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There's also the chance to secondary effect Cyclohm, use water stab against Gastrodon, Plasmanta & Mollux, paralyze Cawmadore, Voodoom, Marowak-A & Kitsunoh.
why would you stay in against Cyclohm, Plasmanta, or Cawmadore, also Marowak-A and Voodoom is barely relevant in CAP meta atm, Gastrodon wouldn't stay in or even Mollux. The reasoning behind mold breaker on 25w isn't thorough enough also why would you even list Kitsunoh, most of them run Iron Fist not Limber.
I was talking in Discord some today and there was a LOT of debate over firemon's ability in particular. There's a lot of options that just seem really, really strong- Merciless, Steelworker- and some that I really dislike- Super Luck, Mold Breaker now that I thought about it. Drap actually had a suggestion I really found interesting with Multiscale: it's not a typical offensive ability like pretty much everything suggested otherwise, but it seems to hit a sweetspot in terms of power level where we're not adding directly to the strength of firemon's typing and instead opening up different roles for it to play.
In terms of concept ties with Multiscale, we've got the obvious sort of recovery moves, which I would be lying if I said didn't scare me a smidge: giving this the ability to recover could be very strong depending on the rest of the process. There are a lot of ways to balance giving this recovery, though, and it shouldn't pose too much of a problem if this route is chosen. There's also synergy with boosting moves a la Dragonite. Giving firemon a strong ability in Multiscale (although it isn't directly offensively strong) alongside recovery/boosting appears at first to be very strong; however, there is a lot of process left to go, and it can be kept in line by what is left to do. It isn't unbalancable, which is what I fear with a lot of other abilities. Multiscale gives us a really unique approach that doesn't directly blow holes through our C&C in the way something that is purely "lets boost move power."
There's been a bit of talk on Discord about Sniper vs Super Luck vs Merciless, so I thought I'd make a second post comparing them but this time with a bit of math to back me up.
The first thing I would like to address is average damage assuming no other crit boosting moves/items are used. While technically Super Luck does a bit more damage on average, the power increase and the difference between the two are so small that you may as well right off the abilities in a match.
Assuming 100BP move
Super Luck:
Crit Chance - 1/8
Multiplier - 1.5
Average BP per round - 106.25
Sniper:
Crit Chance - 1/24
Multiplier - 2.25
Average BP per round - 105.2083
At first glance, Super Luck seems like it would be a better ability due to it being able to run more varied sets. The two major sets that would be run with Super Luck are the Scope Lens set and the Setup Set. Both of these sets would have advantages and disadvantages. The Scope Lens set would be susceptible to knock off, which would make it very unreliable, uncompetitive, and unfun(due to the effect of making crits land only 50% of the time), but it has the ability to get crits consistently without setup. If this was its only valid set, then I would be very much against it because the downsides of the best set would be uncompetitive, but when the uncertainty and ability to run multiple sets is taken into account, I think it is less of an issue.
The other set for Super Luck would be the Setup set. This set allows for more powerful moves and boosting items to be used at the cost of requiring a turn of setup.
25f @ Life Orb(or Z move for crit boost)
Ability: Super Luck
- +2 Crit Move
- Stronger Attack
So let's compare those to the possible sets for Sniper. The two Sniper sets are pretty similar to each other. The first is the +1 Crit Move set. This has the benefit of not being item reliant and not using recoil moves at the cost of less power and slightly less accurate attacks.
And for Sniper I can think of two as well:
25f @ Life Orb(or Z move for crit boost)
Ability: Sniper
- +2 Crit Move
- +1 Crit Attack
The other set is the Scope Lens set. This has the same downsides as the Super Luck Scope Lens set, but boasts more power than the other Sniper set.
So already a problem may have jumped out of you. With Sniper, the more powerful set is also the riskier set. This is inherently balanced, as high risk should equal high reward. But when we look at Super Luck, we see the opposite. The set that promises the most power is also the more reliable and consistent set. This is backwards from how it should be. Now, I'm not saying that the Super Luck Scope set is entirely outclassed by the Setup set. Scope Lens would have its niche, but the low risk, high reward Setup set would be the primary set.
This problem may not seem that big on its own, but it is a big issue when you compare the damage output of Super Luck's two sets. The damage output of the Setup set is over TWICE as much as the damage output from the Scope Lens set. Now, you may be thinking, "But that's true of most setup sweepers, swords dance for example doubles the user's attack". The problem with this though is that critical hits steamroll over the standard setup counters. Boosting defenses does nothing, Haze does nothing, and Unaware does nothing to stop a crit booster. And this isn't even taking into consideration the possibility of 100% crit Z moves, which could only be done with Super Luck and would be even more broken.
The first move on the LO set does 2.05* the first move of the Scope Lens set(234/114) and the second move on the LO set does 1.71* the second move on the Scope Lens set(195/114)
So the obvious solution to this is to balance 25f around one set or the other. This eliminates one of the main draws of Super Luck over Sniper, which is the ability to run multiple sets. And when we consider just choosing one set or the other, we realize that choosing either Super Luck set would end up with a worse(worse meaning either bad or broken) version of either Merciless or Sniper.
Let's start off with the Scope Lens set and compare it to Merciless. The first thing to note is that we would have to keep any +2 crit boosting moves out of the moveset for this to work, including potential Z Moves. Not a big deal, but it's something to note. Now, if the only crit set was the Scope Lens set, 25f would be way more vulnerable to knock off and, as described above, this would be a bad thing not just for the user, but for the opponent. Knock off would still be the ideal play for your opponent, but it also makes the game less competitive and more chance based. This is a problem that Merciless doesn't have because does not rely on an item for its crits. Now, Merciless does require additional team support, but I think that the reliability makes it a much better option for a competitive environment. Merciless additionally allows for the possibility of a special set, which would not be possible when relying on +1 crit attacks.
Next up is the Setup Set vs Sniper. For this to work, no moves would need to be omitted from the movepool, simply balancing the stats around the Setup Set would be all that is necessary. One of the benefits of this is the ability to run the Scope Lens set as well, but like I said above, this would be a niche pick due to the drastically lower damage output. There are a few reasons why this would just end up as a less effective version of the Sniper sets. The first is that Sniper has more setup set options. Both of them could run a crit boosting Z Move or Life orb, but Sniper could also run a Scope Lens set that differs from Super Luck Scope Lens. The Sniper Scope Lens set does up to about 1.5* the damage of the Z move set but is a higher risk set. Another benefit of the Sniper set is that because the boost is as high as it is(2.25*), 25f would likely get a lower Atk stat with Sniper than with Super Luck, which would free up more stat points which are at a premium for this CAP. These stat points could go towards special attack, which would allow 25f to run a physical, special, or mixed set.
Now I've been open on being really hard about what we consider 'ability move synergy' but really, what is Emergency Exit supposed to have synergy with?
I've heard people mention screens or hazards or status debuffs but I don't see it. The only thing I could see claim some synergy would be if you could reliably trigger it yourself, but that's not where we're going. All of the 'synergy' I've seen seems to be about abusing a dubious free switch that you don't have control over.
