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Linked
- Thread starter Hack_Guy
- Start date
It should. Feint has the effect of lowering the Protect shield for the rest of the turn, as Doubles attests.
If Mega Pinsir wasn't outsped and donked by Talonflame anyways, Feint + Quick Attack could be fun on it.
Banning boosting + attack won't make your walls bulkier, because things like attack + attack exist. Hardly anything can take dual STAB from pokes like Keldeo, Azumarill, Mega Gardevoir, Landorus I, Mega Metagross, Mega Charizard (both X and Y)and weather sweepers like Mega Swampert or Kingdra in Rain (especially with Specs).
Take for example, Specs Keldeo vs the common counter in OU, Mega Venusaur.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 114-135 (31.3 - 37%) -- 82.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 65-77 (17.8 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO
With this, Specs Keldeo does a minimum damage of 49.1% in the lowest damage roll. What it normally counters it now can't switch in anymore because it has a very high chance of getting 2HKO'd. As for Belly Drum Azumarill,
Dusclops @ Eviolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Trick Room
- Memento
- Protect
- Toxic
Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IV: 0 Speed
- Waterfall
- Play Rough
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
Here it is, my Trick Room and an unstoppable thing. It works very well everytime I tried. Basically use Trick Room + Memento Dusclops, then set up Belly Drum then sweep. What normally stops it? Talonflame? Get outspeed by Aqua Jet in Trick Room. Mega Venusaur?
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 224-264 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 199-234 (54.6 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nope. Mega Venusaur normally counters it in OU, but look at this. Get 1HKO'd. Clefable?
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 139-165 (35.2 - 41.8%) -- 83.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
With a 75-90% total damage, I highly doubt Clefable can stop this.
Let's see another case that normally counters in OU but get 2HKO'd here. An excellent example that have no switch ins (I didn't say unwallable) because of two attack is Mega Lopunny. Copied from Lopunny dex.
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 126-148 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 49-58 (14.6 - 17.3%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
Nope. Can't switch in because it gets 2HKO'd.
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 69-81 (18.9 - 22.2%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 109-129 (29.9 - 35.4%) -- 22.4% chance to 3HKO
With minimum damage roll of 48.8% damage and no Leftovers because of mega, it will most likely 2HKO'd, meaning it can't switch in. Hippowdon also gets 2HKO'd with High Jump Kick + Return.
What I'm trying to say is, Stall will have equally hard time even with banning linked set up + attacking move because there are many more things that make 3HKO turn into 2HKO and 2HKO turn into 1HKO just because of linking attack + attack.
For now, I'd say ban linking Protect/Detect/King's Shield and King's Rock/Razor Claw and see how the meta develops. Then we can do something to promote Stall.
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If you guys are still set on banning King's Rock / Razor Claw and Protect + Attack Links, can someone at least post some replays of these things actually being "ban worthy" vs any remotely well built team, and where the set actually does something which a better set couldn't have done?
Because I've seen Cincinnos, Cloysters, and Protect Talonflame everywhere and none of them ever achieve anything. The former two are just bad, and the latter is completely outclassed by BB + Aerial Ace / Acrobatics.
Prove me wrong with replays please, because I would hate to see shit get banned without out being convinced that they are even remotely ban worthy.
The only thing I would considering banning is linking King's Shield with Shadow Sneak on Aegislash, almost all other Protect links are outclassed by other links.
Because I've seen Cincinnos, Cloysters, and Protect Talonflame everywhere and none of them ever achieve anything. The former two are just bad, and the latter is completely outclassed by BB + Aerial Ace / Acrobatics.
Prove me wrong with replays please, because I would hate to see shit get banned without out being convinced that they are even remotely ban worthy.
The only thing I would considering banning is linking King's Shield with Shadow Sneak on Aegislash, almost all other Protect links are outclassed by other links.
EV
Banned deucer.
I haven't gotten into this yet, but some other ideas:
- Counter+Mirror Coat? Guaranteed damage rebound (if you live.)
- How does Sucker Punch stack? Could you do Priority+Sucker Punch to gain +1 on both? Also Sucker Punch+Pursuit for guaranteed trapping!
