np: USUM UU Stage 7.1 - Controversy (Breloom banned from UU)

[Mysil]

Solution to avoiding the burns then - wish support and this.
252+ Atk Liechi Berry Scizor Natural Gift (100 BP Grass) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 384-456 (97.4 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Thats a Cool lure for sure. But doesnt explain how fury cutter beats quag.

Regarding a scizor suspect. I agree it can be annoying accounting for since if you dont keep it in mind you can be damn sure its gonna 6-0 u. But at the same time there are alot of good options keeping it in check like cobalion, volcanion just to mention some. And I think some Mons like mega aero could get very frustrating without having scizor as an option. So while I think removing scizor could be refreshing, I suspect it would do more damage than good

 

[Nightingales]

Thats a Cool lure for sure. But doesnt explain how fury cutter beats quag

Oh it wasn’t gonna, I just wanted to come up with a cool anti-quag lure.

 

[justdrew]

I think this discussion about a Scizor suspect is interesting and I'm going to make a post of my own on Scizor. I am going to do a post similar to what Sage did for Breloom, shout out to him!

Overview

Scizor has been in UU all of Generation 7 which has been about one and a half years. Now any Pokemon that has been in a given tier for one and a half years and is consistently on the top of usage stats, I would call that a staple of that tier. I think it goes without saying that Scizor is a staple of UU. Looking at its cumulative stats for UUPL, Scizor was the second most used Pokemon behind Latias with 82 uses, 34.75% usage, and a 48.78% win rate. Compared to its strong priority spamming friend Breloom, Scizor had nearly 3 times the usage and a 10% greater win rate. When you compare Breloom and Scizor they are quite similar. Breloom, of course, is faster with access to Spore and has a different dual typing than Scizor but has the same attack stat and Swords Dance. Scizor has much better bulk, access to Roost, is a tad slower, and of course has no Spore and different dual typing. I prefer Scizor over Breloom any day because Scizor has plenty of opportunities to sweep with recovery and much better bullk. Breloom on the other hand could switch in on very few Pokemon, even switching in on Water-types like Swampert was a risk with a burn chance. I will share my opinion on whether Scizor should be suspected at the end of the post.

Scizor walls, checks, and threats

Consistent Defensive Answers:

EDIT: After a long discussion with the UU room this is what I discovered. Apparently there are consistent defensive answers to Scizor. Every time I bring up a Pokemon there seems to be one scenario where the Pokemon loses to Scizor. I was even told that Quagsire isn't a good check to Scizor. There are a bunch of solid checks but apparently there is only one consistent defensive answer, Pyukumuku.


Solid Checks:

(Pretend that Marowak is Alolan form)

All of these Pokemon can safely come in on multiple Scizor moves. Most of them fear Knock Off and Super Power from either Choice Band Scizor or a Swords Dance variant. These Pokemon have the capabilities of walling Scizor, forcing it out, or KO'ing it in many scenarios. Although they are not 100% fool proof switch ins, they perform well against Scizor.

Soft Checks and RKers:

Honestly any Pokemon with a Fire-type move that outspeeds Breloom, or resists Bullet Punch, or learns powerful special attacks and is faster, soft checks Scizor. I'm not putting any Pokemon on more than one list but many of these Pokemon fit more than one category. All of these Pokemon are powerful special attackers or Fire-types that resist Bullet Punch and can easily revenge kill an unboosted Scizor.

Lures:

Any Pokemon with an Eject Button paired with a Magneton lures Scizor. Any Pokemon with decent special attack thats either Dragon-, Ice-, or Fairy-type can lure Scizor with Hidden Power Fire. The one difficult thing with Scizor lures is that all of them have been established as possible Scizor lures which makes it difficult to actually lure Scizor.

Niche Options:

There are probably more niche options out there or maybe I mentioned some options that you consider niche. Either way Talonflame is able to resist Scizor's STAB attacks while Chesnaut is just super bulky and can Roar away Scizor.