Saying it has synergy with say turn-delayed heals or other debuffs that would turn into memento-analogues with a free switch is acting like your opponent will conveniently hit you right there and you won't die. Opponent switched? Well, no free switch there is it. Oh, your Pokemon died. That was gonna be a free entrance anyways, so I guess your strategy worked out. I could see an argument for screens (or I guess the debuffs) by reducing attack damages so you don't die if I was less of a purist, but in my book it's the same problem with them. Also what if because of them you don't drop under 50 and thus no EE and then you're forced to switch or die. That's anti-synergy. You just don't control the switch, so any synergy is dubious.
The only legit synergy I can sorta see would be if we were Ghost-type for Curse, and I'm not even sure if that works. Oh and recoil I guess. Plus we're not even Ghost-type.
EDIT: Self-hurt different from Sub does not activate Emergency Exit, so there's no way to reliably trigger it. Frostbiyt tested.
There's been a bit of talk on Discord about Sniper vs Super Luck vs Merciless, so I thought I'd make a second post comparing them but this time with a bit of math to back me up. First, I will be comparing Sniper and Super Luck, because Merciless would play a lot differently than these two, but I'll address it towards the end.
The first thing I would like to address is average damage assuming no other crit boosting moves/items are used. While technically Super Luck does a bit more damage on average, the power increase and the difference between the two are so small that you may as well right off the abilities in a match.
Assuming 100BP move
Super Luck:
Crit Chance - 1/8
Multiplier - 1.5
Average BP per round - 106.25
Sniper:
Crit Chance - 1/24
Multiplier - 2.25
Average BP per round - 105.2083
At first glance, Super Luck seems like it would be a better ability due to it being able to run more varied sets. The two major sets that would be run with Super Luck are the Scope Lens set and the Setup Set. Both of these sets would have advantages and disadvantages. The Scope Lens set would be susceptible to knock off, which would make it very unreliable, uncompetitive, and unfun(due to the effect of making crits land only 50% of the time), but it has the ability to get crits consistently without setup. If this was its only valid set, then I would be very much against it because the downsides of the best set would be uncompetitive, but when the uncertainty and ability to run multiple sets is taken into account, I think it is less of an issue.
The other set for Super Luck would be the Setup set. This set allows for more powerful moves and boosting items to be used at the cost of requiring a turn of setup.
25f @ Life Orb(or Z move for crit boost)
Ability: Super Luck
- +2 Crit Move
- Stronger Attack
So let's compare those to the possible sets for Sniper. The two Sniper sets are pretty similar to each other. The first is the +1 Crit Move set. This has the benefit of not being item reliant and not using recoil moves at the cost of less power and slightly less accurate attacks.
And for Sniper I can think of two as well:
25f @ Life Orb(or Z move for crit boost)
Ability: Sniper
- +2 Crit Move
- +1 Crit Attack
The other set is the Scope Lens set. This has the same downsides as the Super Luck Scope Lens set, but boasts more power than the other Sniper set.
So already a problem may have jumped out of you. With Sniper, the more powerful set is also the riskier set. This is inherently balanced, as high risk should equal high reward. But when we look at Super Luck, we see the opposite. The set that promises the most power is also the more reliable and consistent set. This is backwards from how it should be. Now, I'm not saying that the Super Luck Scope set is entirely outclassed by the Setup set. Scope Lens would have its niche, but the low risk, high reward Setup set would be the primary set.
This problem may not seem that big on its own, but it is a big issue when you compare the damage output of Super Luck's two sets. The damage output of the Setup set is over TWICE as much as the damage output from the Scope Lens set. Now, you may be thinking, "But that's true of most setup sweepers, swords dance for example doubles the user's attack". The problem with this though is that critical hits steamroll over the standard setup counters. Boosting defenses does nothing, Haze does nothing, and Unaware does nothing to stop a crit booster. And this isn't even taking into consideration the possibility of 100% crit Z moves, which could only be done with Super Luck and would be even more broken.
The first move on the LO set does 2.05* the first move of the Scope Lens set(234/114) and the second move on the LO set does 1.71* the second move on the Scope Lens set(195/114)
So the obvious solution to this is to balance 25f around one set or the other. This eliminates one of the main draws of Super Luck over Sniper, which is the ability to run multiple sets. And when we consider just choosing one set or the other, we realize that choosing either Super Luck set would end up with a worse(worse meaning either bad or broken) version of either Merciless or Sniper.
Let's start off with the Scope Lens set and compare it to Merciless. The first thing to note is that we would have to keep any +2 crit boosting moves out of the moveset for this to work, including potential Z Moves. Not a big deal, but it's something to note. Now, if the only crit set was the Scope Lens set, 25f would be way more vulnerable to knock off and, as described above, this would be a bad thing not just for the user, but for the opponent. Knock off would still be the ideal play for your opponent, but it also makes the game less competitive and more chance based. This is a problem that Merciless doesn't have because does not rely on an item for its crits. Now, Merciless does require additional team support, but I think that the reliability makes it a much better option for a competitive environment. Merciless additionally allows for the possibility of a special set, which would not be possible when relying on +1 crit attacks.
Next up is the Setup Set vs Sniper. For this to work, no moves would need to be omitted from the movepool, simply balancing the stats around the Setup Set would be all that is necessary. One of the benefits of this is the ability to run the Scope Lens set as well, but like I said above, this would be a niche pick due to the drastically lower damage output. There are a few reasons why this would just end up as a less effective version of the Sniper sets. The first is that Sniper has more setup set options. Both of them could run a crit boosting Z Move or Life orb, but Sniper could also run a Scope Lens set that differs from Super Luck Scope Lens. The Sniper Scope Lens set does up to about 1.5* the damage of the Z move set but is a higher risk set. Another benefit of the Sniper set is that because the boost is as high as it is(2.25*), 25f would likely get a lower Atk stat with Sniper than with Super Luck, which would free up more stat points which are at a premium for this CAP. These stat points could go towards special attack, which would allow 25f to run a physical, special, or mixed set.
I'll start from the back with your premise and work my way back up.
First, you're trying to argue both sides of the power equation. Let's begin with "broken," and take a step back. We're working with starters as a framework here, and have two examples of starters that are or have been broken: Blaziken and Gen 6 Greninja. Blaziken only needs to find a single good switch in and can get up to +2 Atk/+1 Spe and then strike with 120 Atk STABs with 120 and 130 Base Power respectively. Any hesitancy and Blaziken gets up to +2 Spe and outside of Scarf range for nearly all Scarfers.
Gen 6 Greninja acts just as its Gen 7 counterpart does, but Power Creep has seen to its relative acceptability. This starter has blazing speed and changes its type and therefore weakness profile on the fly, while always doing STAB damage with its attack. One of its attacks is a pivot move.
Those two examples are the level of power it takes to "break" a starter. Super Luck does not approach either of these in Scope, even with a Scope Lens attached.
