Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

Hello, new person here. I believe I understand the system though so don't mind me too much. I was wondering if there has been serious discussion/testing done on Horsea (Trade) yet. I fully understand all the problems it has, but just on paper to me it would seem like its performance should at least be on par with Regice (who is currently E tier). Surf and Ice Beam is decent coverage for it, its available sooner than Regice (so you can use it in time for Tate and Liza), and with a good defensive typing on paper to me it would seem like it should do well against some important late game figures, notably it quad resists both Wallace and Juans stabs.
 
Hello, new person here. I believe I understand the system though so don't mind me too much. I was wondering if there has been serious discussion/testing done on Horsea (Trade) yet. I fully understand all the problems it has, but just on paper to me it would seem like its performance should at least be on par with Regice (who is currently E tier). Surf and Ice Beam is decent coverage for it, its available sooner than Regice (so you can use it in time for Tate and Liza), and with a good defensive typing on paper to me it would seem like it should do well against some important late game figures, notably it quad resists both Wallace and Juans stabs.
I think the main problem with Kingdra is that it needs a dragon scale to evolve, The easiest way to get one in RSE is to fish Horseas. Even then, Horsea has a 15% encounter chance and a 5% chance of holding a dragon scale, so you have to fish an average of 133 Pokemon to get one dragon scale. (89 Pokemon if you're playing Emerald and have compound eyes) In that time, you can probably beat the game with a Seadra.
 

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
I can do this. Anything else I should use?
Barboach and Vileplume maybe? Barboach less so, though another Vileplume perspective would be nice. Bellossom would be fine too.

The Pokemon specifically set as non-reservable for writeups currently are Marill, Girafarig, Barboach, Seviper, Shedinja, and Psyduck, so if you want to take a look at any of those that'd also be welcome.

Hello, new person here. I believe I understand the system though so don't mind me too much. I was wondering if there has been serious discussion/testing done on Horsea (Trade) yet. I fully understand all the problems it has, but just on paper to me it would seem like its performance should at least be on par with Regice (who is currently E tier). Surf and Ice Beam is decent coverage for it, its available sooner than Regice (so you can use it in time for Tate and Liza), and with a good defensive typing on paper to me it would seem like it should do well against some important late game figures, notably it quad resists both Wallace and Juans stabs.
It's a long, long sidetrack for Horsea in the first place to have it for Tate&Liza (since doing that sidetrack before Dive access means you have to do it again to make Sootopolis Flyable), but the Dragon Scale's rarity is a massive thing holding it back - if Horsea wasn't a fishing encounter making the grind for a Dragon Scale less horrific then maybe I could see it in E, but as is I'd say a hard no.

In addition, it's also very unpleasant to bring up to par enough to take on Tate&Liza (it comes at 30), since it needs to take a couple levels as Horsea to get to Seadra and its coverage is very literally Ice Beam and Surf, which don't exactly fare well against the ocean or particularly noteworthy against any of the major battles remaining bar Drake and Steven (and Tate&Liza if you spend the time to level grind). Defensive typing aside, it's not going to actually take on Juan or Wallace well because everything it does is resisted or very weak neutral. Regice, while a pain to get that comes fairly late, has excellent coverage and bulk that set it up to take on basically the remainder of the game quite well.
 
I can do this. Anything else I should use?
I'd appreciate approaching it a similar way to how I did it, Rare Candy to evolve immediately and Psychic/Fly/SunnyBeam as pre-CM immediately available TM options (thought perhaps not SunnyBeam if you intend that for Vileplume)

Also maybe Bellossom would be good, i don't intend to backtrack my run to try it
 
I'd appreciate approaching it a similar way to how I did it, Rare Candy to evolve immediately and Psychic/Fly/SunnyBeam as pre-CM immediately available TM options (thought perhaps not SunnyBeam if you intend that for Vileplume)

Also maybe Bellossom would be good, i don't intend to backtrack my run to try it
Also other options I'd be interested in seeing are combat oriented Linoone and Skarmory


Linoone / Golduck / Skarmory / Xatu / Bellossom / x is a fairly balanced lineup
 
Ah I forgot there weren't any finite methods for obtaining the Dragon Scale in Emerald. Yes that does make Kingdra significantly more of a hassle. Though I do think backtracking for the Horsea isn't that bad, you can just fly to Slateport and swim to the right a bit to get to 134 so you can fish it up. Still out of the way though.
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Linoone / Marill / Skarmory / Xatu / Bellossom / Seviper sounds like a reasonable enough (lol) lineup. I'll work on this and note the results. Going to do Marill instead of Psyduck so Linoone has some early game backup and we don't have to fight over the Calm Mind TM. I'll figure out how to divide the grass moves between Bellossom and Xatu (might be a lot of savestating and (re)using the Solarbeam TM between major fights...).
 
Hello, all of you RSE fans. Great to see you here. Personally these are the games I have the least experience with (not the remakes though), but I thought I could still do my part to help by placing my opinions on some of the many Pokémon available in this game. I plan on posting a more in depth comment later on my suggestions for tier shifts, but for now, I want to take the time and effort to talk about the undisputed king of the Generation 3 Hoenn games. I've convinced myself that the Pokémon in mind has earned the right to something that personally, I've never seen on any official in-game tier list: Its own Tier above S Tier. And the Pokémon I think deserves its own Tier (not sure about a name yet, probably SS)...it's Mudkip.

RSE Mudkip, as all of you probably know, is easily one of the best Pokémon in the game, if not THE best overall for many reasons. It's available extremely early (a Starter Pokémon no less), it has great base stats, an AMAZING typing, fantastic matchups, it is great in Double Battles with common moves like Surf, Earthquake, and Blizzard, it outclasses many of even the other top tiers, and the list goes on and on and on. It's also the #1 most used Pokémon in any RSE speedrun, which is a hard enough position for any Pokémon to earn in any game. And just to make it even better, it can learn all of the Water based HMs you'll need in these games and even be able to use them effectively in battle for a change. Any disadvantages it might have throughout the entire game are all made up for in one way or another, too. Grass-Types in the way? Just use an Ice-Type TM. Can't hit hard off of one stat? Hit hard off of the other after taking a hit or two thanks to its surprisingly great natural bulk. See what I mean? Oh, that's assuming Mudkip is your only Pokémon too. Other team members can help if need be.

Just admit it. RSE Mudkip is along the lines of, for example, Fox in Smash Bros. Melee, or Meta Knight in Smash Bros. Brawl; something that easily deserves it's recogniton for its sheer dominance in every important area and has earned enough respect to where I think Mudkip could go beyond the reach of S Tier.

Mudkip for a brand new "SS Tier". Who's with me?
 
As I understand it SpeedRunning has no barring on these tiers as they are designed for typical playthroughs. Also I think personally an SS tier is overall unnecessary.
All that aside I was actually thinking of replaying through the Gen 3 core series anyways and figured I might as well help with this list where I can, so i was wondering if there was anything you guys still needed/wanted testing on. I can do either Ruby or Emerald.
 
