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Not at all. From memory I think the streak can still be active for them to appear as a multi partner. I don't think they'll appear as an opponent in singles if the streak is active (as that requires a number for them to appear at) but I might be wrong.
Alright, after considering all the feedback, here is the definitve ruleset for the
Generation Gap Challenge
If you want to sign-up, send me a DM confirming your participation until Sunday, 7th March 8 PM GMT where you also include which of the three generations you'd prefer to play; you can specify your first, second and last priority.
The challenge will take place if at least 6 people (5 with myself included) participate.
I will then try to arrange the participants into three pools for the respective generations such that as many people as possibe can play their prefered generation.
After that, we determine #signups/3 team captains (which will probably just be the most experienced players that signed up) which then get to pick the remaining players of their team in a draft system. As an example, if we have 9 participants (and therefore 3 teams) the draft would look like this (the order of the team captains will be randomly determined beforehand):
team captain #1 picks his first teammate
team captain #2 picks his first teammate
team captain #3 picks his first and second teammate at the same time
team captain #2 picks his second teammate
team captain #1 picks his second teammate
Each team must consist of a first generation, a second generation and a third generation player.
If the number of participants turns out to not be divisible by three, one or two teams will have four players in total, two of which will play the same generation.
In every generation, each participant of the respective generation gets to pick 2 Pokemon that can be used exclusively by him. This will again happen with a draft system analogous to the one above, but now the order of the teams is going to be reversed.
Pokemon that are banned from use in this challenge include everything in the S+ and S rank of this tierlist.
As soon as the teams and exclusive Pokemon rights are determined, we will start with the challenge.
We will go through all facilities excluding Factory in alphabetical order. For each facility there is a timeframe of three weeks, where the players try to achieve the highest streak number they possibly can. Proof can be provided either by video or a detailed write-up with a screenshot of the streak number.
The scores of a team for a facility will be the sum of the two best streaks achieved by two different players of their team. Example: In Arena, Player 1 of Team 1 gets a highest streak of 50, Player 2 of Team 1 gets 38 and Player 3 gets 45. The score of Team 1 for Arena will be 50+45=95. The team with the highest score then gets 10 points, and the other teams get a fraction of that proportional to how close their score is to the highest score.
Rewards for the winning team will be provided by our friendly sponsor, the Bank of Hoenn.
If there are any further questions or concerns, feel free to ask!
EDIT: Timeframe per facility changed from two to three weeks.
I had initially planned to just use your bog-standard attacker Tauros. However, N1c69's idea from a while back about a defensive Tauros got me curious about how well it could fare as a bulky backup mon. Surprisingly, it's not all that terrible - though I do think it's worth testing in a different facility.
I actually love having just 3 pokemon in palace doubles, and have found some ways to abuse it. My previous palace doubles streak was 37 using:
Mix offensive Gyarados, CB Golem, bulky Kingdra, all with sassy natures. The idea was a sassy nature means they are likely attack on turn one, and so far I have rarely seen Golem choose any move other than EQ, since the rules that determine which move Golem chooses, must calculate that EQ will in most cases do the most damage to both of the opponents mons. Also, CB EQ had a good chance to hit the last of the opponents mons on the switch, making easy wins.
Also, you get 5 BP from streak one in palace doubles, so imo it's one of the fasterest to grind BP in.
Happy to see the idea of bulky Tauros being tested.
I actually love having just 3 pokemon in palace doubles, and have found some ways to abuse it. My previous palace doubles streak was 37 using:
Mix offensive Gyarados, CB Golem, bulky Kingdra, all with sassy natures. The idea was a sassy nature means they are likely attack on turn one, and so far I have rarely seen Golem choose any move other than EQ, since the rules that determine which move Golem chooses, must calculate that EQ will in most cases do the most damage to both of the opponents mons. Also, CB EQ had a good chance to hit the last of the opponents mons on the switch, making easy wins.
Also, you get 5 BP from streak one in palace doubles, so imo it's one of the fasterest to grind BP in.
I was pleasantly surprised to see that I had a streak of 56 wins currently active in Factory Singles Open Level (no idea when I did that) so decided to pick that up before returning to the Pike. I managed a complete round before breaking my streak - but as 64 wins puts me at second place on the Factory leaderboard (and, hilariously, just one win ahead of my ancient record on level 50), I'm happy with it!
