Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

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OverlordDerp said:
To think, just two weeks ago, no sane person would have made this claim.

Pokemon is weird, man.
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And we are talking a Pokemon with more overall bulk (~8% better physically, ~5% worse specially) than Eviolite Chansey if running its common specially defensive spread. And with actually nice offensive stats, a really solid boosting move and the best STAB a physical Ground-type Pokemon could ever wish to have.

(Zen Headbutt modified as to have the same BP as Psychic)

0 Atk Mew Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 141-166 (21.9 - 25.8%) -- 2.6% chance to 4HKO
0 Atk Mew Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Zygarde: 82-97 (12.8 - 15.2%) -- possible 7HKO

0 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 46-55 (7.1 - 8.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 73-87 (11.4 - 13.6%) -- possible 8HKO

How we underestimated something with that bulk is anyone's guess.
 
Goodstyle said:
Ok, Zygarde needs to go. Holy mother of God is it overpowered.
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I agree. Maybe it's just my team, but having to rely on a Taunt/Disable combo to deal with it wasn't exactly fun lol.

Maybe the problem isn't Zygarde itself, just Thousand Arrows meaning it can afford to run Coil/DD and RestTalk, on top of it's insane bulk.
 
Karxrida said:
Can we please stop with asking for move bans when it's pretty clear that the Pokémon itself is the problem? I doubt Zygarde 10% and 50% with Aura Break are unbeatable gods with Arrows.
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Yeah, I don't know why I didn't think of just removing Power Construct from the equation, I derped hard
 
Karxrida said:
Can we please stop with asking for move bans when it's pretty clear that the Pokémon itself is the problem? I doubt Zygarde 10% and 50% with Aura Break are unbeatable gods with Arrows.
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Agreed. It should be OK to use Zygarde 10%. Power Construct should be banned from OU (and UU, in case any of the other Zygarde forms drop).
However, kinda hard to have a complex ban on Smogon.
 
KaioNabuco said:
Agreed. It should be OK to use Zygarde 10%. Power Construct should be banned from OU (and UU, in case any of the other Zygarde forms drop).
However, kinda hard to have a complex ban on Smogon.
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In a way situation is unique because you literally get new Pokemon once ability kicks in. In a way kind of like situational mega transformation. Personally I wouldn't mind either way, I just say it the way I see it, I'm neutral on this subject.
 
Has anyone brought up the fact that Hyper Training doesn't affect Hidden Power, and therefore all Hidden Power types can now run Max IV's? I don't think this has been implemented on showdown yet but it's pretty cool even if it just equates to pokemon getting a few extra speed ties.

Karxrida said:
Can we please stop with asking for move bans when it's pretty clear that the Pokémon itself is the problem? I doubt Zygarde 10% and 50% with Aura Break are unbeatable gods with Arrows.
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No, but Arrows is a huge buff to standard Zygarde in it's own right. The thing has always been really bulky and I had a lot of success in XYORAS running DD/Coil, Glare, Extremespeed and Earthquake. The only things typically shutting that down after a few boosts were Skarmory and Gengar, neither of which are a problem anymore, though Decidueye is a problem now. That's still not enough to make it Uber, I agree, but it's pretty good.
 
KaioNabuco said:
Agreed. It should be OK to use Zygarde 10%. Power Construct should be banned from OU (and UU, in case any of the other Zygarde forms drop).
However, kinda hard to have a complex ban on Smogon.
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What would be complex about it? Just ban Power Construct. It's just like banning Moody or Shadow Tag.

It's different than banning just Speed Boost Blaziken and allowing Blaze Blaziken.
 
Scrolled through all pages, and i think i've made a pretty anti-meta team without thinking, because it seems everyone brags about Pheromosa being broken and i have absolute zero problems with it lol

That said, Buzzwole is doing great now. Look at this simple set:

Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Leech Life
- Earthquake/Thunder Punch
- Taunt


This meta seems to lack the flying spam it had before, so it has an easy time Bulking Up against pretty much anything physical, and Taunt means most defensive pokes are screwed at the sight of Buzzwole (take that Toxapex). It's typing does many favors for it, resisting Ground, Fighting, Bug and Grass without being weak to Rock attacks, turning many pokes like Pheromosa, Landorus-Therian and most things that cerries ground moves into set up fodders.
The the magic of Leech Life happens, getting you healthy again (and it recovers lots of life due to high pretty high attack). Beast Boost is great, sometimes you won't need that much Bulk Ups to roll through a team.