Next, to say Super Luck is more restricted is patently false, as by your own post you point out it allows for more varied and diverse sets. Pick your argument: Super Luck is too powerful because it's too diverse or Super Luck is too weak because it's too restricted. Don't make both claims and then provide no case for one and a counter-indicated case for the other.
Next lets go to the flaws with Merciless and Sniper.
Merciless: Merciless requires you to play a highly offensive Pokemon as a passive Pokemon to get its benefits. You are pressured to click Toxic or Toxic Spikes on your first turn to activate Merciless, which is a turn you should be using to pressure with damage output. Alternatively you need support outside of 25f to accomplish this. This is CAP so Toxic Spikes are absorbed by several viable CAPs (Mollux, Crucibelle, Fidgit, Plasmanta), seen as a boon by one (Colossoil), and ignored by others (Kitsunoh, Tomohawk, Naviathan, Cawmodore, Pajantom). We tend to have good matchups with STAB against most of these Pokemon, but nonetheless giving several of them a free switchin when trying to set up your ability is not great play.
Merciless also has the drawback that every time you use fire STAB for all but a few specific moves, you risk inflicting a Burn that invalidates using Merciless at all.
Merciless is arguably better on either 25w or 25g. It has a pretty negative interaction with 25f's STAB and is inaccessible without incredible opportunity cost in either teambuilding, active battle, or both.
Sniper: Sniper is less flawed. In fact, Sniper can run perfectly viable sets, but its coverage if actualized will be significantly different from a Super Luck CAP because Sniper is overly reliant on high-critical moves and setup to function. Its Scope Lens set is more vulnerable to Knock Off than Super Luck CAP because it also needs a setup turn to get to 100% crit even on its high crit moves. If your present opponent does not have Knock Off and faces Super Luck CAP, its switch will take a critical hit to come it. Sniper CAP might get a crit with a high crit move, but its other moves are not likely to crit.
Finally, there is one other set that Super Luck can run that Sniper fares poorly with, and that's Choice (Scarf primarily, but Band to an extent since most high crit moves are physical). With Super Luck, +crit moves have a 50% chance to crit and other moves 12.5%. This makes those +crit moves significantly more powerful on a Choice Scarf set because effectively speaking, the moves have 25% more average power, and when they crit can bypass Intimidate and Screens. Sniper Scarf +crit moves have a 12.5% chance to crit and 4.167% otherwise. They are statistical noise or pure luck. 50% crit also means you could gamble on a Scope Lens Super Luck set with a non-high crit move if it had a better power/accuracy ratio. A coin flip is a legitimate gamble over time, 12.5% is just a sucker's bet.
In summation, Super Luck has 3 viable sets: The Scope Lens Attacker, Setup/Z-Setup, and Choice. Sniper has two viable sets: Scope Lens Setup (crits all moves) and Life Orb/Z-Setup (crits high crit moves). Without Setup, Sniper is astonishingly inconsistent and comparable to having no ability. In Gen 7 CAP, inconsistency is death. The price for Sniper is the requirement to set up using a method that bypasses Haze (but not Phaze) and Screens. It is not without its attraction, but it is something we ought to be prepared for going into it that Sniper signs us up for a crit-based setup sweeper
I'll start from the back with your premise and work my way back up.
First, you're trying to argue both sides of the power equation. Let' begin with "broken," and take a step back. We're working with starters as a framework here, and have two examples of starters that are or have been broken: Blaziken and Gen 6 Greninja. Blaziken only needs to find a single good switch in and can get up to +2 Atk/+1 Spe and then strike with 120 Atk STABs with 120 and 130 Base Power respectively. Any hesitancy and Blaziken gets up to +2 Spe and outside of Scarf range for nearly all Scarfers.
Gen 6 Greninja acts just as its Gen 7 counterpart does, but Power Creep has seen to its relative acceptability. This starter has blazing speed and changes its type and therefore weakness profile on the fly, while always doing STAB damage with its attack. One of its attacks is a pivot move.
Those two examples are the level of power it takes to "break" a starter. Super Luck does not approach either of these in Scope, even with a Scope Lens attached.
Next, to say Super Luck is more restricted is patently false, as by your own post you point out it allows for more varied and diverse sets. Pick your argument: Super Luck is too powerful because it's too diverse or Super Luck is too weak because it's too restricted. Don't make both claims and then provide no case for one and a counter-indicated case for the other.
Next lets go to the flaws with Merciless and Sniper.
Merciless: Merciless requires you to play a highly offensive Pokemon as a passive Pokemon to get its benefits. You are pressured to click Toxic or Toxic Spikes on your first turn to activate Merciless, which is a turn you should be using to pressure with damage output. Alternatively you need support outside of 25f to accomplish this. This is CAP so Toxic Spikes are absorbed by several viable CAPs (Mollux, Crucibelle, Fidgit, Plasmanta), seen as a boon by one (Colossoil), and ignored by others (Kitsunoh, Tomohawk, Naviathan, Cawmodore, Pajantom). We tend to have good matchups with STAB against most of these Pokemon, but nonetheless giving several of them a free switchin when trying to set up your ability is not great play.
Merciless also has the drawback that every time you use fire STAB for all but a few specific moves, you risk inflicting a Burn that invalidates using Merciless at all.
Merciless is arguably better on either 25w or 25g. It has a pretty negative interaction with 25f's STAB and is inaccessible without incredible opportunity cost in either teambuilding, active battle, or both.
Sniper: Sniper is less flawed. In fact, Sniper can run perfectly viable sets, but its coverage if actualized will be significantly different from a Super Luck CAP because Sniper is overly reliant on high-critical moves and setup to function. Its Scope Lens set is more vulnerable to Knock Off than Super Luck CAP because it also needs a setup turn to get to 100% crit even on its high crit moves. If your present opponent does not have Knock Off and faces Super Luck CAP, its switch will take a critical hit to come it. Sniper CAP might get a crit with a high crit move, but its other moves are not likely to crit.
Finally, there is one other set that Super Luck can run that Sniper fares poorly with, and that's Choice (Scarf primarily, but Band to an extent since most high crit moves are physical). With Super Luck, +crit moves have a 50% chance to crit and other moves 12.5%. This makes those +crit moves significantly more powerful on a Choice Scarf set because effectively speaking, the moves have 25% more average power, and when they crit can bypass Intimidate and Screens. Sniper Scarf +crit moves have a 12.5% chance to crit and 4.167% otherwise. They are statistical noise or pure luck. 50% crit also means you could gamble on a Scope Lens set with a non-high crit move if it had a better power/accuracy ratio. A coin flip is a legitimate gamble over time, 12.5% is just a sucker's bet.