I went with Slaking3, Armaldo3, and Blissey2. Traded Armaldo for Moltres6 after battle 1. Trainer #4 was skilled in the Fighting type, so traded Slaking for Gengar4. Then, after battle 6, traded Gengar for Alakazam4. Blissey absolutely pulled her weight in this round; most battles were pretty much solely her doing.
Fought Noland again at Battle 63. He led off with Medicham, which I hoped wasn't the EndRevver set. It was. It proceeded to Fake Out Alakazam. Hoping that Psychic would fall short of a KO and bait it into Endure-ing again, I attacked and brought it to ~10%. Medicham then proceeded to repeatedly Endure while I switched back and forth between Alakazam and Moltres. From there, Moltres was able to survive a weakened Reversal and finish it off.
Electrode came out next - Blissey took care of it from behind a Substitute as I was worried about Explosion, but I've no idea which set it was because all it ever used was Thunderbolt. Then came Scizor, which Moltres swiftly took down with Overheat.
Battles #56-63 being so deceptively easy made losing in the next round all the harder...
I went with Arcanine3, Mr Mime3, and Aerodactyl4 as my squad. Unfortunately, while the first trainer was a piece of cake, the second led with Regirock, which wiped out all three team members with Rock Slide as they failed to bring it down. Damn it.
My streak on the Battle Pike officially ended on the 777 cleared rooms benchmark in retail. The lost came on this round as I previously entered two Nostalgia rooms however, the first and 2nd one left me with all my Pokemon paralyzed. The next option was an Aroma of Pokemon room and I chose it thinking that if I can get to a Wild room, there would be no problem since I can heal my whole party. It was a trainer battle against Expert Miranda (Sets 1-4 including Legends 1-6).
She lead with Espeon and with Blissey paralyzed it was a trick match-up since Blissey can get overwhelmed by boosted Psychics and the threat of a paralysis could be too dangerous to play with even if I did swap into. I made the decision of staying and hoping I can grab a CM since I know that the Lum Berry will activate at the end of the turn. Unfortunately Espeon gets a flinch with Bite leaving me at 81 HP, barely at 50%.
255+ SpA Espeon Bite vs. 28 HP / 6 SpD Latios: 71-84 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO Possible damage amounts: (71, 72, 73, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84)
Lum activates, however I am on a more difficult position because I lost a turn and even if I CM, the Espeon will 2HKO Latios anyways. If it has CM, I would need to heal anyways because I can't otherwise use a paralyzed Heracross. I decide to go for Ice Beam and Espeon Bites again leaving Latios exactly at 1 HP. I went for a Thunderbolt this time and Espeon still on red survives and KOs Latios with Bite.
Blissey comes next and Aromatherapys on the turn Espeon surprisingly reveals Wish which means that it never had CM. Next turn, Blissey tanks a Psychic and Blissey finishes it off with Seismic Toss. Next mon is Alakazam. Normally I wouldn't be worried since 3/4 of the sets are easily beaten by her. However, I started to panic when Alakazam revealed Trick instead meaning that my Blissey was crippled just like in a Gen 4 OU battle and locked into Toxic. This was extremely bad because I'm locked into a status move and this Pokemon only knows Psychic which means that I can't switch Heracross into this Pokemon. After missing a couple of Disables, Alakazam decides to go for Psychic and Blissey eventually falls to them since Alakazam managed to get two Sp.Def drops on her.
Last mon is Heracross who comes after Blissey and revenge kills Alakazam with HP Bug (God bless Jolly). Last mon was Regirock which left a big OOF.
248 Atk Choice Band Heracross Hidden Power Bug vs. 255 HP / 0 Def Regirock: 48-57 (25.6 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0+ Atk Regirock Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 44-52 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
Odds don't look bad, do they? I can still win this despite my mistake of locking Blissey into Toxic and being overconfident that I could still Aromatherapy again and Soft-boiled the damage off. As a matter of fact on the first exchange, Regirock missed a Rock Slide which means that I was still on a good position. However, everything went into shit when Heracross missed the 3rd HP Bug. Subsequently, Heracross misses another HP Bug vs Regirock 6 who finishes Heracross off with Rock Slide.
Despite the streak ending on the "luckiest number" I ended up getting haxxed like if there was no tomorrow on this battle.
The Battle Pike is a really great and fun facility. I think that the theme itself where it is based on luck, means that you don't necessarily need a really strong backbone to be successful on this facility. Blissey definitely is an overpowered cheat code on this facility and Aromatherapy has saved me so many times on battles where Blissey can pull it off. Latios was also fantastic considering that he pretty much one-shots Lucy's whole team whenever I face her.
