Of course. G-Darm is absurdly broken as nothing in the entire tier can even come close to walling it. It should never see the light of day in OU again. Dracovish isn't as bad, as both its Band and Scarf sets have answers. However, it's nearly impossible to sufficiently cover both sets with anything outside of a balance core containing a water immunity and a Wish passer (or the underwhelming Vaporeon to combine these roles), making it very overcentralizing. I honestly don't think any of the mons currently in Ubers have much of anything coming in the DLC that would make them balanced for the tier. A possible exception might be Cinderace, which could be kept in check by bulky scarfers.
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DLC2 Crown Tundra Speculation Thread [SPOILERS]
- Thread starter Finchinator
- Start date
- Status
The abilities have been shown, G-Zapdos has Defiant, G-Articuno has Competitive and G-Moltres has Berserker
1)
This thing worries me a lot ===> I think that it will be quickbanned in OU without a suspect test.
With no Pursuit in the SwoShi metagame and with no Sucker Punch in OU how can you handle this Ultra Creature if you run an hyper offensive team?
= Adamant. Choice Band. with Grassy Terrain up. Rillaboom may fail to OHKO this thing that has 71/37/37 natural "bulk" only with the resistance to Grass.
This is huge because Primarina can enter in front of a bulky pokemon like this one and almost OHKOing it keeeping the momentum.....
This is huge because Pheromosa is a cleaner, so it is not meant to OHKO from full (in theory) and has more Spe with a positive nature than base 84-Spe Scarfers in the tier.
2) Landorus-T: In my opinion this thing will be suspect-worthy due to the lack of HP Ice in order to deal with it. Massive movepool and good typing + Intimidate + lack of HP Ice makes this thing S+ material in OU in my opinion...... probably too much. I don't think it is quick-ban worthy, but I think that eventually it will be moved away from the OU environment.
3)
is a strange subject:
In my opinion a safe addition for the OU environment thanks to the natural bulk, overage and movepool, but with a big weakness to Ground that even Grassy Terrain can't fix that much. Top OU material even with the lack of reliable recovery.
With no Pursuit in the SwoShi metagame and with no Sucker Punch in OU how can you handle this Ultra Creature if you run an hyper offensive team?
- One example with one of the strongest priority move in the OU environment:
= Adamant. Choice Band. with Grassy Terrain up. Rillaboom may fail to OHKO this thing that has 71/37/37 natural "bulk" only with the resistance to Grass.
- Note that this happens if a Jolly Pheromosa has a Life Orb:
This is huge because Primarina can enter in front of a bulky pokemon like this one and almost OHKOing it keeeping the momentum.....
This is huge because Pheromosa is a cleaner, so it is not meant to OHKO from full (in theory) and has more Spe with a positive nature than base 84-Spe Scarfers in the tier.
2) Landorus-T: In my opinion this thing will be suspect-worthy due to the lack of HP Ice in order to deal with it. Massive movepool and good typing + Intimidate + lack of HP Ice makes this thing S+ material in OU in my opinion...... probably too much. I don't think it is quick-ban worthy, but I think that eventually it will be moved away from the OU environment.
3)
- 10% and 50% are just fine because with Aura Break they basically have no ability. 10%-form is pretty linear with the niche of being able to run Choice Band + Thousand Arrows while hitting Flying-type pokemons from a base 115 Spe, which is nice. 50% form has a good bulk, middling Spe and the movepool wide enough to run a variety of different sets. Borderline bannable: I think that we have to explore its movepool in order to understand how strong it is; the lack of boosting moves (such as Swords Dance and Nasty Plot) will make all the difference.
- 100% form is just too much with base 216 HP.
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Don't agree. Lando lost one counter in hp ice, but it lost z moves ,so that means it's offensive sd sets got a lot worse and now stuff like tang can handle it better and it also lost a good secondary stab(Z fly). I can't see the support set being ban worthy as it lacks any form of recovery and competes with chomp, who has rough skin.
regular molt pretty hype if it wasnt said enough
(e: jk im a clown)
any other prio kills it
still its probably qb because god
its also quad resisting grassy glide1)This thing worries me a lot ===> I think that it will be quickbanned in OU without a suspect test.
With no Pursuit in the SwoShi metagame and with no Sucker Punch in OU how can you handle this Ultra Creature if you run an hyper offensive team?
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa in Grassy Terrain: 255-300 (90.1 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
- One example with one of the strongest priority move in the OU environment:
= Adamant. Choice Band. with Grassy Terrain up. Rillaboom may fail to OHKO this thing that has 71/37/37 natural "bulk" only with the resistance to Grass.
(e: jk im a clown)
any other prio kills it
still its probably qb because god
explore the movepool more, because sub, coil, and ddance exist, all combineable and all having relatively different sets of checks
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No, the huge thing is that Pheromosa resist Grass "only" 2x.
Other priority moves:
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 171-202 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 255-301 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 252-299 (89 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 163-193 (57.5 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (keep in mind that Aegoslash was nerfed this generation)
252+ Atk Choice Band Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 244-288 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (nobody runs Aegi with a Band, but it shows the "bulk" o Pheromosa towards priorities)
252 Atk Choice Band Lycanroc Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 193-228 (68.1 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 183-216 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
===> in OU we have a problem called Pheromosa.
Yes, Coil and Dragon Dance exist, but they boost the attacking prowess of Zygarde "only" by 1.
Still, Zygarde has to compete with Garchomp and Landorus-T for the same slot in a team due to the same/similar typing.
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Absolutely disagree.
If allowed to reach +2 defense with Coil, Zyg can stomach several powerful blows, like:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. +3 56 HP / 220 Def Zygarde in Grassy Terrain: 117-138 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 46% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
idk the set for zyg so this is a makeshift one.
The first hit, which occurs when Zyg is at +2, breaks the sub. Zyg uses the opportunity to hit +3 Coil, while also recovering 12% of its health through GTerrain and Lefties.
+3 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 182-215 (53.3 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Meanwhile this is just a fucking slap to the face
248+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. +3 56 HP / 220 Def Zygarde in Grassy Terrain: 118-141 (31.8 - 38%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
+3 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 84 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 149-176 (49.3 - 58.2%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Don’t even wanna talk about this.
Also, Substitute + Glare/Toxic sets say hi.
Literally the only thing that can deal with Coil/DDance + Sub is Tang, and Tang has to worry about Toxic.
Hat is also a potential check but has to watch out for Banded Iron Tail.
But by far the biggest buff Zyg got this gen was the removal of HP, in this case HP Ice. Without it the amount of mons we have to break past Zyg’s Subs is very limited.
There are few checks and counters to an already boosted Zyg, too.
If you’re lucky, you might be able to take down Zyg with Triple Axel Weavile (banded also Weavile lmao), Defensive Tang and perhaps even Ice Shard Abomasnow idfk
But once Zyg manages to set up, the snowball effect steamrollers your team if you don’t have any of these checks mentioned above.
However, all hope isn’t lost, as Rilla and Bulu existand can (maybe?) be effective checks to Zyg, especially the latter.
Still think Zygarde needs to be among the first few suspect tested, however. With a very wide movepool and the lack of 4MSS, alongside a decent bulk that just gets better Coil setup/Status/Sub, and overall lack of HP Ice makes Zygarde-50% an unstoppable force in Gen 8 OU.
p.s. i hereby nominate bulk up zarude + jungle healing
Hi there, just wanna point out why Tapu Koko will be completely out of control.
Let’s take a look at this Tapu Koko set:
Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Rising Voltage
- Close Combat
- Brave Bird/Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot
I’m not saying this is optimal but with that much coverage you will be able to 2hko almost every mon in the tier.
Indeed, Close Combat can deal with:
Grass Knot is usefull against (which are pretty good rising voltage counters):
Brave Bird deals with:
Dazzling Gleam is usefull for most defensive dragon type mons:
And last but not least, Rising Voltage:
The only (viable) defensive counters to all that coverage would be (mainly thanks to levitate):
Of course, you have to choose 4 out of this 5 moves but you will still be able to 2HKO almost everything.
Moreover, Tapu koko won't be good only at destroying defensive cores as it also has access to Volt-switch and Uturn (it could be an extremely good fast pivot with Heavy duty boots) and here are the mons outspeeding him (without boosts or scarf) :
Let’s take a look at this Tapu Koko set:
Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Rising Voltage
- Close Combat
- Brave Bird/Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot
I’m not saying this is optimal but with that much coverage you will be able to 2hko almost every mon in the tier.
Indeed, Close Combat can deal with:
0 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 468-551 (115.8 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 242-286 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 151-179 (42.8 - 50.8%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 458-541 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 335-395 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 242-286 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 151-179 (42.8 - 50.8%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 458-541 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 335-395 (47.6 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
Grass Knot is usefull against (which are pretty good rising voltage counters):
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 359-424 (85.4 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert: 400-473 (99 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 229-270 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 520-614 (131.9 - 155.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Swampert: 400-473 (99 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 229-270 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 520-614 (131.9 - 155.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Brave Bird deals with:
0 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tangrowth: 208-247 (51.4 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(assault vest tang)
0 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Bulu: 224-265 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 250-296 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recover
(assault vest tang)
0 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Tapu Bulu: 224-265 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 250-296 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recover
Dazzling Gleam is usefull for most defensive dragon type mons:
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 315-374 (75 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 218-260 (59.8 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 136-161 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(2HKO because of multiscale)
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 165-196 (43.1 - 51.3%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 218-260 (59.8 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 136-161 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(2HKO because of multiscale)
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 165-196 (43.1 - 51.3%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
And last but not least, Rising Voltage:
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight in Electric Terrain: 250-296 (62.5 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz in Electric Terrain: 234-276 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos in Electric Terrain: 172-203 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 351-413 (115.4 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed
OHKO252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth in Electric Terrain: 268-316 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Physical def Tang)
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 248 HP / 40+ SpD Tapu Fini: 172-203 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor in Electric Terrain: 259-305 (75.5 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable in Electric Terrain: 242-285 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi in Electric Terrain: 224-265 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz in Electric Terrain: 234-276 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos in Electric Terrain: 172-203 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 351-413 (115.4 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed
OHKO252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth in Electric Terrain: 268-316 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Physical def Tang)
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 248 HP / 40+ SpD Tapu Fini: 172-203 (50.1 - 59.1%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor in Electric Terrain: 259-305 (75.5 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable in Electric Terrain: 242-285 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi in Electric Terrain: 224-265 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The only (viable) defensive counters to all that coverage would be (mainly thanks to levitate):
Of course, you have to choose 4 out of this 5 moves but you will still be able to 2HKO almost everything.