- What about Focus Punch? It's at -3, so if you did Substitute+Focus Punch and took damage, would you still get your sub and then use the attack or do you flinch?
- Hazards look fairly easy to stack. How about double phaze? Roar+Wind to shuffle the opponent twice in one turn.
- Protect and Snatch are both +4. I could see some fun stat/status stealing things with that while also blocking Setup+Attack combos. Does Snatch steal the entire link?
- Prankster gives +1 to status, so if you do Protect+Attack on a Prankstermon do you gain priority? That would be nice for Thundurus to Protect+Thunderbolt Talonflame so long as Bird+Bird doesn't KO.
The rule is that linked attacks both take on the lowest priority among the moves.
- Risky. Unless you're up against a mixed link, it'll only get recoil from the second attack. Odds are, your Wobbuffet will be taking substantially more than it'll be dishing out.
- Sucker Punch has +1 priority even when it fails, so linking it with other priority will work.
- Linked SubPunch will all be at -3 priority. If you take damage before moving, you get the substitute, but Focus Punch still fails.
- Hazard stacking and multiple phazing are legit, but the meta seems a bit fast and powerful to do it reliably.
- No idea how Protect+Snatch works, as I'm not familiar with the latter move.
- Prankster Status+Attack is only priority if the attack is naturally priority. Prankster Protect+Status, if linked Protect sticks around, could work, though I imagine most pranksters would rather make the most of their abilities. For Thundurus in particular, Thunder Wave + Taunt annoys or shuts down nigh-everything, and I'd be hard-pressed to give up one just to guarantee the other.
With the power creep in Linked, if we really want to balance Linked without banning anything, I suggest nerfing the power of Linked moves to 75% by adding damage modifier or something, just like the idea I proposed in page 12. At one point, Hack_Guy agreed with this but the others rejected it because not many complains about power creep (basically because almost no one played Linked that time). Now that this become OMotM, many people played this and complained about power creep, basically make Stall hardly viable. So I brought back this idea once more. Now the question is, do you agree with this?
Flinching could do 3% of my health, it doesn't matter if I can't heal
I'd like to point out that Protect and Detect also chop off 2/3rds of their success chance on each successful use, not just King's Shield/Spiky Shield.
I'm personally of the following opinions:
-Talonflame is overcentralizing. It does too many things too well too fast -it's literally the only Pokémon in the entire game (Barring its own previous evolutionary stages) that has something like a half dozen viable +1 priority links. (Well, barring some Pranksters, but Pranksters cripple with their priority, they don't kill, mostly)
-Flinch shenanigans are uncompetitive and potentially overcentralizing. While a lot of attention has been on Cinccino, I'm particularly concerned about Cloyster's access to Shell Smash and good Physical bulk, the former potentially obviating Scarves as checks/counters and the latter limiting the extent to which priority holds it back.
-Protect shenanigans seem, at first glance, to be reasonably manageable, but are honestly probably bull and need to be banned. Something nobody has tried to my awareness that seems extremely alarming is Linoone; pull off an unlinked Belly Drum, and now anything you can 2HKO with Extreme Speed is incapable of even revenge-switching in on you safely because of Extreme Speed+Protect. (No, Ghosts aren't a reliable stop to it -it gets Shadow Claw) Unlike Dragonite, this will hit like a truck, and it laughs at one of Linoone's primary flaws: that it lacks bulk. Main things holding it back are Aegislash and Clefable's popularity.
-Banning Clefable makes literally no sense. It's good, yes, but not broken or even overcentralizing. It's too easy to kill in general, and in particular CosmicLight doesn't have enough PP. (A Leppa berry would help, mind)
-Aegislash is possibly broken with Protect shenanigans in play, but probably not broken if they're taken off the table, from what I'm seeing
I'm personally of the following opinions:
-Talonflame is overcentralizing. It does too many things too well too fast -it's literally the only Pokémon in the entire game (Barring its own previous evolutionary stages) that has something like a half dozen viable +1 priority links. (Well, barring some Pranksters, but Pranksters cripple with their priority, they don't kill, mostly)
-Flinch shenanigans are uncompetitive and potentially overcentralizing. While a lot of attention has been on Cinccino, I'm particularly concerned about Cloyster's access to Shell Smash and good Physical bulk, the former potentially obviating Scarves as checks/counters and the latter limiting the extent to which priority holds it back.
