Linked

[Akumeoy]

A turn of safety is only balanced in standard because you're not doing anything either, which is just not the case in Linked. Guaranteed free turns to actually do stuff? That's kind of bullshit. Ban linked Protect/Detect/KS/SS.

Getting rid of boosting move + attack links would really decentralize the metagame from around Clefable (and Quagsire), and it would also get rid of some of those really ridiculous sweeps. In standard, those moves are only balanced because you're spending a turn boosting instead of attacking, but now basically the only opportunity cost is that you don't break through Unaware or Substitutes at the same time. Without turns of the opponent being passive, it can be unreasonably difficult to stop something from setting up past the point where it's out of control. I'm in favor of a ban like this.

King's Rock/Razor Claw ban would end Cinccino's (And Cloyster's I guess) inanity without really affecting anything else, so I don't mind that being gone. I run a few Steel-types on my team so I never really had a problem with it, but I can see how people might not want to do that. Really, though, do people not run scarves? I mean... look at it. It's Cinccino. Just KO it. Cloyster might be a different story, though.

Talonflame is... fuck if I know. It's probably the best 'mon in the tier, being greatly improved in its own right by greater firepower and the possibility of not needing to go out of its way to get recovery, and in the meta by the fact that with speed being the name of the game, priority users that can take out things in one shot are reeeally helpful. But if we get rid of boost+attack and linked protect, a lot of the need for Talonflame goes away without actually making it better, because it's not like it was ever affected by those boosts. But I just don't know if it's broken.

 

[Pagoose]

I don't think we should ban boosting+attack moves because it is kinda the main draw and the fun of linked. However protect spamming is total aids and should be quick banned imo, and so should kings rock on principle because it is extremely uncompetitive. I really think we should refrain from banning anything that isn't uncompetitive like protect and kings rock atm.

 

[DarkeKnight]

In regards to Talonflame, I just found this really funny:

The opposing Talonflame used Brave Bird!
Garchomp lost 34.8% of its health!
The opposing Talonflame is hurt by Garchomp's Rough Skin!
The opposing Talonflame is hurt by Garchomp's Rocky Helmet!
The opposing Talonflame is damaged by the recoil!
The opposing Talonflame lost some of its HP!
The opposing Talonflame used Acrobatics!
Garchomp lost 17.9% of its health!
The opposing Talonflame is hurt by Garchomp's Rough Skin!
The opposing Talonflame is hurt by Garchomp's Rocky Helmet!
The opposing Talonflame lost some of its HP!
The opposing Talonflame fainted!

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

For boosting + attack link, I think banning them won't make your walls bulkier. Your wall will also struggle taking two attacks in a turn, especially with Specs (I just got swept by Rain team with Specs Swift Swim Kingdra Scald + Hydro Pump). Plus, banning boosting + attack kinda take away the point of Linked.

I remembered I made a suggestion to balance linked moves 11 pages ago. I'm not sure if this was a good idea, but I discussed with Hack_Guy in some posts. They're all in page 12.

Offense definitly need a nerf, at least for me. The only thing that makes Clefable viable is because of its Unaware that stop things like Swords Dance/Nasty Plot + an attacking move. I highly doubt it can take two attacks at once at +0/+0 defenses. For Mega Slowbro, not everything has Mega Slowbro's level of bulk. And even in standard OU (where pokes attack once in a turn), +1 SpD Mega Slowbro is kinda easy to overpower with some supereffective moves. I'm sure it will be easier here because pokes can have two attacks in a turn.

It would seem plausible to give linked moves a nerf to promote stall, probably something like a 0.9x or 0.8x damage modifier. What does everyone else think of that?

In Doubles, an all targeting moves only do 75% damage of the original. Why not apply the same to linked moves? It's kinda similar to the scenario when both of your pokes use all targeting move that hits both opposing pokes. What do you think?

For now, I'd say ban linking Protect/Detect/King's Shield and King's Rock/Razor Claw first and see how the meta develops. Then we can do something about this thing.

 

[Isa Simple]

I'm still on the fence about Protect as however I don't feel it is broken as it can easily be played around, it can be annoying and slightly uncompetitve.
The only really strong Protect link imo is Aegi with Shadow Sneak King Shield. Other than that every Protect Link I've seen the pokemon could easily run a better link.

As for the flinch stuff like holy shit. How could we even consider banning it? It sucks.
If you are losing to Cinccinos and Cloysters you are doing something extremely wrong.
Slap a scarf on anything and OHKO it.
Slap Rocky Helmet on a steel type and let it kill itself. Bullet Seed and Rock Blast don't proc helmet? You are a steel type, you're not taking damage, just attack it, Toxic stall it if you have too.
Cloyster is very similar. Only is better off with Shell Smash + Attack link. In which case the flinch chance isn't as high anyway.