I know solo runs aren't used for ingame tiers, but I'd like to share some thoughts about Breloom after my recent Sapphire playthrough. Solo runs can show Pokemon in a best-case scenario, and if they can't do a particular thing with those parameters, they certainly won't be able to in a lower level team playthrough. Breloom should be treated like a weird Fighting type pretending to be a Grass Pokemon when fully evolved. Its main attacks are Headbutt, Return, Mach Punch, Sky Uppercut, and Brick Break. If you can't one-shot something with those, Bulk Up first.


TOADETTE the Breloom's Mega Drains and Giga Drains were pathetic even with the solo level advantage. Giga Drain dealt maybe 1/2 of Steven's Claydol's max HP or so, and random Water and Ground types late in the game sometimes barely survived Mega Drains. Don't waste your Giga Drain TM on a Pokemon with base 60 Special Attack.
 

Merritt

literally the textbook definition of a tsundere
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Hello, all of you RSE fans. Great to see you here. Personally these are the games I have the least experience with (not the remakes though), but I thought I could still do my part to help by placing my opinions on some of the many Pokémon available in this game. I plan on posting a more in depth comment later on my suggestions for tier shifts, but for now, I want to take the time and effort to talk about the undisputed king of the Generation 3 Hoenn games. I've convinced myself that the Pokémon in mind has earned the right to something that personally, I've never seen on any official in-game tier list: Its own Tier above S Tier. And the Pokémon I think deserves its own Tier (not sure about a name yet, probably SS)...it's Mudkip.

RSE Mudkip, as all of you probably know, is easily one of the best Pokémon in the game, if not THE best overall for many reasons. It's available extremely early (a Starter Pokémon no less), it has great base stats, an AMAZING typing, fantastic matchups, it is great in Double Battles with common moves like Surf, Earthquake, and Blizzard, it outclasses many of even the other top tiers, and the list goes on and on and on. It's also the #1 most used Pokémon in any RSE speedrun, which is a hard enough position for any Pokémon to earn in any game. And just to make it even better, it can learn all of the Water based HMs you'll need in these games and even be able to use them effectively in battle for a change. Any disadvantages it might have throughout the entire game are all made up for in one way or another, too. Grass-Types in the way? Just use an Ice-Type TM. Can't hit hard off of one stat? Hit hard off of the other after taking a hit or two thanks to its surprisingly great natural bulk. See what I mean? Oh, that's assuming Mudkip is your only Pokémon too. Other team members can help if need be.

Just admit it. RSE Mudkip is along the lines of, for example, Fox in Smash Bros. Melee, or Meta Knight in Smash Bros. Brawl; something that easily deserves it's recogniton for its sheer dominance in every important area and has earned enough respect to where I think Mudkip could go beyond the reach of S Tier.

Mudkip for a brand new "SS Tier". Who's with me?
Mudkip is not only the best Pokemon overall in RSE, but I'd say the best ingame Pokemon period considering the context of their game. It has essentially no real disadvantageous major battles and easily carries teams through the game. I will not only never dispute this but I will heavily endorse Mudkip to anybody who doubts it.

However, I do not believe that S rank should be split.

S rank represents the most efficient Pokemon in RSE. The Pokemon who carry a team through the game with minimal effort. Pokemon who have nearly no flaws, certainly no debilitating ones, and the small issues that they may have are easily made up for by their immense positives. There is not a higher plane to go to beyond S rank unless we're talking about trading in obedient level 100s (which we aren't).

Mudkip is the best S rank. However, Alakazam and Torchic are also worthy of S rank. When we talk about a group as small as the S ranks, we don't really need to start splitting it - it should be eminently clear that these limited Pokemon are the best of the best and allow you to clear the game most efficiently.

In addition, we also should not be splitting hairs in any rank, let alone S. We don't need to try and put Pokemon in an order within the ranks, nor do we need to create subranks (which is what SS rank would be). If there is an issue with Mudkip sharing a rank with Torchic and Alakazam then the other two should move down, not move Mudkip up, but like I said both Torchic and Alakazam manage to fulfill the criteria for an S rank Pokemon as well.

In fewer words, there will not be an SS or S+ or S2 rank specifically for Mudkip.

As I understand it SpeedRunning has no barring on these tiers as they are designed for typical playthroughs. Also I think personally an SS tier is overall unnecessary.
All that aside I was actually thinking of replaying through the Gen 3 core series anyways and figured I might as well help with this list where I can, so i was wondering if there was anything you guys still needed/wanted testing on. I can do either Ruby or Emerald.
Like I said to Fireburn, the Pokemon specifically set as non-reservable for writeups currently are Marill, Girafarig, Barboach, Seviper, Shedinja, and Psyduck, so if you want to take a look at any of those that'd be welcomed.
 
Does that just mean you want me to playthrough the game and share how it goes with one of said pokes? Because I can do that I just want to make sure I clearly understand what you mean. If that is all you want than I can definitely playthrough with at least one of them (Probably Shedinja), maybe two. Not really sure what else I'd use on a team though so any suggestions would be appreciated.
 
Okay, I just did the Spoink writeup because nobody else seemed to want it.

Spoink
Availability:
Jagged Pass, early-mid, 20%, levels 18 to 20 (R) 20 to 22 (SE)
Stats: Spoink is only strong enough to defeat a few regular trainers. Grumpig's high special stats and fast leveling rate make it a good tank in many major battles, as long as you watch out for physical attacks. Grumpig usually has enough Speed to sweep regular trainers.
Typing: Psychic is not a great type. Opponents that resist Psychic or know Shadow Ball are more common than those that are weak to Psychic.
Movepool: Spoink comes knowing Psybeam and can immediately learn Shock Wave. Grumpig learns no stronger coverage moves, so it has trouble with Psychic-resistant opponents. Spoink learns Psychic at level 34, and Grumpig learns it at level 37, so you might want to delay evolution for this. Grumpig can learn Calm Mind, which lets it set up on a weak opponent and sweep its teammates.
Major battles: The unevolved Spoink can 1v1 some of Flannery's team and is mostly deadweight against Norman. Once evolved, Grumpig can sweep Winona with Psychic and Shock Wave. It is not helpful against Tate and Liza unless you teach it the otherwise useless Shadow Ball. Calm Mind lets it sweep the last gym and Glacia (except Explosion Glalie), but Grumpig's type makes it worse against Sidney, Phoebe, and Steven (RS). Grumpig can 1v1 several of Drake's and Wallace (E)'s Pokemon.
Additional comments: Thick Fat is the slightly better ability because it makes Glacia much easier.
Does that just mean you want me to playthrough the game and share how it goes with one of said pokes? Because I can do that I just want to make sure I clearly understand what you mean. If that is all you want than I can definitely playthrough with at least one of them (Probably Shedinja), maybe two. Not really sure what else I'd use on a team though so any suggestions would be appreciated.
Some people documented and posted plays in the past, so you can read some of their posts to get a better idea of what people might want you to do. (please tell me if I forgot any notable posts)
WaterBomb: Torchic, Ralts, Electrike, Oddish, Staryu
Fireburn: Torchic, Lotad, Geodude, Nincada, Swablu, Voltorb
Merritt: Psyduck, Machop, Spoink
me: Electrike, Numel, Spoink, Carvanha, Heracross
Fireburn: Spoink, Makuhita, Aggron, Plusle, Tropius, Feebas
Texas Cloverleaf: Shroomish, Wurmple, Baltoy, Swablu, Absol, Chinchou
Bobbery: Torchic, Shroomish, Solrock, Electrike, Spheal

