Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKII

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I honestly do not think this is the end of new forms in Alola. Those leaks could very well come true. I'd wait out on calling the forms wrong for now.
Sorry, I meant the forms that we had seen. I thought I remembered them calling Sandslash too. But they did call Ninetails wrong for a fact

Am I the only one absolutely in love with Exeggutor-A?
Like, I just adore how absolutely stupid and silly it is. It's the same reason Klefki is my favourite Pokémon; I don't look at it seriously, because it's clearly not meant to be taken seriously. It's stupid and I love that it's stupid. I love it when GF does things like this.
^ this! Although I just liked Klefki purely by design, it was so simplistic. It's really neat though with Exeggutor, when you remember the 1999 artwork someone posted earlier and the fact that it's now part of the game series' canon.
 
According to the leaks, there's going to be a psychic bug butter free. I was thinking it needed this typing but I always thought it needed this as a mega to compliment beedrill. I do wonder how the change of location form is supposed to work...
 
I don't think the comparison to mega evolution is fair. Mega evolutions don't need items like life orb or whatever because they get pretty huge stats boost and possibly even a helpful ability. Take Mawile for example. It's mega evolution singlehandedly made it usable in ubers. On top of that, once mega evolution is activated, the pokemon stays that way for the rest of the battle. Z-moves, on the other hand, are just superpowered attacks that can only be used once per battle, at the expense of an item, and possibly a move slot. Are some pokemon gonna benefit from it? Probably. But I doubt every pokemon is gonna find use for it. And if z-moves aren't priority and/or can bypass things like substitute and protect, then a good prediction on your opponents part could cause you to effectively waste your z-move. Like I said, I'm sure some pokemon will find it useful, but it's a matter of deciding which ones, and whether or not it's worth running a gem for a z-move over something that could probably help that pokemon better.
 
Am I the only one absolutely in love with Exeggutor-A?
Like, I just adore how absolutely stupid and silly it is. It's the same reason Klefki is my favourite Pokémon; I don't look at it seriously, because it's clearly not meant to be taken seriously. It's stupid and I love that it's stupid. I love it when GF does things like this.
I also love it for the same reasons. It's also why I love Rotom-W.
 
Am I the only one absolutely in love with Exeggutor-A?
Like, I just adore how absolutely stupid and silly it is. It's the same reason Klefki is my favourite Pokémon; I don't look at it seriously, because it's clearly not meant to be taken seriously. It's stupid and I love that it's stupid. I love it when GF does things like this.
I like both those pokemon too, I think both of them have really clever designs in terms of inspiration. I like that Exeggutor looks more like an actual palm tree now too.
 
I have a feeling that only gen 1 pokemon will get Alola forms, possibly to cash in on the nostalgia factor and influx of old players that Pokemon Go brought in. It probably also has something to do with the compatibility. I'm not trying to say that this is a bad thing though. I'm just not sure how I'd feel about ALL of them getting new Alola forms, even though I do like the idea.

Also, gotta agree about Alola Exeggutor. It's so delightfully silly that I can't help but love it.
 
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Just got home from a job and I see there's a TON of stuff to analyze. I think for now I'm just going to Like an comment on posts (especially since I got over 15 pages to read):

Actually first I'm amazed to see some comments have over 40 Likes! That's deserving of some kind of badge. :P

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So... final starter evolutions confirmed?

Seems like it as that does really look like Mallow (not to mention their boiling a pot of water on Litten's final evo and Mallow is a cook. Does this also mean Mallow may become Ash's travelling companion for the Alola anime?). I'm okay with Rowlet's final evo, it's just the other two which sort of bother me.
At least Litten's is Fire/Dark instead of Fire/Fighting despite the wrestler theme. Still, I don't get why the wrestler theme and not having it be part Fighting. There wasn't a better way to represent a Fire/Dark type than a heel wrestler?
As for Popplio, I suppose its mid evolution could maybe make the transition make some sense. It goes from a circus performer seal(ion) to a siren? Where's the connection (aside both having a vague relation to being a performer, though its two different kinds of performances)?

Which does bring to mind a few certain humorous situations.

Magikarp used Hydro Vortex!

Too bad Magikarp doesn't know a Water-type move. Though it might be able to use the Normal or Flying-type super move if the Z-Move doesn't require the user to be the same type...

Guys, you don't understand. The new Exeggutor is based on TCG art from 1999.

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I also thought of the Pokemon on Valencia Island in the anime.