In summation, Super Luck has 3 viable sets: The Scope Lens Attacker, Setup/Z-Setup, and Choice. Sniper has two viable sets: Scope Lens Setup (crits all moves) and Life Orb/Z-Setup (crits high crit moves). Without Setup, Sniper is astonishingly inconsistent and comparable to having no ability. In Gen 7 CAP, inconsistency is death. The price for Sniper is the requirement to set up using a method that bypasses Haze (but not Phaze) and Screens. It is not without its attraction, but it is something we ought to be prepared for going into it that Sniper signs us up for a crit-based setup sweeper
Next, to say Super Luck is more restricted is patently false, as by your own post you point out it allows for more varied and diverse sets. Pick your argument: Super Luck is too powerful because it's too diverse or Super Luck is too weak because it's too restricted. Don't make both claims and then provide no case for one and a counter-indicated case for the other.
I thought that this was implied pretty heavily in my post, but I'll say it explicitly here, now: If we balance 25f around the Scope Lens set, 25f will nuke most of our checks and counters with LO and Setup, and if we balance around the Setup set, the scope lens will get little use due to the low damage output. I never said it is too powerful because it is too diverse. I said that it appears diverse until you actually look at the damage output of the two primary sets. We would have to pick one or the other to focus on and they would just end up being worse versions of Sniper or Merciless. That is what makes it more restrictive.
Finally, there is one other set that Super Luck can run that Sniper fares poorly with, and that's Choice (Scarf primarily, but Band to an extent since most high crit moves are physical). With Super Luck, +crit moves have a 50% chance to crit and other moves 12.5%. This makes those +crit moves significantly more powerful on a Choice Scarf set because effectively speaking, the moves have 25% more average power, and when they crit can bypass Intimidate and Screens. Sniper Scarf +crit moves have a 12.5% chance to crit and 4.167% otherwise. They are statistical noise or pure luck. 50% crit also means you could gamble on a Scope Lens set with a non-high crit move if it had a better power/accuracy ratio. A coin flip is a legitimate gamble over time, 12.5% is just a sucker's bet.
Scarf and a 50% chance to crit have little chance of being ran over scarf with a higher power unless it picks up some very important KOs. I'll quote DrapionSwing here from Discord:
Frostbiyt:
Would anyone here run Scarf Super Luck 25f [Redacted crit move](50% chance to crit) over Scarf [Redacted more powerful move]?
DrapionSwing:
Maybe
If there is a relevant calc
If crit [Redacted crit move]
can like 2hko gren after rocks
I don't see why I wouldn't run it
If I'm just using it for fishing
But if I LOSE a matchup I NEED to win then I won't use it at all Because I need to win that matchup all the time, that's what scarfers normally need to do
Next lets go to the flaws with Merciless and Sniper.
Merciless: Merciless requires you to play a highly offensive Pokemon as a passive Pokemon to get its benefits. You are pressured to click Toxic or Toxic Spikes on your first turn to activate Merciless, which is a turn you should be using to pressure with damage output. Alternatively you need support outside of 25f to accomplish this. This is CAP so Toxic Spikes are absorbed by several viable CAPs (Mollux, Crucibelle, Fidgit, Plasmanta), seen as a boon by one (Colossoil), and ignored by others (Kitsunoh, Tomohawk, Naviathan, Cawmodore, Pajantom). We tend to have good matchups with STAB against most of these Pokemon, but nonetheless giving several of them a free switchin when trying to set up your ability is not great play.
Merciless also has the drawback that every time you use fire STAB for all but a few specific moves, you risk inflicting a Burn that invalidates using Merciless at all.
What you are describing here is balancing. Fire/Ground is a very oppressive typing and critical hits are a very strong buff on top of that, requiring team support in order to reach max potential is a good thing. It would help keep 25f from being too powerful and splashable.
Sniper: Sniper is less flawed. In fact, Sniper can run perfectly viable sets, but its coverage if actualized will be significantly different from a Super Luck CAP because Sniper is overly reliant on high-critical moves and setup to function. Its Scope Lens set is more vulnerable to Knock Off than Super Luck CAP because it also needs a setup turn to get to 100% crit even on its high crit moves. If your present opponent does not have Knock Off and faces Super Luck CAP, its switch will take a critical hit to come it. Sniper CAP might get a crit with a high crit move, but its other moves are not likely to crit.
Just like with Merciless, restraining 25f's power is a good thing here, in reference to needing setup to function. Like I said in my last post, high risk should equal high reward. You can get more power with a scope lens, but you risk being knocked off. And like I said when talking about the Super Luck Scope set, being so knock off susceptible is only a big problem if it is the only viable set.
Also, if it determined that Sniper would be too vulnerable relying on setup, there is always the option of moves that have 100% chance to crit without setup required.
Hi everyone, it’s now time to enter the beast of the project, the abilities stage. To recap, each of our staters will have access to their respective pinch ability (Overgrow, Blaze, Torrent), as well as ONE COMPETITIVE hidden ability. While almost all previous projects have had at least two “good” abilities, the ability we place onto each starter will be the ability of choice. You may want to consider the pinch ability to be the “flavor ability” for this CAP - the final projects may be able to use them, but they are certainly not the focus of this project.
Before I get into initial questions, I want to set a couple of guidelines for this discussion. I do not want to see posts naming moves in conjunction with abilities at all. I’ll say it again, I do not want to see posts naming moves in conjunction with abilities, in this thread, at all.You may refer to each starter's STAB move TYPE, opponent moves, etc. Do not use phrases akin to "Sludge Wave + Sheer Force." This is polljumping - we’re here to discuss abilities, even if moves are an integral part of the project. Your post might be deleted and even infracted if you polljump. Stay at the task at hand, which is abilities. Additionally, be sure to check the list of additional banned abilities list found below. These are banned to this project only due to their lack of good ability-movepool interactions. The list was generated during concept assessment.
Dry Skin
Flash Fire
Sap Sipper
Lightning Rod
Motor Drive
Storm Drain
Volt Absorb
Water Absorb
Guts
Flare Boost
Toxic Boost
Bulletproof
Soundproof
Aftermath
Clear Body
Cute Charm
Damp
Dancer
Defeatist
Effect Spore
Filter
Fluffy
Forewarn
Heatproof
Hyper Cutter
Immunity
Innards Out
Inner Focus
Insomnia
Iron Barbs
Limber
Liquid Ooze
Magma Armor
Moxie
Mummy
Natural Cure
Overcoat
Poison Point
Rattled
Rough Skin
Sand Rush
Sand Veil
Shield Dust
Solid Rock
Static
Steadfast
Sticky Hold
Sweet Veil
Thick Fat
Unnerve
Vital Spirit
Weak Armor
That aside, we’re here to have fun and discuss abilities. I’d like to give a couple of initial thoughts. First, the Fire-type starter’s offensive nature should be very easy to achieve ability-movepool synergy, but that doesn’t automatically exclude weaker connections. Second, the Water-type starter’s defensive role will make it harder to achieve direct ability-movepool synergy, and that’s ok - it’ll be a challenge that we’ve set for ourselves. Last, the Grass-type starter should receive its “specialized” role here, so this ability will be rather unique compared to other Grass-types in the metagame.
Without further ado, here are a few questions to kick this thread off. You may name specific abilities right from the get-go!