Bobbery: Mudkip, Seedot, Gulpin, Zangoose, Vulpix
Fireburn: Mudkip, Wurmple, Torkoal, Shroomish, Shuppet
Punchshroom: Treecko, Gulpin, Torkoal, Staryu
Texas Cloverleaf: Grimer, Rhyhorn, Goldeen, Natu, Shuppet
(putting this together involved a lot of scrolling)
 
Last edited:
Thank you for the clarification, that is what I thought I was meant to do. (And an extra thanks for doing the scrolling). Now I'll try and think of a team myself, though I'd still appreciate any suggestions as I'm terrible at thinking of teams to use.
 
Dodrio was level 48 by the end of victory road so I grinded the just of the team the 1-3 levels needed to match it, we'll start the e4 from there.

Won't be doing exactly the same thing as the past two gyms but I will do a few runs of each e4 to get a few different perspectives of how things perform in each scenario, probably do a run focusing on each mon and then one straightforward fight for optimal play.



Sidney

Vileplume: 2HKOs Mightyena, 2HKOs Shiftty, 2HKOs Absol, OHKOs Crawdaunt, OHKOs Cacturne, BUT is very vulnerable to bullshit. Sand-Attack, Double Team, Swagger, Torment, Extrasensory from the first two enemies it will face make it really fucking obnoxious to try and get anything going and Absol can threaten with Aerial Ace when it comes in third. Good individual matchups but it's a hit and run matchup for Vileplume. Grade: B.

Kadabra: Doesn't 2HKO Mightyena with Shock Wave on its own but mine did live its Double-Edge, barely, and Shock Wave was a 2HKO with recoil factored. Shiftry and Cacturne are non-starters. Shock Wave is also too weak to OHKO Crawdaunt but Kadabra wins this if it doesn't Facade immediately. Grade: F

Edit: downgrading this to an F, it's not appreciably better than Solrock

Whiscash: Surf 2HKOs Mightyena, Double-Edge is negligible. Ice Beam 2HKOs Shiftry, Extrasensory is negligible but it does outspeed so Double Team/Swagger are threats. Ice Beam 2HKOs Cacturne and surprisingly lives Needle Arm so this is a win unless it uses Cotton Spore and then flinches you :/ Surf and Earthquake 2HKO Absol but not through Sitrus, Slash is negliible damage even after a Swords Dance. Crawdaunt is the only issue, Earthquake just misses the 2HKO and its +2 Facade hurts. Not too concerned with the rest of Sidney though. Grade: A

Solrock: Rock Slide 3HKOs Mightyena after Intimidate, Overheat (Charcoal) does like 60ish. Overheat fails to OHKO Cacturne and the same issue happens as Whiscash where Cottom Spore+Needle Arm flinch is a threat. You wall Shiftry which is lol but you get Swagger/Double Team/Torment trolls because you don't 2HKO with Rock Slide, though Rock Slide+Overheat will get the KO. You don't 2HKO Crawdant and it OHKOs you with Surf. Rock Slide 3HKOs bt you underspeed and Absol wins via Swords Dance and two Rock Slides. Grade: F - terrible all around.

Dodrio: Don't 2HKO Mightyena after Intimidate but Tri Attack+Hyper Beam will. Tri Attack 2HKOs Absol, Rock Slide 2HKOs in return but you outspeed. Fly OHKOs Cacturne and Shiftry. Tri Attack needs rolls to 2HKO Crawdaunt but Tri Attack+Hyper Beam is easy. Grade: A

Mightyena: You win the Mightyena 1v1 pretty comfortably unless you get accuracy haxed. Strength 3HKOs Cacturne, Needle Arm 3HKOs in return, ou win this unless you get flinched by Needle Arm after the Cotton Spore. You 3HKO and wall Shiftry so this comes down to Swagger rolling. Strength 3HKOs Absol and you live a +1 crit Rock Slide so that's fun, pretty even matchup. Crawdaunt outdamages you on all counts. Grade: D probably.

Proper run: Whiscash leads, Surf, Sand-Attack, Surf for kill. Cacturne met with Dodrio, Fly for kill. Absol met with Solrock, trade Rock Slides and lose to a flinch, Dodrio cleans up. Shiftry in met by Vileplume, Swagger, Persim Berry, Sludge Bomb OHKO, Crawdaunt in, Petal Dance OHKO.


Take away: I'm almost always running something that can OHKO Crawdaunt with a special Grass or Electric attack, turns out its actually very threatening if you don't have that!
 
Last edited:

Fireburn

BARN ALL
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I completed my run of Emerald with Linoone / Marill / Skarmory / Xatu / Bellossom / Seviper. I finished the game with Bellossom at 49 (it carried a lot of lategame) and the others at 46-47. My Pokemon had largely average stats save Bellossom which was somewhat blessed (Mild nature, 31 SpA IV).

I'm largely going to ignore the Rival as they are not difficult past Rival 2. I picked Mudkip as my starter because Grovyle is the easiest Pokemon of the starters to defeat.

Roxanne
Team: Zigzagoon, Marill

Zigzagoon is useless here.

Marill can take out the Geodudes with Water Gun. To defeat Nosepass, Marill will need to use Defense Curl a few times and then Water Gun until it dies, chugging some Potions as needed. You can use the X Special near Rusturf Tunnel to make this go faster.

Brawly
Team: Zigzagoon, Azumarill (evolved on the Gym Trainers)

Zigzagoon can handle Meditite but is otherwise useless.

Azumarill wins by using Defense Curl on Machop and then using Rollout. 3 hits killed Machop, the 4th hit kills Meditite, and the 5th hit kills Makuhita.

Rival 2
Team: Linoone, Azumarill, Gloom

Linoone just spams Headbutt. Combusken or Marshtomp may give it issues.

Gloom doesn't like Slugma or Combusken but otherwise wins without much of a problem.

Azumarill just uses Rollout. I'm not sure if this works against Marshtomp, but it steamrolls Grovyle.

Wattson
Team: Linoone, Azumarill, Gloom

Linoone struggles to handle Magneton but does alright against the others with Mud Sport helping it tank hits. It can in theory beat Magneton with Swagger (Slateport tutor) + Rock Smash but I never got lucky enough for this to pan out.

Azumarill is bad here, STAB Shock Wave does too much damage to get Rollout going. It is walled by Magneton and outsped by everything.