I just realized something: how the heck does Alola Vulpix evolve? Sandshrew evolves by level up and Exeggcute using a leaf stone would still make sense. But Vulpix uses a Fire Stone to evolve.

Dawn Stone? Icy Rock (Greninja'd, but still thought of it before seeing the comment)?

I wonder - are totem Pokémon going to be catchable? I mean, they're clearly not the same as standard wild Pokémon, but the only other time we couldn't catch a (technically) wild Pokémon was when Ghetsis's staff was interfering during the BW2 battle with Kyurem.

Going to guess no. GF is really shaking up the formula here so having wild, uncatchable "boss" Pokemon wouldn't surprise me.

Given how Protect heavy Doubles tends to be, it wouldn't surprise me if all Z-Moves broke Protect.

What about using a move that makes the user semi-invulnerable like Fly, Dig, Dive, or Shadow Force?

So functionally, Z-moves are essentially "Mega moves". But read this...

Key Items for Z-Moves

The Z-Ring fits on a Trainer’s arm, and Z-Crystals are set into it. If a Pokémon holds the same variety of Z-Crystal, the two will be able to resonate with one another. Crystals that correspond to each Pokémon type have been found in the Alola region.


According to the in-universe flavor, you need to keep a crystal in your bracelet, AND have your Pokemon hold an identical crystal, so they can match up and do the move. But if you remember from gen 6, a "Key Stone" was a thing that the characters wore to match up with the Pokemon's held Mega Stone. The player characters wore these in a bracelet as well.

Is it possible that you would have to choose between having a Mega or a Z-move on your team, because your character can only store 1 item in their bracelet at once? Or will they throw out the flavor logic and let you do both (maybe like the XY NPCs who stored their keystones in other jewelry not on their arms)?

Well wasn't their an image of the Z-Ring having a circle spot on the back of it that looks like the perfect size for a Key Stone? I want to say I don't think they would limit you, but GF is being very random that I don't know. You'd think giving a Pokemon an option of a Z-Move would combo nicely with another holding a Mega Stone so you'll now have 2 aces... but to GF is that one ace too many?

Does anybody else find the Totem Gumshoos summoning that Yungoos hilarious? It literally just comes falling out the sky and crashes to the ground with a grin. I'm laughing to myself at home and feeling like an idiot.

Well Donald Trumgoose always said he has created many jobs...

Nah. These "alolan" pokemon will evolve naturally into thier Alolan forms. If you want their orignal forms, you're going to have to transfer them. You can see this in the JP footage.

That doesn't mean they won't have a different evolution method. Honestly the Alola version of old Pokemon are essentially new Pokemon just using an old Pokemon as the basis.

hype hype hype hype

maths guy here with some base HP stats! (credit to smogon's calculator for helping me with this)

long Eggy - normally 95 base HP, now 91-107
Vulpix - normally 38, now 27-43
Ninetails - normally 73, now 63-78
^all of those are in range of the normal base HP

tl;dr - Alolan forms most likely have the same base stats as their regular forms.*

*obviously this is speculation

Maybe just for the HP stat, like how Mega Pokemon don't change HP. And yes, I know Zygarde increases HP but that looks to be a special case. Their might be a reason outside of battles to keep HP the same like possibly for breeding purposes.

The thing is: It's still probably a bit early to assume that gyms are confirmed out, imo. The Island Challenge could be something done alongside the gyms.

Indeed, once again lack of news doesn't mean it's not still there, it's just not getting focus. Of course this technically means Synchro is still a possibility...

Apparently the Japanese site explicitly mentions there are more than 4 Captains. Getting 8 is likely.

Actually I was going to mention if each island has a Captain and a Kahuna, that's your 8 Gym-like bosses right there. Course what happens after beating all the Kahunas?

Kiawe is a captain whose expertise is in Fire-type Pokémon. Together with his Marowak
Marowak Alola form is a fire type

And I bet it'll be base on a fire dancer (especially since Kiawe is a dance practitioner). (Greninja'd, but still thought of it before seeing the comment)

So, Oricorio got me wanting to look up what moves would fall under the purview of a dancing move. All together this includes:

Swords Dance
Petal Dance
Rain Dance
Feather Dance
Teeter Dance
Dragon Dance
Lunar Dance
Quiver Dance
Fiery Dance

Barring any Dance moves lost in translation I'm not aware of. Oricorio killing itself with Lunar Dance sounds hilarious.

I think it'll just stick to the status dances so Petal Dance and Fiery Dance is out. Lunar Dance self-KO still possible though.