1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?
2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?
3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?
Feel free to answer as many or as few questions as you wish. You can reply to other people’s posts for clarification, but be respectful and constructive. Again, no naming specific moves in conjunction with ability suggestions.
For CAP25f, I believe that abilities such as Sheer Force, Technician, or Moxie provide many good options as on offensive mon. First is Sheer Force, SF just gives the mon an extra umph to get past typical walls that an opponent might think to send in against it. SF also gives the mon a major presence as an offensive threat if it has decent move pool and stats, my example for this is Darmanitan. Technician gives the opportunity to take advantage of many moves that might not be as strong such as priority moves or many different coverage moves, ex Roserade w/ hidden power. With Moxie, CAP25f could be turned into a sweeper, which is currently missing.
Regarding CAP25g, the main role that I believe is missing is a Wallbreaker. There are two main abilities that come to mind when I think about CAP25g possibly becoming a wallbreaker, Mold Breaker and Galvanize. Mold Breaker, as you all know, allows the mon to bypass the opponents' abilities when attacking. This can be very helpful when breaking through either fatter mons in the tier or mons that could switch in due to their ability, ex Excadrill w/ mold breaker. Galvanize would open up the path to new viable moves that are now stronger and STAB, mainly priority moves, ex M Pinsir.
Merciless: Merciless requires you to play a highly offensive Pokemon as a passive Pokemon to get its benefits. You are pressured to click Toxic or Toxic Spikes on your first turn to activate Merciless, which is a turn you should be using to pressure with damage output. Alternatively you need support outside of 25f to accomplish this. This is CAP so Toxic Spikes are absorbed by several viable CAPs (Mollux, Crucibelle, Fidgit, Plasmanta), seen as a boon by one (Colossoil), and ignored by others (Kitsunoh, Tomohawk, Naviathan, Cawmodore, Pajantom). We tend to have good matchups with STAB against most of these Pokemon, but nonetheless giving several of them a free switchin when trying to set up your ability is not great play.
Merciless also has the drawback that every time you use fire STAB for all but a few specific moves, you risk inflicting a Burn that invalidates using Merciless at all.
Merciless is arguably better on either 25w or 25g. It has a pretty negative interaction with 25f's STAB and is inaccessible without incredible opportunity cost in either teambuilding, active battle, or both.
Wait a sec, this is totally twisted. We can assume that this pokemon is going to be able to use a set of Fire STAB/Ground STAB/Toxic/filler, right? Its an incredibly hard moveset to deal with with offensive power behind the hits, as shown with Heatran. Against 95% of mons this Pokemon can press dual stabs and have enormous impact without worrying about the other 2 moves. In the situations where the opponent can switch in their wall, you have the offensive momentum and can choose to try and poison on the switch. Its incredibly dangerous for any of the aforementioned poison or steel types to try and switch into this. If you do manage to hit the "check" on the switch with poison, great. If you hit any other pokemon that is able to be poisoned, also great. Very little drawback to pressing Toxic with this pokemon, and in addition to whatever you hit getting toxiced (which is great in itself), you can now switch out and press STABs when that pokemon tries to switch into you in the future, killing it. If this pokemon has even an average offensive stat, a crit resisted/neutral move or crit resisted/neutral z-move will happily take a huge chunk out of any resists. Z-Return is another option that we will absolutely get, which can easily ohko Mega Latis with a mediocre atk stat which is unacceptable imo and hits the few pokemon double-resisting STABs like Gyarados, Pelipper, Mega Lati, and Rotom for an easy ohko when poisoned. Unless of course this is a special attacker, which imo is even more dangerous to deal with.
Its not the case of a mon being already deadweight once its toxiced either- there are offensive switchins to this mon like levitate Stratagem which wont appreciate taking critical Fire STABs in the future if it switches in trying to eat a regular ground or fire move, which otherwise wouldnt mind getting toxiced so much. Its much more dangerous for your opponent to make a play when you Toxic than for you, and this mon vs Fairies and Electrics often has a free turn to click whatever it likes.
tldr: Its wrong to see merciless as a necessity or a setup move before attacking- its a huge bonus to a set that has already proven itself as stupidly strong on existing mons like Heatran (fire/ground/toxic). It simply improves the power of your Toxic, an already near-free move on the set, in order to grant you situations where you have no switchins. And thats not even considering the team support that can toxic your checks and make them redundant before they even switch in to you once. Tspikes from teammates shouldnt be discredited in CAP because they have some very pressuring setters like Pajantom. Furthermore, z-move critting allows you to blast all of your checks and ohko them all with z-moves we're guaranteed to get, such as Return.
Its the wrong ability for this concept that should only be considered if you ignore the checklist we made last thread and want to be able to beat every mon in the tier. Obviously in practice it wont 6-0 every team, but doesnt justify veering off of our discussion and conclusions we made so far.
Sorry for a drive-buy post but we were discussing it in Discord and I wanted to say that while I still love Poison Heal for 25w, Contrary is really growing on me.
Why? Well, looking at our list of Pokemon we should theoretically switch-in on we see:
Zygarde: sets without Outrage
Mega Scizor: Swords Dance, Curse, Defog
Revenankh: Bulk Up
Mega Gyarados
Also, not on our list but relevant in my book are Mew and Latias-M. The thing all these 'mons have in common is that while we resist one of their stabs, they all have access to set-up moves. Now Rev ain't too much of a concern, but we don't actually threaten the rest with our STABs all that much. Once set-up, some of them can actually threaten us, meaning if they just boost on a predicted switch-in we may not win.
+2 64+ Atk Scizor-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Araquanid: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
As a result, I had concluded that 25w needs some way to either stop set-up (phazing or reset moves) or race it, and Contrary can combine with powerful coverage moves to let us race, putting out offensive pressure while also boosting our defenses or speed to match the threats we need to handle.
So far I haven't been impressed with any of the 25w options, so I thought I'd throw another one in that hasn't been mentioned yet. That is Compound Eyes. First of all, it synergizes with literally every status move with 80-95% accuracy, which is way more movepool synergy than a lot of abilities being discussed for 25w so far. As far as fitting with STAB moves, I think an interesting combo for 25w would be Trapping move + some sort of boosting. Many trapping moves are low accuracy, so Compound Eyes would make them more reliable. This would allow 25w to use its bulk to take hits while trapping an opponent so that it can boost its attacking power. There are many other potential synergies that this ability would allow as well, that is just the first one I found. There are also many attacking moves with useful secondary effects, but suffer from low accuracy, limiting their usefulness.
Edit: Another thing to note is that every single water and bug type move would have their accuracy boosted to 100% because they are all over 77% accuracy(77*1.3=100.1)
Regarding CAP25g, the main role that I believe is missing is a Wallbreaker. There are two main abilities that come to mind when I think about CAP25g possibly becoming a wallbreaker, Mold Breaker and Galvanize. Mold Breaker, as you all know, allows the mon to bypass the opponents' abilities when attacking. This can be very helpful when breaking through either fatter mons in the tier or mons that could switch in due to their ability, ex Excadrill w/ mold breaker. Galvanize would open up the path to new viable moves that are now stronger and STAB, mainly priority moves, ex M Pinsir.
