-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Format Discussion Pokemon Sun/Moon Random Battle sets
- Thread starter duck
- Start date
- Status
Hey all,
Forgive the megapost
So I was doing some work with certain movesets (specifically the moves listed in the USM Random Battles Role Compendium) and I found a lot of moves that I was surprised were not included in the movesets of specific Pokemon, so I compiled possible moveset changes along with short justifications as to why these Pokemon should or should not get a certain move in Gen 7 Randbats. I made sure that, in my opinion, these new moves would not mess with the synergy of the Pokemon's current moveset too much, if at all. I made different tabs for each move so the explanations could be organized.
All information was gathered from https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Zarel/Pokemon-Showdown/master/data/formats-data.js
This is also Part 1, I have a lot more ideas but I don't have time to right up on all of them.
Also, some miscellaneous removals I can add real quick, as I believe these mons don't need certain moves in their moveset:
Dugtrio: Remove Stealth Rocks and give it Memento instead
I already touched upon this with Dugtrio-Alola, but Stealth Rocks on Dugtrio really does not serve a purpose as a trapper, and, in short, memento would allow anything coming in the opportunity to set up, which is invaluable in Random Battles. Dugtrio-Alola, as the mon with more resistances, should get rocks instead, as both of their speeds are acceptable for outspeeding a large percentage of the metagame.
Metagross-Mega: Remove Agility
Metagross-Mega has over 200 speed. Why does it need agility? If anything, I would want it to have hone claws, as most of it's attacking moves have 90% accuracy. Regular Metagross having agility is perfectly acceptable, as it's speed falls under average/slightly below average, when compared to the Randbats meta. Metagross does not have this need for speed.
Torkoal: Remove Shell Smash:
Oh God, Shell Smash Torkoal. Hitting that dank 154 speed, if I recall correctly, at +2 speed, hardly does it any favors in a metagame where that is not only below average, but also where opponents do not let opponents set up longer than they have to. Honestly, Toxic or Will-o would be much more useful for Torkoal
I hope y'all like these suggestions, and take some of these to heart. I don't expect this to be followed verbatim, but at least some of these are just unobjectionable, in my opinion, and would go far in not only diversifying randbats but also giving the player more options at their disposal at any given moment. I'll post part 2 in the future.
Forgive the megapost
So I was doing some work with certain movesets (specifically the moves listed in the USM Random Battles Role Compendium) and I found a lot of moves that I was surprised were not included in the movesets of specific Pokemon, so I compiled possible moveset changes along with short justifications as to why these Pokemon should or should not get a certain move in Gen 7 Randbats. I made sure that, in my opinion, these new moves would not mess with the synergy of the Pokemon's current moveset too much, if at all. I made different tabs for each move so the explanations could be organized.
All information was gathered from https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Zarel/Pokemon-Showdown/master/data/formats-data.js
This is also Part 1, I have a lot more ideas but I don't have time to right up on all of them.
It appears the majority of Stealth Rock users are either fast Pokemon that could set up rocks before dying (Aerodactyl, Deoxys), bulky non-set up Pokemon (Jirachi, Landorus-T), or slow Pokemon that have very little utility besides setting up rocks after tanking a hit (Sandslash, Armaldo).
Dunsparce currently is just a mon designed to hax with Serene Grace for as long as possible. An admirable and honest strategy, but honestly it's the worst serene grace abuser out of the main three, Jirachi, Togekiss, and itself. Giving Dunsparce Stealth Rock would add to it much-needed utility that would give it a reason to exist. And it has equivalent or better bulk of current slow and bad Pokemon that currently have Stealth Rock (Magcargo, Corsola), so it would fit in easily.