I really liked using Heracross and what made this team so succesful was the incredibly offensive synergy it has with Latios on Double battles. I actively pursued whispering rooms knowing that it was either a free pass or a Double battle which is the format where this team truly excels. Heracross being capable of dealing a Banded full power Earthquake to both opponents not only allowed it to pick up KOs that Latios narrowly missed but it also destroyed the Pokemon that Latios couldn't handle such as Umbreon and Snorlax. Avoiding the possibility getting into too many Single battles truly allowed this team to shine.
I hold no regrets on the loss despite the outrageous and funny number my streak ended with. I also had a lot of fun playing through the Pike. Unlike Factory or Palace it isn't a frustrating facility to play with and it's easy to pick up. Overall, I do believe that the 777 win streak does show the true quality of this team compared to my previous attempt.
My streak on the Battle Pike officially ended on the 777 cleared rooms benchmark in retail. The lost came on this round as I previously entered two Nostalgia rooms however, the first and 2nd one left me with all my Pokemon paralyzed. The next option was an Aroma of Pokemon room and I chose it thinking that if I can get to a Wild room, there would be no problem since I can heal my whole party. It was a trainer battle against Expert Miranda (Sets 1-4 including Legends 1-6).
She lead with Espeon and with Blissey paralyzed it was a trick match-up since Blissey can get overwhelmed by boosted Psychics and the threat of a paralysis could be too dangerous to play with even if I did swap into. I made the decision of staying and hoping I can grab a CM since I know that the Lum Berry will activate at the end of the turn. Unfortunately Espeon gets a flinch with Bite leaving me at 81 HP, barely at 50%.
255+ SpA Espeon Bite vs. 28 HP / 6 SpD Latios: 71-84 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO Possible damage amounts: (71, 72, 73, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84)
Lum activates, however I am on a more difficult position because I lost a turn and even if I CM, the Espeon will 2HKO Latios anyways. If it has CM, I would need to heal anyways because I can't otherwise use a paralyzed Heracross. I decide to go for Ice Beam and Espeon Bites again leaving Latios exactly at 1 HP. I went for a Thunderbolt this time and Espeon still on red survives and KOs Latios with Bite.
Blissey comes next and Aromatherapys on the turn Espeon surprisingly reveals Wish which means that it never had CM. Next turn, Blissey tanks a Psychic and Blissey finishes it off with Seismic Toss. Next mon is Alakazam. Normally I wouldn't be worried since 3/4 of the sets are easily beaten by her. However, I started to panic when Alakazam revealed Trick instead meaning that my Blissey was crippled just like in a Gen 4 OU battle and locked into Toxic. This was extremely bad because I'm locked into a status move and this Pokemon only knows Psychic which means that I can't switch Heracross into this Pokemon. After missing a couple of Disables, Alakazam decides to go for Psychic and Blissey eventually falls to them since Alakazam managed to get two Sp.Def drops on her.
Last mon is Heracross who comes after Blissey and revenge kills Alakazam with HP Bug (God bless Jolly). Last mon was Regirock which left a big OOF.
248 Atk Choice Band Heracross Hidden Power Bug vs. 255 HP / 0 Def Regirock: 48-57 (25.6 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0+ Atk Regirock Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 44-52 (28.3 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
Odds don't look bad, do they? I can still win this despite my mistake of locking Blissey into Toxic and being overconfident that I could still Aromatherapy again and Soft-boiled the damage off. As a matter of fact on the first exchange, Regirock missed a Rock Slide which means that I was still on a good position. However, everything went into shit when Heracross missed the 3rd HP Bug. Subsequently, Heracross misses another HP Bug vs Regirock 6 who finishes Heracross off with Rock Slide.
Despite the streak ending on the "luckiest number" I ended up getting haxxed like if there was no tomorrow on this battle.
The Battle Pike is a really great and fun facility. I think that the theme itself where it is based on luck, means that you don't necessarily need a really strong backbone to be successful on this facility. Blissey definitely is an overpowered cheat code on this facility and Aromatherapy has saved me so many times on battles where Blissey can pull it off. Latios was also fantastic considering that he pretty much one-shots Lucy's whole team whenever I face her.
I really liked using Heracross and what made this team so succesful was the incredibly offensive synergy it has with Latios on Double battles. I actively pursued whispering rooms knowing that it was either a free pass or a Double battle which is the format where this team truly excels. Heracross being capable of dealing a Banded full power Earthquake to both opponents not only allowed it to pick up KOs that Latios narrowly missed but it also destroyed the Pokemon that Latios couldn't handle such as Umbreon and Snorlax. Avoiding the possibility getting into too many Single battles truly allowed this team to shine.