 

[SgtEvans1]

First of all, I have played 18+ battles, and I'd like to talk about the flinch/Protect issues;

Razor Fang / King's rock is fine as it is, because there are many good priority users pokemon you can choose, like Talonflame, Thundurus-I, Infernape ( linked Fake out + Mach Punch), or choice-scarfed pokemon that can take care of Skill-link pokemon.
No one would want Cinccino being paralyzed or burned by either Thundurus-I or Sableye or Klefki, etc.

Also, like others said that the Rocky helmet is very useful when facing against king's rock/ razor fang holders.

For Protect linked, I have no problem with it. If you can't beat it, then you have no brain.

Aegislash is the only one that is difficult to beat if used properly by an experienced players, so I'd like to see it being put into suspect discussion. (I want it to be banned from Linked though)

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

I'm still on the fence about Protect as however I don't feel it is broken as it can easily be played around, it can be annoying and slightly uncompetitve.
The only really strong Protect link imo is Aegi with Shadow Sneak King Shield. Other than that every Protect Link I've seen the pokemon could easily run a better link.

As for the flinch stuff like holy shit. How could we even consider banning it? It sucks.
If you are losing to Cinccinos and Cloysters you are doing something extremely wrong.
Slap a scarf on anything and OHKO it.
Slap Rocky Helmet on a steel type and let it kill itself. Bullet Seed and Rock Blast don't proc helmet? You are a steel type, you're not taking damage, just attack it, Toxic stall it if you have too.
Cloyster is very similar. Only is better off with Shell Smash + Attack link. In which case the flinch chance isn't as high anyway.

You won't have the chance to attack or Toxic stall it if you keep getting flinched. I highly doubt you give your poke Scarf to Toxic Stall it. It doesn't matter if you are Steel type, it'll chip your health to death and you can't do anything about it if you're slower.

 

[DarkeKnight]

Also, like others said that the Rocky helmet is very useful when facing against king's rock/ razor fang holders.

Basically the only King's Rock users I've faced are Cincinno and Cloyster. Most Cincinno run Rock Blast/Bullet Seed in their link for two reasons. First, neither are contact moves and take no damage from Rocky Helmet. Second they both hit Aegislash and other Ghost types which would otherwise have "only" a 41% chance of being flinched. Similarly, Cloyster gets Icicle Spear and Rock Blast to abuse and given a chance can be much worse than Cincinno as it gets STAB on Icicle Spear. And if your opponent predicts you switching to a scarf or something and decides to Shell Smash, you have a 35% of being able to attack. Not KO, just attack. And remember that most teams run maybe 1 scarf and not all teams run priority. If your scarf is dead, you have a good chance of losing simply because of luck and no actual skill.

For Protect linked, I have no problem with it. If you can't beat it, then you have no brain.

Aegislash is the only one that is difficult to beat if used properly by an experienced players, so I'd like to see it being put into suspect discussion. (I want it to be banned from Linked though)

The two statements kinda contradict each other.


As for my own opinion, I'm all for banning King's Rock/Razor Fang. Same for Protect+Attacking move. Jernmax posted a couple of replays already showing how so. Yes, it can be played around but that doesn't stop it from being uncompetitive.

 

[Isa Simple]

Basically the only King's Rock users I've faced are Cincinno and Cloyster. Most Cincinno run Rock Blast/Bullet Seed in their link for two reasons. First, neither are contact moves and take no damage from Rocky Helmet. Second they both hit Aegislash and other Ghost types which would otherwise have "only" a 41% chance of being flinched. Similarly, Cloyster gets Icicle Spear and Rock Blast to abuse and given a chance can be much worse than Cincinno as it gets STAB on Icicle Spear. And if your opponent predicts you switching to a scarf or something and decides to Shell Smash, you have a 35% of being able to attack. Not KO, just attack. And remember that most teams run maybe 1 scarf and not all teams run priority. If your scarf is dead, you have a good chance of losing simply because of luck and no actual skill.


The two statements kinda contradict each other.


As for my own opinion, I'm all for banning King's Rock/Razor Fang. Same for Protect+Attacking move. Jernmax posted a couple of replays already showing how so. Yes, it can be played around but that doesn't stop it from being uncompetitive.

