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Seems like Biden is pretty likely to win 270 electoral votes.

Unless of course the electors just say fuck it, and vote for someone else. Good ol' US constitution. In 2016 10 electors, mostly Democrats, just fucking didn't listen to their state's popular vote and dumped it into a third party. Three were changed but the other seven? Just fine. It's within their legal right to just ignore millions of votes. Oh there was a fine! 1,000 entire US dollars.

That won't happen of course. Surely we won't see a single elector fuck us, leaving the vote at 169/169, and left to be decided by the house of Reps, which would have to vote as states, which would lead to a Trump win if they vote with their party lines.
 
Voting for a third party president is a gesture - a sign people care for policy beyond the corrupt two party system. But this election took "the lesser of two evils" to such an extreme that I can't even get behind it. If Trump were to win the popular vote because enough voters in solid blue states opted for a third party, it would become yet another weapon in the debatable fascist agenda. At the very least he'd repeatedly Tweet about it to drill into supporters' heads that any federal opposition to him is corrupt oppression of the majority.

The need for Ranked Choice Voting becomes more evident every day. To give third party and secondary candidates (i.e. Bernie) an actual shot, and regardless if they win or lose, make the desires of their supporters relevant to the Democratic and Republican machines.
 

Myzozoa

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"So, what do folks think is going to happen with the millions of right wing settler forces and their allies who have and are going to vote for Trump? Do you think they are magically going to go away? Or their politics and interests? And further, do you think Biden and the Democrats are going to reverse the strategic gains of the right? The Supreme Court orchestration being the most recent? Or seriously aim to? Like really? And keep in mind, Trump can still pull off a victory through the electoral college tomorrow, or through mediation with the Republican controlled Senate and Supreme Court. Keep in mind the fact that polls show him only down 4 and 5 points in Arizona, Florida, Michigan, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin is telling.
Folks have invested a lot of faith in elections and bourgeois politics in general, and have not seriously interrogated the material and political nature of white supremacy within this settler-colonial project in the midst of serious capital decline and decay. Nor built alternatives (cause in truth most don't see the need yet, and this is coming from being knee deep in a municipal effort to construct one). Don't let the liberals fool you, a lot worse then Trump is on the way as a result, cause capitalism can't deliver the goods to pay enough of these forces off anymore - and politically it is a zero-sum gain within this framework. So, stalling confrontation with the right it in and of itself won't lead to defeating it, specially if the problem isn't properly analyzed to derive a sound solution and strategy execute it. We are going to have to break with Liberalism and all of its trappings. Capitalism cannot be reformed or tamed, and continuing to ally with those pursuing that path will continue to lead to dead ends. At some point another road must be taken by those wanting to see a better world."


I think optimism is a sort of disease, thinking that things will be fine now that orange man gone is low effort imo. It requires no action or effort on the part of someone if they are able to maintain in their mind the narrative that things are going to become better now that Biden has been elected. Its a selfish belief that excuses the believer from actually participating in making things change. If things get better from here it will because people put in more effort than ever before into agitating for change, not because of some astrological shift in the electoral political landscape. imo.
 
so not only is Biden barely winning the Midwest (where to be fair he’s still stronger than Hillary), he ate shit with Latinos across the board and democrats got murdered downballot; how do you not win the Maine senate race????

this with 200k COVID deaths too, just an utterly incompetent party
 
Imagine blaming the party instead of gerrymandering, voter suppression, and other forms of fuckery
Imagine being this uncritical of the politicians meant to represent you. They're not your friends, they're not idols, they're not celebrities.

Do you really think something like Starr County going from +60 for Clinton to a measly +5 for Biden is the result of voter suppression and "fuckery"? Maybe if that fuckery is the Biden campaign repeatedly saying they don't need hispanics and making racist comments about them, but that's entirely an unforced error on the DNC's part

explain how states like mississippi and south dakota that went overwhelmingly Trump passed progressive policies, meanwhile in California THIS happened:

1604593157127.png


I'm not gonna get into the uber/lyft thing since they spent hundreds of millions of dollars and the proposition was intentionally worded as confusingly as possible, but this one's a lot more clearcut: California is voting to uphold discrimination based on race and sex.

Again: The problem is that the democratic party and a large number of their voters (wealthy neoliberals) are not affected by many of the problems in our country, and don't have the ability to care. It's just a sports game to them, where they get to scream and jeer at how the other side is Bad and pretend their side can do no wrong.

