Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Bellossom sounds like the least interesting thing to use in the world but I'll consider splitting my run when the time comes for that

Seeing as I have rather philosophical issues with X Item use perhaps it will be valuable to test Barboach in a different manner from how you did

(In general I'd rather use something earlier even if waiting for it later might be better, so that's a consideration for Pooch and Zubat if that happens)

At this point I definitely have interest in testing Dodrio, I've always been happy with it in FRLG so the comparison here would be interesting

Kadabra is kind of boring to me tbh but I'll probably use it at least until Giraffe comes along


Oddish, Doduo, Kadabra/Girafarig, Barboach, Poochyena looks like a good group, mayyyybe Spheal or Whismur or Solrock as a sixth

Merritt if there's any final thoughts on the previous groupings for input to the rankings you specifically want to see before I begin, let me know


Edit1: completely forgot abra doesn't get moves until it evolves, Poochyena ended up having to solo Roxanne which it's capable of doing with cheese from level 13 (15 post fight). There are a X Defend and X Special that you pick up naturally in the preceding routes and Bite is able to 2/3HKO the geodudes so with some favourable flinch and move choice rng you get through the Geodudes without damage. At Nosepass you can X Defend, spam Sand Attack, X Special, and then Bite to victory with probably one Potion used.

Edit2: Abra will be able to use the trainers in Brawlys gym to get to level 16 at which point it stomps without issue. Poochyena is actually able to contribute a bit here too, as the several Meditites are unable to threaten it, useful during the last bit of the Abra grind.

Edit3: Oddish is pretty good so far! First could levels are a little iffy but once Poisonpowder comes in that plus Bullet Seed is great, and there's a ton of double battles readily available for easy experience. Gloom shows up quickly, before Mauville to me, and is very strong on acquisition. Expect Wattson will be a strong matchup, coming soon. Meh it did fine, Magneton was a frickin pain in the ass.

Edit4: Damn oddish/Abra/poochyena level up fast. Picked up solrock and Barboach and I'm still level 36 across the board by Winona, no changes from the usual routine. Solrock I only picked up because everything was already matching Torkoals level by fallarbor. Solrock has been fine in general, rolled through most of flannery and can actually use overheat which is neat, Gloom slowed down after level 30 but it's rolling again as a Vileplume. Whiscash hasn't faced anything that could challenge it. Mightyena has been solid, could see it in D. Kadabra hasn't been a world beater but likely the best member of the team. Norman was a don't pain in the ass, had to keep running until Kadabra lived an attack behind Reflect to get past Slaking, otherwise his team posted no issues.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Time for a mid-game update

Disclaimer: For reasons unbeknownst to me I'm somehow a good 3-4 levels higher than my usual runs across the board. I haven't done anything differently in terms of who I've been fighting so I can only imagine the growth rate curves are spiking my levels, which is unfortunate because it's compromising to some degree how effectively I can judge the mid-game performance, not a lot of things to struggle against barring Norman's Slaking. This is actually interesting as it could lend an extra boost to certain mons who level particularly fast (Solrock = Fast, Poochyena = Medium) or who level on a fast curve through the lower levels (Abra/Oddish = Medium Slow). Final context, I've cleared everything up to the water routes, only the Magma Cavern and Aqua Hideout remain before I progress to the water routes and the end game.

(side note: Merritt I still see Natu in E rank, I nommed it to be moved up to D a ways back, Xatu is a solid mon and way too good for E rank)

Mightyena, level 40, Lonely Nature
Strength / Shadow Ball / Dig / Howl
116 / 91 / 69 / 64 / 55 / 69

- I could see this in D based on its performance through the mid-game. It's basically about as inoffensive as you could imagine. It's early training period sucks because Poochyena has zero bulk, but it is capable of solo sweeping Roxanne at level 13 since Nosepass likes to spam Harden which is pretty notable, and Bite is able to carry it to its early evolution (level 18), i.e. by competing against the Meditites in Brawly's gym. Once it's Mightyena it catches up to par and hasn't really fallen behind, Bite does fine for the first 28 levels or so before it falls off and Strength becomes your primary weapon once you get it around level 24 anyway. Intimidate pulls Mightyena's bulk from mediocre to passable, and it now has Shadow Ball as pseudo-STAB (hi Absol!). In my mind its comparable to Makuhita's curve in how it evolves early and is there being solid and inoffensive to this point, though obviously with significantly worse stats and STAB. I suspect the end-game will determine how this places, if it sucks vs Tate and Liza / Phoebe than E tier will be appropriate but if it can put in work in those matchups where it should be favored I think it will have justified D tier.

Whiscash, level 39, Naughty nature
Surf / Earthquake / Ice Beam / Rest
149 / 82 / 75 / 76 / 67 / 66

- I haven't really had the chance to use this long enough to get a clear picture on where it stands but so far it seems to be justifying what it appears to be, that is Swampert for people who didn't pick Mudkip. Was kind of annoying to actually get at a reasonable level but Magnitude did an okay job of fighting trainer Tentacool and whatnot on the ocean route and once it evolved nothing has really been able to challenge Whiscash, it's moves are just too strong and the rest of its stats are average enough to not be fussed by anything it fights. The Ground / Water / Ice coverage is as valuable here as it is with Pert and there's really nothing that blocks it (hi Surskit). Ranking to be determined but at this point I see no reason to object to the previous nominations to B.