Moreover, Tapu koko won't be good only at destroying defensive cores as it also has access to Volt-switch and Uturn (it could be an extremely good fast pivot with Heavy duty boots) and here are the mons outspeeding him (without boosts or scarf) :
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To say that Zeraora will drop due to the new additions is not as clear as most people think. All the way back when IoA came out we were introduced with two strong answers to it in the form of Tang/Amoonguss along with Rilla. The discovery of HDB Zeraora helped re-establish it as one of the best mons in the tier as being the fastest unboosted mon in the tier with amazing utility in Volt Switch and Knock. It has tools to deal with it’s checks/counters from Grass Knot/Toxic for Hippo, to BU Acro for grasses. Zeraora is very different from how it played last gen due to the buff to Knock and a small increase to it’s movepool. Crown Tundra won’t be different imo. Lando, Chomp, and Zygarde (assuming it doesn’t get banned) will simply force Zera to adapt. Lando looses lefties to Knock and has to be wary of Toxic. Chomp is 2HKOd by Play Rough and doesn’t like getting Toxic’d either. Bulu can still be Toxic’d and Volt Switch’d on. Koko returns, giving Zeraora competition in terms of offensive and defensive utility. Zeraora has a few key advantages over Koko. Zera has two main advantages in access to Knock, and higher speed tier. There’s not much that Zera can outspeed that Koko can’t, but it does outspeed a key threat in Pult and opposing Kokos. Another key advantage is it’s Volt Switch immunity, letting it be a soft check to Koko itself. It can’t threaten to OHKO it, but it threatens it with Knock and can force mindgames on Koko. Koko is still > Zeraora, but Zeraora will still have a place in the metagame.
I think Koko will be irrelevant in the long run. With its excellent speed and endless offensive options in addition to having a good number of support options I am really struggling to see how it would remain in the tier for very long. Its versatility is pretty absurd. Even once you've figured out the set there's really nothing keeping the Koko user from slotting in some tech to destroy whatever your answer is. It looks broken to me. Ido think otherwise Zera would be generally outclassed by Koko, with the exception of the few key advantages you listed.
The main issue is that Koko has most of the tools that Zeraora would use to adept to the metagame, only stronger. Koko can also run Play Rough for Chomp, but it will be much stronger due to STAB. It can also cripple Lando with Toxic and can even run U-Turn to pivot out of it. Its also has Brave Bird for Grass-Types. Special sets will be much stronger on Koko due to the ridiculous power of Rising Voltage, having access to a decently strong secondary STAB attack in Dazzling Gleam, and even reliable recovery in Roost. Knock Off, Bulk Up, and some niche coverage moves like Blaze Kick and Aura Sphere will be its main niche over Koko.
That being said, I could see Zeraora being a solid option to run alongside Koko for the reasons you mentioned. Koko can't run everything it wants to in one set, so Zeraora can assist in weakening checks like Landorus-Therian, Dragapult, and Garchomp with Toxic or Knock Off.
Maybe, it depends on how much pokemon that need to be outspeeded by one specific one, if you know what i am saying
I think that is because outside of Dragapult and Zeraora, the most relevant (top 25) OU Pokemon have a speed tier below base 100 causing a low speed ceiling. The top threats also have a lot of priority available (Rillaboom, Urshifu, etc) to them and there are no dominant scarfers like Lando-T in the past (haven't played a ton lately but Hydreigon was the best before and that is not that good of a set in my experience).
The meta also revolves around fat mons like pex, corvi, and clef so the extra power makes a lot of difference in securing crucial 2HKOs in this meta. It's not super relevant anymore but off the top of my head is +2 Modest Hydreigon could OHKO full spdef clef whereas +2 Timid fails to secure the 2HKO. mons is always a game of inches so the slower meta benefits modest and adamant breakers more.
Im just going to give a brief explanation of how Celeestela can be “The next best thing”
First of all it counters half of the sets of Corvi, Skarmory, Garchomp, Tapu Lele and Rillaboom. With automize and he’s incredible movepool he can break any team with Air Slash, Eq, Heavy, Flash Canon, Flamethrower. It can also bring a complete defensive core with Rotom-Heat and Toxapex. Taking out new threats as Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele.
First of all it counters half of the sets of Corvi, Skarmory, Garchomp, Tapu Lele and Rillaboom. With automize and he’s incredible movepool he can break any team with Air Slash, Eq, Heavy, Flash Canon, Flamethrower. It can also bring a complete defensive core with Rotom-Heat and Toxapex. Taking out new threats as Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele.
Celesteela is a weird pick as a setup sweeper. It virtually mandates weakness policy due to its average attacking stats, and its wonky mixed coverage makes for awkward decisions in stat investment, either sacrificing bulk or power on some of its attacks. The all or nothing nature of its strategies is better relegated to something more consistent like Azumarill or Hawlucha.
As for its defensive sets, they're generally outclassed. Corviknight and Skarmory both have reliable recovery and expansive support move pools. Steela's only real advantage there is Leech Seed. Its well balanced stats and good typing will make it a decent choice for teams that need its specific talents but I hardly expect it to be an OU superstar.
1. Lele gets specs Thunderbolt. Celesteela is merely a check.
2. Celesteela is a poor sweeper due to its lack of power, especially now that it can no longer use Z moves.
3. A core of Pex / Celesteela / Rotom-H is heavily pressured by Lele and outright flattened by Rising Voltage Koko.
Celesteela will be fine as a fat leech seeder that can pressure Clef + Ferrothorn, but as Empress Mobile said, purely defensive and offensive sets will likely be outclassed.
This new DLC will bring so much new stuff, it really feels like the start of a new gen. Plus the fact that we are also getting even more new mons that we don't know much about, it feels like there's even more of an "unknown" factor than the last DLC. It's all quite exciting.
Anyways, I want to take a closer look at Zapdos. HDB and Hurricane are both nice for it of course, and I expect that its defensive sets will continue to be prevalent. Specs Zapdos has been mentioned a couple times in this thread and I think it's the set I am personally most interested in.
Zapdos @ Choice Specs
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Hurricane
- Volt Switch
- Heat Wave / Weather Ball
It will definitely be overshadowed by Koko, and maybe Regieleki at first (until Koko gets banned (?)), but Specs Zapdos has like almost no consistent switch-ins? Hurricane just owns nearly every Electric resist that could like to come in, and is very punishing to cores relying on Grass-types as their Electric switch-in. In other terms, Specs Zapdos can be very effective against typical Specs Koko switch-ins. Although Zapdos is vulnerable to rocks, the extra bulk and Flying typing helps against revenge killers like Banded Bulu.
So yeah. Hyped for Zapdos.
Little known fact is that this gets Spikes now. You can use it as a decent fourth-move option on Specs Naganadel, to set up spikes on pivots into Toxapex, Blissey, Tyranitar, Heatran, etc. a la Ash-Greninja. Of course Specs Naganadel seems overall less consistent than the tried and true NP set, but it definitely seems fun to play around with, even if it doesn't end up staying in the tier for long.
I don't see it lasting too long in the tier, even though Bulu is really good. It's still got its trademark versatility, and without HP Ice, things like Landorus-T, Tangrowth, and Zapdos are even more underequipped to deal with it. It's not something that I think will be in the first wave of bans but I think the sort of challenges that Zygarde proposes have only become harder to deal with this time around.
Proooobably not. On the one hand it lost out on Z moves, completely neutering its QD set, on the other it gained CC, as well as Throat Chop and Drill Run, letting it dunk some of its checks. Probably should give it a fair shake to be safe but not confident on this thing staying in the tier at all. Also, here's a fun fact; with just 40 defense EVs, it always lives Adamant Band Bulu Grassy Glide from full!
It got a nice buff, which is that it can run Extreme Speed with a +Atk nature now, letting it revenge kill with that move a bit better. I honestly never played previous metas very much when this mon was legal, but I can understand what made it broken. Losing Hidden Power means that Heatran is now a surefire answer, but that is still only one mon that can be worn down.
I'm not convinced we need this. Sure our selection of bulky waters to check this have only improved with time, but Blaziken's ability to shred offense with Speed Boost has always made it scarier to me. Not to mention that it can pick and choose its checks to an extent with its last move. The power level of OU after the drops occur might not even make Blaziken seem broken at first but it honestly seems more egregious than most of this list.
I get that we need to test it but it's honestly even stronger than last gen. I get that losing Hidden Power means some Steel types can switch in on it a little better, and that losing Z-moves hurts some of its sets, but Expanding Force is so nutty that it more than makes up for it. I'd also like to mention that it gets Future Sight which seems fun but could also be kinda fucked to play against too and could let Lele overwhelm mons without needing to stay in against them.