Every single poll shows that when asked about specific policies, voters in the US support leftist, progressive policies in significant margins. The fact that you think the dems are losing purely because of things the GOP do (while the dems do nothing but stand by idly and complain) is proof of your own ignorance and nothing more. If the dems really wanted to win they would run on these policies. AOC crushing her own election multiple times is evidence that running on these policies work. Fuck, OBAMA ran on this stuff and won hard, it's just he's a snake and didn't actually implement any of it.

Again: Democrats lose because they don't want to win. They are designated losers. They don't care about any of us posting in this thread. Just like the GOP, they only care about their wealthy donors giving them millions of dollars so that they can continue to play paper tiger to the GOP.
 
Imagine blaming the party instead of gerrymandering, voter suppression, and other forms of fuckery
There are multiple factors as to why this election is so close, when it should have been a big victory for Democrats. The reasons you listed are of course some of the reasons why. However that does not absolve the Democratic Party of any responsibility of their terrible performance. Like many have listed in this thread, the Democratic party has failed to address the material needs of the working class, which I think is illustrated by Trump's increase in votes from minority groups. If the Democratic party had put together better platforms and policies to speak to disillusioned voters, he could have gotten far more votes. To claim that the Democratic party is not at fault at all is at best incredibly naive, wishful thinking. Must we get into 2016 mindset again and not realize the failures of the democratic party and talk about them so that they could be fixed?

Edit: basically what Lrr said.
 
Imagine blaming the party instead of gerrymandering, voter suppression, and other forms of fuckery
If it comes down to it a presidential win without the senate is absolutely disastrous for the democratic party. Not to mention Trump won the highest share of non-white support of any Republican in 60 years!!!

To simply blame it on just voter suppression and Gerry mandering and not holding Dems accountable for how bad they fucked up their strategy where they were slated to sweep is immensely tone deaf. How embarrassing to challenge a president who presided over this absolute nightmare of a year and have it come down to a slim margin finish. A president that has not had one favorable poll in the past 4 years and still almost won the election.

I'm not watching NV/AZ anymore I have PA flipping blue and biden narrowing the win. I think NV and AZ will still hold blue and GA Is a toss up. NC to Trump.
 
Imagine being this uncritical of the politicians meant to represent you. They're not your friends, they're not idols, they're not celebrities.

Do you really think something like Starr County going from +60 for Clinton to a measly +5 for Biden is the result of voter suppression and "fuckery"? Maybe if that fuckery is the Biden campaign repeatedly saying they don't need hispanics and making racist comments about them, but that's entirely an unforced error on the DNC's part

explain how states like mississippi and south dakota that went overwhelmingly Trump passed progressive policies, meanwhile in California THIS happened:

View attachment 288695

I'm not gonna get into the uber/lyft thing since they spent hundreds of millions of dollars and the proposition was intentionally worded as confusingly as possible, but this one's a lot more clearcut: California is voting to uphold discrimination based on race and sex.

Again: The problem is that the democratic party and a large number of their voters (wealthy neoliberals) are not affected by many of the problems in our country, and don't have the ability to care. It's just a sports game to them, where they get to scream and jeer at how the other side is Bad and pretend their side can do no wrong.

Every single poll shows that when asked about specific policies, voters in the US support leftist, progressive policies in significant margins. The fact that you think the dems are losing purely because of things the GOP do (while the dems do nothing but stand by idly and complain) is proof of your own ignorance and nothing more. If the dems really wanted to win they would run on these policies. AOC crushing her own election multiple times is evidence that running on these policies work. Fuck, OBAMA ran on this stuff and won hard, it's just he's a snake and didn't actually implement any of it.

Again: Democrats lose because they don't want to win. They are designated losers. They don't care about any of us posting in this thread. Just like the GOP, they only care about their wealthy donors giving them millions of dollars so that they can continue to play paper tiger to the GOP.
I'm confused by what you are saying on prop 16. Are you criticizing the proposition for existing in the first place or the fact that people are voting no?
 

Chou Toshio

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Imagine blaming the party instead of gerrymandering, voter suppression, and other forms of fuckery
We blame them because the Dems also utilize Gerrymandering, Voter Suppression, and other fuckery.

They either:
A) Didn’t fight hard enough for genuine democratic reform to voter rights
B) Didn’t do enough to convince Americans to vote for them
C) Didn’t do enough aforementioned fuckery and cheating— in the primary they’ve shown themselves quite excellent at it if they want to be.
D) Some combination of the above

Regardless the result is 100%the responsibility of the shitty shitty party
 

Hipmonlee

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So lets assume Trump loses. Does the GOP turn its back on him immediately?

Like, it seems to me like most of the GOP dont really like the guy, but on the other hand, it seems like a lot of the GOP supporters are really actually Trump supporters.

I am really curious to see what they do here. It doesnt seem like an easy strategic choice for them.
 