Conclusion

Although a Scizor suspect isn't an awful idea, I think it will be a waste of time for the tier. Scizor has been in the tier so long and I feel that its precense is required to keep other checks in threat. Such threats include Mega Aerodactyl, Terrakion, and Mega Altaria. Scizor is a strong Pokemon and there is no denying its versatility and ability to be on most team types. Maybe some of you disagree with me but right now I think Scizor has a healthy place in the UU meta. Thanks for reading!

 

[Jaajgko]

Nice.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Fury Cutter's a very niche point when establishing an argument for a Scizor suspect. From what I understand, the move is almost exclusively for stall and has no consistent applications against other playstyles. Also, the actual chance of you hitting all three hits is 85%. Correct me if I'm wrong, but since it requires that at least one Fury cutter to miss, the accuracy rate is additive (the percent change of the 1st OR 2nd OR 3rd missing).

1 - (0.05 + 0.05 + 0.05) = 1 - 0.15 = 0.85

Now, using the proof of Effective Base Power (Proof), Fury Cutter at maximum stacks is still stronger than something like Bug Bite:

160 * 0.85= 136
60 * 100 = 60

Running a Base 160 Bug move on Adamant LO Scizor does in fact 2HKO Quagsire and messes up most Pokemon that aren't Steel-resistant. However, this 2HKO scenario is entirely reliant on hitting the fourth hit, which going with my previous assumption, would lower the success rate to 80% on the hit. Furthermore, the 2HKO assumption isn't really realistic on Alomomola since Protect will force Fury Cutter to reset back to Stage 1. This isn't also mentioning that Balance and Offense teams will rarely, if ever, give you that amount of time to set up Fury Cutter to maximum stacks. You could solve the issue by running an Accuracy boosting item on Scizor to guarantee consistency, but sapping power out of his main STAB with no overall benefit is a risky trade-off

Although I think Fury Cutter is a cute idea to toy with on Scizor, I don't think the scenario is ever realistic to the point that we should be genuinely worried about it. If Fury Cutter was considered that good as Pif makes it out to be, why wasn't it used on M-Scizor to break stall back in Gen VI (when Fury Cutter was buffed to 40 BP)? It's an entertaining thought on paper that rarely works in practice.

 

[Moutemoute]

Please guys, chill out. Breloom has just been banned and you already talk about a new Suspect Test.
I think we should wait a little bit because the metagame need to take a rest..

 

[Merritt]

Also, the actual chance of you hitting all three hits is 85%. Correct me if I'm wrong, but since it requires that at least one Fury cutter to miss, the accuracy rate is additive (the percent change of the 1st OR 2nd OR 3rd missing).

1 - (0.05 + 0.05 + 0.05) = 1 - 0.15 = 0.85

This isn't how the math works for this kind of problem, for future reference.

What you're looking for is (0.95)^3, since you need to hit the 95% chance three times in a row (explained in the hide tag below), which is 85.7%. While certainly close, that's partly a factor of a low requirement (only hitting three times in a row) and high accuracy. If we were to do the odds of scald not burning over two turns for example your formula would be 1 - (0.3 + 0.3) = 1 - 0.6 = 40%. The actual number is a 49% chance of not burning over two turns. Similarly, if we were to see how likely it is for Fury Cutter to hit 5 times in a row we don't end up with 75%, but 77%.

And that's all for the math tangent.

Deeper explanation

So the reason why it's [chance to happen]^[number of times you want to check] is like follows. The first time, there's a 95% chance for it to hit, and a 5% chance to miss. If it misses, no need to keep going, it's already missed.

If it hits (95% chance), then we can check for another 95% chance to hit and 5% to miss. However, since we don't need to worry about the 5% chance to miss from earlier, it's a 95% chance on the 95% of the time the move hit, and so on and so forth.

To take this to a relatable example and explain why the [chance of happening] isn't additive, let's look at a coin. You want to know the chance of flipping heads twice in a row. Obviously each flip, has a 50% chance. If the chance was additive, then the chance of getting two heads in a row would look like 1 - (0.5 + 0.5) = 0. Obviously you can flip two heads in a row, so this is incorrect.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Consistent Defensive Answers:

And I think this illustrates my point.