-Protect shenanigans seem, at first glance, to be reasonably manageable, but are honestly probably bull and need to be banned. Something nobody has tried to my awareness that seems extremely alarming is Linoone; pull off an unlinked Belly Drum, and now anything you can 2HKO with Extreme Speed is incapable of even revenge-switching in on you safely because of Extreme Speed+Protect. (No, Ghosts aren't a reliable stop to it -it gets Shadow Claw) Unlike Dragonite, this will hit like a truck, and it laughs at one of Linoone's primary flaws: that it lacks bulk. Main things holding it back are Aegislash and Clefable's popularity.
-Banning Clefable makes literally no sense. It's good, yes, but not broken or even overcentralizing. It's too easy to kill in general, and in particular CosmicLight doesn't have enough PP. (A Leppa berry would help, mind)
-Aegislash is possibly broken with Protect shenanigans in play, but probably not broken if they're taken off the table, from what I'm seeing
From what I've noticed, people are making the 'overcentralizing' mons way more overcentralizing than they seem. I can assure you that there are stall teams that can beat every 'overpowered' threat that's been thrown around in this thread and more.
First of all, aegislash. Of course, as it was in ou, it's a rather centralizing threat which requires a mon to deal with it. But there are enough ways to stop it. For example, anything that can take a hit and will-o it will shut it down pretty much completely (e.g. heatran). Chansey is a mon that can out-pp-stall it as aegislash has no way to ohko it and chansey can wish+softboiled -> protect stall it. It doesn't even beat clefable reliably as with the cosmic power+moonlight option, clefable can outspeed and get one up after which aegislash can't outdamage the recovery and clef will be able to get to +6 and fire off stored powers. Mega Venusaur doesn't take too much damage and can always put it to sleep, possibly combined with a recovery move or leech seed.
Aegislash's reliance on a few stab moves means it's always able to be beaten by a number of threats. I don't know how well it fares against offense, but as offense I believe you should be able to run some sort of priority, a taunt user or a status move that can deal with it.
Secondly, clefable. As offense it is indeed necessary to prepare for this threat, for example with a clear smog user (complete counters), a jirachi, a heatran, a metagross or even a trace user. Of course, status also cripples it and if clefable wants to deal with it, it has to live with only running moonblast. Clefable is very passive the first six turns it's on the field so bringing in a mon that deals with it is pretty much always free.
Talonflame is something stall can deal with very well. It does punch holes in offense if given a free turn, but really, what mon doesn't? You could opt for the traditional counters of course such as heatran, diancie and a rotom forme on the more balanced teams. All in all, even though band talonflame got 1.5x stronger, there's a lot of mons that can deal with it better as well, such as rotom which can pain split and ko afterwards.
The bb+protect sets seem to be the toughest to beat for unprepared teams. The checks and counters remain the same though. Also, since the omnipresent clefable (and aegi if predicted right) deal with it rather well, banning
I really do like how this metagame forces you to keep certain mons alive to deal with other threats as pokemon are much more powerful, both offensively and defensively. Trying to kill a certain check or counter to a pokemon is exactly what this metagame is about, and if you only have one mon to deal with talonflame or clefable, you better make sure you keep it alive until the end. I don't see it as a negative.
First of all, aegislash. Of course, as it was in ou, it's a rather centralizing threat which requires a mon to deal with it. But there are enough ways to stop it. For example, anything that can take a hit and will-o it will shut it down pretty much completely (e.g. heatran). Chansey is a mon that can out-pp-stall it as aegislash has no way to ohko it and chansey can wish+softboiled -> protect stall it. It doesn't even beat clefable reliably as with the cosmic power+moonlight option, clefable can outspeed and get one up after which aegislash can't outdamage the recovery and clef will be able to get to +6 and fire off stored powers. Mega Venusaur doesn't take too much damage and can always put it to sleep, possibly combined with a recovery move or leech seed.