Vilplume, level 39, Gentle nature
Sludge Bomb / Solarbeam / Sleep Powder / Moonlight
115 / 70 / 70 / 93 / 94 / 55

- This currently sits in C, I would put in B personally. The Oddish phase is literally nothing, Bullet Seed is strong enough to be serviceable through the mid-20s and once it gets the Powders it's able to stun/poison/sleep the things it doesn't like. This thing also levels up ridiculously fast in the early game, I acquired mine right outside of Slateport and it was level 21 and a Gloom just before entering Mauville. Gloom is very solid up to about level 30, Bullet Seed starts falling off hard at the late 20s but it still has Sleep Powder to enable it, and then once Norman goes down you have Sludge Bomb immediately and a Leaf Stone quickly and Vileplume is great. Great stats, very bulky, very powerful, quick enough, Sludge Bomb tears through Flying types who can't even threaten to 2HKO you, I ran it out against much of Fortree gym and it also one shot Winona's Swablu and Tropius. Gloom puts in a solid performance vs Wattson as well, doesn't really want to fight Magneton because the Steel type will wall it despite Sleep Powder, but beats Manectric pretty handily as well as Voltorb if it doesn't explode on you. Capable of supporting vs Flannery, you will be able to outspeed and Sleep Powder everything which means you beat Numel and Slugma as a Gloom and can chunk Camerupt before it wakes up, or Sleep/Poison Torkoal if you aren't fighting the Camel. Doesn't really want to play vs Norman, Gloom's lower defense hurts here, but it does fine vs Spinda and Linoone. Overall a very solid all-around mon and to this point a clear B in my eyes, perhaps it falls off against later enemies to keep it in C? Maybe with the theoretically unfavourable Phoebe/Glacia/Drake lineup but if it can put in any decent work there plus contribute vs Wallace it ought to be a slam dunk rise.

Kadabra (no trade), level 38, Naughty nature
Psychic / Shock Wave / Reflect / Recover
90 / 40 / 31 / 107 / 61 / 92

- I was skeptical going in, but probably because it had been so long since I'd used anything actually good. Performs exactly as you'd expect an A rank to do, OHKOs most things, you're pretty surprised when you don't and aren't surprised at all when you auto-die to physical attacks. Psychic STAB scales up early and often, Electric coverage is great, and Reflect is significantly useful in getting through the Slaking gauntlet at Norman, that battle relied on chipping it a bit with other things, living an attack behind Reflect and getting off some Psybeams to weaken it for a deathblow. Comfortably A tier.

Solrock, level 39, Hardy
Rock Slide / Confusion / Flamethrower / Overheat
105 / 90 / 81 / 58 / 62 / 65

- A lot of what goes for Mightyena can be applied here too, specifically the part about it being inoffensive. Rock with Levitate is pretty useful through the mid game and it hits reasonably hard with its Rock attacks so you don't ever notice it underperforming to this point. Being able to use Overheat is pretty neat too, but it's special attack means it really doesn't hit as hard as you like. This is D tier for now, but I'm wondering if it might end up in E. The Rock / Psychic typing becomes a pretty severe liability from this point forward (water weak and dark weaks in particular) and it's power is already at its ceiling which makes its ability to fight in the late game very suspect. As a counterpoint though, I didn't notice at the time but this guy levels suuuper fast. Still, I don't envy it trying to fight against Juan, Archie, Sidney, Phoebe, Glacia, Drake (lots of Crunches), or Wallace. I'll look for reasons to keep this in D, but I'm betting it should drop.

Dodrio, level 38, Adamant
Tri Attack / Fly / Steel Wing / Hyper Beam
105 / 106 / 58 / 51 / 55 / 92

- If people ever wonder how so many Rare Candies show up it's because two minutes of off the beaten path exploring gets you four Rare Candies between Norman and the Safari Zone. Conveniently, four Rare Candies was the precise amount needed to evolve the level 27 Doduo I captured. I haven't had much time with Dodrio yet but it hits like a truck, the obvious comparable being Kadabra. Tri Attack and Fly are consistently powerful and Hyper Beam is an absolute nuke and it will outspeed basically everything at this point. Considering there was zero downtime to get it up and running (Fly HM, Steel Wing TM, Hyper Beam from Lilycove, a few Rare Candies invested), as long as it maintains a solid performance through the end game there's no reason this shouldn't be C - end game performance of course being the major qualifier for something that misses the early and most of the mid-game. That being said, if we take the Kadabra comparison as reasonable, it's entirely reasonable that a late-game comparable to an A rank mon would end up in C, so long as its performance does justify that.

 

[Merritt]

Quick notes:

Natu was contentious between you and Punchshroom. I'd like another person to run (hopefully with a less blessed Natu since yours was what, less than 10 total IVs off flawless barring Attack?) for a third perspective before moving it. Personal experience for me put it somewhat close to Girafarig though with a higher requirement of TMs immediately, since using Natu/Xatu without a Psychic TM results in something rather close to an F rank. There's fortunately almost certainly the funds for a Psychic TM at that point, though that does ding Natu a little.

If you intend to have Mightyena attempt combat then I'd suggest putting Crunch over Shadow Ball for most scenarios in endgame - unless you boost Attack using Howl or something Crunch is usually going to be a little stronger. Also able to benefit from Blackglasses, while the Spell Tag is RNGlocked. There's of course no major battles against Medicham at any point and trying to have Mightyena take on the two in Victory Road is pretty much life or death (usually death) since both have HJK.

Personally I'm a huge fan of Vileplume - the first version of this list actually had it at B rank - but there's several pages of discussion quite early on that showed a consensus of dropping it, suggest reading those as well.

It does sound like you're fighting a lot of the optional trainers from the reference to Meditites in Brawly's gym, that might be why you're at a fairly high level.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Quick notes:

Natu was contentious between you and Punchshroom. I'd like another person to run (hopefully with a less blessed Natu since yours was what, less than 10 total IVs off flawless barring Attack?) for a third perspective before moving it. Personal experience for me put it somewhat close to Girafarig though with a higher requirement of TMs immediately, since using Natu/Xatu without a Psychic TM results in something rather close to an F rank. There's fortunately almost certainly the funds for a Psychic TM at that point, though that does ding Natu a little.

