SPOILERS! Pokemon Sword & Shield Pre-Release SPOILERS - Check Post 2!

[Ropalme1914]

Xerneas also is going to hate this, Eternatus probably OHKOes it and Zacian probably hits on the physical side while havin Magearna's typing.
Zygarde might be a mixed bag, but I think it will like this meta a lot more: Zacian and it both can hit each other for SE damage, it probably can take on Zamazenta due to its sheer bulk and typing, and DD most likely outspeeds and OHKOes Eternatus, not to mention that the new Pokémon probably struggle with Ho-Oh (a great matchup to Zyg) but still can deal with Xerneas and maybe support Arceus too.

 

[Siggu]

At least it fared better than Xerneas, which just gets obliterated by literally everything. They tried to create the strongest fairy counters, and they succeeded.

If it wasn't difficult enough with Necrozma-DM basically invalidating Geomancy, now it gets invalidated by two ugly as hell Pokémon that could be beaten by Geomancy, but...

 

[Project_Mars]

Who says nat dex gen 8 will have z moves?

At this point I’m assuming nat dex gen 8 is code for “Gen 6 but with Gen 7 & 8 Pokemon” going by people’s reactions to Z-Moves and Dynamaxing tbh.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Who says nat dex gen 8 will have z moves?

Exactly. It's Nat Dex, not Nat Dex + a bunch of items.

 

[BearBait]

Maxing seems pretty busted, any thoughts on running ladders with and without for a time period to see if it’s problematic or the meta is significantly better without it?

 

[Rarycaris]

Don't forget that Eternatus being able to double its HP completely negates all these counters. The power boost from Max Moves might not be too great, but Eternatus only needs the HP boost when it can already OHKO practically everything in ubers. And that's with conservative assumptions about Eternamax.

If no Z-moves, then no Ultra Necrozma either.

 

[Siggu]

Don't forget that Eternatus being able to double its HP completely negates all these counters. The power boost from Max Moves might not be too great, but Eternatus only needs the HP boost when it can already OHKO practically everything in ubers. And that's with conservative assumptions about Eternamax.

This interestingly makes Eternatus a good check against itself (preferably Scarfed), assuming Eternamax triggers Dynamax Cannon's secondary effect.

 

[Zrp200]

Who says nat dex gen 8 will have z moves?

Me, see post.

 

[Rarycaris]

This interestingly makes Eternatus a good check against itself (preferably Scarfed), assuming Eternamax triggers Dynamax Cannon's secondary effect.

Yep. That and Refrigerate Explosion from Mega Glalie are the only things I can think of with the slightest prayer of OHKOing without setup.

 

[Merritt]

All mega evolutions apart from Mega Rayquaza will be unavailable, and an arbitrary decision will need to be made regarding Rayquaza's ability to mega evolve despite there being exactly 0 mega stones available.

Not trying to weigh in on whether or not to have Z moves and Megas in natdex ou but this should not be a concern. The Mega Ring is required for Rayquaza to Mega Evolve, which is an item that is also very likely going to be unobtainable (the gen 7 equivalent being the Key Stone).

 

[Rarycaris]

I was just thinking about Pressure as a placeholder on Eternatus, and it occurred to me that the Eternamax form will probably get Levitate. That's exactly what happened with Giratina, it's very clearly supposed to be floating (which, at least in the Park, its base form isn't), and that turns a weakness into an immunity.

Where is your god now?

 

[MrHands]

Maxing seems pretty busted, any thoughts on running ladders with and without for a time period to see if it’s problematic or the meta is significantly better without it?

I hope if Dynamax end up being broken instead of chain banning multiple Pokemon we just go for the source.

 

[Linkin Karp]

Honestly the more we see, the madder I get that Volcarona isn't in. First everybody salivating over a new Bug/Fire mon (which does look amazing but wasn't worth the sacrifice of my all-time fave). Then Throat Spray. Then an exact clone with Ice > Fire. Then these incredible boots. And now we keep seeing more and more G-max formes that make it obvious that GF had Kaiju in mind as their inspiration. We have the big monsters, the Tokyo skyscraper that fights back, there are rumors of G-Max TTar playing the role of Godzilla. Now what kind of Kaiju-inspired game would drop Mothra? I don't get it.

 

[Vengeance417]

I was just thinking about Pressure as a placeholder on Eternatus, and it occurred to me that the Eternamax form will probably get Levitate. That's exactly what happened with Giratina, it's very clearly supposed to be floating (which, at least in the Park, its base form isn't), and that turns a weakness into an immunity.

Where is your god now?

From the precedent set by Gigantamax, abilities don't change with the transformation.

Honestly the more we see, the madder I get that Volcarona isn't in. First everybody salivating over a new Bug/Fire mon (which does look amazing but wasn't worth the sacrifice of my all-time fave). Then Throat Spray. Then an exact clone with Ice > Fire. Then these incredible boots. And now we keep seeing more and more G-max formes that make it obvious that GF had Kaiju in mind as their inspiration. We have the big monsters, the Tokyo skyscraper that fights back, there are rumors of G-Max TTar playing the role of Godzilla. Now what kind of Kaiju-inspired game would drop Mothra? I don't get it.

Butterfree is playing the Mothra role now, and tbh even though Butterfree isn't a moth, it looks more like Mothra then Volcarona does.