Gloom hates Magneton but it handles the others fine with Bullet Seed and powders. You might want an X Special to do more damage.

(Wattson is actually pretty hard without a Ground-type or Combusken/Hariyama, who knew)

Maxie 1
Team: Linoone, Azumarill, Gloom, Seviper, Skarmory

Linoone can sweep if Intimidate is removed, it takes out Mightyena 1v1, beats Zubat easily, and can Dig through Camerupt if it decides not to Magnitude.

Azumarill Bubblebeams Camerupt and takes out the rest with Strength. May need a Super Potion or two.

Gloom is not great here but it can beat Mightyena at least. Seviper is similar, though it is less bad against Zubat.

Skarmory does not like Ember from Camerupt but handles everything else with little issues.

Flannery
Team: Linoone, Azumarill, Gloom, Seviper, Skarmory

Skarmory is useless here.

Gloom is also useless here, but it can maybe take out Slugma or Numel with Sleep Powder luck.

Seviper can handle Slugma but loses to everything else.

Linoone can take out Slugma and Numel with Return and do a solid chunk to Camerupt before Overheat murders it.

Azumarill solos with the Defense Curl + Rollout combo.

Norman
Team: Linoone, Azumarill, Gloom, Seviper, Skarmory

Linoone can solo this fight if played correctly. Give it a Persim Berry and use an X Attack on turn 1. The berry is to absorb Spinda's Teeter Dance. +1 Return should 2HKO everything but Slaking. Against Slaking you want to Dig into Return range (which should be outside Hyper Potion range) and then Return to KO. Dig allows you to dodge Slaking's attacks so you don't get bodied by Facade or Counter.

Azumarill can potentially win this fight with Defense Curl + Rollout. You will want to hold a Persim Berry for Teeter Dance and you may need an X Attack to KO Slaking. If Slaking survives a hit you have a good chance of getting iced by Counter.

Do not use Gloom here. It does little damage and attempts to status with powders are punished by Facade.

Seviper is too slow and frail to do much aside from getting a stray hit on Vigoroth.

Skarmory solos this fight with ease as long as you give it the Toxic TM so it can kill Slaking without triggering Counter. It handles everything else by being Skarmory.

Winona
Team: Linoone, Azumarill, Gloom, Seviper, Skarmory, Xatu

Linoone easily soloes with Thunderbolt and Ice Beam.

Azumarill soloes with Defense Curl + Rollout.

Gloom sucks here.

Seviper can actually almost solo this fight, but Altaria does beat it with Earthquake. It handles everything else though.

Skarmory soloes this fight by being Skarmory. I don't recommend fighting her Skarm with your Skarm though, unless you have Rock Smash to debuff her Defense.

Xatu almost solos this fight. It can beat Skarmory (3HKO with Night Shade) but isn't strong enough to beat Altaria with Psychic before Altaria beats it.

Maxie 2 (Magma Hideout)
Team: Linoone, Azumarill, Gloom, Seviper, Skarmory, Xatu

Linoone does decent damage and can potentially solo if you are able to absorb a Swagger with a Persim Berry, but it has issues against confusion otherwise and Camerupt's Earthquake wrecks it.

Azumarill can get trolled by Confusion but otherwise does fine, may need a potion.

Gloom is bad here.

Seviper gets trolled by confusion, can have some issues killing Crobat, and gets bodied by Camerupt.

The only threat to Skarmory here is confusion due to Camerupt having no Fire attacks.

Xatu handles Crobat and can chunk Camerupt for good damage before Rock Slide claims it.

Tate and Liza:
Team: Linoone, Azumarill, Bellossom, Seviper, Skarmory, Xatu (now complete)

There are many combinations here so I will just go over individual performances.

Linoone: It outspeeds and 2HKOes Xatu with Shadow Ball. Does good damage to everything else with SBall, but can't take more than one hit.

Azumarill is actually bad here. It's slow and does little damage with its weak Surfs, and STAB Psychics will quickly ruin its day since when its on the team it has a tendency to get ganged up on.

Bellossom sets up Sunny Day and OHKOes everything but Xatu with Solar Beam. As long as you have a partner to handle Xatu, it wins easily. Linoone + Bellossom ended up being the ideal pair for my team to handle this fight.

Seviper is outsped and OHKOed by everything. It is good as a distraction but nothing else.

Skarmory can't handle Solrock's Flamethrower, but takes everything else and does good damage to the rocks.

Xatu takes the hits well, but Giga Drain is pretty weak here. I can definitely see it doing better with Sunnybeam, but Bellossom needed it more. Giving it Shadow Ball might help too.

Maxie 3 (Space Center):
If its good in Maxie 2, its good here too. Bellossom still hates the bats but otherwise does way better here thanks to Solarbeam being a far better move than Bullet Seed.

Archie:
Maxie 2 MUs largely apply here.

Juan:
(not listing the team anymore because it is final)

Linoone can eat an X Attack and then KO Luvdisc with Return. You probably won't sweep without additional setup, but you can probably take out another mon or two before going down.

Azumarill can kill things with Return/Brick Break and some potions. It can struggle against Whiscash (Earthquake hurts) and Kingdra probably beats it with Double Team and Rest.

Bellossom solos easily with Sunnybeam. Solarbeam is a clean 2HKO on Kingdra.

Seviper can take out Luvdisc and maybe Sealeo. Bad vs the others.

Skarmory doesn't like the Water moves but can set up Spikes to make killing Kingdra easier.

Xatu solos by setting up CM on Luvdisc. Giga Drain kills Crawdaunt and Psychic handles everything else.

E4 Movesets:
bellossom: magical leaf/solarbeam/sunny day/sleep powder
seviper: sludge bomb/crunch/flamethrower/glare
xatu: psychic/fly/giga drain/calm mind
linoone: return/shadow ball/ice beam/thunderbolt
azumarill: return/surf/rollout/brick break (bb replaced by blizzard for drake)
skarmory: steel wing/fly/toxic/spikes

Sidney:

Linoone struggles to do much here without a lot setup. It can probably take out one mon, but no more than that.

Azumarill loses to Cacturne (it outspeeds and Needle Arms you) but otherwise handles this fight fine with Brick Break and some potions.

Bellossom does not like dealing with Shiftry's Double Team + Swagger shenanigans, but can otherwise solo this fight with the raw power of Sunnybeam against his relatively frail team.

Seviper can handle Cacturne and possibly Mightyena. Shiftry beats it with Extrasensory and everything else beats it in a straight fight.

Skarmory doesn't like Crawdaunt's Surf, but it handles everything else with ease.

Xatu is bad here for hopefully obvious reasons.

Phoebe:

Linoone can take out the Banettes and beat Dusclops 1 with an X Attack. Curse and Sableye's Double Team makes soloing with Linoone impractical.

Azumarill sucks in this fight due to having to rely on weak Surfs for damage.

