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Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations
- Thread starter Kurona
- Start date
This is less about a single move being strange for a Pokémon and more of a movepool oddity in general. Not sure if it has been mentioned elsewhere in the thread, but if so, it deserves to be called out again, for any new readers.
Mr. Rime's level-up learnset at level 1 has 19 moves in it:
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Mr._Rime_(Pokémon)#By_leveling_up
Mr. Rime's level-up learnset at level 1 has 19 moves in it:
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Mr._Rime_(Pokémon)#By_leveling_up
So, looking into this, I think the issue comes from Galarian Mr. Mime still evolving from a normal Mime Jr.. Note that G-Mr. Mime also has fifteen Level 1 moves, and most of these moves are Mime Jr.'s movepool. Since G-Mr. Mime suddenly changes from part Fairy to part Ice & general theme suddenly shifts (from miming to tap dancing) they both had to give it a unique movepool apart from Mime Jr. but, since its possible for G-Mr. Mime and Mr. Rime to have these moves via Mime Jr., had to also include all of Mime Jr.'s movepool has Level 1 moves (plus any additional moves they wanted to throw on it).
Sorry for double-posting, but the above discovery made me curious about the other Regional Variants that evolve from a normal Pokemon. What I got wasn't something I was expecting.
- So A-Marowak does indeed confirm my suspicion, learning nine Level 1 moves with most coming from Cubone.
- G-Weezing has a similar case getting moves from Koffing, bumping it to eleven Level 1 moves.
- So the first one I checked out was actually A-Exeggutor... and what in the world am I looking at? BOTH normal and Alolan Exeggutor ONLY have Level 1 moves (and one move it learns via leveling up, thought it gets it as a Level 1 move as well for move relearner purposes). They gets 18 moves via this way. The only difference between the two is that normal Eveggutor gets Stomp while Alolan Exeggutor gets Dragon Hammer (also A-Exeggutor has a bigger TM/TR list, all of Exeggcute's and moves which match with it). Mr. Rime still beats it be one... let's change that.
- You thought the oddity with Exeggutor was just with it? Nope. There's one more Pokemon which learns everything at Level 1: Raichu. Both Raichu learn twenty-one Level 1 moves, with the only difference being normal Raichu getting Thunder Punch and Alolan Raichu getting Psychic as their evolution bonus move! And like before, Alolan Raichu's TM/TR list is bigger though honestly that's not a shock as Pikachu doesn't lose a Type upon evolving like the others above.
two words
stone evolution
Ludicolo ties eggy with 18 level 1 moves incidentally, didn't have the mind to check the others.
(this is because GF's mentality has largely shifted away from stone evolutions providing immediate power at the cost of having pretty much any level up moves but they want to keep the letter of that for iunno tradition)
It is an interesting choice, but right now I consider it a massive improvement over the previous "well I hope you learned everything you needed cause your moveset is gone".
On this, tecnically the evolutionary stones in SwSh were more or less gated behind acquiring a few badges first.
Obviously, players sorta-sequencebroke it, by going in areas GF didn't want you to go and pick them up 40 levels earlier than you were meant to. That's obviously a error on GF's side (they should have really expected people to be able to just... you know... dodge the pokemon), though in GF's defense, realistically unless you already know that the evolutionary stones are there, you'd not bother going into the higher level areas to begin with.
Assuming they decide that this is unintended behaviour, I can see evolutionary stones gated "a bit harder" in future games, maybe after """surf""" or whatever its equivalent ends up being, or in shops that are available mid-lategame only (like in gen 1 basically).
# of Level 1 moves:
- Nidoqueen & Nidoking: 14
- Poliwrath (& Politoed) & Heliolisk: 15
- Starmie, Vileplume, Bellossom, Musharna, Cinccino, Chandelure & Aegislash: 16
- Ninetales (Normal & Alolan): 17
- Arcanine, Cloyster & Ludicolo, Exeggutor (Normal & Alolan): 18
- Roserade: 19
- Lilligant & Alolan Sandslash: 20
- Raichu (Normal & Alolan), Wigglytuff & Togekiss: 21
- Clefable & Whimsicott: 22
- Shiftry: 23 (WINNER!)
- Eeveelutions
- Magnezone
- Vikavolt
- Gallade (though it still learns eighteen Level 1 moves)
- Froslass
- Galarian Darmanitan
The weird thing about "stone evos don't learn anything by level up" is that it's not even consistent. The Eeveelutions and some others like Froslass have had actual level-up moves since their inception.
Sniped by Pika.
Sniped by Pika.
The exceptions are particular exceptions with actual level up learnsets for specific reasons. The Eeveelutions are a special case where the learnset simply changes entirely because of a type change. Part of Eevee's gimmick is that it always changes type as it evolves, and so too does the movepool. They're a special lot of Pokemon.