These are consistent defensive answers to Scizor meaning that they consistently check/wall it. Frankly there are some more Pokemon that you could argue are consistent defensive answers but I think these are enough. pokeisfun made a very valuable point when talking about Quick Attack and Fury Cutter. Scizor does have ways to beat some of these Pokemon, however most of the time these Pokemon do a perfect job checking it. Sets like Fightium-Z are able to nuke Mega Aggron, Hippowdon, and Swampert which makes those Pokemon innefective checks some of the time. With that said, were looking at 12 consistent defensive answers right now, I think if a Pokemon has 14 consistent defensive answers it shouldn't be deemed "broken"

Pretty solid list generally speaking, at least at first glance, but upon closer inspection I can definitely spot some holes.

-Doublade cannot switch in for fear of Knock Off.

-Hippowdon and Aggron both get nuked by the Z-Superpower set, which, while not a hugely omnipotent set, is definitely a strong set to watch out for, making them not as consistent as you would imply.

-Volcanion, Swampert and Tentacruel can wall Scizor comfortably, BUT they are eligible to be worn down due to an unfortunate lack of reliable recovery, especially Volcanion due to its Rock weakness.

-Now don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with using more uncommon niche mons. But at this stage in the meta, Pyukumuku and Mantine receive minimal usage in high level ladder and tournament play, and are generally hard to fit on teams. Also, it's worth noting that Seismitoad got a usage spike almost entirely due to being able to function as a decent offensive lure for Breloom, and now that that thing's gone, it'll almost surely fade back into obscurity. People shouldn't have to try to cram Pokemon like these on their teams for a shot at beating something like Scizor.

-And I KNOW that we are not supposed to speculate about future metagames, I really do. But the July shifts are not far away at this point, and if the trends from May keep up this month, there is a good chance we will lose Gliscor very soon, further shrinking this list filled with mostly shaky checks.

Lures:

Any Pokemon with an Eject Button paired with a Magneton lures Scizor. Any Pokemon with decent special attack thats either Dragon-, Ice-, or Fairy-type can lure Scizor with Hidden Power Fire. The one difficult thing with Scizor lures is that all of them have been established as possible Scizor lures which makes it difficult to actually lure Scizor.

Ok, but lemme ask you this: How relevant would Eject Button + Magneton lures be without Scizor? If it lured tons and tons of other things, sure, but it's basically there for primarily Scizor. Other Steels exist, but you never see people use crap like that to check them. In fact, it once again hurts the argument by showing the lengths you have to go to prepare for one Pokemon. Lures are like band-aids on a gunshot wound: They will eventually peel off and become useless once Scizor users learn about and prepare for them. They are fun, but should NOT be treated as reliable counterplay.

Niche Options:

There are probably more niche options out there or maybe I mentioned some options that you consider niche. Either way Talonflame is able to resist Scizor's STAB attacks while Chesnaut is just super bulky and can Roar away Scizor.

Again, I love seeing some underused mons get some spotlight in any tier, but advocating their use to specifically check one Pokemon does not speak highly as to the healthiness of the Pokemon they are intended to check.

Although a Scizor suspect isn't an awful idea, I think it will be a waste of time for the tier. Scizor has been in the tier so long and I feel that its precense is required to keep other checks in threat. Such threats include Mega Aerodactyl, Terrakion, and Mega Altaria.

I have no comment on the rest of the closing paragraph, but this... No. This is a freaking abysmal argument. If the community has screamed for a suspect for an eternity at this point without letting up and the suspect comes and people think Scizor is broken, we should not keep it just to keep some potential threats in check. If Scizor needs to leave and these Pokemon became broken as a result of Scizor leaving, we just suspect and/or ban them if we deem it necessary.

Please guys, chill out. Breloom has just been banned and you already talk about a new Suspect Test.
I think we should wait a little bit because the metagame need to take a rest..