Sure that seems fine, though I'm not certain if Punchshroom was objecting to Natu as much as he was defending Banette, perhaps he can confirm? There definitely should be enough funds for Psychic, I had enough for Flamethrower for Solrock by the time I fought Norman without doing anything excessive, the occasional buying and selling of items (I even bought some X stuff I never used!), but mostly just selling stuff when I ran out of room in the bag.

If you intend to have Mightyena attempt combat then I'd suggest putting Crunch over Shadow Ball for most scenarios in endgame - unless you boost Attack using Howl or something Crunch is usually going to be a little stronger. Also able to benefit from Blackglasses, while the Spell Tag is RNGlocked. There's of course no major battles against Medicham at any point and trying to have Mightyena take on the two in Victory Road is pretty much life or death (usually death) since both have HJK.

Based on the rough damage calcs Crunch and Shadow Ball are about equal in power if Mightyena were to have it already, a gap that could widen and would be exacerbated if I use Howl at all. I'm treating it like I did Absol atm, where Shadow Ball replaced Bite as the pseudo-STAB working off the stronger Attack stat.

Personally I'm a huge fan of Vileplume - the first version of this list actually had it at B rank - but there's several pages of discussion quite early on that showed a consensus of dropping it, suggest reading those as well.

It does sound like you're fighting a lot of the optional trainers from the reference to Meditites in Brawly's gym, that might be why you're at a fairly high level.

Vileplume is a beast and I'm curious where that other discussion is, unless they were letting Oddish and Gloom lag behind in levels (and thus making power differences very noticeable) I'm not sure where their criticism would be.

Is is not standard practice to fight every gym trainer? I would assume most players would fight enough trainers to keep their team at reasonable levels and gym trainers definitely fall into a category of things to be fought. Most route trainers also would, excluding ones that are out of the way like the island north of Rustboro, some water route trainers near the Abandoned Ship, or the trainers below Mt. Pyre that need multiple pass throughs to hit.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

As an aside while I was looking at Mightyena comparables in the tiers, why is Kecleon D tier? Has anyone ever actually used it? Isn't it just actual garbage?

I think the only times I've used it has been catching one out of the box and immediately dropping it because its Psybeam is piss-weak. If anyone has experience or wants to give it a test drive I'd be very curious.

 

[Merritt]

As an aside while I was looking at Mightyena comparables in the tiers, why is Kecleon D tier? Has anyone ever actually used it? Isn't it just actual garbage?

I think the only times I've used it has been catching one out of the box and immediately dropping it because its Psybeam is piss-weak. If anyone has experience or wants to give it a test drive I'd be very curious.

Yep.

It's not good but it's passable. Despite its excellent special movepool via TMs, it's going to lean mostly on physical attacks (Shadow Ball and Strength swapped to/in addition to Brick Break later being the carry moves there). Can be given special coverage of choice to assist with major battles - the obvious choice is Thunderbolt and Ice Beam. Coming completely free at a passable level means it can immediately start to contribute against Winona if given said special TMs.

Biggest drawbacks are lack of neutral power (anything besides STAB is going to be pitiful against neutral targets) and terrible Speed leaving it outsped most of the time and constantly eating hits that make it lose STAB. It has enough bulk, especially on the special side, to take the attacks but it's going to get chipped down and lose STAB on Strength fairly often.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Biggest drawbacks are lack of neutral power (anything besides STAB is going to be pitiful against neutral targets) and terrible Speed leaving it outsped most of the time and constantly eating hits that make it lose STAB.

To me this seems like more than enough in its own entirety to immediately disqualify anything from being considered passable.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Personally I'm a huge fan of Vileplume - the first version of this list actually had it at B rank - but there's several pages of discussion quite early on that showed a consensus of dropping it, suggest reading those as well.

Took a look at the early pages of discussion and they were pretty weak tbh, just about every nomination undersold its ability to compete against gym matchups by discounting any capacity to compete against Flannery and especially Winona suggesting it's a negative matchup (yourself included, while Vileplume outright wins against Swablu/Pelipper/Tropius) or by arguing its speed as a weakness (something I haven't seen myself with a 8-13 range IV, even when outsped Plume just doesn't take damage). The most coherent argument came from WaterBomb who spoke on a relatively poor performance against the E4 and Champion which is something I'll definitely be watching to validate, the only post since then was one of support for B by Infernape2018.

As a point of note, I also didn't see a consensus, you had your first opinion of support for B, two people posted suggesting C but it didn't appear either of them had used it, and then you moved it to C after testing it yourself. I don't think this represents a rigorous examination of its placement.

 

[sumwun]

Right now I don't care very much whether Solrock is D tier or E tier. (and the weak opinion I do have is leaning toward E) The only problem I have with Cloverleaf's post about Solrock is that you should have taught it shadow ball. It needed shadow ball a whole lot more than Mightyena does. Mightyena already had crunch to hit psychics, but shadow ball makes Solrock like 7 to 8 times better in the seventh gym.

To me this seems like more than enough in its own entirety to immediately disqualify anything from being considered passable.

Kecleon can super effectively hit almost every Pokemon in the last 3 gyms and the Elite 4. I think this makes up for having no STAB.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Right now I don't care very much whether Solrock is D tier or E tier. (and the weak opinion I do have is leaning toward E) The only problem I have with Cloverleaf's post about Solrock is that you should have taught it shadow ball. It needed shadow ball a whole lot more than Mightyena does. Mightyena already had crunch to hit psychics, but shadow ball makes Solrock like 7 to 8 times better in the seventh gym. Kecleon can super effectively hit almost every Pokemon in the last 3 gyms and the Elite 4. I think this makes up for having no STAB.