I hold no regrets on the loss despite the outrageous and funny number my streak ended with. I also had a lot of fun playing through the Pike. Unlike Factory or Palace it isn't a frustrating facility to play with and it's easy to pick up. Overall, I do believe that the 777 win streak does show the true quality of this team compared to my previous attempt.
Amazing streak, well done. I think your loss could have been played better for sure but that doesn't diminish how far you went to get there. Totally agree with you re Pike's quality as a facility; I've been using Heracross too in my current team and it plays excellently in there.
Amazing streak, well done. I think your loss could have been played better for sure but that doesn't diminish how far you went to get there. Totally agree with you re Pike's quality as a facility; I've been using Heracross too in my current team and it plays excellently in there.
To be fair, my only mistake was locking myself into Toxic. I should've picked Seismic Toss on Alakazam. Even with this misplay, I still would've won without the two Hidden Power misses, but that's my only regret. Maybe if Alakazam didn't get more than one SpD drop, I would've been able to survive and Blissey gets some chip damage against Regirock where Heracross comes free next turn and picks the appropriate move. But if Alakazam would've gotten another one, I believe Blissey would've gone down before Zam does and I would've been on the same position.
To be fair, my only mistake was locking myself into Toxic. I should've picked Seismic Toss on Alakazam. Even with this misplay, I still would've won without the two Hidden Power misses, but that's my only regret. Maybe if Alakazam didn't get more than one SpD drop, I would've been able to survive and Blissey gets some chip damage against Regirock where Heracross comes free next turn and picks the appropriate move. But if Alakazam would've gotten another one, I believe Blissey would've gone down before Zam does and I would've been on the same position.
I wonder if had you switched to Blissey immediately, Toxic'd Espeon, and then stalled it out, would that have been wiser...? Even if it's the CM set, Toxic puts it on a timer (Blissey can take Psychics even with a couple of CMs) and you can speed up its demise with Seismic Toss. Or switch Latios back in on a Psychic to get the Lum heal. Just spitballing; I think once you got Choice-locked it was going to be hard to win regardless. There's a lot of variables, if Blissey had been alive once you dropped Zam you could have switched back and sacrificed it to enable Heracross to pick Break Break.
Just reached 70 wins in the Tower with THICK GYARADOS. I'm planning on streaming it at some point. This team was inspired by Adedede's Misdreavus+DD Tar and Actaeon's Grumpig trick.
(* insert Grumpig text from Actaeon)
Out speeds all Metagross sets and very importantly OHKOers and non-Speed invested DDMence as well;
Survives CB Shadow Ball from all Metagross, and there with also Meteor Mash and stuff like Quick Claw Double-Edge from Ursaring.
* 252+ Atk Regirock Rock Slide vs. 212 HP / 204 Def Grumpig: 66-78 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Edit: Just pulled a trick on Regirock+ skillswap on Lead Regirock. Absolutely beautiful.
Latias is the second member of the trio. It's Kommo-O's Latias, with one small change in speed (mine has a 31 speed iv). Latias performs the crippler role and does a fantastic job.
Ideas for Cripplers: Steelix, Zapdos, Espeon, Jolteon, currently trying out Ninetales.
Gyarados is the sweeper on this team. Regarding Gyarados's set, here's the explanation.
56 hp to reach 177 hp (16+1 leftovers number)
Maximum attack (needs near max already anyways for damage calcs)
+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Hidden Power Flying vs. 170 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 180-212 (102.2 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Hidden Power Flying vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 211-249 (102.9 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 96-113 (55.8 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Hidden Power Flying vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 145-171 (87.8 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
3. 8 speed to out speed the neutral base 100s at +1
4. Dumped the rest in defense (to limit struggle damage and easily set up on a tormented/tricked foe)
This Gyarados is meant to set up to +6. As such, attack and phys def are the most important stats. Speed isn't necessary as t-wave support and DD will allow you to be faster than everything.
Playstyle: trick turn 1, if foe is locked into stat up move (double team, SD, CM) or Earthquake, switch in Gyarados immediately and set up. Otherwise, debuff first with Latias.
Threatlist (will be updated as more threats appear)
QC Fissure/ Rhydon on turn 1
Zapdos (all sets have a good chance to live a +6 hit)
Sticky hold pokemon (Swalot and Muk, which also has explosion)
Heracross (switch into Gyarados for intimidate and then Latias on a -1). Hope it doesn't crit as you charm.