Bellossom can solo this fight with 1 X Special (to 2HKO the Level 51 Dusclops). Sleep Powder helps setup, as long as Dusclops 1 does not Curse you Bellossom should win handily.

Seviper can actually solo this fight if some specific circumstances are met; namely, it needs 2 X Specials to 2HKO Dusclops 2 with Crunch (it takes Earthquake at full HP) and it needs a +Speed nature to outrun the Banettes. Seviper also needs to not get Cursed by Dusclops 1 while setting up. If Seviper is outsped by the Banettes, it loses because it can't take enough hits to sweep.

Skarmory has a hard time doing much here, it can get trolled by Curse/Wisp and one of the Banettes has Thunderbolt. It can set up Spikes on Dusclops 1 to help its teammates out though.

Xatu has no safe setup and is walled by Sableye.

Glacia:

Linoone can probably handle one of the Sealeos. It takes too much damage from the Glalies and the Walrein to beat them.

Azumarill can mostly handle this fight with Brick Break and some potions. You may want an X Attack to guarantee 2HKOes, otherwise you'll have to go for some damage rolls. There are two threats to Azumarill here: the L52 Glalie OHKOes with Explosion and is faster, and Walrein might ice Azumarill with Sheer Cold before it can take it down.

Bellossom can solo this fight in Emerald - it puts the L50 Sealeo to sleep with Sleep Powder, eats an X Special, sets up Sunny Day, and then sweeps with Solarbeam. You need Sealeo to sleep 3 turns to pull this off, because you will run out of sun on the second Glalie and you need to be at full HP to take an Ice Beam from it to put the sun back up. The X Special is needed to secure the OHKO on Walrein with Solarbeam. +1 Solarbeam is a damage range to OHKO the Glalies. This is kind of risky and relies on getting enough Sleep turns but it can work. Vileplume is probably more reliable at this due to its better SpA. Probably not workable in RS because she leads Glalie, but if you can force in one of the Sealeos you can try to pull off a midbattle setup.

Seviper chips something with Sludge Bomb or Flamethrower and then dies.

Skarmory takes too much damage from Ice Beam to do much other than lay Spikes.

Xatu can actually set up on the L50 Sealeo because it likes to use Body Slam instead of Ice Ball against it. You need all 6 boosts to KO Walrein though, but it can be done. Everything else kills it.

Drake:

I could not solo Drake with any member of my team so I will just discuss how the battle went and then make some additional notes. Before this fight I dropped Brick Break on Azumarill for Blizzard so it could contribute.

Skarmory leads vs Shelgon. Skarmory beats Shelgon 1v1 with Steel Wing and Toxic. Flygon comes out, switch to Azumarill on Flamethrower. Azumarill takes an Earthquake and Blizzards Flygon for about 70% damage. Switch to Xatu on EQ, Xatu takes a Crunch finishes off Flygon. Salamence comes out and takes out Xatu with Rock Slide. Seviper comes in, takes a Dragon Claw from Salamence (barely) and paralyzes it with Glare. Sevipers chips about 25% HP away with Sludge Bomb before it dies. Linoone comes in and 2HKOes with Ice Beam through Sitrus, barely living a Dragon Claw. Altaria comes out, takes an Ice Beam from Linoone for about half before Linoone dies. Skarmory comes back in and finishes off Altaria. Kingdra KOes Skarmory. Bellossom comes out and defeats Kingdra by putting it to sleep, then setting up Sunny Day and 2HKOing with Solarbeam. GG.

Notes: Skarmory does better in RS because the Kingdra is replaced by a Fireless Flygon. Xatu has no safe setup targets. This was probably the one time Seviper was useful in the entire E4.

Wallace:

Similar boat to Drake:

Bellossom leads vs Wailord. Wailord uses Rain Dance which is immediately countered by Bellossom using Sunny Day. Bellossom OHKOes Wailord with Solarbeam. Milotic (somewhat bafflingly) comes out before Tentacruel. Milotic is put to sleep and 2HKOed by Solarbeam through Sitrus. Tentacruel comes out as sun expires. Seviper is sacrificed, Azumarill comes out. Azumarill takes Tentacruel to red with Return before succumbing to Toxic and Sludge Bomb. Xatu comes out and Calm Minds on the Full Restore turn. Xatu 2HKOes Tentacruel with +1 Psychic and takes a Sludge Bomb. Ludicolo comes out and is chipped with Psychic once for about 33% before Xatu goes down to Surf. Linoone comes out and finishes off Ludicolo with two Returns, taking a Surf in the process. Whiscash comes out, Bellossom comes in and eats up an Earthquake, taking a second as it uses Sunny Day. Bellossom OHKOes Whiscash with Solarbeam. Gyarados comes out, it takes about half from Solarbeam and kills Bellossom with Hyper Beam. Linoone comes in and finishes off Gyarados with Thunderbolt. GG.

Notes: Xatu's only safe setup target is Whiscash. Gyarados was able to take +6 Psychic from it and OHKOed Xatu with Hyper Beam, so Xatu setup probably isn't reliable here. Not having an Electric move on your CMing Psychic here bites. Bellossom can solo this fight but it needs a lot of setup (3 X Specials is required to OHKO Tentacruel with Solarbeam), so unless you feel like rolling the dice on sleep turns its easier to just let a teammate handle Tentacruel. Seviper can maybe take out Ludicolo with some luck. Skarm is pretty bad here but probably does better in RS.

Zigzagoon (E): Zigzagoon is definitely more useful for its utility functions (Pickup, HM Slave) than as a main battler. It has a strong TM learnset and good Speed which makes it a very capable route cleaner, but it suffers from poor raw attacking stats and pretty bad early Gym matchups. It's not going to sweep many major fights - it can beat Norman with an X Attack and Dig to dance around Slaking, and if given Ice Beam and Thunderbolt it can defeat Winona - but it can contribute something in most of them past Brawly thanks to its Speed, decent STAB Return, and solid coverage. I think it can keep C-tier based off the strength of its utility, Pickup in this game is amazing and being such a good HM slave is handy.

Marill: Overall good performance but not really worthy of A rank (assuming you get one with Huge Power, which isn't hard). Aside from Wattson it can handle most everything through the early-mid game period due to strong bulk and a powerful Strength. The Defense Curl + Rollout combo is a pretty good boss killing tool for awhile, though it loses its usefulness after Winona as snowballing with it becomes harder. The main reason why I don't support it for a promotion is because its lategame boss killing potential is pretty bad. Its Surfs are too weak to bother Tate and Liza much, it struggles to get a Rollout clean going on 8th gym due to all the potential Confusion chances, and against the Elite Four its damage output lags due to lack of powerful STAB and it needs to chug tons of Potions due to its horrible Speed. I think B rank fits: great availability, good enough early-game, great mid-game, falls off lategame when its flaws become more pronounced.