Dugtrio-Alola in my opinion would actually be a better rocker than normal Dugtrio. Although slower, the speed it already receives is definitely enough to set up rocks before being attacked by a majority of the randbats meta, and would feel less of an awkward add on. The steel typing also gives it the potential to live some attacks that would knock out regular Dugtrio. Normal Dugtrio in any meta is designed to trap an unsuspecting opponent and revenge kill, or cripple it while it can't switch out. Stealth Rock does not seem integral to this goal; Dugtrio would be more viable with a move like Memento, which can lead into a successful set up, which is very important mid/lategame. TLDR, Remove Stealth Rocks on Dugtrio, replace it with a better move for it's role, give it to Dugtrio-Alola instead.
Dunsparce currently is just a mon designed to hax with Serene Grace for as long as possible. An admirable and honest strategy, but honestly it's the worst serene grace abuser out of the main three, Jirachi, Togekiss, and itself. Giving Dunsparce Stealth Rock would add to it much-needed utility that would give it a reason to exist. And it has equivalent or better bulk of current slow and bad Pokemon that currently have Stealth Rock (Magcargo, Corsola), so it would fit in easily.
Dugtrio-Alola in my opinion would actually be a better rocker than normal Dugtrio. Although slower, the speed it already receives is definitely enough to set up rocks before being attacked by a majority of the randbats meta, and would feel less of an awkward add on. The steel typing also gives it the potential to live some attacks that would knock out regular Dugtrio. Normal Dugtrio in any meta is designed to trap an unsuspecting opponent and revenge kill, or cripple it while it can't switch out. Stealth Rock does not seem integral to this goal; Dugtrio would be more viable with a move like Memento, which can lead into a successful set up, which is very important mid/lategame. TLDR, Remove Stealth Rocks on Dugtrio, replace it with a better move for it's role, give it to Dugtrio-Alola instead.
Omastar has two basic sets: a boosting set and a hazards set. As far as I know, there's something that prevents the two sets from overlapping (I don't recall getting a set with both Shell Smash and Spikes on Omastar), so an addition of TSpikes to it's arsenal shouldn't harm it's ability to sweep, only help it's ability to set up.
Forretress' whole purpose it to set up hazards, basically. It's only stab move is Gyro Ball, a move I think we all know is very underwhelming in Randbats. Giving it the potential to set up Toxic Spikes, as with Omastar's hazard set, would only let it do it's job better.
Forretress' whole purpose it to set up hazards, basically. It's only stab move is Gyro Ball, a move I think we all know is very underwhelming in Randbats. Giving it the potential to set up Toxic Spikes, as with Omastar's hazard set, would only let it do it's job better.
Hazard Removers in Randbats are unfortunately few and far between, relatively, so any addition to that group of Pokemon is a good thing.
Komala is almost always a choice user, if I recall correctly, and a choice scarf rapid spinner would be excellent, given the small amount of fast-ish rapid spinners in the metagame. It has worked before with mons like Dhelmise and Excadrill. Nothing really more to say, no reason not to include Rapid Spin.
Komala is almost always a choice user, if I recall correctly, and a choice scarf rapid spinner would be excellent, given the small amount of fast-ish rapid spinners in the metagame. It has worked before with mons like Dhelmise and Excadrill. Nothing really more to say, no reason not to include Rapid Spin.
As stated above, Randbats needs more hazard removers.
The only so form of Rotom that currently has Defog is Rotom-Fan. Rotom-Wash, as one of the best Rotom forms, could definitely implement Defog into it's moveset as effectively as fan, while not taking 25% on the switch in and having less weaknesses in general.
Serperior is an excellent jack of all trades, having the potential to sweep with contrary leaf storm, and the potential to stall with leech seed+sub. Defog would only serve to improve the options it has access to, and the excellent speed and bulk it possesses would allow it to either outspeed or live an attack, succesfully defogging in either scenario.
The only so form of Rotom that currently has Defog is Rotom-Fan. Rotom-Wash, as one of the best Rotom forms, could definitely implement Defog into it's moveset as effectively as fan, while not taking 25% on the switch in and having less weaknesses in general.