Stalling out dragon claw on choice locked Latias/Latios. Potentially dangerous.
Choice locked shadow ball/megahorn users
Choice locked DE users (possible to die quickly to recoil)
Turn 1 miss with trick.
Edit: Definite discussion between Mence and Gyara. Mence has higher speed and attack, which is real nice. However, there are more bright powder/focus band users that screw over a full set up Mence than Gyarados. In particular, you are guaranteed to run into one on the Anabel round (Latios), which Gyarados can easily handle.
Here's the list of losses I've had with the trick team and it's variations.
Lost it with the Latias streak (even tried sub over t-wave) @ 123.
Lost at 99 to Focus Band Blastoise when using Mence.
Lost before 70 because trick missed on Bright powder Mixed Tauros (which packed t-bolt and surf)
Lost to Muk exploding on Gyarados.
Final Loss at 173 to Lead Aero, Mixed Flygon (crits a dragon-claw while setting up) & Double edge Moltres.
From experience, water types that carry ice moves will always use it on Mence. On the other hand, electric types often spam t-wave, even when t-bolt is super effective on Gyarados.
I wonder if had you switched to Blissey immediately, Toxic'd Espeon, and then stalled it out, would that have been wiser...? Even if it's the CM set, Toxic puts it on a timer (Blissey can take Psychics even with a couple of CMs) and you can speed up its demise with Seismic Toss. Or switch Latios back in on a Psychic to get the Lum heal. Just spitballing; I think once you got Choice-locked it was going to be hard to win regardless. There's a lot of variables, if Blissey had been alive once you dropped Zam you could have switched back and sacrificed it to enable Heracross to pick Break Break.
Unfortunately, I did not knew which Espeon set I was facing. All of them have Bite. Espeon 2 has Rest and Chesto, so it would've been bad if it was that set. It all came down to me not knowing the set until I saw moves that identified them. Miranda can pull any of the sets.
Well I've decided to port my save from retail to emulator for the Battle Frontier. I'm just too impatient. But I'm enjoying playing much more now.
The Battle Tower was giving me trouble before because I restricted myself to teams that didn't require a lot of setup. I won battles faster but the AI could end my streak just as quickly. Looking through some of the teams for new ideas, pokology's team of an encore Walrein / Latios / Donphan caught my eye. I liked their idea for an encore-based Shuckle / Latias / Metagross team and tried it out with genned Pokémon for some unofficial prototyping. I liked where the team ended up and wanted some feedback before I gather the Pokémon for real.
Shuckle @ Leftovers (Calm)
Encore / Toxic / Protect / Mud Slap
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
I use encore as the first move and go from there. Toxic and protect are for evasion spam and mud slap is there for minor support (also for taunts). They are male so that encore'd attracts give Latias a free setup. Latias and Metagross cover all of Shuckle's weaknesses and Shuckle hangs around to deal with OHKO-users. Overall I like their function but think the EVs need some work.
Latias @ Lum Berry (Modest)
Dragon Claw / Calm Mind / Recover / Substitute
EVs: 36 Def / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
IVs: Perfect (Didn't gen this one - used R/S roamer glitch)
I love this gal. I chose her over Latios She's the switch-in for encore'd confusion/status/resisted moves. I'm never sure whether to use calm mind or substitute first but playing it by ear has worked ok. Recover hasn't seen much use but is appreciated. I'm thinking her EVs could be better specialized.
Metagross @ Chesto Berry (Adamant)
Hidden Power (Steel) / Psych Up / Rest / Swagger
EVs: 44 HP/ 252 Atk / 212 Spe
IVs: 30 SpD (for hidden power)
{Credit for EVs goes to Werster's all gold symbols guide}
Metagross is the switch-in for encore'd boost/status-reducing/resisted moves. Clear body is just amazing in this team. Unfortunately I didn't like Metagross's performance - psych up was usually disappointing. I used earthquake for one 7-battle streak then swapped it for swagger so I could get some use from special-boosters.
Overall this team... works. Take 2 made some improvements and is what I'd like advice on
Shuckle @ Sitrus Berry (Calm)
Encore / Toxic / Protect / Mud Slap
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
Leftovers was needed elsewhere and 30hp is nearly a quarter of Shuckle's health anyway. No other changes made.