Skarmory: Skarmory's raw offense is fairly mediocre, having Steel Wing and Fly as its best attacks, but it can still deal with most route trainers well enough and it wins many fights off its typing and incredible physical defense alone. Giving it the Steel Wing TM immediately helps it a ton and it also appreciates the Toxic TM, which while not exactly efficient does augment its offense enough to handle bulkier foes it can wall such as Norman's Slaking. It can defeat Norman and Winona basically on its own, stomp Magma and Aqua barring Maxie 1 (Maxie does not have Fire moves post his first fight), does pretty well against Tate and Liza as long as it doesn't get Flamethrowered by Solrock, and has some nice contributions against the E4 - it handles most of Sidney, Drake's Fireless/Not Kingdra mons, (in theory) Steven (the Wallace MU is pretty bad for Skarm), and in MUs it cant do much in, it can at least throw down some suicide Spikes to help its teammates finish the fight. I think C rank is good for this - good availability, good route sweeper for the most part, very safe answer to some major fights due to its typing and utility moves, hurt by low special bulk and weakish raw offense.

Natu: I did not give Xatu Sunnybeam when I got it, instead giving it Giga Drain so I could give Sunnybeam to Bellossom (who needed it more) which allowed it to use its Flying STAB against Dark-types to do better against route trainers. As soon as I got Natu I fed it a Game Corner Psychic TM and 4 Rare Candies and let it go to town. It can almost beat Winona (loses to Altaria and has to use Night Shade to beat Skarm), it handles the ocean routes well, it can do well against Tate and Liza (it does need Sunnybeam or Shadow Ball to do any real damage here though), and it does sweep the 8th gym pretty easily with Calm Mind. The big problem with Xatu is its E4 performance is dreadful. Xatu's Ice/Rock weaknesses and lack of bulk prevent it from really finding setup opportunities, and even then it lacks a bit in power - the attempt where I was able to set up against Wallace, his Gyarados survived +6 Psychic and OHKOed Xatu with Hyper Beam in return. I spent some time deciding if this mon should be D or E rank, and I concluded that this mon should stay in E. This is mostly because I think Natu is inferior to Solrock and Lunatone - both of whom have greater availability and overall better boss MUs. Both of them are in D rank and I can't justify putting Natu in the same tier as them, so unless they get a bump Natu goes into the E rank trash bin.

Bellossom: Despite my Bellossom being kinda blessed, I think on the whole Bellossom is about as good as Vileplume is. You trade some offensive capability (STAB Sludge Bomb, lower SpA) to lose the Psychic weakness, which gives Bellossom a substantially better Tate and Liza matchup - it is capable of beating them mostly on its own if given a partner to handle to Xatu (I used Shadow Ball Linoone for this purpose). I went for the early Oddish because I needed the help against Wattson, but otherwise you aren't missing much by just going right for the Lilycove Gloom once you have access to Sunnybeam TMs, and if you do go for the early Oddish you can still make use of Sludge Bomb as Gloom. You mostly miss STAB Sludge Bomb against Sidney's Shiftry - you can beat his Cacturne with Solarbeam brute force and Magical Leaf + some potions gets the job done against Wallace's Double Team spamming Ludicolo. Bellossom on its own merits is pretty strong against the lategame, handling the final two gyms easily. It is also very strong against Wallace (I do think Vileplume is still slightly better here because it isn't as vulnerable to Tentacruel) and can handle Sidney, Phoebe, and Emerald Glacia (you can set up on Sealeo) mostly on its own. Overall I think Bellossom deserves a bump to C tier, I think it is at least comparable to Vileplume for the period the difference is relevant.

Seviper: Seviper sucks and should probably be demoted to E-tier. It has good offenses, a strong STAB option in Sludge Bomb, and some really nice coverage options such as Crunch, Flamethrower, and Earthquake. However, it is slow, has terrible bulk, and is awful in almost all boss matchups it can take part in. It is a good route sweeper but it chokes hard in major fights and that ultimately makes it almost not worth using. Everything in D rank has a good matchup somewhere and Seviper doesn't even have that.

tl;dr
Leave Zigzagoon (E) in C
Leave Marill in B
Leave Skarm in C
Leave Natu in E
Promote Bellossom to C
Demote Seviper to E
 
Natu: This is mostly because I think Natu is inferior to Solrock and Lunatone - both of whom have greater availability and overall better boss MUs. Both of them are in D rank and I can't justify putting Natu in the same tier as them, so unless they get a bump Natu goes into the E rank trash bin.
wat.

as someone currently running solrock its boss matchups are ass tier and it's wayyy worse than xatu at sweeping or doing things, i.e. Juan or Wallace (I used one X Speed on it when I sent it up vs him, this would have avoided your Gyarados problem)
 
wat.

as someone currently running solrock its boss matchups are ass tier and it's wayyy worse than xatu at sweeping or doing things, i.e. Juan or Wallace (I used one X Speed on it when I sent it up vs him, this would have avoided your Gyarados problem)
How is Xatu better against Winona, Tate and Liza, Phoebe, or Glacia? Solrock's shadow ball is stronger than Xatu's, and I highly doubt that Xatu can calm mind fast enough to neutralize Glacia's STAB ice beams. At least Solrock can 1v1 some of them with rock slide. And if Solrock really is worse for reasons I can't think of right now, then we can just put both in E tier.
 
Well, I recently completed a quick run of Emerald and I think Torchic's viability is a little overrated. Torchic has a really good level up movepool and very solid evolutions, but its matchups throughout the game are usually pretty bad. In Emerald, Torchic has a type disadvantage against several gyms: the rock lady if it didn't evolve yet, flying lady, the psychic twins, and the water dude, which is the most out of all the starters. Granted, in the Elite Four Blaziken held its own against the dark man and killed off ice lady's Glalies but it had to sit out at Wallace's fight.

And maybe I was a little trigger happy defeating every Pokemon I encountered, but Torchic mid-game kept getting paralyzed because Electrikes have an annoying static ability and at this point, Combusken has to use either ember, which is pretty weak at this point, or double kick, which practically increases its chances it'll hit static if the initial strike coming from 30 base power and then you have to use paralyze heal or waste time walking back to the Pokemon center.

Obviously, there's the mid-game with the water type plague, but it seems like those water types are especially designed to laugh at Torchic because they carry dual types that resist fire and fighting stab. Wingulls and Tentacools are really common, and even if you try to ignore them, trainers also love carrying those two with the occasional Staryu, which is thankfully pure water but I'm not sure if any of them learn psychic type moves yet. On another note, those dual typings also throw a wrench into Treecko's strategy, so I'm questioning Treecko's placement; Treecko's only real advantage is that it's a grass type you get really early in the game, and there's not much other grass types that I know that are as good as it, but its level up movepool is horrible (it's not fun relying on absorb for a portion of Grovyle's lifespan; why is slam!? one of the higher level up moves??? and in the remake why is energy ball restricted to Treecko only and not its evolutions!?) and has really poor synchronization for its special attack stat (especially in the remake).

So I'd support demoting Torchic down to either A or B, it's nowhere near as broken Mudkip is but it still has solid strengths.