I find the idea of Alola Forms really awesome, actually. I had advocated for something similar once (based on some Pokémon expressing area-exclusive pattern changes in the Anime), but I always thought it was going to be purely cosmetic. Instead, we find Game Freak once again using new mechanics to breathe new relevance into old-and-almost-discarded Pokémon.

The idea of complete type changes with Forms is also a good one, but I thought that was the stuff they'd use Mega Evolutions for. Tying Forms to hold items means complete flexibility with Form changes, with different Mega Stones adding different typings to the same Pokémon (As seen with Charizard and Mewtwo). Instead, they did the same in a completely different way, robbing Megas of that purpose. Oh well, I guess it could still be a thing. And either way, I'm all for Game Freak making old Pokémon relevant again. It keeps the "backlog" fresh, and reduces the need to constantly create more Pokémon. Here's hoping the Alola Forms also envelope some later-generation Pokémon. Since they weren't "refreshed" by Hidden Abilities, introduced after the "ban" on cross-generation evolutions, and almost forgotten in the Mega department, Gen V Pokémon in particular are due for some spruce-up.

I also had a similar idea, inspired from the Delta/Holon Pokemon. However I only had them change type instead of appearance, stats, and Abilities too (also I stuck to what type you could see them changing into, never would I have though of making the Vulpix or Sandshrew family Ice-type).

This one was telegraphed, so pokedex entries actually matter now?

Extreme Speed excavalier when?

I more imagine it might be the designers reading through dex entries and taking inspiration from them instead of making them matter.

Just curious if Z-crystals could be knocked off or not......

Mega Stones can't be knocked off so probably not.

Yeah and those dancing birds are also fire, grass, electric, and water. Oh wait.

Captains are Grass, Fire, Water Electric.
Oricorio is part Fire, Electric, Ghost, Psychic.

I'd say there's no reason they can't combine types, like maybe having Grass/Ghost and Water/Psychic (or Grass/Psychic and Water/Ghost). Since neither grouping has the Fairy-typing but the Electric maybe that type (and Fire) will be free to have a secondary type of its choosing (hoping for another Fire/Dragon).

My main problem with the new forms is that they don't exist anywhere else. Like hoenn and sinnoh yield some of the same Pokemon in the same form despite their drastically different climates. So the continuity is kinda broken, even in the new timeline.

But the thing with Alola is that its a secluded island chain far from any mainland. Hoenn is most likely close to the Kanto/Johto/Sinnoh regions that the Pokemon don't change that much. The Alola Pokemon are largly separated from their main stream relatives, thus giving them the unique opportunity to change.

*Watch as Sinnoh remakes come out and have "Sinnoh" versions of other region Pokemon*


Oh, the internet is LOVING Alola Exeggutor.

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I can't be the only one who thought this when I saw the hair?

Here.

does anyone think the new professor is cute ._.

Not cute per se...

PHEW! Okay, got through 10 pages. 7 more to go... for later.
 
I was doing some thinking on Z-Moves and I've come to the following conclusions:
1) It will likely be popular in VGC. With the item clause and bring-6-pick-4 format, I could see one 'mon being intended as a counter-nuke, intended to take down a specific threat.
2) Even if it isn't common at all in Singles, it will likely be something that all of us have to consider before making a move. "Did my opponent put a Z-Move on this 'mon? If so, what type?" This excites me.
3) You don't think that the Normal Z-Move will activate [type]ate abilities? If so, Sylveon and Aurorus just got a new toy.
 
I feel like Z-moves will probably be closer to the Pledge moves and the elemental hyper beams than Mega evolutions for singles. I can't speak for doubles but if Protect stops it then it'll be worse there. Seriously, it'll be a cool new addition to use in-game but I doubt you're gonna be seeing it on standard sets. It just has too many drawbacks and if you want a nuke there are tons of Pokemon available to do so without sacrificing a moveslot AND item.
 
Mega Evos had +100 BST and amazing abilities. They gave us the two most powerful unboosted physical mons in the entire game (M. Medicham + M. Mawile, whose Atk stats are maxed at 656 and 678 respectively).

Z-Moves is like, boosted Gen V's gems, but in a controlled state. Not quite the same comparison, since it's something we've already dealt with.

I'm not saying mega evolutions and z moves are equal. Back then, nobody knew about M-Medicham or M-Mawile. Nobody even knew about the +100 BST. There was a moment when the only thing we knew was "Pokémon can mega-evolve and you need to discard the item slot in order to use a mega stone". Then, comentaries like "hmmm you lose the item slot... is going to be better than life orb?"