Aren't Kartana, Tapu Bulu, and Serperior all incredible wallbreakers? It's hard to imagine CAP 25g finding a place in the metagame as a wallbreaker. It would have to compete with Contrary Leaf Storms, Grassy Terrain Wood Hammers, and whatever the heck Kartana decides to do with its 181 Attack stat (not to mention its dual STABs that take out all relevant Unaware users).
Edit: I suppose the main difference would be that CAP 25g would bring powerful Electric-type moves to the table with Galvanize. But even then, it seems likely that CAP 25g would still be walled by all defensive Grass- and Dragon-types, especially Mega Venusaur, as well as Plasmanta and Magnezone due to their dual typing.
I want to say why I think Triage is a great Ability for CAP 25g. Triage gives us a couple of options to choose a role thanks to the nice Movepool coordination with our STABs and support/status moves that are affected by the Ability:
- We can run a prority attacker with both STABs. We can go Special with both stabs, or a physical-biased mixed attacker with physical coverage.
- We can choose to be a Physical wall, with semi-reliable recovery and reducing the opponent Attack. This can be used to have an answer to SS Necturna, who was broadly discussed in the concept assesment.
The other option I like is No Guard, as it can be used to spread Paralysis to everything except electrit types.
I think what 25g needs in an ability right now is focus. Not necessarily a focus on Physical/Special, since I think there is room in the meta to go either way, but a focus on a role. Abilities like Galvanize, No Guard, and Refrigerate all give it access to a number of different moves, but they don't really give it focus. If we go with one of those abilities, we still won't know what 25g's specialization is when we go into the stat stage.
This is why I support Triage. Triage significantly narrows down our role and gives us focus for the stat stage. Triage synergizes well with a few types of moves: healing moves in general, draining moves in particular, and pivoting moves indirectly. Triage would allow for a unique role of a relatively powerful priority attacker and a slow bulky pivoter all in one set. It also wouldn't necessarily limit us to Physical or Special, although it does lean more towards special considering the available moves.
I think No Guard does give it a focus: an offensive status spreader. Just look at its two STAB movepools and you can imagine the possibilities. It could give CAP 25g a Breloom/Entei/Machamp-type niche where it is a dual damage/status threat that can shut down some of it's would-be checks by inflicting them with status and pivoting out until it can be brought back in to wreck further havoc. It could paralyze Grass-types with powerful Electric moves and threaten Electric-types with Grass status moves, all while not letting in Tapu Fini to set up Misty terrain. I'm thinking it would be an early to mid-game offensive mon that can weaken the enemy team for an ally to sweep later on. I'm definitely leaning more toward special as well, for obvious movepool reasons.
Triage could also be super fun, although it would turn us much more toward a late game role in my opinion, as either a revenge killer that checks things like Mega Pinsir and DD Gyarados or a potential sweeper and wincon like Comfey is in NU. This also fits neatly into the offensive specialist role, meaning that it wouldn't be a generalized attacker but instead a specific counter to certain threats.
I think No Guard does give it a focus: an offensive status spreader. Just look at its two STAB movepools and you can imagine the possibilities. It could give CAP 25g a Breloom/Entei/Machamp-type niche where it is a dual damage/status threat that can shut down some of it's would-be checks by inflicting them with status and pivoting out until it can be brought back in to wreck further havoc. It could paralyze Grass-types with powerful Electric moves and threaten Electric-types with Grass status moves, all while not letting in Tapu Fini to set up Misty terrain. I'm thinking it would be an early to mid-game offensive mon that can weaken the enemy team for an ally to sweep later on. I'm definitely leaning more toward special as well, for obvious movepool reasons.
Triage could also be super fun, although it would turn us much more toward a late game role in my opinion, as either a revenge killer that checks things like Mega Pinsir and DD Gyarados or a potential sweeper and wincon like Comfey is in NU. This also fits neatly into the offensive specialist role, meaning that it wouldn't be a generalized attacker but instead a specific counter to certain threats.
That's what you want from No Guard, but everyone who votes for it will have their own idea about what its role should be, which could and probably would lead to 25g not really being specialized.
For what little it's worth (I'm starting to think it's not worth anything), I still like Infiltrator on CAP25w. Being able to hit through subs is a really solid option for a bulky Water Type, letting us spread status around more effectively, force out set-up sweepers that might try to hide behind subs, etc. It's something that would distinguish us from other Water Types. Unless I fell into a time warp, that was something we were concerned about early on. Infiltrator would let us, for example, use a certain unnamed move which is wet, has 80 BP and may or may not burn targets through a substitute, allowing us to potentially burn something that thought it was safe behind a sub, among other things. In terms of Movepool Coordination, it works with basically any Move you might want to get through a substitute. So, all of them, really.
I'm still going to suggest Steelworker for CAP25g. A viable user of Steelworker with strong Grass/Electric/Steel STAB would have neutral coverage over almost the entire metagame, while only removing Jumboa from the proposed Checks/Counters list. It's something that doesn't currently exist in the metagame, a strong Grass Type attacker that can't be walled by any old thing you through in front of it, which is a valuable niche that could be filled. I'm also in favor of Galvanize, for reasons that have already been sufficiently discussed.
What Substitute users do we significantly affect with Water/Bug, though? Zygarde? Necturna? Pyroak? Switching in to any of those, with a hope to deal normal or resisted damage and pray for a 1 in 3 burn is frankly a ridiculous concept for a defensive mon.
First off, many thanks to Gross Sweep for the further detail with regards to Corrosion and Magic Bounce. As a result... I now have absolutely no clue what ability I want for 25w now =_='
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I asked this on the Discord, and it span out into a pretty good discussion (and still is ongoing), but I'll toss it in here as well, since it's kind of a relevant question.
A lot of the abilities suggested (including my own) for CAP25f are heavily reliant on a turn's setup - often in sort of niche areas. Consider Hustle, Super Luck, Sniper, and Merciless - all of which need time to set up, with the possible exception of the latter using allied hazard support.
Do people feel that 25f is already so inherently strong that it needs to dedicate an action just to setting up it's ability, and does a typing that is naturally prone to being revenged as Fire/Ground have the time to actually perform that set up? Because the more I think about it, the more I feel we are risking shooting 25f in the foot here.
In addition, given that the abilities we're seeing seem particularly adept at tackling Unaware Clefable, as well as working around Haze Tomohawk, is there any particular reason we cannot tackle those threats within our movepool stage?
That's what you want from No Guard, but everyone who votes for it will have their own idea about what its role should be, which could and probably would lead to 25g not really being specialized.