Magnezone and Vikavolt are formerly special level up evolutions tied to certain locations in the games.
Gallade, Froslass, and Galarian Darmanitan have normal level up learnsets because their counterparts do as well. Gardevoir, Glalie, and Unovan Darmanitan are all normal level up evolutions with normally distributed learnsets and thus their branched counterparts (or in Darm's case, regional) stay consistent with their previous gen counterparts.
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I agree it's for the better, especially if they insist on treating stone evolutions as they are. It's just...odd to pair it hand & hand with this. Guessing it was spearate decisions and they just kind of shrugged at it if it was ever brought up.
Most of the exceptions have some reasoning to them.
While other stone evolutions operate on a "you can evolve them now BUT lose out on your moveset" design philosophy:
-Eevee was the inverse by design: it has a smaller level up movepool while its evolutions are more expanded. Its gimmick is multiple evolution paths, into wildly different types. You get it in the same town you can buy all the stones, so you're encouraged to evolve it ASAP into one of your choice.
-Sunkern is probably the weirdest one, for some reason they wanted the gimmick of this is the weakest pokemon (so you'd think to evolve it asap) but you can keep it around to learn DIFFERENT moves from Sunflora, rather than in place of. I guess a different take on a magikarp situation? Like I said, weirdest.
...actually come to think of it, I think that the unused voodoo/jiangshi pokemon had a similar gimmick going on...hm....
-Gallade & Froslass are designed to be equivalent to the original offshoots Gardevoir & Gallade, despite being by stone. So they get full movesets so you can treat them equivalently, like any given branched evolution. Incidentally we can see a similar thing in gen 2 with Politoed; it has a very truncated moveset because it's meant to have parity with its stone-evolved counterpart Poliwrath
I mean, it's a pokemon game. Of COURSE the first thing everyone does is explore as far as they can in any given area(especially given the free PokeDolls). Where it gets odder is how different the gates were. Fire/Water/Thunder/Leaf/Sun/Moon/Dawn are all available before the first gym with a minimum of effort(officially right after 3rd gym). Leaf isn't even wild area, it's just near the grass gym. Shiny/Dusk/Ice are post-Stow-on-Side. Is Alolan Ninetails so much better than regular Ninetails that you need to limit it to after 6 gyms rather than 0/3?
Okay, Triple Axel. Yes, it's a tutor move, and one with odd flavor. But there's still more non-ice types(16) that get it than ice-types(13). The new ice-type legendary doesn't get it. And it doesn't actually make any sense from a flavor standpoint. Just...why does GF hate ice-types so much?
Triple axel is a move in figure skating, so most pokemon that have something to do with that get it, just like fightings getting mega punch/kick
And yet, despite being labeled as a kick move, Milotic, a Pokémon that has no limbs, can get it. How is it supposed to kick without legs?
I'm curious... does the japanese description of Triple Axel mention kicks? I know the name is the same, but dunno about the move description...
They were talking about the move's Japanese flavor text(because the English one specifically mentions kicks), not the name of the move itself
So, upon thinking about it, I decided to check on what an actual triple axel looks like... and it wasn't what I thought it was, making me think is maybe GF also got confused. Here's an example of a perfect Triple Axel:
So now that we got that settled (BTW it's description is a cut & paste of Triple Kick, all they did with Triple Axel was change the Type, name, and distribution), let's look through the list for some oddities:
A-Sandshrew family (Okay, I can see them spinning on ice, but kicking? Can they even lift their legs a foot off the ground?)
A-Ninetales & Glaceon (These moves look to be more biped doable then quadruped)
Milotic, Froslass, Cryogonal, Popplio family, & Frosmoth (no legs)
Okay, so it's not just a Milotic thing, we have several no leg Pokemon learning this move plus a few who this move would be hard to perform it. So this makes me think that... ugh... I don't know. I would say it means GF didn't intend on this being a kicking move but then again they named it after an ice skating move which involves a "kick" at the end of it (and I also think they were visioning another ice skating move where the skater was spinning around with their legs out). ACTUALLY, let's take it from there: spinning around with their leg out. But, does it HAVE to be their leg? As long as the Pokemon is spinning on the ice, could they not substitute another limb like a claw/arm (A-Sandshrew family, Froslass), a tail (A-Ninetales, Glaceon, Milotic, Popplio family), or a wing/protrusion (Frosmoth/Cryogonal)? Heck, this can also go for the other Pokemon who could kick but have better methods to hit with while spinning (Articuno's wings, Mew's tail, Sneasel family's claws, Delibird's bag tail, Lopunny's ears, Minccino family's tail, Steenee & Tsareena's hair, Mr Rime's cane).