Maybe the new Z-Moves are garbage, or maybe in a few months the Smogon comunity is banning them because they are broken. It's just a matter of time and see how it develops.
 
BTW, the descriptions of the Alolan forms really describe that actually real Darwinian evolution is still a thing in the Pokemon World. It describes that Vulpix was brought in by other humans but they ran off to the snowy mountain regions and evolved to thrive there. Meanwhile Sandshrew abandoned the deserts of Alola due to frequent volcano eruptions for the snowy mountains and evolved this form. So, in a few hundred/thousand years, these new forms may actually become completely separate Pokemon.
 
Really my main problem is with exeggutor. Everything about him. Yeah, he looks more like an actual tree, but it looks dumb (in my opinion) along with the head tail thing and the dragon typing makes absolutely no sense. I feel like they added it in just for variety, not on any actual basis. I cannot see any logical explanation for its dragon typing. I guess we'll wait and see what (if anything) they come up with.

Find this comment so amusing due to the fact that you're so upset over a coconut tree Pokemon having dragon-typing, which to you is "illogical." But then you have to remember that Exeggutor is a Coconut tree that evolves from some animal eggs and has random psychic powers. But for some reason dragon-typing is where things become too weird.

Still, I don't get why the wrestler theme and not having it be part Fighting. There wasn't a better way to represent a Fire/Dark type than a heel wrestler?

It's concept art shows it spitting smog/poison (into the face of it's opponent) so it seems like a dirty fighter. That's what Dark Type is all about. Sucker Punch, Feint Attack, etc.
 
BTW, the descriptions of the Alolan forms really describe that actually real Darwinian evolution is still a thing in the Pokemon World. It describes that Vulpix was brought in by other humans but they ran off to the snowy mountain regions and evolved to thrive there. Meanwhile Sandshrew abandoned the deserts of Alola due to frequent volcano eruptions for the snowy mountains and evolved this form. So, in a few hundred/thousand years, these new forms may actually become completely separate Pokemon.
I love it. It's a really interesting idea that a lot of people (myself included) have wanted to see in pokemon. And while I've seen people theorize Darwinian evolution in pokemon, I think this is the first time it's actually being alluded to.
 
I'm not saying mega evolutions and z moves are equal. Back then, nobody knew about M-Medicham or M-Mawile. Nobody even knew about the +100 BST. There was a moment when the only thing we knew was "Pokémon can mega-evolve and you need to discard the item slot in order to use a mega stone". Then, comentaries like "hmmm you lose the item slot... is going to be better than life orb?"

Maybe the new Z-Moves are garbage, or maybe in a few months the Smogon comunity is banning them because they are broken. It's just a matter of time and see how it develops.
Oh, I know. I'm just saying, we've dealt with the Z-Moves before, as gems in gen V; we just don't know how powerful they'll be this time. But in many respects they're the same just with respectable nerfs and added BP.
 
Z moves seem like they could be useful for setup sweepers. Since they are usually using attack or special attack boosting moves like quiver dance and swords dance, the life orb boost usually isn't needed and the one time attack could come in handy against said Pokemon's usual checks or counters. For example, a Swords Dance Talonflame could use a Fighting type Z-Crystal with the move Quick Guard to get past Tyranitar or a Grass Type Z-Crystal with Solar Beam to get past Specific Water-types like Bruxfish and Rotom-W.

That being said, I'm not sure you can even use these Z-Crystals in Link battles. An earlier trailer showed the Room where online battles take place and the trainer was nowhere to be seen.
 
Few things from me that aren't 100% clear from the trailer.

Are the Alolan pokemon still the same dex number? If so then we still don't have any 'new' Ice types yet, as I refuse to believe that snowy Alola only has 2 ice types in it - nor do we have any Alola Dark types announced yet. Although the official website has a 'Sandshrew as has been seen in the past' picture suggesting they'll keep their dex numbers it's still a little up in air.

Gumshoos - well as the official site says "Yungoos is not a Pokémon that is native to the Alola region. It was brought to the region to help deal with the explosive population of a certain other Pokémon, and now Yungoos are commonly seen around the Alola region" then obviously this evolved version uses it's detective skills to find the pokemon it's supposed to be culling. Also - we haven't been told which prolific pokemon has the explosive population either have we?

I love how the different Oricorio forms embody different dances to go with their different types - anyone think we'll see a Tierno cameo?