Giving a bit of time for the meta to settle, ok, fair enough. But in the meantime, I still think it's worth the discussion. Scizor has been long overdue for a look-at due to all the other shit UU has had to deal with like the countless absurd drops and re-tests. Nobody can deny that UU is currently in a highly volatile state with tons of threats to check and not enough slots to check them, and many people feel Scizor is a huge contributor to this constrained metagame that has not received proper scrutiny. Heck, UU Open coming up should only serve as more of an incentive to act fast and make a decision on a matter that has been discussed for a year and a half now.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Breloom was just unbanned so wait a bit please:

We've had Scizor in the tier for year(s)? Much of that without Breloom? And everyone knows the leaders always are hesistant to have tests during tournaments? No reason I see to pussyfoot around it, I've wanted Scizor tested for months now and I somehow doubt Swampert and Empoleon being better now is changing that.

Fury cutter stuff, just fury cutter as it switches in and then again as it recovers or Scalds, then you become unwallable by Quagsire.

itsjustdrew thank you for helping us see the forests over the trees

 

[brodudeguy1]

it'sjustdrew, many of those "consistent switch ins" are not able to switch consistely switch in, since they take high damage and are unable to do high damage in return.
Alomolala, gliscor, hippodawn, seismitoad, and swampert are not able to consistently swtich in to sd scizor throughout a game.

Alomoalala: Has to wish and hope one of its teammates can survive the next move.
Gliscor: Gets one earthquake in before dying to two bullet punches.
Hippodawn: Can whirlwind scizor out after taking a +2 bug bite, but will be will be left with under half health for the rest of the game, and will be unable to check scizor for the rest of the game.
Seismitoad: Takes massive damage from bug bite and has to rely on a scald burning.
Swampert: has hippodawn's problem.

This post does not mean that I want a scizor suspect. I think scizor is borderline broken, but should not suspected because it would create a
cause / effect chain of multiple suspects down the road. This would happen because scizor is our go-to answer to many extremely powerful offensive threats. There are two pokemon I can name right off the bat that might become too good if scizor gets banned:

1. Mega altaria: This thing becomes a pain in the ass to revenge kill if scizor gets banned. This would immensely restrict teambuilding.
2. Terrakion: Rock polish terrakion would become very hard to revenge kill, ecpecially for offensive teams.

 

[Yung Dramps]

I wanna like brodude's post, but...

This post does not mean that I want a scizor suspect. I think scizor is borderline broken, but should not suspected because it would create a
cause / effect chain of multiple suspects down the road. This would happen because scizor is our go-to answer to many extremely powerful offensive threats. There are two pokemon I can name right off the bat that might become too good if scizor gets banned:

1. Mega altaria: This thing becomes a pain in the ass to revenge kill if scizor gets banned. This would immensely restrict teambuilding.
2. Terrakion: Rock polish terrakion would become very hard to revenge kill, ecpecially for offensive teams.

sigh

Read my previous post to see why this argument fails. TL;DR broken should N E V E R be relied on to check broken unless the circumstances are just THAT extreme: If threats become broken and more shit needs to be banned after one thing is banned, just do it if it means a healthier meta.

That's it for Scizor posts from me, unless someone else comes in and says something stupid. For me, it's up to the council to decide what happens next.

 

[DiscoDucky]

This isn't how the math works for this kind of problem, for future reference.

What you're looking for is (0.95)^3, since you need to hit the 95% chance three times in a row (explained in the hide tag below), which is 85.7%. While certainly close, that's partly a factor of a low requirement (only hitting three times in a row) and high accuracy. If we were to do the odds of scald not burning over two turns for example your formula would be 1 - (0.3 + 0.3) = 1 - 0.6 = 40%. The actual number is a 49% chance of not burning over two turns. Similarly, if we were to see how likely it is for Fury Cutter to hit 5 times in a row we don't end up with 75%, but 77%.

And that's all for the math tangent.

Deeper explanation

So the reason why it's [chance to happen]^[number of times you want to check] is like follows. The first time, there's a 95% chance for it to hit, and a 5% chance to miss. If it misses, no need to keep going, it's already missed.

If it hits (95% chance), then we can check for another 95% chance to hit and 5% to miss. However, since we don't need to worry about the 5% chance to miss from earlier, it's a 95% chance on the 95% of the time the move hit, and so on and so forth.

To take this to a relatable example and explain why the [chance of happening] isn't additive, let's look at a coin. You want to know the chance of flipping heads twice in a row. Obviously each flip, has a 50% chance. If the chance was additive, then the chance of getting two heads in a row would look like 1 - (0.5 + 0.5) = 0. Obviously you can flip two heads in a row, so this is incorrect.