It has lots of options, all of them powerful, but it would be a force to reckon with even if Rising Voltage was the only thing it got. Specs seems able to punish nearly everything with correct prediction, Band sets are an unpleasant surprise to certain mons, and mixed sets have been mentioned too, and they seem the most deadly for luring in specific threats and taking them out. Sets with Heavy Duty Boots that just pivot out while dealing damage seem legit as well, even if it lacks the power to break certain things. So yeah, insane, high-profile threat we need to keep an eye on.
I'm not too convinced that Nasty Plot is an absolute godsend for this thing, since in order to make use of it properly it needs to give up some utility, and without Z-moves Hurricane isn't as consistent as it could be. It's also a little hard to place what coverage options it should use until the meta shakes out more. We might end up seeing wonky sets with NP and Hurricane as the only special move. Heavy Duty Boots, on the other hand, is unquestionably amazing. It makes it much more capable of filling its role as a Defogger and makes it even harder to wear down overall. It seems like a nice check to Bulu, among other things too. So yeah, very gluey mon with a lot of utility options, that just sticks around that doesn't die against some teams. Compared to some of the other stuff we'll be getting it's fairly tame, but as the meta gets fatter I feel like Torn-T's influence will be more and more felt.
After Naganadel goes Latios will take its place. Specs Latios is honestly the best it's even been, with a beefed up Fire coverage move and a freer Trick than ever before, since Z-crystals and mega stones don't exist. And of course, no Pursuit. Clefable being forced to run so much phys def just to switch in on Urshifu also hurts its ability to switch in on Latios. It has a good chance of 2HKOing max SpDef Corviknight as well with Mystical Fire. And of course EQ is still an option for it to hit Heatran and Tyranitar harder. I feel like it's in a similar camp as Torn-T and Lando-I where it will not feel immediately broken until after some initial bans.
Imo, Landorus is more hurt by the removal of Hidden Power Ice than it benefits from its removal. Losing HP Ice means that opposing Landorus and Landorus-Therian can pivot into it much more safely. Corviknight is also a decent pivot into it as well, if running spdef. It's a shame Gliscor is not here to basically fully counter it. Honestly it seems less immediately broken than anything above it on this list, but that's often how it goes. No immediate reason to quickban it, or even keep that much of an eye on it at first, in my opinion, but we'll see.
Not much to say here. The addition of Teleport to Blissey and the lack of Z-moves slightly changes the matchups of its stallbreaker set; it will be more inclined to go for Taunt against Blissey. Besides that, it's just Heatran, a historically consistent and good mon.
Some people were debating whether or not it should actually run Play Rough, and I personally have given it some thought as well. Play Rough isn't too excellent against opposing Grass types that would switch in on Bulu, such as Tangrowth and especially Amoonguss, but it does help with Buzzwole and Kommo-o. It also prevents Latios and Dragapult from being able to pivot in on it once. It also gets a good neutral hit against most Flying types, although most are hit harder by Stone Edge. It's also probably one of the best moves to run to prevent Coil Zygarde from getting out of hand, but it doesn't seem necessary. Ultimately, I think it depends on whether Buzzwole and Kommo-o are very prevalent in the meta. It's also worth mentioning that Bulu gets High Horsepower, which is a good option to hit Pex a little harder but mainly smacks Magearna (if it ends up returning). Bulu seems really solid as always. I agree with the general sentiment that it largely outclasses Rillaboom. It could even prove broken in the long run, but I'm not entirely sure.
Le genie of centralization has returned. Without Z-moves, SD sets will be a less common sight, but scarf and defensive sets will remain common. I cannot see Lando-T having anywhere NEAR the amount of usage it got last gen though. It will remain a common defensive glue mon, but the losses I mentioned plus not having HP Ice to check itself + not even having as much of a NEED to check itself might tank its usage a bit.
I feel like Flip Turn might be a little hard to slot on a set. Defog and Moonblast feel necessary, and then picking two between Scald, Nature's Madness, Taunt, and Knock Off seems logical. Maintaining momentum with Flip Turn is probably okay on faster-paced teams slotting Fini as a defogger, but ehhh idk, guess I need to test it. Also CM + Draining Kiss seems nice as well, but I doubt it will completely cut into Primarina's niche since Tapu Fini is sooo weak (Tapu Fini needs to get to +3 to get net HP gain with Draining Kiss against a Seismic Toss spamming Blissey, while Primarina can do it more consistently at only +2) and can't get early-game Scald burns. Suicune also exists and competes with that set too, and has the benefit of maintaining Subs against Blissey. So I think Tapu Fini will just do what it always does, which is defog.
Buzzwole will definitely see some niche use. Great check to Urshifu, Zygarde, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Kartana, Rillaboom, Bulu (kinda).... At the same time it doesn't appreciate an influx of strong Flying types, not to mention the Tapus. A 3 attacks + Roost set seems legit to be able to slot Ice Punch and Poison Jab at once, and threaten those aforementioned Flying and Fairy types, as well as prevent Zygarde from getting out of hand, but then you just invite Toxapex in.... Same old problems for Buzzwole.
Grassy Glide was very hyped on this thing, and while it does have a nice place on a Banded set, I feel like Smart Strike is hard to give up since I feel like Kartana will be called on to revenge kill Tapu Bulu fairly often. Especially with the other Tapus in the tier, terrain will be changing a lot, making me think that Grassy Glide will be mostly consigned to a revenge killing tool instead of a sweeping tool (and at that point why not just revenge kill with banded Bulu?). Compared to last gen, lack of Z-moves + Body Press as an option on Skarmory and Corviknight makes me think that Kartana will eventually shake out as a balanced, middle-of-the-road OU threat.
Garchomp is kinda just there. Playing around with SD + Scale Shot seems really fun, and could be a legit sweeping option, although it makes you even more vulnerable to just being picked off by a Grassy Glide or something. Besides that it's Garchomp. TankChomp might appear if Cinderace or Blaziken exists, SD + SR sets will likely be the more common, but either way I don't see Garchomp making huge impacts.
Still overshadowed by Latios, but I'll take this opportunity to remind everyone that Healing Wish got a nice buff this gen (it doesn't activate til you send out a mon that has actually taken damage), making one of Latias's only niches over Latios that much better. If Latios gets banned (which could actually occur this time around) Latias will basically just be it but more tame. Which makes sense.
Heat Crash is definitely the coverage move this thing wanted and makes up for losing Z-moves; notably it deals with Ferrothorn much more effectively than Superpower ever did, and makes Corviknight, Skarmory, Excadrill, and other Steel types much easier targets. That said, it also doesn't appreciate Skarmory or Corviknight being able to Body Press it. Body Press is also a fairly impressive to Stakataka's movepool (it hits about as hard as Kommo-o's STAB Body Press), but only really works on defensive sets, which I'm not convinced are worth running. A set of Body Press, SR, Toxic, and a filler move can pressure most things decently enough, and it can pick what else it wants to pressure to some extent by choosing it's last move (Steel move for Clefable, Dragapult, Latios, and Tapus, Earthquake for Toxapex, Aegislash, Gengar, etc). That said, Stakataka's defensive typing is still pretty bad. What makes matters worse is most of the things it resists are special attackers (things like Latios, Naganadel, Tapu Lele) but its stats make it more of a physical tank. You can invest in special bulk but you lose out on potential Body Press power, and at that point why not use a much better specially defensive Steel type like Corviknight, Celesteela, or Jirachi? Safe to say that if Stakataka is successful in OU, it's on the merit of its OTR set.
This mon's main defensive niche will be a very solid switch-in to Lando-I that can also defog; if Lando-I leaves the tier I see it losing a lot of that niche. Compared to other flying type defoggers that can switch in on Lando-I, Multiscale makes it much bulkier, it is not neutral to Focus Blast like Corviknight or Mandibuzz, and it has access to Ice Beam to swiftly and judicially take it out. Ice Beam, EQ, Defog, Roost with HDB seems nice, I feel like that's the best coverage in can get in two attacks. As for offensive sets, Dual Wingbeat is alright. It's probably the best STAB move it can run, even if it's not the strongest or most consistent attack, and taking double the chip damage against Ferrothorn / Garchomp / Rocky Helmet users really sucks. A set like DD + Dual Wingbeat + EQ + Fire Punch / Roost with HDB is probably fine, since with Roost it can turn Corviknight into setup fodder, and stuff like Ferrothorn with Body Press as the main attack will have trouble touching it. That said Dragonite still suffers from some of the same issues, which is that it's slow and can't fit all the coverage it wants in one set. Making Dual Wingbeat the foundation of its coverage leads to problems against Zapdos as well, who can still annoy Dragonite with Static and Discharge, even though it lacks Hidden Power Ice.
I feel like this mon will just continue to run CB and Scarf and just be good. Scorching Sands isn't really huge for it, since it could always hit Heatran with Brick Break or Focus Blast, which also helped against Tyranitar, so I see no real reason to change that.
People will still use this. It is still bulkier than Corviknight at least, which is big for switching in on Latios and stuff (it can always avoid the 2HKO from Specs Latios Mystical Fire). Leech Seed is still a pretty free move for it to go for to get some recovery as well. A couple of changes it doesn't appreciate are the increased presence of Trick (from Latios, Lele, Magearna) as well as Urshifu being a mon it can't scout with Protect. But I don't see any reason why this mon would be bad, it just faces more competition.
This thing would be so good if it could still use Hidden Power, or if it got some new coverage move. Meteor Beam is an awesome move for this thing but losing Hidden Power is an even bigger nerf, leaving it even more helpless against Steel-types that it was before. So I actually expect this to be overall even worse than last gen.
