/Rock Slide/Toxic can actually retaliate rather than sit there like a sitting duck. Hippowdon also checks/counters all the pokes you mentioned barring some of course, but it can check/counter even more. For ex the spdef set can counter Thundurus and Aegislash. It can also counter Charizard X without Wow. It's simply better since it doesn't kill momentum and it is more versatile.
Edit: Also Hippo is not killed by trappers. Skarmory is always in danger of Gothitelle and Magnezone, which albeit being uncommmon still pose a threat to skarm.
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Sorry got busy, couldn't reply.
4 Atk Abomasnow Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 73-87 (30.2 - 36%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after hail damage
4 Atk Abomasnow Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 94-111 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after hail damage
Not to mention Greninja often uses a -def nature because it's using U-turn so it can't use Timid. Deoxy-S also has a lot more utility than Greninja, whereas Greninja can only run one set (with slight variation of the HP or U-turn). And what if your opponent brings in something to stop Greninja? Then it has to switch out, which isn't normally a big deal for other pokes, but for Greninja it's huge, because then it has to come back in again, so you'll have to sack another one of your pokes or get really lucky on a double switch. It just seems so overly difficult and not worth it to use, and so outclasses by not only Deoxy-S but Talonflame, that I can't see it in A+.
The difference between it and the other revenge killers is that it can ONLY come in when one of your pokemon faints. Talonflame has a good defensive typing and roost so it has some survivability. I guess Deoxys-S is the same, but Deoxy-S is not stopped by scarfers and has better coverage, as well as better bulk.
4 Atk Abomasnow Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 73-87 (30.2 - 36%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after hail damage
4 Atk Abomasnow Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 94-111 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after hail damage
Not to mention Greninja often uses a -def nature because it's using U-turn so it can't use Timid. Deoxy-S also has a lot more utility than Greninja, whereas Greninja can only run one set (with slight variation of the HP or U-turn). And what if your opponent brings in something to stop Greninja? Then it has to switch out, which isn't normally a big deal for other pokes, but for Greninja it's huge, because then it has to come back in again, so you'll have to sack another one of your pokes or get really lucky on a double switch. It just seems so overly difficult and not worth it to use, and so outclasses by not only Deoxy-S but Talonflame, that I can't see it in A+.
I've brought this up many times before, Pinsir and Talonflame need to drop to A rank. Charizard Y's drop was the nail in the coffin. Like Charizard Y, both require a bit much support and are not as strong as the A+ mons in terms of what they bring to the table. They're pretty good, but not great, and the list should reflect that.
and
-> A rank
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