I considered giving Solrock Shadow Ball. In my judgement Mightyena needed the power boost more, Solrock already should do fairly well with Rock Slide for Xatu and immunity to Claydol's Earthquake, but I will take into consideration that it does have a super effective coverage move available to it for that gym.

Does Kelceon even care if its hitting things super effectively? It's pretty weaksauce which was a point of my criticism, it being very weak if not hitting stab

 

[adman2]

I just did damage calculations with Kecleon vs. Manaphy. Manaphy was used because it has the same base Defense and Special Defense, while also being weak to one of Kecleon's special attacks. In the calculator, both have neutral natures and 31 IVs in every stat with 0 EVs.

Kecleon Return: 29.9-35.1%

Kecleon Thunderbolt: 26.3-31.6%


This is one example of why neutral attacks with STAB from the higher attacking stat are better than super effective non-STAB attacks from the weaker stat.

 

[sumwun]

Does Kelceon even care if its hitting things super effectively? It's pretty weaksauce which was a point of my criticism, it being very weak if not hitting stab

Super effective means double damage, even for weak Pokemon like Kecleon. Of course, it's still worse than being both STAB and super effective, but not getting STAB doesn't automatically make a Pokemon exactly 1.5 times weaker. (and sometimes it doesn't affect Kecleon at all; a super effective shadow ball is stronger than return regardless of STAB)

I just did damage calculations with Kecleon vs. Manaphy. Manaphy was used because it has the same base Defense and Special Defense, while also being weak to one of Kecleon's special attacks. In the calculator, both have neutral natures and 31 IVs in every stat with 0 EVs.

Kecleon Return: 29.9-35.1%

Kecleon Thunderbolt: 26.3-31.6%


This is one example of why neutral attacks with STAB from the higher attacking stat are better than super effective non-STAB attacks from the weaker stat.

This is true for a lot of Pokemon, but Kecleon in particular wants thunderbolt or ice beam because color change sometimes prevents it from getting STAB on return.

84 Atk [poison type level 50] Kecleon Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def [level 50] Celebi: 37-44 (21.1 - 25.1%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
84 SpA [poison type level 50] Kecleon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD [level 50] Celebi: 51-60 (29.1 - 34.2%) -- 2.9% chance to 3HKO

 

[Punchshroom]

For the record, I don't mind Natu moving back to its initial rank of D, so long as Girafarig gets to rise to C in the next slate.

Kecleon is probably passable enough for D; it has the bulk and coverage to perform just about adequately enough against the remaining bosses, with a moveset of Shadow Ball, Screech, Ice Beam, and Brick Break that should serve it well for the rest of the game.

Perhaps I underestimated the early Oddish period due to its fast leveling rate. If Vileplume proves to hold out better than expected vs the E4 then I would not be at all opposed to a rise, though there's still the question of whether Bellossom could compare. Personally I don't imagine missing out on Winona and Team Hideout(s) to be a particularly noticeable detriment, especially if Bellossom can make up for it with a better Tate&Liza matchup as well as (slightly) improved E4 performance.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Yeah thinking more about the oddish period, three of the first four battles you're going to fight with it are double battles that Kadabra/Combusken/Marshtomp will carry, and the next one after is a fisherman. The rival battle is next which it can contribute to, and then you get two additional double battles to farm up. Possibly also a low leveled Trick House, can't remember if I did that. It's no wonder I evolved so quickly.

Edit: Oh I think there's also a youngster before the rival fight, iirc I was able to take him with oddish since it had picked up enough levels for powders and decent bullet seed damage

 

[VagueKatti]

I used Kecleon in my most recent run of Sapphire, and while I’ll admit I don’t remember enough to give *specific* match-up details I can concur with Punchsroom’s D. I used a similar moveset, albeit exchanging Screech for Return and Ice Beam for Thunderbolt, and it was purely competent. It did alright against Tate and Liza, Wallace, and Sidney due to resisting their STABs after Turn 1 and hitting back with a super-effective hit, though it didn’t contribute much outside of route-clearing in any other fight.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Going to run through Tate and Liza with different combinations of team members leading (Dodrio, Solrock, Vileplume at level 40, Whiscash at 41, Mightyena at 42, Kadabra at 43)

Dodrio and Solrock
- Tri Attack does 40% to Claydol (plus a freeze), Rock Slide does 50% to Xatu and 15ish% to Claydol, one more of each killed Claydol and Xatu lived on a second Slide (spread penalty still applied). Xatu is healed, Lunatone in, Dodrio misses a Steel Wing, Rock Slide does 40-45% to both Xatu and Lunatone. Steel Wing kills Lunatone, roughly 60%, then dies to Xatu crit Psychic, Rock Slide does 20ish% to Solrock and 45ish to Xatu. Mightyena comes in, T+L spam Potions on Xatu, Strength is hitting for 40%, I finally Shadow Ball it and it dies from 60%, Shadow Ball does 60%ish to Solrock and Whiscash Surf finishes it off.
- Good pairing, EQ immune is lol, Solrock doesn't end up doing very much, the spread penalty to Rock Slide is too much. Dodrio beast.

will post fewer damage calcs as time passes and things become redundant

Mightyena+Dodrio
- Shadow Ball does 65-70% to Xatu, Tri Attack, Mightyena takes 30% from -1 spread Earthquake. Shadow Ball does 50%ish to Claydol, Dodrio kills Xatu. Steel Wing does 60%ish to Solrock, Shadow Ball kills. Steel Wing does 70% ish to Lunatone, Shadow Ball kills. For shits and giggles, Hyper Beam from Dodrio does about 85% to Claydol. Hyper Beam does 55% to Lunatone.
- Monster pairing, stomps this gym.