Serperior is an excellent jack of all trades, having the potential to sweep with contrary leaf storm, and the potential to stall with leech seed+sub. Defog would only serve to improve the options it has access to, and the excellent speed and bulk it possesses would allow it to either outspeed or live an attack, succesfully defogging in either scenario.
The clerics of this meta almost all have the same general traits of either being tanky with recovery options, or having priority. All of these Pokemon fit one or the other of those classifications
Wigglytuff could just generally use more utility. It has offensive options on the off-chance Competitive activates, but even then it has a speed around 130, and deceptively mediocre bulk, meaning it's not going to be sweeping or tanking anytime soon. Heal Bell would at least give it more options as a support Pokemon, which, besides Wish, it doesn't really have.
Illumise has Prankster, meaning it's almost always going to be able to use Aromatherapy, in any given situation. Particularly useful, and similar to the appeal of a Pokemon like Meowstic.
Shaymin itself has Natural Cure, but no way right now to share the love of status removal. Bulky legendaries such as Celebi and Uxie already have this cleric option, and Shaymin would fit perfectly alongside them, with Aromatherapy.
Was also very surprised Sylveon did not have access to Heal Bell in Randbats, but apparently this is so. It is also a Wish-Protect mon, like Audino/Audino-Mega, and has bulk similar to Vaporeon, which currently can have Heal Bell. Would fit right in with the rest of the users.
Wigglytuff could just generally use more utility. It has offensive options on the off-chance Competitive activates, but even then it has a speed around 130, and deceptively mediocre bulk, meaning it's not going to be sweeping or tanking anytime soon. Heal Bell would at least give it more options as a support Pokemon, which, besides Wish, it doesn't really have.
Illumise has Prankster, meaning it's almost always going to be able to use Aromatherapy, in any given situation. Particularly useful, and similar to the appeal of a Pokemon like Meowstic.
Shaymin itself has Natural Cure, but no way right now to share the love of status removal. Bulky legendaries such as Celebi and Uxie already have this cleric option, and Shaymin would fit perfectly alongside them, with Aromatherapy.
Was also very surprised Sylveon did not have access to Heal Bell in Randbats, but apparently this is so. It is also a Wish-Protect mon, like Audino/Audino-Mega, and has bulk similar to Vaporeon, which currently can have Heal Bell. Would fit right in with the rest of the users.
Gligar has access to U-Turn, so why doesn't Gliscor? I could understand a separate moveset in an attempt to differentiate, but Gliscor and Gligar work completely different, as only Gliscor has access to Poison Heal, and only Gligar can get the Eviolite boosts. U-Turn would only serve to help Gliscor maintain momentum and get out of hairy situations, helped out by it's above-average speed for Randbats.
Azelf also would be an admirable U-Turn user, able to quickly do chip damage on a switch, or getting out of bad situations while doing chip, or getting out after setting up rocks.
Both of these Pokemon regularly use U-Turn in their respective tiers (about 20% of the time).
Azelf also would be an admirable U-Turn user, able to quickly do chip damage on a switch, or getting out of bad situations while doing chip, or getting out after setting up rocks.
Both of these Pokemon regularly use U-Turn in their respective tiers (about 20% of the time).
Honestly I feel like I can explain both of these at the same time. Both Pachirisu and Emolga are basically non-offensive, utility mons; no ones going to be sweeping with either anytime soon. There jobs are both to get in, wreak as much havoc as they can with their speed and individual strategy, then get out. However, 'getting out' could be improved upon with the addition of Volt Switch, giving it Stab options to leave an unfavorable matchup.
Noctowl is another utility mon that does not have any real offensive threat, and has a job of mainly supporting the heavy hitters on the team. Reflect would not only improve it's own lastability but also give the opportunity for a boosting mon to come in safely.
Wigglytuff and Hypno I believe would be suited to have Reflect and Light Screen because they are both just very underwhelming Pokemon not only offensively, but also defensively, and the potential to add additional bulk not only for themselves but also the team would be very useful and improve their utility
Uxie and Cresselia are both defensively excellent, unlike the former two, but that also would make them excellent screen setters, as well. Uxie especially with her 201 speed (I believe) and lack of reliable recovery would be very well suited as a dedicated screen user.