Thanks for the correction. I had a feeling something felt off. My brain's been a bit fried after work today.

Nonetheless, the point with Fury Cutter still stands.

Fury cutter stuff, just fury cutter as it switches in and then again as it recovers or Scalds, then you become unwallable by Quagsire.

Fury Cutter doesn't exist on the damage calc, so the following will be in terms of Bug Bite but with edited Base Powers:
First Stack: 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 113-134 (28.6 - 34%) -- 98.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Quag does nothing. 100 - 34 + 6 = 72%
Second Stack: 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 149-177 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Quag recovers. 72 - 44.9 + 50 + 6 = 83%
Third Stack: 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 298-352 (75.6 - 89.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
The third stack is calculated by setting Quagsire's HP to 83% on the calculator. Do not forget that you have roughly 85% chance of landing 3 hits and 81% of landing four hits consecutively.

Your situation is also assumes that the opponent doesn't know how to deal with Fury Cutter. What's stopping a player from switching out to Alomomola on the second stack? Is it being trapped? Are we assuming that the player is bad?
Second Stack: 252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Bug Bite vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 156-185 (32.4 - 38.4%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Alolomola does nothing.
Alomomola protects. Fury Cutter fails and is reset back to 40 BP.

It should also be noted that Fury Cutter has 32 PP, which assuming an attempt for 3 stacks, limits Scizor to roughly 10 ten attempts, not counting the potential stack-breaking from Fury Cutter misses.

What if we ran Wide Lens and forgo Life Orb to guarantee that every Fury Cutter hits?
First Stack: 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 87-103 (22 - 26.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Quag does nothing. 100 - 27 + 6 = 79%
Second Stack: 252+ Atk Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 115-136 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Quag recovers. 72 - 35 + 50 + 6 = 93%
Third Stack: 252+ Atk Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 229-271 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The third stack is calculated by setting Quagsire's HP to 93% on the calculator.

Essentially, without LO, your Quagsire killing claim fails.
The calcs above are relatively strong evidence against the claim that Fury Cutter breaks BlissAloQuag stall outright, pokeisfun

 

[pokemonisfun]

You run the item metronome, glad to see I can still make one post about one set and see UU's most prominent thread be derailed by 15 posts

 

[xMarth]

I'd like to share a Scizor set I've been using pretty well recently. This set beats most of Scizor's more consistent checks and I think it really shows just how versatile Scizor can be because I firmly believe Scizor can be adapted for any check we have.

Scizor @ Normalium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Double-Edge
- Swords Dance

+2 252+ Atk Scizor Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 374-441 (106.2 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Poison Heal
+2 252+ Atk Scizor Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 409-482 (109.3 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Scizor Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Tentacruel: 434-511 (119.5 - 140.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Scizor Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Moltres: 249-293 (77.5 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Scizor Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Moltres: 237-279 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Scizor Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 300-353 (101 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Scizor Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 350-412 (87.2 - 102.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Scizor Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 377-444 (78.3 - 92.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Scizor Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primarina: 289-341 (96 - 113.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Pretty simple Normalium set that gets by a lot of surefire Scizor 'counters'. I don't think this is even close to Scizor's best set but to me it just goes to show Scizor can get by anything it wants. I've been wanting this tested since last summer so in my opinion a Scizor suspect would be great. Even if its not banned at least we would have 10 days without it.

 

[DiscoDucky]

You run the item metronome, glad to see I can still make one post about one set and see UU's most prominent thread be derailed by 15 posts

Does Metronome address the situation where you switch out from Quag to Alomomola? You're the one who suggested a Scizor suspect on grounds of it breaking a common stall core (amongst other reasons). At least make an effort to produce something to back your claims, like what xMarth did.

Yung Dramps, showing how how Fury Cutter works is important if someone uses that as a reason that Scizor is broken.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Does Metronome address the situation where you switch out from Quag to Alomomola? You're the one who suggested a Scizor suspect on grounds of it breaking a common stall core (amongst other reasons). At least make an effort to produce something to back your claims, like what xMarth did.