I'm gonna make some presumptions about some of the moves these completely new mons get, so take them with a grain of salt. Say for instance that this gets Hurricane and Fire coverage, as well as Nasty Plot, and it has similar (or better) stats to standard Moltres and this thing starts looking really good. Dark and Flying has excellent neutral coverage, although it's resisted by some key mons like Tyranitar, Tapu Koko, and Magearna. It would play as sort of a Hydreigon alternative that gets more stuffed by Tyranitar but has an honestly nicer STAB combo that hits Fini much harder. It would also probably need to run Boots most of the time but that comes with the territory. Choiced sets seem legit too, their U-turn chipping down Tyranitar. Berserk is also a cool ability that lets it push its power even further, and sets with Roost are a neat tech (it honestly only really needs Fire coverage if Magearna returns) that can potentially let it get multiple boosts as well. This is one I cannot see not having a niche in OU at the absolute least.
It has a pretty okay offensive typing, and Defiant is nice for Landorus-T as well. Switching it into Defogs is also a legit option, even though many good Defoggers can punish it if it predicts wrong. This includes Tapu Fini but also defoggers running a Flying attack, which can potentially include Corviknight or Tornadus-T but most egregiously includes its Kantonian counterpart, which is probably one of the best natural stops to it. Its STAB coverage is so incredibly stuffed by regular Zapdos, we can only hope it gets like Stone Edge or something to actually break through it, otherwise it seems to just be asking to be Static'd. If we presume it gets Electric coverage, which seems safer, it would be nice for bulky Waters and Flying types like Skarmory and Corviknight. It definitely has some good qualities on paper but I don't want to make rash judgments until I see the depths of its movepool.
This seems like the kind of mon that will have like no coverage for Steel types, which makes me almost write it off right off the bat. Hopefully it has some tricks up its sleeves, though. Based on typing, it might be better suited to pivot in on certain Defoggers, like Tapu Fini for instance, and it is at least not weak to Brave Bird and resistant to Body Press, making pivoting in on Corviknight easier. Defensively, it's weak to Rocks and it has a not-excellent typing though, so the faster meta will overrun it. It might end up having very great Speed though! We'll just have to wait and see.
I think a neat set for this would be Eerie Spell, Block, Sludge Bomb, Slack Off. You could trap something passive and stall it out of PP, similar to the awful Block Toxapex set. The effectiveness of this strategy depends a lot on how much PP Eerie Spell itself has. Of course a problem with this is that it lures in Blissey, who can just Teleport out. Unlike Toxapex, it wouldn't really lure in Clefable or opposing Toxapex either, so this might not actually be that good. Poison/Psychic isn't that great of a defensive typing either. It's a Knock Off magnet and every relevant Fighting and Fairy type has something for it.
It has a cool new move and a new ability we know nothing about, but I get strong Xurkitree vibes from this, in that it will have excellent Special Attack and no other good stats. If its movepool follows precedents set by the other Regis, we could expect it to have some decent coverage options that include the elemental punches, EQ, and Focus Blast, which is nice at least. It might get Rock Polish too, since the Hoenn Regis get that, but it might not since it seems less "mineral" than them. Thunder Cage is a pretty cool move, but is unfortunately less free to go for than Magma Storm since it has immunities. It might make Regieleki into a nice stallbreaker, being able to trap pivots into Ferrothorn or Blissey or what have you and then punish them with a surprising coverage move. Unfortunately there is no precedent for it getting Taunt, which may hinder its ability as a stallbreaker a lot. We still don't know much about this one and can't infer that much overall (Transistor could be a game-changer) so no real comment.
People have been taking its signature move to be a Dragon-type Eruption clone, and its description on the Pokemon website seems to imply that Dragon's Maw improves the power of Dragon attacks somehow. I can't see a Regi being that fast, so it might be consigned to a wallbreaker role that it faces fierce competition in. It could be successful if it has any means of punishing Fairy types at all. Give it Focus Blast, Sludge Wave, and Flash Cannon and we'll talk, but on paper I'm also fairly "meh" on this one.
We know next to nothing about this mon. If it somehow manages to be really good it could be a nice balancing factor for something like Zygarde or the Tapus, based on its typing. It seems to be implied that it gets form changes as well, which could be any sort of level of threat, a different typing, banned to Ubers.... We just don't know. But it's nice to imagine.
I think it could definitely be re-tested in the tier. Heatran is obviously really big for it, and a general influx of strong Ground types discourage it from Volt Switching around as much. It still has like no switch-ins on the Specs set, but more checks. Also Celesteela is a very nice check to the double boosting CM set.
I think it's safe to try this again, although it will obviously be really good. It gained some revenge killers in Tapu Koko and Scarf Tapu Lele, even if they don't stick around long, and it gained some new defensive checks in Tapu Fini, Heatran, and even Moltres. In terms of coverage it feels more restricted; it still needs Zen Headbutt to beat Toxapex, and Gunk Shot helps it destroy Tapu Fini. And to hit Steel types it needs Pyro Ball, right? Well then you are checked hard by Heatran and Tyranitar. So you run High Jump Kick instead, and then you lose to Buzzwole of all things, not to mention that it tanks your matchup against Ghost types in general (such as Aegislash). Sucker Punch is harder to slot too, what with Koko resisting it and Lele just shutting it down entirely. I haven't mentioned either how much Landorus-T can help curtail it, too.
Haha, no.
Nothing to me suggests that this would be any less constraining on defensive play this time around, either.
Absolutely free this one. TankChomp or helmet Lando-T can chip the hell out of it, Zapdos (or Moltres) punishes it with Static (or Flame Body) and forces it to play prediction games, Heatran is a very sturdy Steel resist that forces it to predict, Buzzwole can maybe beat some sets, plus we never tested Melmetal in a meta with Magnezone, who is excellent at trapping and removing Melmetal locked into Double Iron Bash. Not to mention Slowbro, another great pivot and check. The fact that WishPort Clefable has dropped off a lot prevents it from being healed up against those fat balance cores it works so well against.
I expressed thoughts earlier that this could see a resurgence of SpDef sets. This would let it check Koko and Magearna hard, maybe pivot in on Lele too if it has to. SpDef excadrill has always been sort of an anti-meta pick, so I could just be talking out my ass, and as the meta settles this set could lose its relevance. Excadrill will still be a decent choice though, even with Lando-T back to check it.
Competes with Buzzwole now, surprisingly, who is bulkier and has recovery. Kommo-o maintains access to SR to set it apart. I expect it to drop off a bit, especially initially, since it doesn't handle Ground types as well as Buzzwole does. It can pivot in on Victini though which is neat. Some cool tech we might see is Clanging Scales on defensive sets to hit Zygarde through sub.
Seems like a nice option to try and check Koko and Bulu in one slot, as well as pivot in on Magearna if it returns. Especially since Specs Magearna will be more inclined to run a Fighting move over a Steel move thanks to Heatran's presence.
Defensive Tyranitar will remain a legit option. It checks Naganadel, Latios, and ostensibly Moltres-Galar as well, but if (when) Naganadel's banned I expect it to drop off a lot.
Volcarona becomes even more of a matchup-based threat than before. It secretly wishes that Probopass or Golem-Alola comes in the expansion to potentially trap Heatran (neither are confirmed). It will continue to be a great option against teams lacking Heatran, at least, but I think we can expect to see a lot less of it.
I think we could see this running max SpDef, to switch in on Tapu Koko and Magearna as best as possible.
I mentioned earlier how I thought AV could be nice role compression for a Koko check and steel trapper. It's also worth mentioning that Magnezone doesn't curtail Kartana as well as it has in previous generations, since max defense Body Press is only a 2HKO (it does less than Thunderbolt lol). Specs Magnezone can OHKO Kartana with Thunderbolt, but if Scarf Magnezone catches on again, it will need to run Steel Beam in order to get that OHKO. Just some stuff to keep in mind.
This can use Unaware Soft-Boiled which is a nice buff. Unaware Clefable will be a nice check to CM Latios, Hydreigon, Bulk Up Urshifu, and others, although I expect much of the use it will get in the early meta is to prevent Zygarde from going sicko mode.
Not bad, just outclassed. Knock Off means that some players may opt to run this over Bulu if they are forming a core with Magnezone, so that you can remove Shed Shell from Corviknight and Skarmory. There is another niche I can think of for Rillaboom too. Kartana is one of the best revenge killers for Tapu Bulu, since it resists Grassy Glide so heavily and knock it out with Smart Strike, but Rillaboom doesn't have this problem, living any of Band Kartana's attacks from full, except for Giga Impact perhaps.
Anyways, I want to take a closer look at Zapdos. HDB and Hurricane are both nice for it of course, and I expect that its defensive sets will continue to be prevalent. Specs Zapdos has been mentioned a couple times in this thread and I think it's the set I am personally most interested in.
Zapdos @ Choice Specs
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Hurricane
- Volt Switch
- Heat Wave / Weather Ball
It will definitely be overshadowed by Koko, and maybe Regieleki at first (until Koko gets banned (?)), but Specs Zapdos has like almost no consistent switch-ins? Hurricane just owns nearly every Electric resist that could like to come in, and is very punishing to cores relying on Grass-types as their Electric switch-in. In other terms, Specs Zapdos can be very effective against typical Specs Koko switch-ins. Although Zapdos is vulnerable to rocks, the extra bulk and Flying typing helps against revenge killers like Banded Bulu.
3HKOs
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 188 SpD Rhyperior: 160-189 (37 - 43.7%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery: Rhyperior is not bulky enough to stomach those hits for long.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Excadrill: 135-159 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery: I could see SpDef drill resurging as a check to Koko, especially if Magearna re-enters the meta. Again, it doesn't switch in more than once, and it's owned by Heat Wave or Weather Ball in rain too.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 123-146 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO: Rotom-H can serve as a decent check to Tapu Koko since it's not grounded and therefore doesn't take as much from Rising Voltage. Zapdos does a bit better. It can hit it with a Volt Switch once and then it's in guaranteed 2HKO range from Hurricane (and non-guaranteed 2HKO range from Thunderbolt). Tapu Koko can only manage a 4HKO from Rising Voltage or Volt Switch from full. And of course, Weather Ball in rain bops this as well.