Bughouse

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So lets assume Trump loses. Does the GOP turn its back on him immediately?

Like, it seems to me like most of the GOP dont really like the guy, but on the other hand, it seems like a lot of the GOP supporters are really actually Trump supporters.

I am really curious to see what they do here. It doesnt seem like an easy strategic choice for them.
No chance anyone does anything too direct for at least a while. They’ll get primaried to hell just about anywhere but New England, and there aren’t that many elected republicans there anyway. There could be more implicit actions such as the GA Secretary of State’s steadfastness about counting every vote, etc. I don’t expect anyone really taking any lawsuits seriously, for example. Eligible recounts of course, that’s normal. But not the baseless lawsuits. They’ll distance from the kicking and screaming, and that’s about it.

I’m frankly more interested in whether trump/pence pull a Nixon/Ford style pardon.
 

Hipmonlee

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I guess that's what I mean. The pardon only happens if the GOP/Fox etc. continue to defend Trump. If they dont bother, then what would be the point of the pardon?

It feels as though there could be a bit of a split for the GOP. Where they risk fracturing the party if they turn on him, but on the other hand, if Trump gets prosecuted, then they are gonna have to deal with probably years of news coverage about all of the criminal shit he has done.

Not to mention the fact that Trump is still going to be able to tweet and shit. I mean I dont really expect a lot of loyalty on his part.
 

Bughouse

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...the point of the pardon would be to not face federal charges when the DOJ is no longer led by corrupt Barr
 
I guess that's what I mean. The pardon only happens if the GOP/Fox etc. continue to defend Trump. If they dont bother, then what would be the point of the pardon?

It feels as though there could be a bit of a split for the GOP. Where they risk fracturing the party if they turn on him, but on the other hand, if Trump gets prosecuted, then they are gonna have to deal with probably years of news coverage about all of the criminal shit he has done.

Not to mention the fact that Trump is still going to be able to tweet and shit. I mean I dont really expect a lot of loyalty on his part.
the gop-trump alliance was always a marriage of convenience (trump wanted fox to shill him and gop lawmakers to enable / defend him, they wanted judiciary appointments and tax cuts) but now said motivating factor is gone and we are seeing it fray in realtime (as shown by fox's coverage of the election and mcconnell saying 'every vote counts'). in practical terms there shouldn't be any reason for them to continue to stick by him (since the judiciary and tax cuts have already been delivered) but he could still sway the base on his own, especially considering how the conservative media machine has mutated to the point that even fox looks legitimately fair and balanced by comparison. the disconnect from fox has eroded the base's loyalty to the donor class significantly and so the gop probably want trump on their good side if only to keep their voting bloc intact in the short-term. also the pence pardon almost certainly happens but only because the gop have no interest in watching biden's ag try trump for high crimes and misdemeanors, plus said pardon would also be a bribe to keep him from testifying against them (there's still sdny's civil cases against trump and his finances but I wouldn't be surprised if mcconnell was willing to make behind-closed-door concessions in the senate in exchange for those being dropped. again, that would be purely out of a desire to keep trump from flipping on his former party in an attempt to salvage his finances).

in any case, I couldn't tell you what comes of it all. maybe trump absconds to fucking saudi arabia and hides out there for the rest of his life. maybe he goes back to his 'business' and angrily tweeting at biden before coming back to run again in 2024. maybe he decides to invest whatever money he has left into kickstarting his own right-wing media machine. maybe somebody has him epsteined to keep him from ever being a political player again. I don't know. regardless, there's no real loyalty on either side beyond expediency, and the only 'legacy' trumpism will have imo is that the gop will probably commit to his campaign model (loud rallies, extralegal violence, bullying and racism etc) for the foreseeable future, except they'll be doing it with a smarter and more controllable figurehead.
 

Hipmonlee

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Sorry, I guess I dont understand the mechanism by which Trump gets pardoned here? Is he pardoning himself before Biden takes over?
 

Bughouse

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if trump resigns for the sake of a pardon, would pence be considered the 46th president? (& biden the 47th, if he wins)
Yes, and also the entire legal theory of “blanket pardon for whatever could possibly be charged in the future before ever convicted of anything” is frankly tenuous at best. But no one went after Nixon after Ford did it, and I doubt anyone would go after Trump if Pence did the same. The pardon is effectively an admission of guilt anyway.
 
I do at least feel vindicated in my prediction that Pennsylvania would go for Biden. Trump's lead has shrunk to 24,000 (less than the margin he won by in 2016) and still more votes to go from deep blue counties. Once Pennsylvania goes blue, Trump has officially lost.
 
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