I don't mean to be rude but those replays showed absolutely nothing of the sort.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237206686
In the above replay, Talonflame's Protect didn't block anything. Also, due to linking Protect over Aerial Ace, Talon missed the OHKO on Gliscor and got itself inflicted with Toxic. In fact if Talonflame had Aerial Ace > Protect it would have cleaned Gliscor and Mienshao. But it died. Scizor on the other however Protecting itself from an Earthquake which wouldn't have killed, would have been far better off linking SD with Roost. If anything this replay shows why Protect linking shouldn't be banned.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237209289
Here Talonflame would've OHKOed this particular Rotom-W at +2 if it had Aerial Ace > Protect. It protected the Hydro Pump, but Rotom wouldn't have even got off the Hydro Pump if Talon had Aerial Ace and as a result Talonflame took more recoil damage than need be. Again this is a good case against Protect ban.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237401642
Dragonite did some decent things here with Protect E-Speed (suspecting this particular link is slightly more understandable as it has +2 Priority to wreck Talon). Aegislash didn't really get to abuse his Link but that is the only Protect Link I would even consider suspecting, and even that can easily be played around. Dragonite is 10x better with Dragon Dance + Sky Drop. To me Protect E-Speed Dragonite can't be broken if DD-Sky Drop broken, and is actually healthy for the meta in that it gives us something to beat Talonflame.

These replays prove that Protect in a link shouldn't be banned.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I don't mean to be rude but those replays showed absolutely nothing of the sort.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237206686
In the above replay, Talonflame's Protect didn't block anything. Also, due to linking Protect over Aerial Ace, Talon missed the OHKO on Gliscor and got itself inflicted with Toxic. In fact if Talonflame had Aerial Ace > Protect it would have cleaned Gliscor and Mienshao. But it died. Scizor on the other however Protecting itself from an Earthquake which wouldn't have killed, would have been far better off linking SD with Roost. If anything this replay shows why Protect linking shouldn't be banned.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237209289
Here Talonflame would've OHKOed this particular Rotom-W at +2 if it had Aerial Ace > Protect. It protected the Hydro Pump, but Rotom wouldn't have even got off the Hydro Pump if Talon had Aerial Ace and as a result Talonflame took more recoil damage than need be. Again this is a good case against Protect ban.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237401642
Dragonite did some decent things here with Protect E-Speed (suspecting this particular link is slightly more understandable as it has +2 Priority to wreck Talon). Aegislash didn't really get to abuse his Link but that is the only Protect Link I would even consider suspecting, and even that can easily be played around. Dragonite is 10x better with Dragon Dance + Sky Drop. To me Protect E-Speed Dragonite can't be broken if DD-Sky Drop broken, and is actually healthy for the meta in that it gives us something to beat Talonflame.

These replays prove that Protect in a link shouldn't be banned.

Its still a gueanteed attack every single time, though I struggle with Gliscor. The team might not be perfect as its a work in progress.

I've recently used my original strategi with toxic spikes, increasing the amount of damage I'm doing per turn, and also allowing me to muscle past Clefable.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237413728

 

[Haunted Diamond]

This is a meta where you should put scarf on 4 of your mons. I can't see why people are worried about king's rock..

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

I don't mean to be rude but those replays showed absolutely nothing of the sort.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237206686
In the above replay, Talonflame's Protect didn't block anything. Also, due to linking Protect over Aerial Ace, Talon missed the OHKO on Gliscor and got itself inflicted with Toxic. In fact if Talonflame had Aerial Ace > Protect it would have cleaned Gliscor and Mienshao. But it died. Scizor on the other however Protecting itself from an Earthquake which wouldn't have killed, would have been far better off linking SD with Roost. If anything this replay shows why Protect linking shouldn't be banned.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237209289
Here Talonflame would've OHKOed this particular Rotom-W at +2 if it had Aerial Ace > Protect. It protected the Hydro Pump, but Rotom wouldn't have even got off the Hydro Pump if Talon had Aerial Ace and as a result Talonflame took more recoil damage than need be. Again this is a good case against Protect ban.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237401642
Dragonite did some decent things here with Protect E-Speed (suspecting this particular link is slightly more understandable as it has +2 Priority to wreck Talon). Aegislash didn't really get to abuse his Link but that is the only Protect Link I would even consider suspecting, and even that can easily be played around. Dragonite is 10x better with Dragon Dance + Sky Drop. To me Protect E-Speed Dragonite can't be broken if DD-Sky Drop broken, and is actually healthy for the meta in that it gives us something to beat Talonflame.

These replays prove that Protect in a link shouldn't be banned.

The first replay shows when Talonflame sweeps Skarmory, Charizard-X and Gliscor, the Protect scenario goes success, success, fail. That's why Talonflame got Poisoned. If the Protect scenario goes success, fail, success or just triple success, Talonflame wouldn't be poisoned and it'll sweep Gliscor. This shows that Protect is luck based and uncompetitive. The third replay also shows that.