Latias @ Lum Berry (Modest)
Dragon Claw / Calm Mind / Recover / Substitute
EVs: 36 Def / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
IVs: Perfect (Didn't gen this one - used R/S roamer glitch)
No changes made. Probably needs some.
Registeel @ Leftovers (Adamant)
Hidden Power (Steel) / Curse / Amnesia / Substitute
EVs: 240 HP/ 188 Atk / 70 Def / 12 SpD
IVs: 11 SpA / 30 SpD (for hidden power)
{Credit to Kommo-o's team for the EVs/IVs}
Registeel replaces Metagross here. I liked the steel typing and liked clear body so here we are. Dropping the psychic typing is nice. You feel the limits of their base 75 attack but the boosts make them a nigh-unkillable monster.
Would love feedback and suggestions. I'm not married to any of the Pokémon but I appreciate the novelty Shuckle brings.
Well I've decided to port my save from retail to emulator for the Battle Frontier. I'm just too impatient. But I'm enjoying playing much more now.
The Battle Tower was giving me trouble before because I restricted myself to teams that didn't require a lot of setup. I won battles faster but the AI could end my streak just as quickly. Looking through some of the teams for new ideas, pokology's team of an encore Walrein / Latios / Donphan caught my eye. I liked their idea for an encore-based Shuckle / Latias / Metagross team and tried it out with genned Pokémon for some unofficial prototyping. I liked where the team ended up and wanted some feedback before I gather the Pokémon for real.
Shuckle @ Leftovers (Calm)
Encore / Toxic / Protect / Mud Slap
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
I use encore as the first move and go from there. Toxic and protect are for evasion spam and mud slap is there for minor support (also for taunts). They are male so that encore'd attracts give Latias a free setup. Latias and Metagross cover all of Shuckle's weaknesses and Shuckle hangs around to deal with OHKO-users. Overall I like their function but think the EVs need some work.
Latias @ Lum Berry (Modest)
Dragon Claw / Calm Mind / Recover / Substitute
EVs: 36 Def / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
IVs: Perfect (Didn't gen this one - used R/S roamer glitch)
I love this gal. I chose her over Latios She's the switch-in for encore'd confusion/status/resisted moves. I'm never sure whether to use calm mind or substitute first but playing it by ear has worked ok. Recover hasn't seen much use but is appreciated. I'm thinking her EVs could be better specialized.
Metagross @ Chesto Berry (Adamant)
Hidden Power (Steel) / Psych Up / Rest / Swagger
EVs: 44 HP/ 252 Atk / 212 Spe
IVs: 30 SpD (for hidden power)
{Credit for EVs goes to Werster's all gold symbols guide}
Metagross is the switch-in for encore'd boost/status-reducing/resisted moves. Clear body is just amazing in this team. Unfortunately I didn't like Metagross's performance - psych up was usually disappointing. I used earthquake for one 7-battle streak then swapped it for swagger so I could get some use from special-boosters.
Overall this team... works. Take 2 made some improvements and is what I'd like advice on
Shuckle @ Sitrus Berry (Calm)
Encore / Toxic / Protect / Mud Slap
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
Leftovers was needed elsewhere and 30hp is nearly a quarter of Shuckle's health anyway. No other changes made.
Latias @ Lum Berry (Modest)
Dragon Claw / Calm Mind / Recover / Substitute
EVs: 36 Def / 252 SpA / 220 Spe
IVs: Perfect (Didn't gen this one - used R/S roamer glitch)
No changes made. Probably needs some.
Registeel @ Leftovers (Adamant)
Hidden Power (Steel) / Curse / Amnesia / Substitute
EVs: 240 HP/ 188 Atk / 70 Def / 12 SpD
IVs: 11 SpA / 30 SpD (for hidden power)
{Credit to Kommo-o's team for the EVs/IVs}
Registeel replaces Metagross here. I liked the steel typing and liked clear body so here we are. Dropping the psychic typing is nice. You feel the limits of their base 75 attack but the boosts make them a nigh-unkillable monster.
Would love feedback and suggestions. I'm not married to any of the Pokémon but I appreciate the novelty Shuckle brings.
Oh boy, I do have some ideas about this one. First of all, I'm really happy someone wants to try and build a "Shuckle-mascotte" team. When building Mono Rock, I tried to fit Shuckle on a number of teams and while Encore/(Mud-Slap/Flash) are pretty much given on any set, I think Toxic and Protect can be replaced in some cases.