Uxie and Cresselia are both defensively excellent, unlike the former two, but that also would make them excellent screen setters, as well. Uxie especially with her 201 speed (I believe) and lack of reliable recovery would be very well suited as a dedicated screen user.
Lucario has always been had excellent offensive presence, making it hard to switch in to it even with a resist, but it's average 176 speed and below average defenses for a steel type prevent it from unlocking it's potential as a sweeper. Agility would unlock this, much like with Kingler, and give it the speed it needs to pose a threat after a switch in.
Incineroar, with the addition of Intimidate, has the potential to be an excellent physical tank, and Bulk Up is the move he needs to realize this, especially with his current access to Darkest Lariat, letting it set up alongside the opponent and ignore potential defensive boosts. Either Bulk Up or Swords Dance would be great additions, as he currently does not get a single boosting move; however, in my opinion, Bulk Up would work best for his playstyle.
Buzzwole is very similar, having great physical bulk, but also access to recovery options like Leech Life (lol imagine saying that during Gen 6). Bulk Up would allow it pull off a very impressive and bulky Mid-Late Game threat.
Buzzwole is very similar, having great physical bulk, but also access to recovery options like Leech Life (lol imagine saying that during Gen 6). Bulk Up would allow it pull off a very impressive and bulky Mid-Late Game threat.
Release Floette when? The Pokemon Gamefreak forgot, Floette-Eternal has not been forgotten by Randbats, usually appearing with a Scarf or Specs set on ladder. However, a nice change of pace from that would be the use of Calm Mind, letting it set up with its base 74/128 Hp/spdef and 182 speed in randbats, iirc. Would make Light of Ruin hit like a truck
One of Magearna's most infamous sets in OU is her doubledance boltbeam set, giving it excellent coverage and sweeping potential. So it seems strange that CM Mag is not represented in Randbats, and would further improve upon it's excellent moveset
One of Magearna's most infamous sets in OU is her doubledance boltbeam set, giving it excellent coverage and sweeping potential. So it seems strange that CM Mag is not represented in Randbats, and would further improve upon it's excellent moveset
Zygarde has the potential to be an extremely bulky Pokemon. Much like the Bulk Up suggestions, Zygarde has impressive physical bulk, especially when it becomes Zygarde Complete, and the addition of coil would do it wonders in that regard, possibly also being used in tandem with Dragon Dance, similar to the aforementioned shift gear cm set of Magearna
Continuing with the trend of bulky physical walls, Avalugg is an incredibly bulky Pokemon on the physical side with reliable recovery and terrible speed. Seems like a perfect curse user to me, and it is personally shocking that it doesn't currently learn it.
Emboar has the power necessary to be an impressive sweeping force, but neither the speed nor bulk, relatively speaking. Flame Charge would remedy the former issue, improving it's viability as an offensive powerhouse without needing to rely on a Choice scarf
Regigigas is Regigi-bad, that's no secret. However, in randbats, if it can survive 5 turns in the lategame, through sub shenanigans or parafusion, it can become the offensive threat we've always wanted it to be, creating a feeling not dissimilar to Exodia from Yu-Gi-Oh. But even so, Power-Up Punch would only serve to not only make it bearable during the 5 turns of Slow Start, but also give it the overwhelming power that it should have after dealing with 5 turns of PU status.
Also, some miscellaneous removals I can add real quick, as I believe these mons don't need certain moves in their moveset:
I already touched upon this with Dugtrio-Alola, but Stealth Rocks on Dugtrio really does not serve a purpose as a trapper, and, in short, memento would allow anything coming in the opportunity to set up, which is invaluable in Random Battles. Dugtrio-Alola, as the mon with more resistances, should get rocks instead, as both of their speeds are acceptable for outspeeding a large percentage of the metagame.