 

[Zrp200]

Not trying to weigh in on whether or not to have Z moves and Megas in natdex ou but this should not be a concern. The Mega Ring is required for Rayquaza to Mega Evolve, which is an item that is also very likely going to be unobtainable (the gen 7 equivalent being the Key Stone).

fair point. decision would be much less arbitrary than I thought originally. I still think the rest stands:

It is very easy to say that only the Pokemon should be brought over (a simple nullification of Dexit). However, omitting items has the following side effects, with varying severity:​

• All mega evolutions apart from Mega Rayquaza will be unavailable, and an arbitrary decision will need to be made regarding Rayquaza's ability to mega evolve despite there being exactly 0 mega stones available. In addition, I think Mega Evolutions are considered Pokemon by their own right by many people who are advocating for NatDex metas, myself included. (what you replied to)
• Important items relating to the use of abilities or moves would be missing:
  • Lack of plates prevent use of Multitype, forcing Arceus to be normal type
  • Lack of Ultranecrozium Z prevent Necrozma from Ultra Bursting
• Other various signature items of affected Pokemon will be omitted including but not limited to:
  • Soul Dew (Lati@s)
  • Lustrous Orb (Palkia)
  • Adamant Orb (Dialga)
  • Signature Z-Crystals (obviously)
• Also, "in-game" implications mean that these Pokemon would be directly unable to be included:
  • Kyurem-B
  • Kyurem-W
  • Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
  • Necrozma-Dawn-Wings
  • Shaymin-Sky
  • Giratina-O (no Grisious Orb)

It should also be noted that in the last "port", all related items were independently made available in the next game. The entire concept of NatDex is what if Dexit hadn't happened. If Dexit hadn't happened, Game Freak would have done the same thing they did when releasing SM: make all previous items available to be obtained in-game. The only reason that they aren't in SwSh is because of Dexit. ; I don't see why it would make sense for them to not do that again here for any other reason, given existing precedent set in SM.​

 

[Sarbitop]

mr rime is beyond trash right now
Skyscraper pokemon faster how does that make any sense

 

[Zrp200]

Yeah I don't see Zygarde complaining about any developments in gen 8 in metas where it would be allowed. Glare remains broken.

 

[Rarycaris]

From the precedent set by Gigantamax, abilities don't change with the transformation.

That might be why it's Eternamax and not Gigantamax.

 

[JinLong88]

This might be naive, but my two cents is that the basis of Smogon metas should follow what's possible to attain in SwSh and any future add-ons (but still have ban lists and such). But we should not create a meta around "a best-guess what a national dex would be like."

We don't know now iirc, and we may not know for a relatively long time, what the in-game rules would be concerning dMax/gMax in relation to those that hold mega or z stones.

However I concede there could be a large consensus that there should be a nDex meta with all previous items except for z/mega stones.

Something to consider, is that there's a decent chance that GameFreak chose the available items and pokemon to keep the potential brokenness of Maxing in a relatively controllable manner. Practically speaking, this is much more likely than "Gamefreak does things randomly and rashly, etc." .

So having a nDex meta could just totally destroy any semblance of a balance around Maxing, and Maxing might be banned as a mechanic without it actually being in a 'fair' scenario.

 

[Doc97]

Ok guys we know that pokemons can dynamax with any item, but do we know if items still retain their effects during Dynamax?

 

[Sirya]

Ok guys we know that pokemons can dynamax with any item, but do we know if items still retain their effects during Dynamax?

What would be de point of dmaxing with any item if said item wont do anything.

 

[Doc97]

What would be de point of dmaxing with any item if said item wont do anything.

Just to allw any pokemon to possibly Dinamax in a battle

Well that would likely be awesome because would make Dynamax far less broken

 

[Cresselia92]

What would be de point of dmaxing with any item if said item wont do anything.

So that your Pokémon won’t be worthless after using up the Dynamax, unlike Z-Crystal users who remain basically itemless.

 

[Project_Mars]

What would be de point of dmaxing with any item if said item wont do anything.

Just to allw any pokemon to possibly Dinamax in a battle

Well that would likely be awesome because would make Dynamax far less broken

Do you mean remove the “One Dynamax/Gigantamax per game” rule? I don’t see how that would make it far leas broken tbh.

Also: I do agree, the item probably does still have an effect when Dynamaxing, we just likely haven’t been shown a battle where this is the case. And on the subject of Choice Items that were brought up earlier: Doesn't the move Transform reset your Choice Lock when Ditto/Mew/Smeargle use it? I don’t see Max Moves being any different when entering and leaving Dynamax. (Although you are probably stuck to the one move while in Dynamax)

 

[Doc97]

Do you mean remove the “One Dynamax/Gigantamax per game” rule? I don’t see how that would make it far leas broken tbh.

Also: I do agree, the item probably does still have an effect when Dynamaxing, we just likely haven’t been shown a battle where this is the case. And on the subject of Choice Items that were brought up earlier: Doesn't the move Transform reset your Choice Lock when Ditto/Mew/Smeargle use it? I don’t see Max Moves being any different when entering and leaving Dynamax. (Although you are probably stuck to the one move while in Dynamax)

No I just mean that any Pokémon can have the possibility to dynamax in a battle but you can still only do once and that during the Dynamax the effect of the item held by said mon is turned off.