I never really liked setting up with only Encore, because sometimes you want to switch out which costs a turn, and other times the Encore wears off too quickly before you accumulated enough boosts to prevent your Substitute from breaking. So I think it's essential to capitalize on just one free turn to start with. Good Surf, Meteor Mash and Rock Slide switchins / follow ups are essential too of course, and Registeel/Latias have magnificent defensive synergy.
One other interesting move Shuckle gets is Sweet Scent. I once tried a Sweet Scent / Mud-Slap / Encore set, and if followed by a (then 97.5%-accurate) Sleep Powder abuser, this thing can wreak some havoc if it doesn't get crit on turn 1. If you get two Sweet Scents off, the Sleep Powder hit is already guaranteed. Sitrus Berry and Lum Berry are interchangeable and both good/needed in different scenarios. An interesting Pokemon to follow up with is Jumpluff, who then outstalls the opponent with SubTect @ Leftovers, Sleep Powder and a move such as Encore, Flash/Double Team or even Leech Seed, so they are forced to use Struggle. The problem with this setup is facing Clear Body Pokemon, Metagross in particular. Quick Claw is a nuisance as well: too bad Shuckle doesn't learn Thief. So ideally, your final sweeper should be able to setup on them. Slower Sleep Powder abusers than Jumpluff are perfectly viable for this too, but they would then need Rock Tomb support as well from Shuckle, and Shuckle is less bulky than we'd wish.
For the Jumpluff strategy to work better, item removal is essential. Shuckle can try using Swagger to get rid of Lum Berries, but then the Chesto Berries are still annoying. Another thing you could try is use Toxic and see if they Rest themselves if it's Chesto Berry.
Another strategy, even better IMO, is to make Jumpluff itself capable of sweeping with Sleep Powder / Substitute / Leech Seed / Double Team, and it has a very good chance to sweep through the opposing team by just stalling, while the probability of this sequence being interrupted is diminished by having +6 Evasion. I can say from experience with the Mono Grass team this is a pretty terrifying sweeper on its own, but of course it needs support to beat Grass-types, and prevent Rest/Recover users from draining too much PP (although it can usually get through ONE Recover user and then a remaning Pokemon if that doesn't have Rest/Recover too). Slowking/Slowbro are scary as well.
On Mono Grass, I solved these problems with Breloom to an extent, but without the Monotype restriction you can do much better, for example with a Thief or Knock Off user to get rid of Quick Claws as well. It has to answer Metagross, be able to switch into Grass-types and as many Quick Claw abusers as possible, and preferably have some defensive synergy with Jumpluff too. I'll leave that up to you, and won't say Skarmory :)
Here's some info on Sitrus Shuckle with the aid of a program I wrote to simulate the probabilities of avoiding a 2HKO through Sitrus, factoring in misses and critical hits as well by having one million simulations. Note that the Showdown or Battle Tree damage calculators don't take all these factors, and Sitrus is implemented incorrectly for gen 3. Here's a set that more or less equalizes defenses with Defense stats that actually contribute something (due to its absurdly high basestats, Shuckle has large gaps in useful stats):
Shuckle @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SpD
Calm Nature (+SpD, -SpA)
- Sweet Scent
- Mud-Slap
- Encore / Protect / Toxic / Swagger / Rock Tomb - Encore / Protect / Toxic / Swagger / Rock Tomb
Move
1HKO
2HKO
3HKO
4HKO
5HKO
6HKO
252+ Starmie Surf
0.062
0.060
0.878
-
-
-
252+ Rhydon RS
0.053
0.130
0.600
0.176
0.034
0.006
170+ Metagross MM
0.053
0.685
0.204
0.047
0.009
0.002
Of course, the "beyond 6HKO" probabilities are non-zero with less-than-perfect Accuracy, but they correspond to unrealistically long miss streaks. The bulk of the probability lies in 3HKO or more as you see in the case of Starmie and Rhydon. Metagross 2HKOs just by hitting twice; it's simply too overwhelming to overcome with Sitrus Berry. You can play with lowering HP to increase Sitrus Berry's effect (against all general rules of EV-ing there are, but that's what Sitrus Berry makes you do), but in these efforts I haven't found a better spread in general. The only thing it can achieve is increase the odds against a specific move.
Note that while the chances against Rhydon and Metagross are slim, Shuckle should simply switch out of these anyway, which is why I really like Skarmory on a Shuckle team; it's a Sturdy party. Against Starmie, it's really useful to be able to Sweet Scent, then Toxic to eat the Lum Berry. Of course it will switch out when Jumpluff uses Sleep Powder (if it has Natural Cure), but that gives Jumpluff exactly the free turn it needs as well. If it turns out Starmie has no Lum Berry, that means it has no Ice Beam OR no Thunderbolt, in which case either Jumpluff or Skarmory outlasts it.