Aegislash's reliance on a few stab moves means it's always able to be beaten by a number of threats. I don't know how well it fares against offense, but as offense I believe you should be able to run some sort of priority, a taunt user or a status move that can deal with it.
Secondly, clefable. As offense it is indeed necessary to prepare for this threat, for example with a clear smog user (complete counters), a jirachi, a heatran, a metagross or even a trace user. Of course, status also cripples it and if clefable wants to deal with it, it has to live with only running moonblast. Clefable is very passive the first six turns it's on the field so bringing in a mon that deals with it is pretty much always free.
Talonflame is something stall can deal with very well. It does punch holes in offense if given a free turn, but really, what mon doesn't? You could opt for the traditional counters of course such as heatran, diancie and a rotom forme on the more balanced teams. All in all, even though band talonflame got 1.5x stronger, there's a lot of mons that can deal with it better as well, such as rotom which can pain split and ko afterwards.
The bb+protect sets seem to be the toughest to beat for unprepared teams. The checks and counters remain the same though. Also, since the omnipresent clefable (and aegi if predicted right) deal with it rather well, banning
I really do like how this metagame forces you to keep certain mons alive to deal with other threats as pokemon are much more powerful, both offensively and defensively. Trying to kill a certain check or counter to a pokemon is exactly what this metagame is about, and if you only have one mon to deal with talonflame or clefable, you better make sure you keep it alive until the end. I don't see it as a negative.
Um, you keep mentioning stall here. Please show me an example of it in action.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
You are completely missing the point here. Its not because they outclass shit or make things harder to use. Its not because they are good in the first place. Its the mere premise that it puts the game completely in the hands of the RNG. Literally, it all depends on what kind of a mood the RNG is in and this is merely uncompetitive and cannot be argued. It doesn't matter whether or not its effective. Nobody cares whether or not its effective because that is irrelevant and not the argument we are trying to make. King's rock has a chance to 6-0 a team just because of the RNG's mood, and is viable solely because the RNG says it can win games. It doesn't even matter if it fails to get a kill, if it gets some extra damage on the opponent's clefable or whatever, it changes the outcome of the game just because of the RNG.
Flinching literally makes certain mons unviable in this metagame and that is sad. Standard attacking mons have to have scarf or be faster than flinchers or they will be prone to that high chance of flinching, not to mention that most mons take big damage from skillcino's link.
Making the claim that we are banning whatever is getting usage is utter nonsense and sounds more butthurt than otherwise...
Flinches creates an aspect of the metagame that has absolutely no skill and severely limits battling capability. The metagame isn't nearly as fun if you have to pack a talonflame/random flinch counter just so you possibly don't auto-lose to a total noob. Skilled players can have an opponent completely outclassed at team preview but still have a decent chance of losing solely because king's rock gets a few critical flinches. No, this is not competitive, don't even bother trying to argue that it is. Whether or not flinching is outclassed is completely irrelevant.
Before you argue that we should just ban confusion because its RNG based, realize that confusion doesn't 6-0 teams. You don't just sit there and watch the opponent hit themselves over and over while you win or recover stall. Opponents also break out of confusion, just like sleep. Regular confusion is dangerous, but not broken because it does so little damage to your opponents that it won't win battles in the first place. Using confuse ray sableye doesn't mean you can 6-0 a high end team. Because it can't, period. Swagger could because of the attack raise and the fact that it essentially doubled confusion damage whilst making foul play very powerful. Regular confusion not so much.
Protect + Attack on Talon/Aegi/fastmon is what you are calling outclassed. Wait, really? No. No. Yes...Really!?!? Show me one example of how talonflame does damage and makes itself invulnerable in one turn, allowing it to literally revenge kill any mon without reliable recovery. You talk about dual link? Dual link takes even MORE damage from rocky helmet on both sides. Does it really matter whether or not BB + protect is outclassed? Nothing else makes it invulnerable while attacking, right? Protect + BB or Protect + Acro can make mons without reliable recovery, priority, rocky helmet, or high bulk literally unviable. The fact that a mon can consistently eliminate / force a switch on so many mons that should be viable is the definition of overcentralization. King's Shield + Shadow Sneak is even worse, and you said as much, but talon is no better. Protect + icicle spear is even worse because you can only touch it every other turn, and have only such a high chance to break through anyways. Its total aids. Anybody for king's rock iron head + zen headbutt jirachi? Yeah, let's not. Get this shit out of here.