2HKOs
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 186-219 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery: Yup.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 214-253 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery: Gastrodon could see use as a check to Koko that forces it to lock into the otherwise-unfavourable Grass Knot in order to 2HKO it, but again Zapdos doesn't really need to do anything special to threaten it.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 165-195 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO: Hurricane + Thunderbolt is a guaranteed 2HKO against Koko, and Hurricane + Volt Switch has a pretty good chance as well. Heat Wave is a guaranteed 2HKO as well.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery: I don't see SpDef clefable making much of a comeback so long as Urshifu remains, but just letting you know it's not that great of an answer either.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 169-201 (48 - 57.1%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery: Even against a max SpDef Ferrothorn it is not completely safe from Hurricane. That said it wouldn't be safe anyways since Heat Wave is a guaranteed OHKO.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 220-260 (63.9 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO: AVZone is something that could compress a steel trapper and Koko switch-in into one. With some correct prediction it is not a Zapdos switch-in, however.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Nidoqueen: 210-247 (54.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery: have to mention it cause I know some people will use this to try and combat the Koko menace.
OHKOs
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 378-446 (93.5 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO: AV Tangrowth is a (somewhat) check to specs Koko, with Rising Voltage being a non-guaranteed 3HKO, but Zapdos just blows past it with little trouble at all.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 438-516 (101.6 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO: same story here.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 366-432 (106.3 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO: Cool bulu you got there.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Bulu: 390-462 (113.7 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO: SpDef Bulu is really a quite decent Koko switch-in, but the same cannot be said for Zapdos.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 188 SpD Rhyperior: 160-189 (37 - 43.7%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery: Rhyperior is not bulky enough to stomach those hits for long.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Excadrill: 135-159 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery: I could see SpDef drill resurging as a check to Koko, especially if Magearna re-enters the meta. Again, it doesn't switch in more than once, and it's owned by Heat Wave or Weather Ball in rain too.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Heat: 123-146 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO: Rotom-H can serve as a decent check to Tapu Koko since it's not grounded and therefore doesn't take as much from Rising Voltage. Zapdos does a bit better. It can hit it with a Volt Switch once and then it's in guaranteed 2HKO range from Hurricane (and non-guaranteed 2HKO range from Thunderbolt). Tapu Koko can only manage a 4HKO from Rising Voltage or Volt Switch from full. And of course, Weather Ball in rain bops this as well.
2HKOs
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 186-219 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery: Yup.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 214-253 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery: Gastrodon could see use as a check to Koko that forces it to lock into the otherwise-unfavourable Grass Knot in order to 2HKO it, but again Zapdos doesn't really need to do anything special to threaten it.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 165-195 (58.7 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO: Hurricane + Thunderbolt is a guaranteed 2HKO against Koko, and Hurricane + Volt Switch has a pretty good chance as well. Heat Wave is a guaranteed 2HKO as well.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery: I don't see SpDef clefable making much of a comeback so long as Urshifu remains, but just letting you know it's not that great of an answer either.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 169-201 (48 - 57.1%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery: Even against a max SpDef Ferrothorn it is not completely safe from Hurricane. That said it wouldn't be safe anyways since Heat Wave is a guaranteed OHKO.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magnezone: 220-260 (63.9 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO: AVZone is something that could compress a steel trapper and Koko switch-in into one. With some correct prediction it is not a Zapdos switch-in, however.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Nidoqueen: 210-247 (54.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery: have to mention it cause I know some people will use this to try and combat the Koko menace.
OHKOs
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 378-446 (93.5 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO: AV Tangrowth is a (somewhat) check to specs Koko, with Rising Voltage being a non-guaranteed 3HKO, but Zapdos just blows past it with little trouble at all.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 438-516 (101.6 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO: same story here.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 366-432 (106.3 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO: Cool bulu you got there.
252 SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Bulu: 390-462 (113.7 - 134.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO: SpDef Bulu is really a quite decent Koko switch-in, but the same cannot be said for Zapdos.
So yeah. Hyped for Zapdos.
Little known fact is that this gets Spikes now. You can use it as a decent fourth-move option on Specs Naganadel, to set up spikes on pivots into Toxapex, Blissey, Tyranitar, Heatran, etc. a la Ash-Greninja. Of course Specs Naganadel seems overall less consistent than the tried and true NP set, but it definitely seems fun to play around with, even if it doesn't end up staying in the tier for long.
I don't see it lasting too long in the tier, even though Bulu is really good. It's still got its trademark versatility, and without HP Ice, things like Landorus-T, Tangrowth, and Zapdos are even more underequipped to deal with it. It's not something that I think will be in the first wave of bans but I think the sort of challenges that Zygarde proposes have only become harder to deal with this time around.
Proooobably not. On the one hand it lost out on Z moves, completely neutering its QD set, on the other it gained CC, as well as Throat Chop and Drill Run, letting it dunk some of its checks. Probably should give it a fair shake to be safe but not confident on this thing staying in the tier at all. Also, here's a fun fact; with just 40 defense EVs, it always lives Adamant Band Bulu Grassy Glide from full!
It got a nice buff, which is that it can run Extreme Speed with a +Atk nature now, letting it revenge kill with that move a bit better. I honestly never played previous metas very much when this mon was legal, but I can understand what made it broken. Losing Hidden Power means that Heatran is now a surefire answer, but that is still only one mon that can be worn down.
I'm not convinced we need this. Sure our selection of bulky waters to check this have only improved with time, but Blaziken's ability to shred offense with Speed Boost has always made it scarier to me. Not to mention that it can pick and choose its checks to an extent with its last move. The power level of OU after the drops occur might not even make Blaziken seem broken at first but it honestly seems more egregious than most of this list.
I get that we need to test it but it's honestly even stronger than last gen. I get that losing Hidden Power means some Steel types can switch in on it a little better, and that losing Z-moves hurts some of its sets, but Expanding Force is so nutty that it more than makes up for it. I'd also like to mention that it gets Future Sight which seems fun but could also be kinda fucked to play against too and could let Lele overwhelm mons without needing to stay in against them.
It has lots of options, all of them powerful, but it would be a force to reckon with even if Rising Voltage was the only thing it got. Specs seems able to punish nearly everything with correct prediction, Band sets are an unpleasant surprise to certain mons, and mixed sets have been mentioned too, and they seem the most deadly for luring in specific threats and taking them out. Sets with Heavy Duty Boots that just pivot out while dealing damage seem legit as well, even if it lacks the power to break certain things. So yeah, insane, high-profile threat we need to keep an eye on.
I'm not too convinced that Nasty Plot is an absolute godsend for this thing, since in order to make use of it properly it needs to give up some utility, and without Z-moves Hurricane isn't as consistent as it could be. It's also a little hard to place what coverage options it should use until the meta shakes out more. We might end up seeing wonky sets with NP and Hurricane as the only special move. Heavy Duty Boots, on the other hand, is unquestionably amazing. It makes it much more capable of filling its role as a Defogger and makes it even harder to wear down overall. It seems like a nice check to Bulu, among other things too. So yeah, very gluey mon with a lot of utility options, that just sticks around that doesn't die against some teams. Compared to some of the other stuff we'll be getting it's fairly tame, but as the meta gets fatter I feel like Torn-T's influence will be more and more felt.
After Naganadel goes Latios will take its place. Specs Latios is honestly the best it's even been, with a beefed up Fire coverage move and a freer Trick than ever before, since Z-crystals and mega stones don't exist. And of course, no Pursuit. Clefable being forced to run so much phys def just to switch in on Urshifu also hurts its ability to switch in on Latios. It has a good chance of 2HKOing max SpDef Corviknight as well with Mystical Fire. And of course EQ is still an option for it to hit Heatran and Tyranitar harder. I feel like it's in a similar camp as Torn-T and Lando-I where it will not feel immediately broken until after some initial bans.
Imo, Landorus is more hurt by the removal of Hidden Power Ice than it benefits from its removal. Losing HP Ice means that opposing Landorus and Landorus-Therian can pivot into it much more safely. Corviknight is also a decent pivot into it as well, if running spdef. It's a shame Gliscor is not here to basically fully counter it. Honestly it seems less immediately broken than anything above it on this list, but that's often how it goes. No immediate reason to quickban it, or even keep that much of an eye on it at first, in my opinion, but we'll see.
Not much to say here. The addition of Teleport to Blissey and the lack of Z-moves slightly changes the matchups of its stallbreaker set; it will be more inclined to go for Taunt against Blissey. Besides that, it's just Heatran, a historically consistent and good mon.
Some people were debating whether or not it should actually run Play Rough, and I personally have given it some thought as well. Play Rough isn't too excellent against opposing Grass types that would switch in on Bulu, such as Tangrowth and especially Amoonguss, but it does help with Buzzwole and Kommo-o. It also prevents Latios and Dragapult from being able to pivot in on it once. It also gets a good neutral hit against most Flying types, although most are hit harder by Stone Edge. It's also probably one of the best moves to run to prevent Coil Zygarde from getting out of hand, but it doesn't seem necessary. Ultimately, I think it depends on whether Buzzwole and Kommo-o are very prevalent in the meta. It's also worth mentioning that Bulu gets High Horsepower, which is a good option to hit Pex a little harder but mainly smacks Magearna (if it ends up returning). Bulu seems really solid as always. I agree with the general sentiment that it largely outclasses Rillaboom. It could even prove broken in the long run, but I'm not entirely sure.