 

[Isa Simple]

The first replay shows when Talonflame sweeps Skarmory, Charizard-X and Gliscor, the Protect scenario goes success, success, fail. That's why Talonflame got Poisoned. If the Protect scenario goes success, fail, success or just triple success, Talonflame wouldn't be poisoned and it'll sweep Gliscor. This shows that Protect is luck based and uncompetitive. The third replay also shows that.

Skarmory and Charizard would have died to even unlinked Brave Bird, so I don't see your point.

As for Gliscor and loosing due to luck; Why base your strategies on luck when you could could just run Aerial Ace > Protect and get a better result?

I don't understand how you could ban Protect links because if you get lucky you may get 2 or 3 consecutive free turns, even though you won't need the free turns if you use a better link.

Its like why don't we ban Focus Ban. If your lucky you could live 1000000 hits in a row and 6-0 someone. Luck isn't an argument to ban something when the odds are against you.

50% to fail is really high, hence why no one uses Inferno or Zap Cannon

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Skarmory and Charizard would have died to even unlinked Brave Bird, so I don't see your point.

As for Gliscor and loosing due to luck; Why base your strategies on luck when you could could just run Aerial Ace > Protect and get a better result?

I don't understand how you could ban Protect links because if you get lucky you may get 2 or 3 consecutive free turns, even though you won't need the free turns if you use a better link.

Its like why don't we ban Focus Ban. If your lucky you could live 1000000 hits in a row and 6-0 someone. Luck isn't an argument to ban something when the odds are against you.

But the odds for Focus band is 10%. First turn is 100% chance, second is 50%

Talonflame with protect beats most other forms of talonflames

 

[Isa Simple]

But the odds for Focus band is 10%. First turn is 100% chance, second is 50%

Talonflame with protect beats most other forms of talonflames

Talonflame vs Talonflame will come down to speed every single time regardless of whether you have BB+Protect, BB+Aerial Ace, BB+Roost, or BB+Acrobatics.

 

[Heroes and Cons]

We need to ban Clefable, it is EASILY the most broken thing in Linked and is completely unstoppable without crits once it gets a couple of boosts. Heck, after a single cosmic power with Unaware it walls even Mega Zard X, and it doesn't even resist Flare Blitz! Not to mention its movepool, Softboiled / Moonlight, and excellent pure Fairy typing. Being able to boost both defenses and reliably heal 50% of its HP all in one turn, and ignore opposing boosters in the process, with a Fairy type, is too much.

 

[DarkeKnight]

We need to ban Clefable, it is EASILY the most broken thing in Linked and is completely unstoppable without crits once it gets a couple of boosts. Heck, after a single cosmic power with Unaware it walls even Mega Zard X, and it doesn't even resist Flare Blitz! Not to mention its movepool, Softboiled / Moonlight, and excellent pure Fairy typing. Being able to boost both defenses and reliably heal 50% of its HP all in one turn, and ignore opposing boosters in the process, with a Fairy type, is too much.

Honestly, I'd love for this thing to be banned but sadly this is one of the few things in the meta that stops literally every Pokemon from being a scarfed boosting move + Attack Pokemon.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Honestly, I'd love for this thing to be banned but sadly this is one of the few things in the meta that stops literally every Pokemon from being a scarfed boosting move + Attack Pokemon.

Linked will be great an innovative when you remove: Clefable, Aegislash, Talonflame, Protect, Attack + Boost and flinching

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

We need to ban Clefable, it is EASILY the most broken thing in Linked and is completely unstoppable without crits once it gets a couple of boosts. Heck, after a single cosmic power with Unaware it walls even Mega Zard X, and it doesn't even resist Flare Blitz! Not to mention its movepool, Softboiled / Moonlight, and excellent pure Fairy typing. Being able to boost both defenses and reliably heal 50% of its HP all in one turn, and ignore opposing boosters in the process, with a Fairy type, is too much.

I'm not sure if you're serious or not. Moonlight only has 8 pp so you won't be stalling forever. (you can't have Unaware if you have Softboiled because it's illegal). Unaware means it is vulnerable to Toxic unless you run Heal Bell (in this case, being a mono-attacker which limits on what you do vs opponent). Amoonguss can stop it if you immediately switch in. Jirachi can flinch it to death with Iron Head (which is Super Effective) + Zen Headbutt or just normal Headbutt. Also I believe Mega Metagross and Landorus I is powerful enough to break it even with +1 defenses.

Also it's one of the few stallmons that have a chance against the tier. Idk why would you want to ban it when Stall barely exist.