Metagross-Mega has over 200 speed. Why does it need agility? If anything, I would want it to have hone claws, as most of it's attacking moves have 90% accuracy. Regular Metagross having agility is perfectly acceptable, as it's speed falls under average/slightly below average, when compared to the Randbats meta. Metagross does not have this need for speed.
Oh God, Shell Smash Torkoal. Hitting that dank 154 speed, if I recall correctly, at +2 speed, hardly does it any favors in a metagame where that is not only below average, but also where opponents do not let opponents set up longer than they have to. Honestly, Toxic or Will-o would be much more useful for Torkoal
I hope y'all like these suggestions, and take some of these to heart. I don't expect this to be followed verbatim, but at least some of these are just unobjectionable, in my opinion, and would go far in not only diversifying randbats but also giving the player more options at their disposal at any given moment. I'll post part 2 in the future.
commented in orangered
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7randombattle-809764033
Pretty small one, but I got a Torterra with EQ, Stone Edge, Rock Polish, Synthesis, and the Overgrow ability. It probably should roll Shell Armor when it doesn't get any offensive grass moves.
Pretty small one, but I got a Torterra with EQ, Stone Edge, Rock Polish, Synthesis, and the Overgrow ability. It probably should roll Shell Armor when it doesn't get any offensive grass moves.
Confusion nerf makes this a not great idea and very situationalSwagger, Psych Up, Return, Knock Off/Drain Punch should be a thing for Regigigas imo
The explanation is that Shell armor is rated so low as an ability that the set generator counts it as a non-factor. We’d either have to move it (which, disclaimer, could im not sure have it exist on mons instead of more useful abilities) up or someone would have to code for a zero rating > literally zero possible utility forcing to stop that from happening.
We might code a special exception specifically for Torterra. We have a similar check on Ambipom if it doesn't have technician moves, changing it to pickup instead of using its second best rated ability skill link (which also is useless because all its multi hit moves are technician moves)
i don't have a big problem with that set. toxic+recover is amazing in randoms, especially on a fast and bulky mon, fire blast kills the steel types immune to tox (and resistant to psychic judgement and ice beam) and hits most things pretty hard overall, and ice beam is just overall a great move. in fact, that combo happens to have been psychic arceus's primary analysis set in gen6. tox/recover/judgment/fire blast would probably be optimal, but this is acceptable imo
edit: OOPS... looks like TI fixed that part
edit: OOPS... looks like TI fixed that part
Last edited by a moderator:
(it's the fact that it's taking the z crystal I assume)
presumably it had calm mind, which rejected play rough and return, then it rolled belly drum and rejected calm mind and dazzling gleam. or something like that. and got stuck with the last rolled moves.
Got STABless, sweet veil BD Slurpuff carrying a special move as its coverage which is like bad on so many levels
Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sweet Veil
- Substitute
- Belly Drum
- Flamethrower
- Drain Punch
Calm Mind Unburden has won me several games -- I agree Sweet Veil needs to go.
What item for CM Slurpuff, then? Sitrus still, or something else?
I have proof of that
Also, what's with the random Assault Vests? No image proof, but I got AV Rayquaza, Noivern, Slurpuff... while I haven't seen a single AV, say, Conkeldurr.
No vested conk because guts strong, but the rest should be investigated, mostly Noivern
Code:
} else if (counter.Physical + counter.Special >= 4 && template.baseStats.spd >= 65 && template.baseStats.hp + template.baseStats.def + template.baseStats.spd >= 235) {
item = 'Assault Vest';"If the Pokemon has 4 attacks, a base Special Defense of at least 65, and a total sum of base HP/Def/SpD of at least 235, and another, higher priority item hasn't been generated already, the Pokemon gets an Assault Vest."