Le genie of centralization has returned. Without Z-moves, SD sets will be a less common sight, but scarf and defensive sets will remain common. I cannot see Lando-T having anywhere NEAR the amount of usage it got last gen though. It will remain a common defensive glue mon, but the losses I mentioned plus not having HP Ice to check itself + not even having as much of a NEED to check itself might tank its usage a bit.
I feel like Flip Turn might be a little hard to slot on a set. Defog and Moonblast feel necessary, and then picking two between Scald, Nature's Madness, Taunt, and Knock Off seems logical. Maintaining momentum with Flip Turn is probably okay on faster-paced teams slotting Fini as a defogger, but ehhh idk, guess I need to test it. Also CM + Draining Kiss seems nice as well, but I doubt it will completely cut into Primarina's niche since Tapu Fini is sooo weak (Tapu Fini needs to get to +3 to get net HP gain with Draining Kiss against a Seismic Toss spamming Blissey, while Primarina can do it more consistently at only +2) and can't get early-game Scald burns. Suicune also exists and competes with that set too, and has the benefit of maintaining Subs against Blissey. So I think Tapu Fini will just do what it always does, which is defog.
Buzzwole will definitely see some niche use. Great check to Urshifu, Zygarde, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Kartana, Rillaboom, Bulu (kinda).... At the same time it doesn't appreciate an influx of strong Flying types, not to mention the Tapus. A 3 attacks + Roost set seems legit to be able to slot Ice Punch and Poison Jab at once, and threaten those aforementioned Flying and Fairy types, as well as prevent Zygarde from getting out of hand, but then you just invite Toxapex in.... Same old problems for Buzzwole.
Grassy Glide was very hyped on this thing, and while it does have a nice place on a Banded set, I feel like Smart Strike is hard to give up since I feel like Kartana will be called on to revenge kill Tapu Bulu fairly often. Especially with the other Tapus in the tier, terrain will be changing a lot, making me think that Grassy Glide will be mostly consigned to a revenge killing tool instead of a sweeping tool (and at that point why not just revenge kill with banded Bulu?). Compared to last gen, lack of Z-moves + Body Press as an option on Skarmory and Corviknight makes me think that Kartana will eventually shake out as a balanced, middle-of-the-road OU threat.
Garchomp is kinda just there. Playing around with SD + Scale Shot seems really fun, and could be a legit sweeping option, although it makes you even more vulnerable to just being picked off by a Grassy Glide or something. Besides that it's Garchomp. TankChomp might appear if Cinderace or Blaziken exists, SD + SR sets will likely be the more common, but either way I don't see Garchomp making huge impacts.
Still overshadowed by Latios, but I'll take this opportunity to remind everyone that Healing Wish got a nice buff this gen (it doesn't activate til you send out a mon that has actually taken damage), making one of Latias's only niches over Latios that much better. If Latios gets banned (which could actually occur this time around) Latias will basically just be it but more tame. Which makes sense.
Heat Crash is definitely the coverage move this thing wanted and makes up for losing Z-moves; notably it deals with Ferrothorn much more effectively than Superpower ever did, and makes Corviknight, Skarmory, Excadrill, and other Steel types much easier targets. That said, it also doesn't appreciate Skarmory or Corviknight being able to Body Press it. Body Press is also a fairly impressive to Stakataka's movepool (it hits about as hard as Kommo-o's STAB Body Press), but only really works on defensive sets, which I'm not convinced are worth running. A set of Body Press, SR, Toxic, and a filler move can pressure most things decently enough, and it can pick what else it wants to pressure to some extent by choosing it's last move (Steel move for Clefable, Dragapult, Latios, and Tapus, Earthquake for Toxapex, Aegislash, Gengar, etc). That said, Stakataka's defensive typing is still pretty bad. What makes matters worse is most of the things it resists are special attackers (things like Latios, Naganadel, Tapu Lele) but its stats make it more of a physical tank. You can invest in special bulk but you lose out on potential Body Press power, and at that point why not use a much better specially defensive Steel type like Corviknight, Celesteela, or Jirachi? Safe to say that if Stakataka is successful in OU, it's on the merit of its OTR set.
This mon's main defensive niche will be a very solid switch-in to Lando-I that can also defog; if Lando-I leaves the tier I see it losing a lot of that niche. Compared to other flying type defoggers that can switch in on Lando-I, Multiscale makes it much bulkier, it is not neutral to Focus Blast like Corviknight or Mandibuzz, and it has access to Ice Beam to swiftly and judicially take it out. Ice Beam, EQ, Defog, Roost with HDB seems nice, I feel like that's the best coverage in can get in two attacks. As for offensive sets, Dual Wingbeat is alright. It's probably the best STAB move it can run, even if it's not the strongest or most consistent attack, and taking double the chip damage against Ferrothorn / Garchomp / Rocky Helmet users really sucks. A set like DD + Dual Wingbeat + EQ + Fire Punch / Roost with HDB is probably fine, since with Roost it can turn Corviknight into setup fodder, and stuff like Ferrothorn with Body Press as the main attack will have trouble touching it. That said Dragonite still suffers from some of the same issues, which is that it's slow and can't fit all the coverage it wants in one set. Making Dual Wingbeat the foundation of its coverage leads to problems against Zapdos as well, who can still annoy Dragonite with Static and Discharge, even though it lacks Hidden Power Ice.
I feel like this mon will just continue to run CB and Scarf and just be good. Scorching Sands isn't really huge for it, since it could always hit Heatran with Brick Break or Focus Blast, which also helped against Tyranitar, so I see no real reason to change that.
People will still use this. It is still bulkier than Corviknight at least, which is big for switching in on Latios and stuff (it can always avoid the 2HKO from Specs Latios Mystical Fire). Leech Seed is still a pretty free move for it to go for to get some recovery as well. A couple of changes it doesn't appreciate are the increased presence of Trick (from Latios, Lele, Magearna) as well as Urshifu being a mon it can't scout with Protect. But I don't see any reason why this mon would be bad, it just faces more competition.
This thing would be so good if it could still use Hidden Power, or if it got some new coverage move. Meteor Beam is an awesome move for this thing but losing Hidden Power is an even bigger nerf, leaving it even more helpless against Steel-types that it was before. So I actually expect this to be overall even worse than last gen.
I'm gonna make some presumptions about some of the moves these completely new mons get, so take them with a grain of salt. Say for instance that this gets Hurricane and Fire coverage, as well as Nasty Plot, and it has similar (or better) stats to standard Moltres and this thing starts looking really good. Dark and Flying has excellent neutral coverage, although it's resisted by some key mons like Tyranitar, Tapu Koko, and Magearna. It would play as sort of a Hydreigon alternative that gets more stuffed by Tyranitar but has an honestly nicer STAB combo that hits Fini much harder. It would also probably need to run Boots most of the time but that comes with the territory. Choiced sets seem legit too, their U-turn chipping down Tyranitar. Berserk is also a cool ability that lets it push its power even further, and sets with Roost are a neat tech (it honestly only really needs Fire coverage if Magearna returns) that can potentially let it get multiple boosts as well. This is one I cannot see not having a niche in OU at the absolute least.
It has a pretty okay offensive typing, and Defiant is nice for Landorus-T as well. Switching it into Defogs is also a legit option, even though many good Defoggers can punish it if it predicts wrong. This includes Tapu Fini but also defoggers running a Flying attack, which can potentially include Corviknight or Tornadus-T but most egregiously includes its Kantonian counterpart, which is probably one of the best natural stops to it. Its STAB coverage is so incredibly stuffed by regular Zapdos, we can only hope it gets like Stone Edge or something to actually break through it, otherwise it seems to just be asking to be Static'd. If we presume it gets Electric coverage, which seems safer, it would be nice for bulky Waters and Flying types like Skarmory and Corviknight. It definitely has some good qualities on paper but I don't want to make rash judgments until I see the depths of its movepool.
This seems like the kind of mon that will have like no coverage for Steel types, which makes me almost write it off right off the bat. Hopefully it has some tricks up its sleeves, though. Based on typing, it might be better suited to pivot in on certain Defoggers, like Tapu Fini for instance, and it is at least not weak to Brave Bird and resistant to Body Press, making pivoting in on Corviknight easier. Defensively, it's weak to Rocks and it has a not-excellent typing though, so the faster meta will overrun it. It might end up having very great Speed though! We'll just have to wait and see.
I think a neat set for this would be Eerie Spell, Block, Sludge Bomb, Slack Off. You could trap something passive and stall it out of PP, similar to the awful Block Toxapex set. The effectiveness of this strategy depends a lot on how much PP Eerie Spell itself has. Of course a problem with this is that it lures in Blissey, who can just Teleport out. Unlike Toxapex, it wouldn't really lure in Clefable or opposing Toxapex either, so this might not actually be that good. Poison/Psychic isn't that great of a defensive typing either. It's a Knock Off magnet and every relevant Fighting and Fairy type has something for it.
It has a cool new move and a new ability we know nothing about, but I get strong Xurkitree vibes from this, in that it will have excellent Special Attack and no other good stats. If its movepool follows precedents set by the other Regis, we could expect it to have some decent coverage options that include the elemental punches, EQ, and Focus Blast, which is nice at least. It might get Rock Polish too, since the Hoenn Regis get that, but it might not since it seems less "mineral" than them. Thunder Cage is a pretty cool move, but is unfortunately less free to go for than Magma Storm since it has immunities. It might make Regieleki into a nice stallbreaker, being able to trap pivots into Ferrothorn or Blissey or what have you and then punish them with a surprising coverage move. Unfortunately there is no precedent for it getting Taunt, which may hinder its ability as a stallbreaker a lot. We still don't know much about this one and can't infer that much overall (Transistor could be a game-changer) so no real comment.