Yung Dramps, showing how how Fury Cutter works is important if someone uses that as a reason that Scizor is broken.

Ok, fair, but it is far, FAR, FAR from the only argument the pro-ban side has presented, and it isn't even poke's sole argument. Harping on something like that is not fair when there is more to discuss.

 

[Freeroamer]

This is kind of weird to me because if you’re only asking whether Scizor should (have) receive(d) a suspect test, I would respond unequivocally yes. It should have received one by this stage of the metagame for how long it has been at the forefront of UU building, combining all of being an extremely strong sweeper, pivot with many more positive qualities besides. However I think the timing of this unfortunately is way off given that we’ve only just come out of a suspect in which one of the primary ban arguments was restricting teambuilding, as well as UU open which will have started in a week or maybe a little more, and we’re due a tier shift in 2-3 weeks that could completely redefine the tier. As much as I dislike saying it due to how I’ve advocated for a Scizor suspect I genuinely think the “this isn’t the time” argument applies here. I don’t buy into any argument that Scizor isn’t worth suspecting but I’m not going to go into great detail here because I already did that in another np thread.

For those interested: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...rperior-remain-uu.3632583/page-2#post-7768627

 

[Avira]

Does Metronome address the situation where you switch out from Quag to Alomomola? You're the one who suggested a Scizor suspect on grounds of it breaking a common stall core (amongst other reasons). At least make an effort to produce something to back your claims, like what xMarth did.

If Alomomola switches into Scizor with Metronome (nevermind switching to Alo from Quagsire) using Fury Cutter, it is possible that Alomomola will KOed eventually unless it burns Scizor because Scizor can use Swords Dance when Alomomola uses Protect. If all Alomomola does is use Wish and Protect, Scizor gets to +6 and OHKOes with Superpower. Alomomola has to fish for Scalds, or it loses.

Here are two examples of what can happen if there is no Scald burn.

1)

Turn 1. Alomomola switches in: 252+ Atk Scizor Fury Cutter (60BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 90-106 . Alomomola Leftovers recovery
Turn 2. Turn 2. Alomomola uses Protect. Scizor uses Swords Dance. Leftovers
Turn 3. Alomomola uses Wish: +2 252+ Atk Scizor Fury Cutter (60BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 178-211. Leftovers
Turn 4. Alomomola uses Protect. Scizor uses Swords Dance. Leftovers + Wish recovery
Turn 5. Alomomola uses Wish: +4 252+ Atk Scizor Fury Cutter (60BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 268-316. 2HKOs cleanly
Turn 6. Alomomola uses Protect: Scizor uses Swords Dance.
Turn 7. +6 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Superpower (120BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 476-561 (98.9 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

2)


Turn 1. Alomomola switches in: 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Fury Cutter (60BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 90-106 . Leftovers
Turn 2. Alomomola uses Protect. Scizor uses Swords Dance. Leftovers
Turn 3. Alomomola uses Scald, which is a potential 5HKO: +2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Fury Cutter (60BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 178-211. Leftovers
Turn 4. Alomomola uses Protect. Scizor uses Swords Dance. Leftovers
Turn 5. +4 252+ Atk Scizor Superpower vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 357-421 (74.2 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. This KOes because Alomomola took previous damage and didn't burn

In this scenario, Alomomola has no time to use Wish because of the user using Scald on Turn 3.


So basically, the Alomomola user has to hope for a Scald burn or risk Scizor setting up on it and sweeping because Protect is a very exploitable move. The Alomomola user's best play might actually be to use Scald 3 times in a row in hopes of a burn. These examples don't even include any stacking from Fury Cutter. It just shows that Alomomola is a shaky check to SD Scizor.

 

[Yung Dramps]

This is kind of weird to me because if you’re only asking whether Scizor should (have) receive(d) a suspect test, I would respond unequivocally yes. It should have received one by this stage of the metagame for how long it has been at the forefront of UU building, combining all of being an extremely strong sweeper, pivot with many more positive qualities besides. However I think the timing of this unfortunately is way off given that we’ve only just come out of a suspect in which one of the primary ban arguments was restricting teambuilding, as well as UU open which will have started in a week or maybe a little more, and we’re due a tier shift in 2-3 weeks that could completely redefine the tier. As much as I dislike saying it due to how I’ve advocated for a Scizor suspect I genuinely think the “this isn’t the time” argument applies here. I don’t buy into any argument that Scizor isn’t worth suspecting but I’m not going to go into great detail here because I already did that in another np thread.