Flinching might suck, but its uncompetitive. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. It is so uncompetitive that we lose literally nothing but an RNG based strategy, so what reason do we have NOT to ban it? It doesn't matter if flinching achieves anything, it matters that it puts the game in the hands of showdown. Whether or not it sucks, its uncompetitive. Ban-worthy shit is stuff that is too good, but also strategies that are uncompetitive, and as a result no replays are needed to prove that king's rock should go on principle.
I'll post more later once I have read through some of the posts but for now there are two balancing issues I would like to address::
btw these things don't necessarily need to be fixed; as everything is broken af so, essentially, nothing is. I just think the meta would be more enjoyable, and more strategies viable, with these changes.
edit:grammar & wording
- Protect in links. Protecting moves + Priority are insanely good. The two best examples I've seen are Shadow Sneak + King's Shield Aegislash and Protect + Brave Bird Talonflame. These combinations invalidate a whole host of other mons; and I think the meta would be better off without them.
- Sleep Turns. As of now the sleep counter ticks every time a pokemon tries to take a move. What this does is not only make Spore nearly worthless, but it makes ResTalk an incredible strategy. CroCune is the funniest damn piece of shit, and the two turn sleep timer works out perfectly. It fully restores itself and cures status every other turn while slowly working up to +6 SpA and SpD. Or, if you're afraid of physical set up sweepers, just run Roar > CM and be invincible whilst burning their whole team.
btw these things don't necessarily need to be fixed; as everything is broken af so, essentially, nothing is. I just think the meta would be more enjoyable, and more strategies viable, with these changes.
edit:grammar & wording
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I've played a few games, and I really enjoy it. Some cool sets I've been using:
Sharpedo @ Sharpedonite | Speed Boost
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe | Adamant
Super Fang / Waterfall / Crunch / Protect
Super Fang linked with any strong attack is so absurdly good in this metagame. I know some people have been recommending Assurance, as it's 120 Base Power if it's the second move of a link and the first hits, but with Strong Jaw, Crunch is just as powerful and has a chance to drop Defense. The reason why I linked Waterfall over Crunch is because you also get a flinch chance in case something like Quagsire lives and so that you can beat Clefable easily. Shit's dank, highly recommend it.
Victini @ Flame Plate | Victory Star
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe | Jolly
Flame Charge / Power-Up Punch / V-Create / Bolt Strike
Dragon Dance Victini, effectively. Also dank, also stupid powerful. V-Create drops Speed, but you make up for it with the Flame Charge boost. Has problems with Quagsire, but V-Create does like 75% to Clefable, so that's not a problem for it at all. Victini is really good as forcing switches, so it's really easy to boost with as well.
Also, Endure Rocky Helmet Garchomp is absurdly good in this metagame. Highly recommend it.
Sharpedo @ Sharpedonite | Speed Boost
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe | Adamant
Super Fang / Waterfall / Crunch / Protect
Super Fang linked with any strong attack is so absurdly good in this metagame. I know some people have been recommending Assurance, as it's 120 Base Power if it's the second move of a link and the first hits, but with Strong Jaw, Crunch is just as powerful and has a chance to drop Defense. The reason why I linked Waterfall over Crunch is because you also get a flinch chance in case something like Quagsire lives and so that you can beat Clefable easily. Shit's dank, highly recommend it.
Victini @ Flame Plate | Victory Star
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe | Jolly
Flame Charge / Power-Up Punch / V-Create / Bolt Strike
Dragon Dance Victini, effectively. Also dank, also stupid powerful. V-Create drops Speed, but you make up for it with the Flame Charge boost. Has problems with Quagsire, but V-Create does like 75% to Clefable, so that's not a problem for it at all. Victini is really good as forcing switches, so it's really easy to boost with as well.
Also, Endure Rocky Helmet Garchomp is absurdly good in this metagame. Highly recommend it.