People have been taking its signature move to be a Dragon-type Eruption clone, and its description on the Pokemon website seems to imply that Dragon's Maw improves the power of Dragon attacks somehow. I can't see a Regi being that fast, so it might be consigned to a wallbreaker role that it faces fierce competition in. It could be successful if it has any means of punishing Fairy types at all. Give it Focus Blast, Sludge Wave, and Flash Cannon and we'll talk, but on paper I'm also fairly "meh" on this one.
We know next to nothing about this mon. If it somehow manages to be really good it could be a nice balancing factor for something like Zygarde or the Tapus, based on its typing. It seems to be implied that it gets form changes as well, which could be any sort of level of threat, a different typing, banned to Ubers.... We just don't know. But it's nice to imagine.
I think it could definitely be re-tested in the tier. Heatran is obviously really big for it, and a general influx of strong Ground types discourage it from Volt Switching around as much. It still has like no switch-ins on the Specs set, but more checks. Also Celesteela is a very nice check to the double boosting CM set.
I think it's safe to try this again, although it will obviously be really good. It gained some revenge killers in Tapu Koko and Scarf Tapu Lele, even if they don't stick around long, and it gained some new defensive checks in Tapu Fini, Heatran, and even Moltres. In terms of coverage it feels more restricted; it still needs Zen Headbutt to beat Toxapex, and Gunk Shot helps it destroy Tapu Fini. And to hit Steel types it needs Pyro Ball, right? Well then you are checked hard by Heatran and Tyranitar. So you run High Jump Kick instead, and then you lose to Buzzwole of all things, not to mention that it tanks your matchup against Ghost types in general (such as Aegislash). Sucker Punch is harder to slot too, what with Koko resisting it and Lele just shutting it down entirely. I haven't mentioned either how much Landorus-T can help curtail it, too.
Haha, no.
Nothing to me suggests that this would be any less constraining on defensive play this time around, either.
Absolutely free this one. TankChomp or helmet Lando-T can chip the hell out of it, Zapdos (or Moltres) punishes it with Static (or Flame Body) and forces it to play prediction games, Heatran is a very sturdy Steel resist that forces it to predict, Buzzwole can maybe beat some sets, plus we never tested Melmetal in a meta with Magnezone, who is excellent at trapping and removing Melmetal locked into Double Iron Bash. Not to mention Slowbro, another great pivot and check. The fact that WishPort Clefable has dropped off a lot prevents it from being healed up against those fat balance cores it works so well against.
I expressed thoughts earlier that this could see a resurgence of SpDef sets. This would let it check Koko and Magearna hard, maybe pivot in on Lele too if it has to. SpDef excadrill has always been sort of an anti-meta pick, so I could just be talking out my ass, and as the meta settles this set could lose its relevance. Excadrill will still be a decent choice though, even with Lando-T back to check it.
Competes with Buzzwole now, surprisingly, who is bulkier and has recovery. Kommo-o maintains access to SR to set it apart. I expect it to drop off a bit, especially initially, since it doesn't handle Ground types as well as Buzzwole does. It can pivot in on Victini though which is neat. Some cool tech we might see is Clanging Scales on defensive sets to hit Zygarde through sub.
Seems like a nice option to try and check Koko and Bulu in one slot, as well as pivot in on Magearna if it returns. Especially since Specs Magearna will be more inclined to run a Fighting move over a Steel move thanks to Heatran's presence.
Defensive Tyranitar will remain a legit option. It checks Naganadel, Latios, and ostensibly Moltres-Galar as well, but if (when) Naganadel's banned I expect it to drop off a lot.
Volcarona becomes even more of a matchup-based threat than before. It secretly wishes that Probopass or Golem-Alola comes in the expansion to potentially trap Heatran (neither are confirmed). It will continue to be a great option against teams lacking Heatran, at least, but I think we can expect to see a lot less of it.
I think we could see this running max SpDef, to switch in on Tapu Koko and Magearna as best as possible.
I mentioned earlier how I thought AV could be nice role compression for a Koko check and steel trapper. It's also worth mentioning that Magnezone doesn't curtail Kartana as well as it has in previous generations, since max defense Body Press is only a 2HKO (it does less than Thunderbolt lol). Specs Magnezone can OHKO Kartana with Thunderbolt, but if Scarf Magnezone catches on again, it will need to run Steel Beam in order to get that OHKO. Just some stuff to keep in mind.
This can use Unaware Soft-Boiled which is a nice buff. Unaware Clefable will be a nice check to CM Latios, Hydreigon, Bulk Up Urshifu, and others, although I expect much of the use it will get in the early meta is to prevent Zygarde from going sicko mode.
Not bad, just outclassed. Knock Off means that some players may opt to run this over Bulu if they are forming a core with Magnezone, so that you can remove Shed Shell from Corviknight and Skarmory. There is another niche I can think of for Rillaboom too. Kartana is one of the best revenge killers for Tapu Bulu, since it resists Grassy Glide so heavily and knock it out with Smart Strike, but Rillaboom doesn't have this problem, living any of Band Kartana's attacks from full, except for Giga Impact perhaps.
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TCTphantom
formerly MX42
I actually am not as worried about this thing as most people are. If I am being honest, I worry more about Naganadel. QD takes a huge hit without Z moves. Having to rely on Focus Miss is bad enough, but Normilium and Fightinium were what truly pushed Pheromosa over the edge. QD, while scary, lacks that nuke it needed to blow open defensive teams. Will it be annoying for HO? Probably if it somehow gets a free turn, but Phero to me seems like it will be pidgeonholed into the All Out Attacker set...which is not as bad. The meta adapted to All Out Attacker Phero in SuMo, and it did not become an issue until QD rolled up. If it is broken, oh well. But at least at the start of the gen I would love to see this thing get let free.
The other banned Ultra beast though, I am less certain on. Z moves once again were what pushed this thing over the edge, but its NP set is way more intact than Phero's QD. While the drop to Dragon Pulse over Draco hurts, the combo of Sludge Wave, Pulse, and Fire Blast is kinda hard to wall. Jury is out on this one, but I would expect this to end up being too good. Unless you are Heatran, switching into Naganadel is kind of not feasible...
I have to disagree strongly with this. Pheromosa was not just banned because of its QD set. The sheer versatility despite its frailty is what sent it over the edge. It can competently run band, scarf (physical, special, OR mixed), QD, AOA as an offensive pivot, AOA + Rapid Spin. It also picked up Throat Chop for Ghosts in USUM and is getting Close Combat. The Speed boost after a KO allows it to outrun every relevant Scarfer and most weather mons as well. The fact it lost one tool on one of its sets while gaining several other new tools and seeing the power level decrease around it is not detrimental to it. We lost its best offensive answer in Mega Pinsir too. I would be pretty shocked to see this thing spend any real amount of time in OU. It can pretty much spec for any matchup with its wacky movepool. Pelipper and Mantine are decent answers but boosted Electroweb would beat them on the switch. It can run Roost and hit it on a predicted switch to undo many turns of residual damage. It's got Drill Run which can nail Toxapex on the switch.
I actually am not as worried about this thing as most people are. If I am being honest, I worry more about Naganadel. QD takes a huge hit without Z moves. Having to rely on Focus Miss is bad enough, but Normilium and Fightinium were what truly pushed Pheromosa over the edge. QD, while scary, lacks that nuke it needed to blow open defensive teams. Will it be annoying for HO? Probably if it somehow gets a free turn, but Phero to me seems like it will be pidgeonholed into the All Out Attacker set...which is not as bad. The meta adapted to All Out Attacker Phero in SuMo, and it did not become an issue until QD rolled up. If it is broken, oh well. But at least at the start of the gen I would love to see this thing get let free.
Regarding Celesteela being outclassed by the metal birds, I think its niche (if it has one) will be in its surprising offensive power for a defensive Pokemon. Even without investment, its Heavy Slams and Flamethrowers hit hard, and while Leech Seed isn't as good as Roost as a recovery move, it doubles as an offensive tool for wearing down opponents. Body Press somewhat undercuts this niche by allowing the birds to deal respectable damage without offensive investment, but not only is Heavy Slam naturally stronger against neutral foes, but it's also not resisted by Fairy and Psychic (two of the main types Steels are meant to take on).
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 130-154 (38.1 - 45.1%)
252+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 102-120 (29.9 - 35.1%)
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 130-154 (38.1 - 45.1%)
252+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 102-120 (29.9 - 35.1%)
: Even though Z-Moves are gone, I think these three might still be too much for OU to handle.: NO.: At first, I wanted this to be unbanned. But then I realized that it has basically no counters.: Boots are going to make this thing incredibly annoying to deal with.: Did this thing really run HP Ice for itself, or was that just a meme?
: Actual Flying-type attacks might be just what Mence needs to be OU material again.: Got just about everything it wanted this gen.
: Why this thing didn't have Nasty Plot before is beyond me.
: Access to Nasty Plot is pretty much the only reason to use either of these over Zapdos: I'm pretty sure Choice sets could work. Anything else would be either bad or outclassed by Corviknight.
: Boots nullify its double weakness to Stealth Rock, which is great if you ever need a bulky Ice-type for some reason.
: This thing will probably be everywhere for like, a week, then immediately disappear to UUBL for the rest of time.
: Don't really see much of a reason to use this over Gastrodon, or even Seismitoad.
: Could probably work as a Volc check. It also gets Heal Bell, which is nice.
: Well, it's not completely unusable anymore...