Mightyena+Vileplume
- Xatu conveniently sets up a Sunny Day, Mightyena Shadow Balls it for 70%, Earthquake does 25-30 to both Mighty and Vileplume, Plume OHKOs Claydol with Solar Beam. Vileplume is now under Chlorophyll, immediately OHKOs Solrock with Solarbeam, then dies to Xatu Psychic, Mightyena finishes Xatu. Kadabra comes out for a test, Shock Wave does 25ish to Lunatone. Mightyena etc etc.
- Vileplume can actually fuck up Tate and Liza. Auto-dies if it eats a Psychic but the AI is silly and gifts it two free kills. Neat. Mightyena continues to beast the gym.

Kadabra+Vileplume
- The theoretical worst pair. Shock Wave crit OHKOs Xatu. Earthquake murders Kadabra. Solar Beam charge. Whiscash in. Plume dies before it can attack, Surf does 35% to 40% to both Claydol and Lunatone, takes 25% from Earthquake. Solrock in cause sure. Surf does the same, Overheat is able to finish Claydol from 25%, surprisingly. Whiscash has lived three Earthquakes so far, finally dies to a Psychic, Solrock takes down Lunatone with a Rock Slide to follow Whiscash's second Surf. Dodrio in and cleans.
- Ran this a second time because lolcrit. Kadabra set up Reflect, Plume charges, Xatu CMs, Claydol double crits through Reflect o_o (Vileplume lives). Re-run.
- Shock Wave does 60% to Xatu, CM, EQ does 95% to Kadabra, same 35-40% to Vileplume, charge Solar Beam. Xatu lives a second Shock Wave and kills Vileplume.
- Conclusion: in fact the worst pairing to run, the AI doesn't trigger Sunny Day against Kadabra and Kadabra is bad vs everything.

Vileplume+Whiscash
- Let's see if there's a rhyme to the Sunny Day reason. Nope. Xatu CMs and dies to a crit Ice Beam, EQ Solar yadda yadda. Solrock in, decides to charge a Solar Beam which allows Vileplume to get off a Solar Beam. Reracked to go for no crit and a different strategy. Xatu CMs, Ice Beam does 40%, Sludge Bomb does 50%, no poison (rip). Hyper Potion but this allows Plume to Sleep Powder it. Interestingly Claydol actually went for the Psychic and not the Earthquake, Plume tanked this from 60%.
- Conclusion: doesn't work, Whiscash and Solrock do basically the same thing and can't protect Vileplume long enough, though Plume shows some surprising bulk against Claydol.

Whiscash+Solrock
- Spread attack buddies. Xatu Psychics Solrock for 40%, Ice Beam does 60% to Xatu, Whicash eats Earthquake for 30%, Rock Slide kills Xatu from 40%. Good start. Solrock in because Solarbeam, Whiscash responds by Ice Beam crit OHKOing Claydol. Surf does the 40% to each Rock that you would expect, Rock Slide does the 30% to each you would expect.
- Conclusion: Neither can carry on their own, both are good supporting partners, they perform well in tandem.

Kadabra+Mightyena
- Strategy: Ignore Claydol. Kadabra Reflects, Mightyena Shadow Balls for 65%, -1 Reflected EQ does only 40% to Kadabra!!! Shock Wave finishes +1 Xatu from this range, Hyena chunks Solrock (its taking less than 20% per Earthquake). Kadabra goes down to focus fired EQ+Psychic after a Recover.
- Conclusion: Kadabra bad Mightyena good

Kadabra+Dodrio
- Dodrio Tri Attack Claydol for 40%, Kadabra Shock Wave Xatu for 60%, Kadabra die immediately.
- Conclusion: lol

Dodrio+Whiscash
- Dodrio Tri Attack Xatu for 65%, Surf, CM, EQ. Hyper Potion bird, repeat. Hyper Potion bird, repeat, Claydol dies, Whiscash near dead. Kill bird, Surf for 40% each, Whiscash dead to Psychic. Kadabra in? Shock Wave does 30%ish to Solrock, much less to Lunatone which costs it a kill, Steel Wing does 60% range to both, Dodrio eats a Lunatone Psychic for 60%.
- Conclusion: Dodrio great, Whiscash solid, Kadabra bad

Dodrio+Vileplume
- Dodrio hit bird. Dodrio kill bird. Vileplume charge beam. Vileplume kill weird doll thing. CM and two EQs in exchange. Rest as before.

Mightyena+Solrock
- Confuse Ray (?) onto Solrock, interesting note that Xatu's threat clearly changes when Solrock is on the battlefield, Shadow Ball crits OHKOs Claydol. Rock Slide as usual, 45% to Xatu, 25% to Solrock. Confuse Ray again to Mightyena this time, Shadow Ball does 60% to Solrock, Solrock hits self. Xatu Psychics Solrock, then it dies to Solar Beam from Solrock.

Mightyena+Whiscash
- Shdaow Ball 70% TO Xatu, Surf etc. Mightyena carries the matchup but Surf sets up its KOs nicely.

Solrock+Vileplume
- Solrock does not override threat this time and Xatu CM+Psychics Plume.


Conclusions
Vileplume: Surprisingly good against a Psychic gym. If, unlike me, you run Sunny Day you're guaranteed a kill against Claydol, you're guaranteed two kills if Xatu sets up Sunny Day for you, and you get two kills with three possible anyway with Solar Beam if you pair it with something that can outspeed and 2HKO Xatu. Not too shabby. C performance in a vacuum, B performance relative to the expectation of being a slower Poison type.

Mightyena: Pretty great. Intimidate absolutely neuters Claydol and although it isn't OHKOing anything it's consistently 2HKOing Xatu/Lunatone/Solrock and finishing off KO set ups from allies. Tears through Xatu who is the bigger threat because of Intimidate wrecking Claydol. A+ performance.