I've been running this set on Garchomp (Roar + Dragon Tail) and Skarmory (Roar + Whirlwind) recently. Garchomp's is better offensively (though you have to watch out for Fairies), but Skarmory is a bit better defensively. The strategy is really great against teams weak to SR, but its pretty lackluster otherwise.
Doesn't belly drum fail if you have max attack?
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/linked-237598143
What are some tips on getting past baton pass teams like this? I've faced like three and don't know the best way to counter/check it.
What are some tips on getting past baton pass teams like this? I've faced like three and don't know the best way to counter/check it.
I'm not sure how well it'd work, but I think that a priority Gale Wings Talonflame would effectively destroy this sort of team. The set that I like to use is:
Talonflame @
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252Atk / 252Spe / 4 HP
-Acrobatics
-Fly
-Roost
-Whatever
Hope I helped!
Thank you for being the first to actually give a convincing against flinch strategies. I'm still not 100%, but given that I don't use these strategies nor do I think that they are viable, I wouldn't mind them being banned for the uncompetive factor. What do I have to lose. I still think stall and all archetypes have ways around it, but I guess I won't complain not having to prepare for it if people are mad about the RNG (Even though it should always be prepared for naturally). But this won't stop Scarf Jirachi, and Fake-Turn which is worse to deal with and more competitively viable, other than being weak to Rocky Helmet.
So go ahead and ban King's Rock and Razor Claw if you hate it that much for being uncompetitive. I can't really complain.
But I'm still not convinced on Protect + Attack.
Shadow Sneak + King's Shield is a completely different story and I feel is/should be the main/only reason for anyone wanting to ban Protect + Attack links. This combo effectively gives Aegislash 60/150/150/150/150/60 stats all the time if you just keep spamming your link. King's Shield also decreases attack making Boost + Attack links less power full against it. This is why Shadow Sneak + King's Shield is used more then the unresisted power of Sacred Swords + Shadow Ball.
Talonflame with Protect + Brave Bird however is not all its hyped up to be. I'm gonna quote you here;
"Protect + BB or Protect + Acro can make mons without reliable recovery, priority, rocky helmet, or high bulk literally unviable. The fact that a mon can consistently eliminate / force a switch on so many mons that should be viable is the definition of overcentralization."
People need to realise that this is exactly what Brave Bird + Aerial does, only arguably better as the opponent needs even more bulk, as you effectively have Gale Wings + Parental Bond. Your problem is Talonflame, not Protect Talonflame.
People have argued that the reason Talonflame with Protect is uncompetive is that it effectively gives Talon "Free Turns", which is simply not true. It gives Talonflame another turn to live, it doesn't give it a free turn. Lets take one of the most effectively talonflame check and powerful megas, Mega Tyranitar with its Dragon Dance + Stone Edge combo for example. Tyranitar switches in to a Protect Brave Bird, next turn proceeds to use Dragon Dance + Stone Edge. Talonflame uses Brave Bird + Protect again because why not? Its a free turn right? So by the end of that turn your Talonflame has taken damage from Recoil and Sand, while doing minimal damage to Tyranitar and letting the opponent get a free Dragon Dance. If anything, Tyranitar is the one getting the "free turn". And given that you are never gonna win that war you either sack Talonflame or switch out giving away more free turns.
Any team that doesn't want to have its ass handed to it by 90% of the teams on ladder need at least 1 reliable Talonflame answer. Mega Tyranitar with Dragon Dance + Stone Edge, Aggron with Head Smash + Rock Polish, Relicanth with Head Smash + Rock Polish, Mega Ampharos with Heal Bell/Electric Terrain + Volt Switch, Rhyperior with Stealth Rock + Roar, Heatran with Stealth Rock + Roar, etc, etc.
And you no what's funny about all of these? They eat up Brave Bird like its nothing, and set up stats or hazards while threatening to KO Talon all in one turn. Who is getting the free turns? It certainly ain't talonflame.
Another interesting thing about these Talonflame checks/counters is that not one of them has reliable recovery. You know what wears them down a lot faster than Protect + Brave Bird? Brave Bird + Aerial Ace. Isn't that funny.
I believe it was mentioned a couple times how Talonflame with Protect can beat Mega Diancie 1v1. Who cares? Has anyone actually seen a Mega Diancie? Lets talk about pokemon that are actually relevant shall we?