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Super excited about Moltres. I think as long as you play carefully around Knock Off with it you have a fantastic wall that can either pp stall amazingly with Pressure or punish Physical attackers with a 30% chance to burn. I see the combination of Kartana and Bulu being very strong in this metagame considering how both got access to Grassy Glide, so Moltres would be pretty amazing against those two (tho it doesn't like knock from Kartana nor a potential Stone Edge from Bulu). On top of that it can heavily restrain Landorus-Therian: it simply being there on the team preview will make the Lando user think twice before choosing their moves and can punish U-Turn heavily with a burn, tho it is very likely that we'll see Lando spamming Knock off a bit this gen, so it'll have to be careful about that. And can counter/check many other pokemon like Volcarona, Toxic-less Tran, Corviknight, Celesteela, Buzzwole, Blaziken, physical Genesect, Pheromosa or Excadrill.
On top of its defensive utility, it has got almost perfect offensive coverage with Flamethrower Hurricane and Scorching Sands, with only Rotom-Heat resisting all of it, and sturdy special walls like Blissey/Chansey, SpD Gastrodon, SpD Mandibuzz, SpD Clef, SpD Toxapex and Bulky Zapdos being relatively safe switch-ins (hurricane confusion can shake things up tho). There are obviously other ways of dealing with but most of the time it can deal with that through Scorching Sands burn, hazards, or a bit of chip damage. But it's not limited to that set, you can easily run Toxic, U-Turn or Defog and drop one of the 3 attacks instead, and even Sub + Pressure (though a bit of a letdown when compared to Kyurem because of the HP stat and weakness to Scald, but can really punish the reliance on Stone Edge as counterplay). I think it's gonna be super splashable at the beginning of the meta as a counter to the potentially unbanned Pheromosa and Blaziken, (and Genesect but very unlikely) but might see a drop in viability if some of the stuff i mentioned gets banned.
tldr: it seems to me at first glance to be a pretty spashable pokemon that'll help against some of the early threats and even impose itself as a threat to be prepared for, but could very well flop a bit because of the weakness to knock.
On top of its defensive utility, it has got almost perfect offensive coverage with Flamethrower Hurricane and Scorching Sands, with only Rotom-Heat resisting all of it, and sturdy special walls like Blissey/Chansey, SpD Gastrodon, SpD Mandibuzz, SpD Clef, SpD Toxapex and Bulky Zapdos being relatively safe switch-ins (hurricane confusion can shake things up tho). There are obviously other ways of dealing with but most of the time it can deal with that through Scorching Sands burn, hazards, or a bit of chip damage. But it's not limited to that set, you can easily run Toxic, U-Turn or Defog and drop one of the 3 attacks instead, and even Sub + Pressure (though a bit of a letdown when compared to Kyurem because of the HP stat and weakness to Scald, but can really punish the reliance on Stone Edge as counterplay). I think it's gonna be super splashable at the beginning of the meta as a counter to the potentially unbanned Pheromosa and Blaziken, (and Genesect but very unlikely) but might see a drop in viability if some of the stuff i mentioned gets banned.
tldr: it seems to me at first glance to be a pretty spashable pokemon that'll help against some of the early threats and even impose itself as a threat to be prepared for, but could very well flop a bit because of the weakness to knock.
Hey there, it's interesting to see how all the new tools it got affects its counterplay but I think it's a bit unrealistic to present a mixed all-out-attacker set with Life Orb and 4 attacks to showcase how unwallable it is. Yes, on paper there are only two checks but in practice you're probably gonna have very limited time of action, due to it having no recovery + taking hazard damage, you will have to think twice before bringing it in, and when you do you'll often have to guess the switch-in perfectly if the opponent has a ground type + a grass/dragon, which can be very difficult at high level. When you consider on top of that that scarf Lando can take any of its attack pretty well and threaten it out, running this set becomes very risky. Instead, with Boots and Roost you can bring it multiple times on the field against stuff like Toxapex, Corviknight, Mandibuzz, Slowbro and other stuff with some prediction, with double stab + one of the coverage moves you mentioned or simply U-Turn, you'll be able to chip down its checks or bring it multiple times until you get the opportunity to catch the switch-in with the correct move. In any case, I think the metagame can deal with it with SpD Landorus, SpD Rotom-H, SpD Hippo and Gastrodon (grass knot does respectively 52.8% and 48.8% max), Amoonguss, AV Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu (i don't see BB being really common and even then it takes lots of recoil while Amoonguss and Tangrowth regens themselves on the switch), and other stuff depending on the last coverage move. Scarf Tapu Lele is also a good tool for offensive teams to deal with it. We'll have to see how it develops in the meta but I don't think we can call it broken with the information we have now.
I'm bored so I'm gonna try to predict the Ubers. By Ubers I mean non-cover legendaries that eventually get banned even if it takes the Council 12 months to get around to it.
Blaziken - Yeah this shit is busted. I get it, there will be defensive checks and priority mons to handle it. But that doesn't change the fact that it's the best late game cleaner in the history of Pokemon. It still wipes the fucking floor with frail offense and with Swords Dance + the right coverage move it even smashes through stall. You can't even use Ghosts to fuck with HJK because lol it gets Close Combat. Edit: It gets U-turn now LOL
Tapu Lele - This thing has a 156 base power STAB move in a world without Pursuit. Imagine Banded Tyranitar Stone Edge but 100% accurate, 156% as powerful, and with a stronger secondary STAB. This broken garbage 2HKOs almost literally everything in the game including resists with one move.
Tapu Koko - It's basically just faster Dracovish. The levitating and flying checks that evade Rising Voltage mostly get hit super effectively. Stuff like Hippowdon risks Grass Knot and Koko still has a good base 115 attack to toss around Close Combats. This has so so so many options and similar to Blaziken will require multiple checks and regardless you will still lose to it.
Pheramosa - 151 base speed, STAB U-turn + Close Combat, and atomic powered Ice Beams. It even has Throat Chop to decimate Ghosts, as if it's going to be doing anything other than spamming U-turn all game. Beast Boost allows you to late game sweep similar to Blaziken, Koko, or any number of dumb broken things.
Naganadel - It loses Z moves but who cares, no Pursuit either. Sac a Pokemon to this and suddenly it has +1 speed and you get 6-0ed.
Latios - Kind of reminds me of gen 5 where nothing could really counter it besides prediction and Pursuit (uhh, also Bronzong). Except now there's no Pursuit and Latios gets Mystical Fire and Aura Sphere. There's too many sets it can run anywhere from CM to 3 attack Roost all the way to 4 attack LO / Specs.
Genesect - The fact that this is probably the least broken thing here says wonders about the state of the early DLC2 meta.
Landorus-I - Nothing has changed. The ludicrous power of 4 attacks blitzes through probably 98% of Pokemon. It still gets Calm Mind to set up so even checks like Mandibuzz and Corviknight get mashed.
Zygarde - Glare / Dragon Dance / Coil / Thousand Arrows gives this such a ridiculous number of options that it's painful. Glare is a busted move and after a few Coils this is going to be untouchable from the physical side and with HP Ice no longer in the game things like Landorus-T can no longer tech ways to beat it.
Alternatively we just accept that OU is a hyper offensive paradise and raise the bar of how strong a Pokemon can be to live in OU. At this point imo we should unban all non-cover legendary ubers like Melmetal and Cinderace because really what the fuck is the difference between Dracovish sweeping you and a +2 Blaziken.
That said I'm super excited to play OU after DLC 2. Whatever happens it's going to be wild.
Blaziken - Yeah this shit is busted. I get it, there will be defensive checks and priority mons to handle it. But that doesn't change the fact that it's the best late game cleaner in the history of Pokemon. It still wipes the fucking floor with frail offense and with Swords Dance + the right coverage move it even smashes through stall. You can't even use Ghosts to fuck with HJK because lol it gets Close Combat. Edit: It gets U-turn now LOL
Tapu Lele - This thing has a 156 base power STAB move in a world without Pursuit. Imagine Banded Tyranitar Stone Edge but 100% accurate, 156% as powerful, and with a stronger secondary STAB. This broken garbage 2HKOs almost literally everything in the game including resists with one move.
Tapu Koko - It's basically just faster Dracovish. The levitating and flying checks that evade Rising Voltage mostly get hit super effectively. Stuff like Hippowdon risks Grass Knot and Koko still has a good base 115 attack to toss around Close Combats. This has so so so many options and similar to Blaziken will require multiple checks and regardless you will still lose to it.
Pheramosa - 151 base speed, STAB U-turn + Close Combat, and atomic powered Ice Beams. It even has Throat Chop to decimate Ghosts, as if it's going to be doing anything other than spamming U-turn all game. Beast Boost allows you to late game sweep similar to Blaziken, Koko, or any number of dumb broken things.
Naganadel - It loses Z moves but who cares, no Pursuit either. Sac a Pokemon to this and suddenly it has +1 speed and you get 6-0ed.
Latios - Kind of reminds me of gen 5 where nothing could really counter it besides prediction and Pursuit (uhh, also Bronzong). Except now there's no Pursuit and Latios gets Mystical Fire and Aura Sphere. There's too many sets it can run anywhere from CM to 3 attack Roost all the way to 4 attack LO / Specs.
Genesect - The fact that this is probably the least broken thing here says wonders about the state of the early DLC2 meta.
Landorus-I - Nothing has changed. The ludicrous power of 4 attacks blitzes through probably 98% of Pokemon. It still gets Calm Mind to set up so even checks like Mandibuzz and Corviknight get mashed.
Zygarde - Glare / Dragon Dance / Coil / Thousand Arrows gives this such a ridiculous number of options that it's painful. Glare is a busted move and after a few Coils this is going to be untouchable from the physical side and with HP Ice no longer in the game things like Landorus-T can no longer tech ways to beat it.
Alternatively we just accept that OU is a hyper offensive paradise and raise the bar of how strong a Pokemon can be to live in OU. At this point imo we should unban all non-cover legendary ubers like Melmetal and Cinderace because really what the fuck is the difference between Dracovish sweeping you and a +2 Blaziken.
That said I'm super excited to play OU after DLC 2. Whatever happens it's going to be wild.
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