Lurantis might also be the first decent physical based mono-grass type in the game? It's signature move looks like the physical counterpart to Solarbeam which does make me speculate if we'll see physical counterparts to Fire Blast, Blizzard and Hydro Pump?

Also, that Ice move used by the Alolan Ninetales in the video - did that look like an attack or a status move to you guys? To me it looked like it might have been a Freeze move as I didn't see any accompanying damage or hear the damage sound. That could potentially be a pretty OP move unless they change the Freeze mechanics (maybe make it more like sleep?)

More surprising things - for being a chain of islands, we've had only 3 water types announced and one of those is Popplio, Wimpod is a bug water type which I'd assume we'll find in or around fresh water (going off real life) as opposed to the sea and Bruxish is our only new seafaring water pokemon we'll encounter in the wild? Hopefully there are a few more around with nice dual typings, or who knows - maybe we'll have some Alolan versions of older gen mons.
 
Still, I don't get why the wrestler theme and not having it be part Fighting. There wasn't a better way to represent a Fire/Dark type than a heel wrestler?
Few things from me that aren't 100% clear from the trailer.

Are the Alolan pokemon still the same dex number? If so then we still don't have any 'new' Ice types yet, as I refuse to believe that snowy Alola only has 2 ice types in it - nor do we have any Alola Dark types announced yet. Although the official website has a 'Sandshrew as has been seen in the past' picture suggesting they'll keep their dex numbers it's still a little up in air.

Most definitely. All forms are filed under "forms" in the Pokedex. See Shellos or Rotom.
 
I've been giving some consideration to Vulpix-A and Ninetales-A's movepool and what might be shared between them and their firey counterparts:
Shadow Ball is likely, considering nine tailed fox inspiration for the Vulpix line, as well as the Yuki-Onna esque feel of the Alola variants.
Will-o-Wisp is less likely than Shadow Ball, but the spectral and mysterious quality of this line is maintained (quite a few non-Fire-types have this move).

Are the Alolan pokemon still the same dex number?
Alternate forms and Megas have always had the same Dex numbers as their base forms (both regional and national), so I would be surprised if that changed.
 
My main problem with the new forms is that they don't exist anywhere else. Like hoenn and sinnoh yield some of the same Pokemon in the same form despite their drastically different climates. So the continuity is kinda broken, even in the new timeline. Really my main problem is with exeggutor. Everything about him. Yeah, he looks more like an actual tree, but it looks dumb (in my opinion) along with the head tail thing and the dragon typing makes absolutely no sense. I feel like they added it in just for variety, not on any actual basis. I cannot see any logical explanation for its dragon typing. I guess we'll wait and see what (if anything) they come up with.
With the genie out of the bottle, there's no reason why we couldn't have Sinnoh form Pokemon in a Gen IV remake. I can't remember whether it was confirmed or from a rumour/leak, but someone posted previously about the only way to access the old forms of some Pokemon will be transferring from VC RBY. If that's the case, I fully expect Alola forms to be restricted to Kanto natives (especially if RBY transfers are VGC legal while transfers from Gen V/VI are not), simply because that will be the only way to avoid removing Pokemon forms from the game by introducing Alola forms. That being said, when (and realistically, it's a 'when' not an 'if') GSC are released on VC, I'd now fully expect to see Sinnoh/Gen VIII forms of GSC Pokemon.

Also, I know it was mentioned previously in the thread, but there really are a bunch of little things starting to point towards a "Z Episode" postgame. Between Zygarde and the lack of mega evolution mention so far, it seems plausible that we might be making a visit to Kalos (home of Mega Evolution), and that's where we'll find out Mega Stones. Mega Evolution was absurdly powerful in game, so it would make sense if GF is trying to have a less trivial experience in the story to save all the Mega Stones for the postgame.
 
With the genie out of the bottle, there's no reason why we couldn't have Sinnoh form Pokemon in a Gen IV remake. I can't remember whether it was confirmed or from a rumour/leak, but someone posted previously about the only way to access the old forms of some Pokemon will be transferring from VC RBY. If that's the case, I fully expect Alola forms to be restricted to Kanto natives (especially if RBY transfers are VGC legal while transfers from Gen V/VI are not), simply because that will be the only way to avoid removing Pokemon forms from the game by introducing Alola forms.
Again, breeding as well as the fact that multiple forms can be programmed to appear in the wild, like Rotom in X and Y. I mean, I don't think they said that ALL non-Alola forms are exclusive to older games, just some. I can totally see them having Ninetales-A in the mountains, while having regular Ninetales elsewhere.
 
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