Dodrio: Pretty great. Immune to Earthquake. Murders things. 3HKOs Claydol, 2HKOs Xatu (or 1 with Hyper Beam), 2HKOs Solrock and Lunatone. Sets up cleaner KOs for partners or grabs them on its own. Only downside is it can only eat one hit, sometimes two. A performance.

Kadabra: Don't use Kadabra.

Whiscash: Solid. Spams Surf, sometimes Ice Beams Xatu. Really wishes it could outspeed Xatu, but beating out the others is good. As long as it has something to kill the bird it will get off 3, sometimes 4 Surfs, which nets out to 1.5-2 pokemons worth of damage. B performance.

Solrock: Slightly less solid. Resists everything except opposing Solrock Solarbeam, but also can't hit anything very hard. Rock Slide threatens Xatu but it otherwise significantly less useful than Whiscash Surf. Good at taking threat for other partners and for being immune to Earthquake. Meh otherwise. C performance.

 

[sumwun]

Why did you think Dodrio did better than Whiscash? When I read your post, it seemed to me that Dodrio usually hit harder, but Whiscash hit 2 opponents at once and died later, so they ended up doing about the same amount of damage. Did their Pokemon target Whiscash more often or something like that?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Why did you think Dodrio did better than Whiscash? When I read your post, it seemed to me that Dodrio usually hit harder, but Whiscash hit 2 opponents at once and died later, so they ended up doing about the same amount of damage. Did their Pokemon target Whiscash more often or something like that?

I think you've misinterpreted things then. A typical whiscash fight would involve it using surf three times while eating two earthquakes to faint claydol while the other enemy did something with xatu, and then hitting one or both of the rocks with surf and fainting, or fainting sooner to a xatu psychic. A typical Dodrio fight could be it 2hkoing xatu as it tried to CM, 2HKOing solrock as it tried to sunny day, and 2hkoing lunatone as it usually went for psychic, or knocking a chunk off of claydol if it's partner was better at fighting not-claydol. Dodrio only fainted early in one run where it got focus targeted instead of set up, whereas whiscash would consistently faint by virtue of being slower and having to eat multiple earthquakes every time which Dodrio obviously doesn't. Whiscash's damage output was good but dodrios was much more efficient because it was constantly nabbing KOs.

Edit: or perhaps I was misleading since I only posted snippets of later Dodrio runs, I cut them short after the partner died, Whiscash needed more exposure to see how it performed where as Dodrios dominance was very self-evident.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

same idea, running Juan with each. Dodrio, Mightyena, Vileplume each at level 44, Solrock, Kadabra, Whiscash each at level 45

Dodrio
- Round 1. X Attack vs Luvdisc, Sweet Kiss misses, Tri Attack OHKO. Sealeo lives Tri Attack, Aurora Beam for 70%, burn Hyper Potion, kill. Kingdra, OHKO with Hyper Beam. Whiscash, recharge, live Water Pulse with 2 HP, OHKO with Hyper Beam. Crawdaunt finishes off.
- Round 2. Tri Attack OHKOs Luvdisc immediately. Switch out of Sealeo. Switch in for Kingdra. Tri Attack for 40%, Double Team, Tri Attack again, Rest, Tri Attack misses, Ice Beam, misses again, get trolled.
- Round 3. Tri Attack low rolls to miss the kill but Luvdisc misses Sweet Kiss, burns Hyper Potion and kills. Out for Sealeo, in for Kingdra. Tri Attack, Double Team, miss Hyper Beam, Ice Beam, kill with Hyper Beam
- Round 4. Same as 3 up to Kingdra, this time Tri Attack, Double Team, don't miss Hyper Beam, KO. Whiscash in. Recharge, Amnesia, Tri Attack crits and OHKOs (i.e. 2HKO under normal), Tri Attack crits and OHKOs Crawdaunt (also 2HKO under normal)
- Round 5. X Attack, Sweet Kiss, Persim Berry triggered, X attack again, Sweet Kiss lands, Lava Cookie, Water Pulse for 20%, OHKO with Tri Attack. OHKO Sealeo. Crits and OHKOs Kingdra but can be inferred that it will do 80% from previous attacks followed by Double Team and a KO. OHKO Whiscash. OHKO Crawdaunt.

Conclusion: Up to you how you interpret this, I'd say it's probably an A- performance but could be argued as an A or as a B+. Clean sweep with two X Attacks, churns through 4 enemies with 1 X Attack including the Kingdra and with a downtime, with 0 X Attacks it beats Luvdisc/Kingdra/Whiscash/sometimes Crawdaunt if Kingdra doesn't evasion hax it, Luvdisc and Kingdra only if it does evasion hax it. The fact that it's beating Kingdra+ on its own is impressive as is tanking Kingdra Ice Beams, and the sweeping potential is excellent here. Strong results.


Solrock
- Round 1. Luvdisc outspeed and Water Pulses for 33%, Rock Slide hits to red, triggers Hyper Potio, Earthquake and Psychic kill it for accuracy, takes a Sweet Kiss before killing Luvdisc but doesn't hit self. Sealeo, snaps out of confusion, misses Rock Slide, Water Pulse hits for 60%, Rock Slide crit OHKOs (unclear if it would without crit). Kingdra in, die immediately to Ice Beam.
- Round 2. Same set up, purely to test Rock Slide on Sealeo, it did 99% damage but failed to OHKO. Go to try it again and lose twice to Luvdisc confusion hax. Test 2 OHKOs Sealeo, dies immediately to Kingdra Water Pulse. Test 3. Died to Luvdisc. Died to Luvdisc again. Died to Luvdisc again. OHKOed Sealeo.
- Round 3. X Attack for Water Pulse. Water Pulse 2, OHKO Luvdisc. OHKO Sealeo. Die to Kingdra.