 

[Isa Simple]

If we banned Clefable Stall would die and there would be so much shit running rampart.

There are still enough things that can break past Clefable do stop it from being broken.
- A lot of pokemon with dual linked attacking moves can break it if they catch it early, such as Talonflame with BB+Aerial Ace/Acrobatics (But not Talonflame with BB+Protect, yet that is what is getting suspected for God knows what). Also Lando-I with Earth Power + Sludge Wave is really strong.
- Taunt users can completely shut it down.
- Phazers can shut it down.
- Status wears it down quickly.
- Pressure users drain Moonlight's PP extremely fast allowing you to wear it down.
- It can be flinched to death (Another reason to not ban Kings Rock etc).
- Mold Breaker boosters such as Mega Gyarados can muscle past it.

 

[DarkeKnight]

Linked will be great an innovative when you remove: Clefable, Aegislash, Talonflame, Protect, Attack + Boost and flinching

I'm not so sure on innovative. Give me an example set.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I'm not so sure on innovative. Give me an example set.

Well trick room for example, as now it's extremely pressured by Aegis & Talonflame. Fusion bolt + Fusion flare would be better if it wasn't revenge killed by Aegis & Talonflame, those kind of sets. Well, yeah. Maybe Clefable should stay, Aegis and Talonflame is to pressuring, as well as everything else I mentioned.

 

[Isa Simple]

Well trick room for example, as now it's extremely pressured by Aegis & Talonflame. Fusion bolt + Fusion flare would be better if it wasn't revenge killed by Aegis & Talonflame, those kind of sets. Well, yeah. Maybe Clefable should stay, Aegis and Talonflame is to pressuring, as well as everything else I mentioned.

I don't see how Aegi and Talonflame are too pressuring for Trick Room to work.
Given that Aegi is a great addition to Trick Room, and Trick Room allows sweepers like Azumaril to out prioritise and OHKO Talonflame.

Also everything else mentioned is the meta game. Boost + Attack, Fake Turn, Flinch, and that other shizzle is what makes Linked, Linked. You can't just go ahead and ban anything that gets usage.

 

[DarkeKnight]

Well trick room for example, as now it's extremely pressured by Aegis & Talonflame. Fusion bolt + Fusion flare would be better if it wasn't revenge killed by Aegis & Talonflame, those kind of sets. Well, yeah. Maybe Clefable should stay, Aegis and Talonflame is to pressuring, as well as everything else I mentioned.

I've actually been using Trick Room for a while now. The only trouble I really have is with Talonflame. Aegi can be handled. And the only reason I have trouble with Talon is because two of my TR abusers are weak to flying.

Honestly, Aegislash won't be as broken as it is now if/when a Protect link is banned. Yes, Shadow Ball + Sacred Sword does a lot of damage to a lot of Pokemon. But that doesn't mean it's broken. You could just as easily link something like Outrage + Ice Beam with Kyu-B and it could arguably deal much more damage than Aegi. I'm all for Aegi and Clefable being unbanned.

As for Talon, I've been against it since the beginning and would like it banned but I don't think it should be. All of its sets can be handled by something or the other.

Clefable, yes, it's hard to beat if you're unprepared. I would absolutely love for this to be banned so I can slap a scarf on everything and use Boost + Attack. However literally anything with Taunt, Unaware, Phazing, Status or Mold Breaker can take care of it.

I agree on both Protect and Flinching. Both are plain uncompetitive.

Attack + Boost pretty much defines THE meta.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I don't see how Aegi and Talonflame are too pressuring for Trick Room to work.
Given that Aegi is a great addition to Trick Room, and Trick Room allows sweepers like Azumaril to out prioritise and OHKO Talonflame.

Also everything else mentioned is the meta game. Boost + Attack, Fake Turn, Flinch, and that other shizzle is what makes Linked, Linked. You can't just go ahead and ban anything that gets usage.

Talonflame's very, very powerful and bypasses Trick room as it can use priority. Azumarill doesn't OHKO without band, even then its still a roll. Brave bird + Aerial ace (Or tect Talonflame) OHKOs. Aegislash doesn't want to take a Flare blitz either. Aegislash, on the other hand, is difficult to OHKO on trickroom and its Ghost coverage hits most Trick room setters super effectively, which is a pain.

Boost + Attack is too overpowering and stall will never be viable if its there. Sub + Boosting move, Protect + Boosting move, Attack + Attack is of course still allowed so it's a minor loss, but stall would be viable, and balance for that sake. I don't really give a rats ass if it defines the metagame, what defines the metagame is using two moves at the same time, it's undeniably broken and using "its the meta bro" as an argument is stupid, not accusing anyone

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237469016