As for why Hitmonlee and maybe some other kicking prone Pokemon can't learn it, maybe has to do with the way GF imagining the move being done. Hitmonlee puts ALL its power behind its kicks, probably could propel itself forward with its kicking. While it can learn Triple Kick, it's still holding itself in place with one of its feet, using it as an anchored pivot. However Triple Axel either freezes the floor under the user or covers their feet (or other limb) in ice so that it can skate and do Ice-type damage. That changes things, if Hitmonlee puts all its power behind its kicking it would more than likely end up slipping on the first attempted kick because it's not on steady ground anymore.
Also the exact same as the english one. Direct translation
Quick edit: I think gamefreak took the triple axel as you doing a spin separatedly 3 times. I think most "hits x to x times" moves are a pokemon doing an attack, then preparing to do it again, not a rapid fire of multiple attacks (which fits moves like close combat more, which often are single hit moves)
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Fast Queen Bug gets it cuz... Dem legs tho. Same for Pear Queen and Weird Kicking Top. Oh, and Waifu Bunny.
It has the exact same description as Triple Kick (the move it's based on) so it's possible that Game Freak just didn't give a shit.
Did you just call Tsareena a pear
Anyway while most of the non-leggy Triple Axel users are confusing, I have no issue with Cryogonal getting it.
Obviously milotic uses the move by jumping at the opponent, straightening itself, and spinning at belt sander speeds while crashing into the opponent
Going out of my way to explore despite running the risk of bumping into overleveled mons should give me a reward. It's very refreshing compared to NPCs blocking exploration at every possible opportunity too.
I do agree, however, that moves should be better paced for level-up.
Honestly, I think Triple Axel makes enough sense as implemented. The in-game animation is a jump, "spin" (spinning ice animation) and landing repeated 3 times, which is essentially what what Axel jumps are IRL (jump, spin 3 times, land). GF was pretty lazy on the description of the move, but everything else about the move makes sense, even the increasing power. In ice skating competitions irl, a single axel jump is worth 1.1 points, the double axel jump is worth 3.3 points, and the triple axel jump is worth 8 points, which corresponds with the increasing power of the move in-game. Axel jumps are difficult but elegant, requiring a lot of force and power to actually pull off, but when done right looks amazing.
When stripped back, having legs to perform the axel makes sense from a human perspective, but for something like Primarina or Milotic (or any pokemon w/o prominent legs) the move still makes sense to me. Milotic can slither, gain enough force to jump and spin, hitting (kicking) things with its tail or body. While the end of Axel jump's features a "kick," with the skater sticking their leg out, i'd say in-game the damage either comes from the spin itself, or the kick at the end's power being determined by the amount of rotations. Each Axel jump requires more and more force to pull off (The triple axel that Pikachu315111 linked notes that Mirai Nagasu went into her jump at 20 mph!), so a single Axel would have less force behind it than a double or triple Axel.
I really think the focus of this move is the spin, with the main criteria for this move is the capacity to spin and/or the elegance/beauty of the pokemon themselves. Pokemon like Articuno, Primarina, Ninetales-A, Cinccino, Glaceon, etc. work, as I can see them being able to pull off elegant moves like a triple Axel, being able to jump and do a graceful, but powerful spin. For spinning, a lot of the pokemon who can learn Triple Axel can learn Rapid Spin. For those who can not learn Rapid Spin, they still can spin like in a triple axel (Examples: Gallade & Weavile, both make sense in that they can both put in the force to do the jump + spin a triple Axel would require).
When stripped back, having legs to perform the axel makes sense from a human perspective, but for something like Primarina or Milotic (or any pokemon w/o prominent legs) the move still makes sense to me. Milotic can slither, gain enough force to jump and spin, hitting (kicking) things with its tail or body. While the end of Axel jump's features a "kick," with the skater sticking their leg out, i'd say in-game the damage either comes from the spin itself, or the kick at the end's power being determined by the amount of rotations. Each Axel jump requires more and more force to pull off (The triple axel that Pikachu315111 linked notes that Mirai Nagasu went into her jump at 20 mph!), so a single Axel would have less force behind it than a double or triple Axel.
I really think the focus of this move is the spin, with the main criteria for this move is the capacity to spin and/or the elegance/beauty of the pokemon themselves. Pokemon like Articuno, Primarina, Ninetales-A, Cinccino, Glaceon, etc. work, as I can see them being able to pull off elegant moves like a triple Axel, being able to jump and do a graceful, but powerful spin. For spinning, a lot of the pokemon who can learn Triple Axel can learn Rapid Spin. For those who can not learn Rapid Spin, they still can spin like in a triple axel (Examples: Gallade & Weavile, both make sense in that they can both put in the force to do the jump + spin a triple Axel would require).