Magnemite is pretty good once you teach thunderbolt (it otherwise relies on spark). Magnemite also has access to the sought-after parafusion combo with its neat thunder wave it already carries which mitigates the inaccurate supersonic somewhat. Either way, I used Magneton to destroy Wallace's Milotic through parafusion and that was oddly satisfying. If Magneton was faster, it could've killed Wallace's Gyrados but Gyrados Earthquaked it, so I just had to stomach a Hyper Beam with another Pokemon, revive, and then revenge kill because Hyper Beam is ass. Magnemite being B seems pretty much on spot, its downside really being its off-the-path location, but you do get thunderbolt tm from clearing that part, so it's totally worth it, and Magnetmite doesn't need that much babying because there's a big patch of water near the dungeon it's located it.
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Fireburn's analyses on Xatu and Bellossom perfectly encapsulates my thoughts and experiences with those two mons.

as someone currently running solrock its boss matchups are ass tier and it's wayyy worse than xatu at sweeping or doing things, i.e. Juan or Wallace (I used one X Speed on it when I sent it up vs him, this would have avoided your Gyarados problem)
his Gyarados survived +6 Psychic and OHKOed Xatu with Hyper Beam in return.
Not sure how X Speed would have helped. Pretty sure he already outsped in this interaction, otherwise Xatu would not have even gotten the Psychic off; did you mean X Defend? Or did your +6 Xatu have the power to OHKO the Gyara but couldn't outspeed it to begin with?

In any case, I don't disagree with Fireburn's assessment of the meteorites being better mons than Xatu. For starters, both of them can contribute decently vs Gym Leaders from Flannery all the way to Tate&Liza due to their resistances to the Leader's ace (need Toxic or a lot of X items to actually beat Slaking though), so their boss matchups aren't bad to start with. Lunatone's advantage is clear due to Ice Beam access being incredible for wiping out Winona and Drake, though unfortunately it's not available in Emerald to fight the easier variant of Glacia.

Solrock is definitely a worse Pokemon since it's stuck with weak attacks (unSTAB Overheat off 55 SpA is still not strong) until level 37 Rock Slide, and it doesn't have a physical boosting move to augment itself. I feel that Solrock's best endgame moveset would probably consist of Rock Slide, Shadow Ball, Reflect, and Light Screen, basically using the appropriate Screen & attack to try and tank through bosses like Tate&Liza, Sidney, Phoebe, Glacia, and Drake. I don't expect Solrock to ever actually sweep any of the Elite 4, but this moveset is probably the best chance it has of actually beating 2 or more Pokemon without excessive item reliance.
 
Not sure how X Speed would have helped. Pretty sure he already outsped in this interaction, otherwise Xatu would not have even gotten the Psychic off; did you mean X Defend? Or did your +6 Xatu have the power to OHKO the Gyara but couldn't outspeed it to begin with?
Checked back and I misrememebered, I OHKOed Gyara with Raichu and then he sent in Whiscash which I used to set up on
 
Phoebe time


Mightyena: Howl vs Dusclops 1 against Protect, Shadow Ball for 70% on a failed Protect, Howl a second time on a second Protect, KO with Shadow Ball. Outspeed and OHKO Banette 1, 2HKO Sableye (65%) against a Double Team, outspeed and OHKO Banette 2, deal 99% to Dusclops, Sitrus triggers, Shadow Ball finishes tanking an Earthquake for 30% in the process.

Conclusion: S tier. Impressive performance. Only fears a t1 Curse.

Sidebar: I said back before Tate and Liza that Mightyena had been D tier to me throughout the early and mid-game and that if it could perform well vs T+L and Phoebe it would justify maintaining that while it would fall off if it did not. As of this performance Mightyena put in excellent performances against both Tate and Liza and Phoebe while maintaining D rank fighting capability against Juan and Sidney. As a result it is clear that Mightyena is definitively a D rank mon. The only caveat to this that should be included in the write up is that Shadow Ball and Howl are mandatory moveslots to justify this ranking.


Dodrio: Immunity to Dusclops 1 is nice. Use Steel Wing because PP stall is a thing, Protect, Protect, Curse, Dusclops down to 25%, switch out on Full Restore, switch back in on a Confuse Ray, get Cursed again, get Cursed again on the switch? Okay then you suicidal Ghost. Dodrio shouldn't be fighting this Dusclops (something fairly self-evident tbh). Banette 2 (!) comes in, Hyper Potion the Curse damage against Psychic for 32%, Fly deals 50ish% but Thunderbolt KOs from that range. Dry tested the Thunderbolt and it dealt 70% from max so you do win this if you can attack immediately. Dusclops 2 now, Rock Slide does 60%, Ice Beam about the same, Fly does 35%, don't fight Dusclops' with Dodrio. Banette 1 next, Fly cleanly 2HKOs and you just have to heal a Will-o-wisp burn since it can't touch you otherwise, leaves Sableye which can annoy you with Double Team but you 2HKO.

Conclusion: C tier performance. You get turbo wrecked by the Dusclops' but Banette 1 can't touch you, Sableye you beat barring accuracy hax, and you beat Banette 2 as long as you're healthy. An average performance.


Solrock: Oh boy. Don't fight Dusclops 1. Just dont. You lose this pretty hard. vs Banette 1 it's a roll to try and 2HKO with Rock Slide and you get 2HKOed in return by Shadow Ball. vs Banette 2 its even worse cause I actually got outsped and OHKOed (possibly a crit). Dusclops 2 is just as bad. Sableye you can 3HKO but you also get 2HKOed by Shadow Ball. Yeah.

Conclusion: F. F. F. F. F. F. FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.


Kabadra: lol. vs Dusclops 1 you Calm Mind once because you want to avoid Pressure and then get OHKOed by a Shadow Punch. Good start. vs Banette you 2HKO but get OHKOed. lol Sableye. lol Banette 2. lol Dusclops.

Conclusion: F minus


Vileplume: Dusclops 1 is a great matchup, Sleep Powder to immobilize and Petal Dance to avoid pp stall fuckery, each Petal Dance hit is roughly 35-40%. Shadow Punch does maybe 25% back, just avoid Curse. You and Banette 2 each 2HKO each other with Shadow Ball/Psychic and Petal Dance respectively so this one is not a good matchup. Banette 2 is weirdly much weaker and cannot 2HKO with Shadow Ball but your Petal Dance also doesn't 2HKO so its fortunate that the AI loves Will-o-wisp and Grudge. Dusclops 2 gets the Sleep Powder+Petal Dance redux, each hit doing 25-35%, Dusclops' Shadow Ball in return does 25-30% as well while Ice Beam does about 40%; a win because of Sleep Powder but Petal Dance confusions make it complicated. Sableye damages are exactly the same as Banette 1 except it only has accuracy stuff to bother you.

Conclusion: C grade. Weirdly inverted from most Pokemon, does pretty well against the Dusclops's but has some struggles against the other enemies. Pretty average performance.