Conclusion: Very bad matchup. Keeping in mind I'm higher leveled than most Solrock, can't OHKO Luvdisc, can sometimes OHKO Sealeo at my level probably not a few levels lower, can never get past Kingdra, can't even get past Luvdisc half the time between confusion and Rock Slide misses. Can't X Attack sweep either because again, Kingdra, and can't X Attack/X Speed sweep because Luvdisc will treaten to 3HKO and/or confuse hax you. E performance, at least it's capable of sometimes doing something.


Mightyena
- Round 1. Luvdisc Water Pulses for 15% (lol), Strength does 80ish, Sweet Kiss, no self-hit Strength kill. Whiscash in, Strength for 33%, Amnesia, Strength again, Earthquake for roughly 40%, Strength again low rolls and misses the KO, lives another Earthquake but procs Hyper Potion, gets two more Strengths in but faints.
- Round 2. Water Pulse, Howl, Water Pulse confusion, self-hit, Water Pulse, self-hit, HyPo, Water Pulse, Water Pulse, Howl, Sweet Kiss, Howl, Water Pulse, Howl, Full Restore, Water Pulse, Sweet Kiss, hit self, HyPo, Water Pulse, repeat, finally attack and OHKO with the +4 Strength. Whiscash. Heal check, it EQs twice and then Amnesias leaving me at full. Strength does 95% against a Rain Dance, proces Hyper Potion, second strength OHKOs. Sealeo, Strength crit OHKOs. Crawdaunt, Strength does 99%, Crabhammer does 70%ish in Rain, Strength wins, Kingdra cleans. +4 was a bad choice of boosting number.
- Round 3. Persim Berry attached. tl;dr Howl up to +6 absorbing or avoiding confusion procs, use X Speed, one Hyper Potion to heal to full, OHKO Luvdisc, OHKO Whiscash, OHKO Sealeo, OHKO Crawdaunt, do 90% to Kingdra, Double Team, HyPo, 90% Stregnth, HyPo, 99% Strength, miss Strength, Rest, hit Strength and OHKO (damage range of 90-100%).

Conclusion: Not really sure how to evaluate this. I think D? Does "OK" in a vacuum, getting through Luvdisc and 99% of Whiscash plus burning a Hyper Potion is probably E worthy, but it also has the capacity to sweep with a lot of set up (noting here that I used only one Potion) and that ability I think makes it a reasonably D performance, distinguishing in particular from SOlrock's E performance of never being able to sweep.


Kadabra
- CM, CM, clean sweep. Takes exactly 7 turns, or 8 if you need to heal a confusion. S tier performance. 2 CMs is mandatory, 1 CM means you die to Whiscash.


Vileplume
- Round 1. X Special, Sweet Kiss misses, X Speed, Water Pulse, Petal Dance OHKOs Luvdisc, Sealeo, self-confusion, Persim Berry procs. Kingdra outspeeds and Double Teams, Petal Dance does 50% into Rest, Kingdra trades an Ice Beam for a Petal Dance and KOs with Ice Beam from 50%ish.
- Round 2, no boosting. Water Pulse, Petal Dance, OHKO. Sealeo, Petal Dance for 90%, Aururoa Beam for 40% (lol), Hyper Potion, Petal Dance KO. Kingdra, Persim berry, Ice Beam does 58% trading with Petal Dance for about 40%, Kingdra KOs.
- Round 3, sweeper round. 5 X Specials (2 needed to 2HKO comfortably, 1 makes it a roll), 2 X Speeds, heal confusion, Luvdisc is free set up, cleanly OHKO everything.
- Round 4, avoid Kingdra round. Water Pulse, Petal Dance OHKO Luvdisc, Sealeo, trade Petal Dance for Aurora Beam, KO. Switch out of Kingdra for Dodrio. Dodrio does the Tri Attack+Hyper Beam kill. Switch back in for Whiscash. OHKO with Petal Dance. OHKO Crawdaunt with Petal Dance.

Conclusion: B+ I think. Clean OHKOs on Luvdisc, Crawdaunt, and Whiscash. Eats 40% to KO Sealeo without boosting, clean OHKOs at +1. Kingdra stops it but it's capable of sweeping with boosting, and it can boost effortlessly since Luvdisc can do literally nothing to it. Could argue it to A- or B performance depending on how much weight you give to the 4 easy kills vs Kingdra stopping it.


Whiscash
- Eats Water Pulse for 10%, OHKOs with Earthquake. Opposing Whiscash in, my Earthquake 2HKOs, his Earthqake does roughly 25%. Sealeo in, Earthquake 2HKOs, his Water Pulse does 15ish%. Crawdaunt in, Earthqake 2HKOs, lol Taunt. Kingdra in, Double team, miss, Double Team, hit for ~40% clear 3HKO, Kingdra Ice Beams for 27ish%, Water Pulse the same, EQ procced a Hyper Potion, tl;dr bunch of misses and confuse hax, use a Potion every 4 turns or so, eight million years later I finally hit an Ice Beam for 25%ish to get it into EQ range without proccing HyPo, aaaand it Rests, last EQ PP landsfor a crit KO from 75%.