For those interested: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...rperior-remain-uu.3632583/page-2#post-7768627

Yeah, I definitely understand your viewpoint. But the problem here is that we've honestly put this off for too long. As many including myself have stated, Scizor should've been suspected a year ago, but tons of things have been constantly getting in the way like tournaments and meta shifts. People are getting tired of waiting, and if we wait too long and let all these events transpire, we could have to delay the Scizor suspect for another few months. And then by the time that's over, something else gets in the way and we gotta delay it even more, and then something else gets in the way after the further delay and the vicious circle just keeps going and going... We can't keep on like this, not with a Pokemon that has polarized the playerbase and constrained teambuilding so much for such a long time.

I've given your post some thought, and I have come up with a plan that could finally get this out of the way and allow the decisive suspect test we have yearned for to finally be done. BUT, and this is a rather huge but, the idea shall be controversial, and I am sure I'm gonna anger someone.

-First off, let the UU Open play out for a couple of weeks. See how the post-Breloom meta shapes out, and really take a damn good look at Scizor's influence in the tournament. This should continue right until the July tier shifts.

-Once the tier shifts arrive and we know what's rising and dropping, start off by quickbanning ALL of the drops that haven't already been in the tier previously, REGARDLESS of their projected viability or influence, Kokoloko style. This'll INSURE that the metagame will be shaken up as little as possible, in turn allowing it to stabilize as quickly as possible, therefore making sure potentially broken drops (lookin' at you mega diancie) will not distract us further from Scizor. Allowing stuff like Amoonguss and Mamoswine is fine, since we have already had them in the meta in the past for some time, so we already have a good idea how they stack up, what they're capable of, so on and so forth.

-Depending on how much the tier is shaken based on the returning mons and any rises, allow yet another week or two, maybe three at max for meta developments based on these changes. This should allow the meta to adapt and the UU Open to get as close to its end as possible. Once this has happened, start the Scizor suspect!

-Finally, once we have determined once and for all whether Scizor is broken or not, wait yet another couple of weeks for the metagame to stabilize and adapt if Scizor is banned, if it isn't banned, wait 1 week. If Scizor is allowed or if Scizor is banned and no new issues present themselves, then at this point, we can go back and slowly start suspecting the quickbans put in place in step 2, preferably longer and/or one at a time to prevent another Breloom situation.

Again, I know this'll draw some ire, but really, we cannot put off the Scizor suspect anymore, and while doing a suspect during a tournament might seem bad, all these measures are to minimize the chaos and allow Open players to adapt their teams as easily as they can.

 

[dingbat]

welp, may the struggle begin

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[Jaajgko]

I totally agree with Freeroamer, we've had Scizor in the tier for way too long but suspect testing it right now wouldn't be a good idea because it's the mon that has the biggest influence on the tier, and the metagame would turn into a completely new one. I think Scizor needs to go but we will probably keep this meta until october 2019 and even later, so in my opinion we should wait for the right moment to come, we've had Scizor for more than one year, we can wait a couple month more before the revolution, and even see if it becomes more broken since a lot of you brought up interesting sets.

 

[Yung Dramps]

I totally agree with Freeroamer, we've had Scizor in the tier for way too long but suspect testing it right now wouldn't be a good idea because it's the mon that has the biggest influence on the tier, and the metagame would turn into a completely new one. I think Scizor needs to go but we will probably keep this meta until october 2019 and even later, so in my opinion we should wait for the right moment to come, we've had Scizor for more than one year, we can wait a couple month more before the revolution, and even see if it becomes more broken since a lot of you brought up interesting sets.

No. As I have already explained in pain-staking detail, we have already had too many delays, and if we keep having to delay this hugely important suspect everytime a major tournament or tier shift comes, it'll never come, simple as that. Suspecting Scizor now is a risk, yes, but it is a risk that needs to be taken, UU has already stagnated under this Pokemon's iron boot (heh) for far too long. Now is not the time for fear or nervousness. Now is the time for action.