These are the requirements to be generated with an Assault Vest. Nothing more, nothing less. Conkeldurr generally doesn't run AV due to its other potential items (life orb due to sheer force, flame orb due to guts, choice band i think might also exist if conk rolls 4 attacks iron fist) would be of higher priority than an Assault Vest. Noivern runs an Assault Vest if it rolls 3 attacks + U-turn because it fits the base bulk requirements to do so, and it cannot roll Choice Specs in this case due to there not being a piece of code allowing Choice Specs + U-turn (only Choice Scarf 3 special + u-turn). Slurpuff rolls an Assault Vest if it's generated with four attacks. Rayquaza rolls an Assault Vest if it has 3 physical attacks and Draco Meteor.
I'm not really opposed to most of these, since it's not really feasible from a coding standpoint, as far as I know, to force specific Pokemon to roll a setup move. They're simply generated with four compatible moves from their pool with a few restrictions on STAB and move redundancy, and their item is generated based on the moves rolled.
As a proposal for a change, though: Consider allowing Choice Specs to be generated with 3 special attacks and U-turn for compatible Pokemon.
Unfortunately, DoubleOD, it's not possible to remove one without removing the other. So long as there exists enough moves for a Slurpuff to roll sets without Belly Drum or Calm Mind (and i do not believe it is feasible to force Slurpuff specifically to roll one or the other on all sets), Sweet Veil variants will exist. The only way to remove Sweet Veil Slurpuff would honestly be to decrease Slurpuff's moveset to four moves (BD, Play Rough, Drain Punch, Return?), therefore eliminating any chance of getting a set without a setup move. However, this is a very extreme measure and is therefore somewhat unlikely to happen.
As another example of this, this conundrum is why Linoone doesn't have Seed Bomb in its movepool in Randbats right now. If it did, it would potentially be able to get, like, Choice Band sets or something with Extreme Speed / Shadow Claw / Seed Bomb / Stomping Tantrum. And that is, of course, not really optimal.
A Random Duck
Banned deucer.
this set seems... really awkward to use. setting up a z happy hour and then rest thus giving them 2 turns to phaze me out. I was thinking maybe replacing rest with superpower?
Last edited:
What the heck????????
Anyways I think Malamar fell victim to a check at the bottom of the code that rejects the first non-STAB it finds if it is a Dark Pokemon without a Dark move, which caused the following path:
Anyways I think Malamar fell victim to a check at the bottom of the code that rejects the first non-STAB it finds if it is a Dark Pokemon without a Dark move, which caused the following path:
- Superpower, Sleep Talk, Happy Hour, Psycho Cut. Because Superpower is the first move to reach a rejection condition (Dark mon with no Dark moves, and this move is not a STAB attack), it gets removed.
- Sleep Talk, Happy Hour, Psycho Cut, Knock Off. Because Rest is not present, Sleep Talk is rejected. Normally this removes Rest from the move pool, but if it's the only move remaining, it is not removed. I'm not sure what the best policy to fix this is.
- Happy Hour, Psycho Cut, Knock Off, Rest. No more moves in the pool, so nothing can get rejected now.
Two questions (based on the same battle):
Why does Palossand run Protect? Does it offer any utility over every other mon that could run Leftovers + Protect? I got a set in Randbats today that was Stealth Rock/ Earth Power / Protect / Shadow Ball and I just wished and wished for Protect to be replaced by any other move but it never happened.
Can we add Choice Scarf as a possible item to Genesect? More Choice Scarf users are good so that you don't just randomly get swept by Kartana, Raichu-Alola or Naganadel with no counterplay whatsoever.
Why does Palossand run Protect? Does it offer any utility over every other mon that could run Leftovers + Protect? I got a set in Randbats today that was Stealth Rock/ Earth Power / Protect / Shadow Ball and I just wished and wished for Protect to be replaced by any other move but it never happened.
Can we add Choice Scarf as a possible item to Genesect? More Choice Scarf users are good so that you don't just randomly get swept by Kartana, Raichu-Alola or Naganadel with no counterplay whatsoever.
- Status