Whiscash: Pressure is annoying but Whiscash takes Dusclops 1 handily, Surf/Quake/Waterfall are comfortable 3HKOs, Shadow Punch can only manage 20% back. Banette 1 hits harder, managing 30%, but SurfQuake is a comfortable 2HKO in return. Sableye: see Banette 1, same outcome. Banette 2 hits harder again, its Psychic does 24% but its Shadow Ball does - well it does more but I outsped and crit OHKOed with Earthquake so pretty clear who wins that one lol. Lastly, Dusclops 2, SurfQuake is a 3HKO, Shadow Ball does roughly 30%, comfortable win even with Sitrus.

Conclusion: A grade. Nothing Phoebe has can really threaten it, it comfortably 1v1s anything and can attack its way through her team with some Potion support.


Summary:
- Mightyena = S tier, arguably one of the best mons possible for this fight with how free it is to Howl
- Whiscash = A tier
- Dodrio = C tier
- Vileplume = C tier
- Solrock = F tier
- Kadaba - F tier


Proper run: see Mightyena

Alternative version: nvm this was just a Mightyena sweep as well with a Full Restore healing off some confusion hax.



edit: one caveat to Solrocks write up before Punchshroom gives me shit, Solrock's performance does improve if it is taught Shadow Ball instead as you're now able to cleanly 2HKO Banette 1, though the other performances see negligible changes. Possibly an E tier performance with Shadow Ball
 
Last edited:
Ight so I've decided to use Shedinja, Treecko, Geodude (Trade), and Electrike for my run. I've just beaten Brawly and so I figured I'd give a progress update.
The beginning went as you'd expect, Treecko plowed through the early game and had to take Roxanne due to Nincada being of no help there. However I did catch one and have begun training it. Taught Treekco Bullet Seed when I got it, and picked up the Miracle Seed after doing everything I could in Rustboro.
Moving onto Dewford I went through Granite Cave first and acquired a Geodude. After that I entered the Gym (using Nincada against the majority of trainers to level it and healing when necessary). Against Brawly something interesting happened though, my level 19 Grovyle beat Machop and Meditite with ease, but died to Makuhita so I ended up using my level 14 Nincada. Thanks to Nincada's bug typing it was actually able to spam Harden and Sand Attack in conjuction with me occasionally using potions, and it ended up actually defeating Brawly. I was quite impressed with its performance in this fight and thought it was something I should mention for you guys, Nincada's bug typing does seem to have notable defensive utility against Brawly as all his moves are fighting typed.
Anyways I'll continue to update you as I go.
 
Glacia next


Mightyena: Sealeo 1, Howl, Hail, Howl, Ice Ball, Strength for 50ish%, Ice Ball, Strength for KO. Glalie 1, heal check, Ice Beam for 65%, Glalie outspeeds and KOs, no better matchups rest of the way.

Conclusion: E grade. One reliable kill but nothing more.


Vileplume: Sealeo 1, outspeed and deal 75% with Petal Dance, Hail, KO. Sealeo 2 next, 2HKO with Petal Dance, outspeed and can Sleep Powder to avoid Blizzard or just dodge it. Walrein outspeeds and OHKOs, Glalie's outspeed but Glalie 1 can be beaten if it goes for Light Screen t1 against your Sleep Powder, Sludge Bomb will 3HKO and Ice Beam does not OHKO.

Conclusion: D? C? Lots of risk here but can beat the Sealeo's fairly reliably and can sometimes beat a Glalie. Probably D grade but on the borderline.


Whiscash: SurfQuake 3HKOs Sealeo 1, Body Slam does negligible damage and you do outspeed. SurfQuake also 3HKOs Glalie 1, Ice Beam hits back for 37% though and you underspeed do potions are needed to win unless it goes for Light Screen. Sealeo 2's Blizzard hits for about 45%, you do outspeed and 3HKO with Earthquake so this is a winning matchup. Glalie 2 is similar to Glalie 1 as Hail also allows for a free hit, but Explosion trades into you and you can't prevent it. Walrein can only 3HKO you barring Sheer Cold so you do get off two hits for a combined 45% after Sitrus Berry, that's all you can do here though.

Conclusion: Probably C, two reliable kills and two one requiring move choice luck or potion support.


Solrock: Rock Slide does 80% to Sealeo 1 triggering a Potion, Sealeo always goes for Hail, clean kill. 75% vs Glalie 1, Crunch does about the same back, you win if it goes for Light Screen first, you lose if it attacks twice. vs Glalie 2, exact same situation as Glalie 1 and Hail, you are able to tank Explosion from full which is nice, double-edge matchup. Walrein outspeeds and OHKOs you with Surf. Sealeo 2, same as the first.

Conclusion: C, similar to Whiscash, two kills and two maybe kills


Dodrio: Tri Attack just misses the 2HKO vs Sealeo 1 but you can Tri+Hyper Beam (or high roll burn!) since it always Hails. Steel Wing 2HKOs Glalie but you get OHKOed back. Sealeo 2 will usually OHKO you with Blizzard but sometimes it will Hail or miss Blizzard and let you get the Tri Attack+Hyper Beam KO. Walrein is a no go and Glalie 2 is Glalie 1.

Conclusion: E solely by virtue of Sealeo 1s AI. Obvious bad matchup with the type weak against bulky enemies. Does have some hit and run value though, can support by coming in after an ally faints and dropping a Hyper Beam to snipe kills, probably its best utility here.


Kadabra: CMs twice against Hail and Body Slam (70%), then Psychic fails to OHKO. Better is to +1 2HKO eating the hit. Then Glalie in and you die quickly, Psychic deals 80% to Glalie 2. Same deal for the others.

Conclusion: E, basically the same thing as Dodrio, gets a kill on the lead but past that its limited to hit and run tactics. The lack of power/bulk from Alakazam is really showing at this point.


Standard run: Solrock does the lead thing vs Sealeo, Whiscash meets Glalie and does the EQ/Ice Beam/potion trade thing, Solrock does its thing vs Sealeo 2 and stays in to miss Rock Slide vs Glalie, healing Whiscash before dying. Mightyena shows up for some death/chip fodder to run out Hail, Vileplume comes in and Sleep Powders against the new Hail, Glalie low roll the sleep and Plume is able to tank an Ice Beam but procs the Full Restore in the process and faints. Whiscash comes in and attacks into a new Hail and then tanks the Explosion. Walrein is met by Kadabra, Psychic hits for 30% but procs the SDef drop, Psychics again for a near kill and then faints, Sitrus procs after Dodrio comes in and Dodrio is able to KO with Tri Attack to win the game.


Thoughts: I'm wondering if Kadabra deserves to be in A, might need to be B. It does well vs Brawly, Flannery, Winona, and Juan, but it struggles heavily against Norman, Tate and Liza, Sidney, Phoebe, and Glacia. It really falls off hard in the league and I'm not seeing its major battle performance really justifying an A rank considering this. The frailty in the game is really crippling in comparison to something like Gardevoir, and definitely can't match up to something like Breloom or Sceptile.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top