Even without EVs, after a BU it reaches 472 attack and 471 defense! It's so bulky it can turn Zygarde-Complete into a Complete set up fodder lol
 
M BLADE said:
Scrolled through all pages, and i think i've made a pretty anti-meta team without thinking, because it seems everyone brags about Pheromosa being broken and i have absolute zero problems with it lol

That said, Buzzwole is doing great now. Look at this simple set:

Buzzwole @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Leech Life
- Earthquake/Thunder Punch
- Taunt


This meta seems to lack the flying spam it had before, so it has an easy time Bulking Up against pretty much anything physical, and Taunt means most defensive pokes are screwed at the sight of Buzzwole (take that Toxapex). It's typing does many favors for it, resisting Ground, Fighting, Bug and Grass without being weak to Rock attacks, turning many pokes like Pheromosa, Landorus-Therian and most things that cerries ground moves into set up fodders.
The the magic of Leech Life happens, getting you healthy again (and it recovers lots of life due to high pretty high attack). Beast Boost is great, sometimes you won't need that much Bulk Ups to roll through a team.

Even without EVs, after a BU it reaches 472 attack and 471 defense! It's so bulky it can turn Zygarde-Complete into a Complete set up fodder lol
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It should be running Roost.
 
I wonder if we could get away with banning Zygarde (50%) but keeping Zygarde (10%). It seems harder to cheese teams with those significantly lower defenses.
 
KingKdot said:
Does anyone have the list of megas that we can't use yet? Don't see it posted anywhere.
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Available
Absol, Aerodactyl, Alakazam, Blastoise, Charizard X/Y, Garchomp, Gengar, Glalie, Gyarados, Kangaskhan, Lucario, Metagross, Pinsir, Sableye, Salamence, Scizor, Sharpedo, Slowbro, Venusaur
Unavailable
Abomasnow, Aggron, Altaria, Ampharos, Audino, Banette, Beedrill, Blaziken, Camerupt, Diancie, Gallade, Gardevoir, Heracross, Houndoom, Latias, Latios, Lopunny, Manectric, Mawile, Medicham, Mewtwo X/Y, Pidgeot, Sceptile, Steelix, Swampert, Tyranitar
 
Ema Skye said:
What would be complex about it? Just ban Power Construct. It's just like banning Moody or Shadow Tag.

It's different than banning just Speed Boost Blaziken and allowing Blaze Blaziken.
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It's not just like banning Moody or Shadow Tag though. Those abilities were either overpowered or uncompetitive regardless of who used them. A Bibarel can still sweep through Ubers with Moody.

Power Construct isn't an overpowered or uncompetitive ability though. If a Bibarel got Power Construct, it'd be nifty but certainly not powerful, let alone overpowered.

So any ban on Power Construct would be intrinsically linked to how it interacts with Zyguard - it's unfair and incorrect to say that it's broken as an ability by itself.

At that point it becomes a ban on Power Construct + Zyguard, which is just like a ban on Speed Boost + Blaziken or Protean + Greninja.
 
Icrosonze said:
So any ban on Power Construct would be intrinsically linked to how it interacts with Zyguard - it's unfair and incorrect to say that it's broken as an ability by itself.

At that point it becomes a ban on Power Construct + Zyguard, which is just like a ban on Speed Boost + Blaziken or Protean + Greninja.
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I don't think Blaziken or Greninja are a precedent for this, as other pokemon get both Speed Boost and Protean, whereas no other pokemon gets Power Construct. There is absolutely nothing that's negatively effected by banning Power Construct.
 
Icrosonze said:
It's not just like banning Moody or Shadow Tag though. Those abilities were either overpowered or uncompetitive regardless of who used them. A Bibarel can still sweep through Ubers with Moody.

Power Construct isn't an overpowered or uncompetitive ability though. If a Bibarel got Power Construct, it'd be nifty but certainly not powerful, let alone overpowered.

So any ban on Power Construct would be intrinsically linked to how it interacts with Zyguard - it's unfair and incorrect to say that it's broken as an ability by itself.

At that point it becomes a ban on Power Construct + Zyguard, which is just like a ban on Speed Boost + Blaziken or Protean + Greninja.
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I really, really don't think anyone would care about that. The ban isn't complex. Just don't use power construct in OU. Only one pokemon can have power construct in the first place, which is broken on it, so yes, I would say it is a broken ability. Banning power construct but not Zygarde would make more people happy in the long run, because Aura Break Zygarde could still be used in OU.