Conclusion: Has to be an A tier performance. Takes zero damage from anything that can be thrown at it, OHKOs Luvdisc, 2HKOs the enxt three, biggest concern is running out of Earthquake PP (I had used a PP Max on mine). Capable of taking down Kingdra with a little potion support to boost, so long as it doesn't get PP locked, though I'd say this is slightly favorable to Kingdra due to Double Team+Rest. Entirely possible to play for a freeze on Kingdra first though.

tl;dr of performances
- Whiscash: A
- Vileplume: B+
- Kadabra: S
- Solrock: E
- Mightena: D
- Dodrio: A-


and a pre-victory road snapshot of my team/moves/stats (side note, level curves seem to have evened out to reasonable by the end-game)

Hide

Mightyena, lv 44, Lonely
127/103/76/71/60/77
Strength, Shadow Ball, Dig, Howl

Dodrio, lv 44, Adamant
120/125/67/59/63/108
Tri Attack, Fly, Steel Wing, Hyper Beam

Vileplume, lv 44, Gentle
129/81/79/105/106/64
Petal Dance, Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder, Moonlight

Kadabra, lv 45, Naughty
106/49/36/126/72/110
Psychic, Shock Wave, Calm Mind, Recover

Whiscash, lv 46, Naughty
176/100/88/90/80/79
Surf, Earthquake, Ice Beam, Waterfall

Solrock, lv 45, Hardy
120/106/93/69/72/76
Rock Slide, Earthquake, Psychic, Overheat

 

[sumwun]

I think you've misinterpreted things then. A typical whiscash fight would involve it using surf three times while eating two earthquakes to faint claydol while the other enemy did something with xatu, and then hitting one or both of the rocks with surf and fainting, or fainting sooner to a xatu psychic. A typical Dodrio fight could be it 2hkoing xatu as it tried to CM, 2HKOing solrock as it tried to sunny day, and 2hkoing lunatone as it usually went for psychic, or knocking a chunk off of claydol if it's partner was better at fighting not-claydol. Dodrio only fainted early in one run where it got focus targeted instead of set up, whereas whiscash would consistently faint by virtue of being slower and having to eat multiple earthquakes every time which Dodrio obviously doesn't. Whiscash's damage output was good but dodrios was much more efficient because it was constantly nabbing KOs.

Edit: or perhaps I was misleading since I only posted snippets of later Dodrio runs, I cut them short after the partner died, Whiscash needed more exposure to see how it performed where as Dodrios dominance was very self-evident.

So Tate and Liza were often attacking Whiscash, and they were mostly using setup moves when you were using Dodrio, probably because Dodrio is immune to earthquake. Is this what you're saying? Do you have any idea why Xatu would use psychic on Whiscash but use calm mind on Dodrio? Because Whiscash seems to take so much damage from Xatu or Claydol, do you think maybe Whiscash would do better if you sent it in after taking out one of Xatu or Claydol, instead of leading with it?

 

[Punchshroom]

Vileplume's matchup against Juan would be a lot smoother if you'd given it SunnyBeam like I had suggested earlier. I recall using Bellossom against Juan and all I had to do was equip Bellossom with persim berry just for luvdisc bs insurance, give it an X Special Attack to 2HKO Kingdra, and clean swept Juan as the only real resistance he could muster was an Ice Beam which only did half.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

So Tate and Liza were often attacking Whiscash, and they were mostly using setup moves when you were using Dodrio, probably because Dodrio is immune to earthquake. Is this what you're saying? Do you have any idea why Xatu would use psychic on Whiscash but use calm mind on Dodrio? Because Whiscash seems to take so much damage from Xatu or Claydol, do you think maybe Whiscash would do better if you sent it in after taking out one of Xatu or Claydol, instead of leading with it?

It's less that Tate and Liza we're often attacking Whiscash and more that it was often getting hit by Earthquake incidentally. Psychic would have been stronger in a vacuum without the spread penalty impacting it but the AI prefers the spread move.


Yes, this is evidenced by the Kadabra+Vileplume run where Kadabra died t1 after KOing Xatu. In general Claydol preferred Earthquake with a rare Psychic, Lunatone preferred Psychic with an occasional Call Mind, Xatu preferred Calm Mind with an occasional Psychic and a rare Sunny Day or Confuse Ray, and Solrock preferred Sunday Day with an occasional charge up Solar Beam. The Emerald AI as a whole tends to pick the best move in a situation only about 60% of the time anyway.

Vileplume's matchup against Juan would be a lot smoother if you'd given it SunnyBeam like I had suggested earlier. I recall using Bellossom against Juan and all I had to do was equip Bellossom with persim berry just for luvdisc bs insurance, give it an X Special Attack to 2HKO Kingdra, and clean swept Juan as the only real resistance he could muster was an Ice Beam which only did half.

I completely agree, my preference in this run was to go for the bulky attacker set up instead of the Sunny beamer but Sunny beam is completely viable and reinforces that Plume has a good matchup here. That said, it won't materially change the matchups vs Sealeo, Whiscash, or Crawdaunt, the important part will be outspending Luvdisc after Sun and outpacing Kingdra to Sleep Powder it. Your strategy looks like it lines up very well with my results as a comparable too though, Ice Beam also did less than half to Plume, so a similar set up would have seen similar results as far as I can see

 

[sumwun]

It's less that Tate and Liza we're often attacking Whiscash and more that it was often getting hit by Earthquake incidentally. Psychic would have been stronger in a vacuum without the spread penalty impacting it but the AI prefers the spread move.


Yes, this is evidenced by the Kadabra+Vileplume run where Kadabra died t1 after KOing Xatu. In general Claydol preferred Earthquake with a rare Psychic, Lunatone preferred Psychic with an occasional Call Mind, Xatu preferred Calm Mind with an occasional Psychic and a rare Sunny Day or Confuse Ray, and Solrock preferred Sunday Day with an occasional charge up Solar Beam. The Emerald AI as a whole tends to pick the best move in a situation only about 60% of the time anyway.

Do you think Whiscash would do better if you sent it in after having something else knock out Claydol?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Do you think Whiscash would do better if you sent it in after having something else knock out Claydol?

It's fairly evident that Whiscash performs best against Solrock and Lunatone so that answers your questions.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

It's fairly evident that Whiscash performs best against Solrock and Lunatone so that answers your questions.

Actually that comes with the caveat that it needs help to take on Solrock because otherwise it will Sunny beam you, Lunatone and Claydol are the best matchups for Whiscash so the best spot for it is after killing Xatu and Lunatone out to replace.