Not to be rude, but this literally applies to the ability you support as well, being Triage - not to mention Galvanize and practically every other ability mentioned. You seem to be wanting a mon focused on priority draining moves, but it could literally just turn out to be 'Priority Weather-Dependent Grass Healing move: The Mon' with nothing about priority attached by your logic. Galvanize seems focused on Priority Attacking as well, but could just as easily end up being 'Electric Mega Gardevoir' by your logic. Disregarding an ability because "Well, people have their own ideas," is an unsatisfactory argument. Like, literally, let me take this earlier post from you supporting Triage aaaaand...
This is why I support Triage. Triage significantly narrows down our role and gives us focus for the stat stage. Triage synergizes well with a few types of moves: healing moves in general, draining moves in particular, and pivoting moves indirectly. Triage would allow for a unique role of a relatively powerful priority attacker and a slow bulky pivoter all in one set. It also wouldn't necessarily limit us to Physical or Special, although it does lean more towards special considering the available moves.
I support No Guard. No Guard helps us focus our roles down by aiming to improve the lack of accuracy in various moves, which we can use to help us focus the stats stage. No Guard synergizes well with a few types of moves: low-accuracy status moves in general, low-accuracy sleep moves in particular, and the broader set of powerful, but low accuracy attacks. No Guard would allow for a unique role of a quite powerful attacker that also spreads status across the enemy team as it does damage. While we may want to focus on special moves due to obvious STAB moves that synergize with No Guard, we do still maintain the option to go for a physical attacking route as well.
There are a few contradictions in that post too, by the way, such as saying we'll be focused but can also keep our options open with physical and special... which while not untrue, doesn't exactly gel well. Still I think the point gets across. There are valid reasons to support both abilities for the sake of concept and potential role-fulfillment.
On the whole, I personally dislike Triage and Galvanize primarily because they focus down very hard on one or two moves. While you can argue that gives us a clear direction, I would counter by saying it's surprisingly limiting. No Guard on the other hand offers a general direction with more options for abuse than just a few moves. While that does create a risk of getting something different than some vocal people in this thread intended, I would argue that's not necessarily a bad thing. Jumbao doesn't abuse sand as well as some people might have hoped, but it still did well at reviving Sun archetypes while also becoming an outstanding mon in its own right. I said it in my previous post and I'll say it again here: If Triage and Galvanize supporters want to spend our only competitive ability slot on a single strategy that looks cool, okay. I can respect that decision. I just think that for the sake of the concept, it would be a better idea to go with an ability that has a wider variety of options for interaction than a couple of potentially good moves (and in the case of Galvanize a bunch of other gimmicky Normal moves).
Hey guys! Because we're working on 3 Pokemon at the same time, I want to focus on one Pokemon at a time. For now, I wanted to focus on CAP25g. I'll talk on each ability in the order they appeared in the thread.
Berserk: I feel like this ability has some potential, especially with some STAB recovery moves we have available. It definitely has potential for this concept, and it differentiates CAP25g, especially because most Grass-types don't boost. I think it might need a little clarification on what Berserk really wants to do to differentiate itself in terms of specialization, but it fits concept decently well.
Emergency Exit: Perhaps I'm a little late talking about this, but Emergency Exit, while fascinating, isn't feasible. Given our inherent stat limitation and limiting effect of the ability itself, I don't see it working out very well.
Galvanize: I feel like this ability has a lot of potential. Tapping into the diversity of Normal-type moves, with their varying secondary effects, while providing hard-hitting Electric-type STAB moves, is excellent for CAP25g to be unique compared to other Grass-types. It's also very flexible as we go along with the project, but the extra focus on Electric-type coverage and Normal-type moves allows us to narrow our focus.
Steelworker: This ability is...confusing to say the least. While I do understand having neutral coverage, Steel-type coverage really only helps against Clefable and Mega Crucibelle on our threatlist. However, they're already hit neutrally by our STAB moves, and it doesn't exactly help anywhere else. I honestly don't see how this ability is helpful at this point in the project.
Grassy Pelt: This ability is really hard to accomplish ability-movepool coordination with, aside from Substitute and Grass-type STAB, which this Pokemon will get anyway. Not really seeing the connection here.
Refrigerate: So I praised Galvanize earlier, but I think Refrigerate is a poor choice. Suddenly a ton of our threatlist goes from either resisting or taking neutral from CAP25g's known coverage to being neutral or even weak to it. Considering this project's focus on ability-movepool coordination, Ice-type coverage would be a large part of a Refrigerate CAP25g's niche, meaning our threatlist comes under fire. I definitely think Galvanize is a better fit than this.
Triage: This ability definitely fits the concept. CAP25g has draining STAB moves available that it could use well for sure, and it's similar to Galvanize in that it offers the potential for Electric-type priority, which would differentiate CAP25g from other Grass-types. I know it's received some dissent because Revenankh has access to it and uses it well on its own, and personally I'm not the biggest fan of the ability either, but it's hard to discredit an ability that fits the criteria of the concept really well. Only thing I can really say about it is that it pushes us into a handful of moves, particularly offensive STAB moves, which may limit later stages, but not that big of a deal.
Prankster: Prankster also provides priority, but to utility rather than offense (except in one case). My problem with Prankster is that we still don't have a clear direction to go with Prankster. This may cause problems later down the line, especially when we're trying to decide what utility moves we want. Above all, if we go this track, we should learn from Tomohawk, where it got a bunch of priority utility moves and really didn't have a distinct direction to go with them. Just some thoughts about a possibly touchy ability.
Speed Boost: I actually find this ability rather interesting. I think posts citing that a Speed Boost CAP25g not automatically turning into Blaziken are absolutely correct. It certainly could be a sweeper, but it could also be a unique pivot that can pressure opposing Pokemon with protection moves and pivoting moves. Essentially, I think the latter case is what Emergency Exit supporters want, but it's done in a much easier way in a project with such restrictions.
Reckless: Similar to Triage, it's hard to discredit an ability that really fits concept. However, I have a few gripes with it. It really forces CAP25g to be a physical Pokemon and really specializes it into only a couple moves, and on top of that, CAP25g will be worn down rather quickly. Given that we're limited by stats, this might not be favorable, but definitely works from a process standpoint.
Tinted Lens: I see the benefit of lifting Grass-type's generally poor coverage, but I'm unclear how this really supports the concept. There isn't really any specific moves that really benefits from Tinted Lens, so it really fails at the point of the concept.
Regenerator: What I'd want to see is how we'd differentiate ourselves from Pokemon like Amoonguss or Tangrowth, especially given our worse defensive typing. Otherwise, I'm not seeing how we "specialize" and how we achieve movepool-ability.
Unburden: Unburden would basically result in a sweeper similar to Hawlucha - it really won't be anything else. You have to stretch a little bit to achieve the movepool-ability coordination though. While you could loosely relate it to set-up moves, other abilities achieve much greater movepool-ability coordination. Honestly, out of the abilities that fit concept well, it's one of the weaker submissions among much stronger ones.