EDIT: Besides, you can't even say power construct would be broken on another pokemon. It's one of those "change to another forme when a certain condition happens" ability, so it literally wouldn't work on any pokemon that wasn't Zygarde.
 
OverlordDerp said:
To think, just two weeks ago, no sane person would have made this claim.

Pokemon is weird, man.
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It's seriously so stupid. A pokemon with that bulk and typing that gets access to Coil and Thousand Arrows just isn't fair. It's taking like, 30% from ice beams and with the Rest stall set what even damages it?
 
What are people using to check this monstrosity anyway? Mostly talking about the max SpDef investment Coil variants. I'm not really sure what the opposing team's plan is for beating this most of the time since it wins me so many games I don't deserve to win. I'm seeing a lot of Hippowdons and stuff using Whirlwind to remove the Coil boosts, but it really just delays the inevitable: a last man standing Zygarde sweep. No physical attacker is going to work unless you get a lucky crit off a Dragon Claw/Ice Punch. Some people have resorted to putting Unaware Clefable or Unaware Quagsire on every team. Most teams are using a powerful special attacker with a super effective STAB like Latios, Magaerna, Lele or a strong Ice Beam off say, a Genesect. But even these typically deal ~70% damage while the defender of the ecosystem smacks them hard in return with Thousand Arrows. Honestly it feels like the only real way to not get ran over by thing is to wear the 50% form down to ~60% and prevent it from transforming, though that can easily get played around.
 
KingKdot said:
Does anyone have the list of megas that we can't use yet? Don't see it posted anywhere.
Click to expand...
Available
Absol, Aerodactyl, Alakazam, Garchomp, Gengar, Glalie, Gyarados, Kangaskhan, Lucario, Metagross, Pinsir, Sableye, Salamence, Scizor, Sharpedo, Slowbro
Unavailable
Abomasnow, Aggron, Altaria, Ampharos, Audino, Banette, Beedrill, Blastoise, Blaziken, Camerupt, Charizard X/Y, Diancie, Gallade, Gardevoir, Heracross, Houndoom, Latias, Latios, Lopunny, Manectric, Mawile, Medicham, Mewtwo X/Y, Pidgeot, Sceptile, Steelix, Swampert, Tyranitar, Venusaur

not many options for megas sadly :[

jk the Kanto starters are unobtainable in-game, but their Mega Stones are obtainable which is weird.
 
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New World Order said:
What are people using to check this monstrosity anyway? Mostly talking about the max SpDef investment Coil variants. I'm not really sure what the opposing team's plan is for beating this most of the time since it wins me so many games I don't deserve to win. I'm seeing a lot of Hippowdons and stuff using Whirlwind to remove the Coil boosts, but it really just delays the inevitable: a last man standing Zygarde sweep. No physical attacker is going to work unless you get a lucky crit off a Dragon Claw/Ice Punch. Some people have resorted to putting Unaware Clefable or Unaware Quagsire on every team. Most teams are using a powerful special attacker with a super effective STAB like Latios, Magaerna, Lele or a strong Ice Beam off say, a Genesect. But even these typically deal ~70% damage while the defender of the ecosystem smacks them hard in return with Thousand Arrows. Honestly it feels like the only real way to not get ran over by thing is to wear the 50% form down to ~60% and prevent it from transforming, though that can easily get played around.
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I'm testing Scarf Tapu Mele. I did orginally have Lycanroc Midnight with Counter Sash but it's incredibly gimicky. Mele can at least block Extreme Speed, although you're left helpless against DD variants
 
New World Order said:
What are people using to check this monstrosity anyway? Mostly talking about the max SpDef investment Coil variants. I'm not really sure what the opposing team's plan is for beating this most of the time since it wins me so many games I don't deserve to win. I'm seeing a lot of Hippowdons and stuff using Whirlwind to remove the Coil boosts, but it really just delays the inevitable: a last man standing Zygarde sweep. No physical attacker is going to work unless you get a lucky crit off a Dragon Claw/Ice Punch. Some people have resorted to putting Unaware Clefable or Unaware Quagsire on every team. Most teams are using a powerful special attacker with a super effective STAB like Latios, Magaerna, Lele or a strong Ice Beam off say, a Genesect. But even these typically deal ~70% damage while the defender of the ecosystem smacks them hard in return with Thousand Arrows. Honestly it feels like the only real way to not get ran over by thing is to wear the 50% form down to ~60% and prevent it from transforming, though that can easily get played around.
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Max phys def Mimikyu w/ Disguise, WoW, Taunt, Pain Split, Play Rough seems pretty good against it
 
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