Take a look at these, these are the potential rises and drops for the tiers based on last month's stats credit goes to MaahirMomtaz12

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So what's likely to happen in July?

-Two Pokemon will come back, which really doesn't count as a change since they were both already major presences in the tier before and nothing has changed in UU in the meantime to really affect their viability. By the way, neither of these Pokemon have ever been recognized as good Scizor checks, especially not Mamoswine.

-One new Pokemon will enter the tier, being Mega Diancie. It's yet ANOTHER thing Scizor takes advantage of, and it'll probably be quickbanned anyway (if it is allowed or suspected and allowed with the major justification being Scizor I will actually break something)

-Gliscor will likely leave. Gliscor was one of the few things that could sorta check Scizor, and it's loss, among many other things, will cause teams to lose a Scizor check.

So from what we can gather, Scizor could actually get marginally BETTER this shift, but truth be told, the shift won't even change that much aside from Gliscor being gone, and even then, I don't think we need to wait until freaking October or later for a suspect.

 

[explodingdaisies]

Can we all calm our collective tits? We just suspected something. Let's all wait and see how the meta shapes up first before anything. Also suspecting scizor with UU open 2 days away would be a VERY bad idea. Let's wait and see and put the pitchforks away please.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Can we all calm our collective tits? We just suspected something. Let's all wait and see how the meta shapes up first before anything. Also suspecting scizor with UU open 2 days away would be a VERY bad idea. Let's wait and see and put the pitchforks away please.

Can we not derail discussion please? This isn't your typical topic someone brought up out of nowhere to trigger people for the shits and giggles, this is an issue which has been discussed and has been shrouded in controversy for a solid year. pokeisfun and I have already explained that not suspecting because of UU Open is a flimsy excuse at best. If not just UU, but ANY tier leadership held off on suspects and tiering decisions just for tournaments, the collective suspect count for the entirety of the main Smogon tiers from the beginning of SM would be like, 2 or 3 and all the tiers would be unplayable messes because nothing was able to be suspected solely because people were afraid of disturbing the tournament scene. Besides, anyone who's competent enough to play in the Open surely can build some new teams in the advent of a Scizor ban.

Now, we obviously don't have to do one suspect after the other in a non-stop marathon (we haven't reached quite the extreme level of centralization that PU had before they banned Archeops and Magmortar), but in the meantime while we wait for the metagame to settle, what's the big deal in just discussing? Discussions and argumentations on the topic are fun, and they'll allow the entire playerbase at large to be more prepared when the suspect finally DOES come.

 

[Rabia]

And how about people like you stop trying to derail or avoid the discussion? This isn't your typical topic someone brought up out of nowhere to trigger people for the shits and giggles, this is an issue which has been discussed and has been shrouded in controversy for a solid year. pokeisfun and I have already explained that not suspecting because of UU Open is a flimsy excuse at best. If not just UU, but ANY tier leadership held off on suspects and tiering decisions just for tournaments, the collective suspect count for the entirety of the main Smogon tiers from the beginning of SM would be like, 2 or 3 and all the tiers would be unplayable messes because nothing was able to be suspected solely because people were afraid of disturbing the tournament scene. Besides, anyone who's competent enough to play in the Open surely can build some new teams in the advent of a Scizor ban.

Now, we obviously don't have to do one suspect after the other in a non-stop marathon (we haven't reached quite the extreme level of centralization that PU had before they banned Archeops and Magmortar), but in the meantime while we wait for the metagame to settle, what's the big deal in just discussing? Discussions and argumentations on the topic are fun, and they'll allow the entire playerbase at large to be more prepared when the suspect finally DOES come.

your posts really lose meaning when they devolve to insults at people for sharing a differing opinion

so this isn't a one liner: Scizor doesn't need a test. people need to stop correlating top of the tier for the entire gen with being an overbearing force. the only person that has really offered much insight outside of that was pif and I wish more of y'all would offer more than just "it's been top tier forever suspect please"