No Guard: I feel as though that CAP25g is receiving the treatment of "because it's a Grass-type, we could abuse these inaccurate status moves that Grass-types usually get!" I don't really see the point of No Guard specifically because of those Grass-type moves, since really any Pokemon with No Guard could abuse them equally, as competitive aspects come first, always. Outside of that, No Guard obviously boosts the accuracy of inaccurate moves, so it does fit concept really well, but unless we decide to overload CAP25g with a lot of coverage options, the concept is rather weakly fulfilled.
Overall, I'd like to group these abilities to realign discussion a little bit. The last group I'm not very interested in seeing discussion on unless I see some serious cases for them.
Strong abilities that relate to ability-movepool coordination: Galvanize
Triage
Reckless
Speed Boost
Abilities that need some clarification regarding ability-movepool coordination / specialization: Regenerator
Unburden
No Guard
Prankster Steelworker
Berserk
Abilities that are weak / don't achieve ability-movepool coordination / mess with threatlist too much: Refrigerate
Tinted Lens
Grassy Pelt
Emergency Exit
No Guard: I feel as though that CAP25g is receiving the treatment of "because it's a Grass-type, we could abuse these inaccurate status moves that Grass-types usually get!" I don't really see the point of No Guard specifically because of those Grass-type moves, since really any Pokemon with No Guard could abuse them equally, as competitive aspects come first, always. Outside of that, No Guard obviously boosts the accuracy of inaccurate moves, so it does fit concept really well, but unless we decide to overload CAP25g with a lot of coverage options, the concept is rather weakly fulfilled.
But not just any Grass type also has access to STAB Electric type moves... certain moves of that type could have devastating potential when paired with No Guard. That's the reason the ability jumps out to me when we talk about ability-movepool synergy on a Grass/Electric type.
It feels like it's time to give my thoughts on 25G, this one will be extremely short, but it's all I feel like writing for this one as I'm pretty set in my opinions here.
Emergency Exit: I am vehemently against this one. I really don't believe this one can be effectively managed, and honestly don't feel comfortable moving forward with it since our goal is a viable starter.
No Guard: I like this one. Several moves that can take advantage, and could lead to a viable mon that's also really cool. I do think there are certain STAB moves I can't name right now that might be a bit to strong, and will need to be reigned in a bit at the move pool stage, but not a major issue as there are great compromises. Overall this one has potential to have a highly competitive outcome and will be high on my list.
Triage: Honestly not a fan. I really would like to attack this ability trying to sway people away from it, but without the ability to break down some scenarios that will 100% require the naming of moves, I cannot. That said I'm more giving my opinion since I know how I'm voting on this one, so not going to spend time trying to tear down an idea that admittedly meets our concept well even if I don't like it.
Refrigerate: I am against giving a mon an -ate ability that doesn't match one of the mons stabs, so this is an easy NO from me. Just a matter of opinion and preference.
Galvanize: My favorite for the Grass type. Has lots of options if we decide to go Physical, Special, or mixed, and is definitely an unexplored frontier with Alolan Golem being the only other mon with it, and it usually favors trapping steels when it does see niche usage in higher tiers. Galvanize will top my votes until it stops being an option, not much to say. It's a really fun and creative idea that I really enjoy. Similar to Technician for 25F I encourage others to think about all the -ate mons available and think about all the interesting ideas we could pull and combine from those to make something truly special in the CAP metagame. I know a lot of people have talked about struggling to find the right direction for our specialist, I am definitely one of those people, and I want to tell others with this issue that I now fullheartedly believe Galvanize is the right direction we've been looking for.
That's going to wrap it up for me, only took the time to write about abilities that either bothered me that I thought were getting a bit to much attention, or that I am a supporter of. I will also say Reckless is a pretty cool option, though our direction will be very defined moving forward so that's something to consider. Anyway I've now given my opinions on all three starters, and look forward to more direct discussion based upon others posts instead of just getting out my own thoughts.
Just discussing the abilities that snake said need discussing.
Regenerator
This is a hard pass for me. This ability puts us in direct competition with Tangrowth, who has better defensive typing than we do and probably better stats as well given our limitations as a starter mon.
Unburden
So the idea here is that it's supposed to be CAP's version of Hawlucha, where you abuse a Terrain Seed and go to town. The issue is the incredible level of offensive synergy between Hawlucha and CAPg. Lucha actually beats most of our projected counters, and CAPg is good against a few of Hawlucha's counters. This has by far the highest potential to produce the next Aurumoth of any suggestion I've heard for these CAPs.
No Guard
This is an interesting idea. Grass and Electric both have abusable options to combine with it. Electric actually removes Grass's weakness to Hurricane, which is a nice bonus that helps the typing/ability combination click better. I would only remark that we should be very careful in selecting coverage options if we go with this typing. Steelworker
This looks good on paper until you think about what Electric STAB and Steel STAB do in the CAP format. Steel and Electric have terrible offensive synergy in CAP that Grass doesn't do near enough to rectify. Think of it this way: Magnezone is already doing nothing right now in the CAP metagame. Magnezone with Grass STAB instead of Magnet Pull would be infinitely worse, even if you fixed Magnezone's awful speed stat as part of the exchange. At the point where you improve Magnezone's speed stat, our stat limit as a starter won't let CAPg be as good as this downgraded version of a mediocre mon.
Berserk
This actually excites me as an idea. It takes advantage of Grass/Electric's biggest strengths as a typing (namely all the healing and status options), and fills a niche that isn't really filled in the metagame right now. Furthermore, it's an exciting ability to explore. Really solid idea.
Prankster
This one I'm less keen on. At base, this also benefits from the same sort of moves that Berserk does. The concept was about exploring the maximum potential of an ability. The problem is Tomohawk. In order to proceed with exploring the maximum potential of Prankster, you have to come to one of two conclusions.
Counclusion 1: Tomohawk is the maximum potential of Prankster.
Counclusion 2: Tomohawk is not the maximum potential of Prankster.
If conclusion 1 is true, then this project accomplishes nothing. We already know the information we could gleam from it, because not only is it a CAP we already assembled, but its frequent play means we have almost 3 full generations of data to work with.
If conclusion 2 is true, it would be incredibly irresponsible to pursue the maximum potential of Prankster, since Prankster is ridiculous in the CAP metagame even not at its full potential.
Either way, I can't see anything we could learn from exploring Prankster that would actually be worth learning.
Priority High Accuracy Sleep is something that Prankster in general has yet to touch, although Prankster Paralyze moves are still a thing.
It may be poll jumping to say that, but it becomes chicken and egg in this instance to not be able to talk about the niche it could fulfil, given that we don't actually have a niche for it.
I can't help but feel that the risk of Refrigerate being broken would be mitigated by its limited stat spread. We don't have a niche defined for it, and yet we still have a list of things that threaten it. If we try to appease all of them, then all we're going to do is create a mon which is trying to appeal to too many criteria, limiting its effectiveness and use. Normal has a largely physical movepool anyway, which helps it work as a potential mixed attacker courtesy of electric and grass special moves and utility, which is one niche I don't think Grass particularly has. Plus, I don't see a problem with having another answer for Landorus-T available.