Like Clefable. Standard Unaware Clefable can't switch into Brave Bird + Aerial Ace Talonflame, or it will get 2HKOed 100% of the time. But Protect + Brave Bird talonflame fails to 2HKO Clefable, meaning Clefable gets a free switch in and can start boosting with Cosmic Power + Moonlight. Note who is getting the free turns here.
Toxic Heal Gliscor has a decent chance (59% or guaranteed after SR) to get 2HKOed by Brave Bird + Aerial Ace Talonflame, but is only 4HKOed by Brave Bird + Protect. Also note that given its bulk and Poison Heal, Gliscor is able to run more sets than just Toxic Stall. I've actually seen a few running Defog + Stealth Rock Linked, then Roost and Earthquake as fillers. Not only does this set get "free turns" to set up SR vs Protect Talon, is also has no chance in hell of dying to Talon because it is running Roost.
Let me list all Talonflame Switch ins on the Checks Compendium and put them into the categories of "can switch into Protect Talon only", "can switch into Aerial Ace Talon only", "can switch into Both" and "can switch into neither. Note that this is Sharp Beak Jolly Talon, as it lets it switch moves for Aegi, and isn't Paralysed by Whimsy.
Switches into Protect Talon only: Gliscor, Slowbro, Mega Aerodactyl.
Switches into Aerial Ace Talon only: -
Switches into all Talonflame variants: Heatran, Mega Slowbro, Mega Manectric, Rotom-W, Tyranitar (Mega), Hippowdon, Omastar, Alomomola, Empoleon, Rhyperior, Tyrantrum, Aggron (Mega).
Cannot switch into either Talonflame: Mega Diancie, Garchomp, Kabutops.
Note that all of the counters that can switch into either variant are worn down much faster by Aerial Ace Talonflame.
Any pokemon not 2HKOed by Brave Bird with reliable recovery and can threaten to KO check Talonflame. There are a lot more pokemon that can 2 Brave Birds than there pokemon that can take 2 Brave Birds and 2 Aerial Aces.
Also just lastly I'd like to point out that there other Protect links that are also neither broken nor uncompetive and can actually be considered quite innovative.
Protect + Extreme Speed Dragonite is one I've seen used a bit, and is a fantastic pokemon to revenge kill Talonflame as it can guaranteed 2HKO it with band while out prioritising and Protecting itself from Brave Bird. It isn't at all broken because Extreme Speed only has 80 Base Power, isn't boosted by STAB, and is resisted by common types used to check Talon and Fake Turn. Also the "Free Turns" concept I've all ready stated is false.
Another one which I've used is Sucker Punch + Spiky Shield Cacturne. As it is a terrific stops to things like SD + Outrage Scarf Chomp, Fake Turn, Flinch users, Aegislash, and just dual physical attackers. A great blanket check to stop sweeps, and sets up spikes with the switches it forces. Is it OP or uncompetitive? No. Is you don't attack it you get free turns to do what ever. It is countered by the most common pokemon in the tier, Talonflame. Which can Out prioritise, OHKO, eat Seed Bombs and is immune to Spikes.
In conclusion: Ban King's Rock and Razor Claw if you have too, but it won't stop Scarf Jirachi and Fake-Turn.
Also don't ban Protect + Attack links. Consider banning Shadow Sneak + King's Shield link specifically.
Yeah volt/pass/turn is definitely one of the best strategies in Linked. The best way I've found of getting around it is dual screens. Let them gain all the momentum they want, they can't touch you. I use this kelfki set:
Klefki @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Thunder Wave
- Safeguard/Magnet Rise/Play Rough/Flash Cannon/Spikes
I like to pair it with Mega Gyara b/c mold breaker is great with all the Unawares running around; any DD Sweeper would do though. This is the best way I've found to beat momentum teams.
As far as dealing with lead scolipede, as well as baton pass in general, another option would be a fast scarfer such as Keldeo that could outspeed and OHKO (2hko?) most of their team. Link Scald and Hydro Pump to be able to do this, I prefer that link to others anyways. Hope this helps :]
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