Shuckle (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SpD
Calm Nature (+SpD, -SpA)
- Sweet Scent
- Mud-Slap
- Encore
- Toxic
Toxic for the reason explained, but also handy when in a pinch. This Shuckle is very helpful when stalling Seeded opponents out of Recover or Rest PP, so Jumpluff can save its PP and re-setup before they faint.
Always survives two non-crit Surfs from Slowbro/King. Also pretty tanky in general, can safely Rest + Whirlwind out Metagross after the switchin, even the Thunderpunch variant. Aerial Ace beats Grass-types except boosting Cradily, whose Leftovers you could steal.
Here's a glorious match where Jumpluff outstalls two Grass-types including LEFTOVERS CRADILY because I guessed wrong about Lapras having Quick Claw. I stole its Lum Berry once it revealed Thunderbolt. I also made a terrifying missclick, allowing Jumpluff to get hit by a Sludge Bomb. All-in-all, a must see.
Argh! Just lost at battle 55 in the Arena with the Lati Sandwich team to ChestoRest + Double Team Metagross. It took down my entire team thanks to multiple Double Team misses alongside Rest which allowed it to win Skill + Body in judging. This just reminded me how brutal the Arena can be sometimes. (don't mean to count this as a streak)
Here's some info on Sitrus Shuckle with the aid of a program I wrote to simulate the probabilities of avoiding a 2HKO through Sitrus, factoring in misses and critical hits as well by having one million simulations. Note that the Showdown or Battle Tree damage calculators don't take all these factors, and Sitrus is implemented incorrectly for gen 3. Here's a set that more or less equalizes defenses with Defense stats that actually contribute something (due to its absurdly high basestats, Shuckle has large gaps in useful stats):
View attachment 320899 Shuckle @ Sitrus Berry Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SpD
Calm Nature (+SpD, -SpA)
- Sweet Scent
- Mud-Slap
- Encore / Protect / Toxic / Swagger / Rock Tomb - Encore / Protect / Toxic / Swagger / Rock Tomb
Move
1HKO
2HKO
3HKO
4HKO
5HKO
6HKO
252+ Starmie Surf
0.062
0.060
0.878
-
-
-
252+ Rhydon RS
0.053
0.130
0.600
0.176
0.034
0.006
170+ Metagross MM
0.053
0.685
0.204
0.047
0.009
0.002
Of course, the "beyond 6HKO" probabilities are non-zero with less-than-perfect Accuracy, but they correspond to unrealistically long miss streaks. The bulk of the probability lies in 3HKO or more as you see in the case of Starmie and Rhydon. Metagross 2HKOs just by hitting twice; it's simply too overwhelming to overcome with Sitrus Berry. You can play with lowering HP to increase Sitrus Berry's effect (against all general rules of EV-ing there are, but that's what Sitrus Berry makes you do), but in these efforts I haven't found a better spread in general. The only thing it can achieve is increase the odds against a specific move.
Note that while the chances against Rhydon and Metagross are slim, Shuckle should simply switch out of these anyway, which is why I really like Skarmory on a Shuckle team; it's a Sturdy party. Against Starmie, it's really useful to be able to Sweet Scent, then Toxic to eat the Lum Berry. Of course it will switch out when Jumpluff uses Sleep Powder (if it has Natural Cure), but that gives Jumpluff exactly the free turn it needs as well. If it turns out Starmie has no Lum Berry, that means it has no Ice Beam OR no Thunderbolt, in which case either Jumpluff or Skarmory outlasts it.
Shuckle (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SpD
Calm Nature (+SpD, -SpA)
- Sweet Scent
- Mud-Slap
- Encore
- Toxic
Toxic for the reason explained, but also handy when in a pinch. This Shuckle is very helpful when stalling Seeded opponents out of Recover or Rest PP, so Jumpluff can save its PP and re-setup before they faint.
Always survives two non-crit Surfs from Slowbro/King. Also pretty tanky in general, can safely Rest + Whirlwind out Metagross after the switchin, even the Thunderpunch variant. Aerial Ace beats Grass-types except boosting Cradily, whose Leftovers you could steal.
Here's a glorious match where Jumpluff outstalls two Grass-types including LEFTOVERS CRADILY because I guessed wrong about Lapras having Quick Claw. I stole its Lum Berry once it revealed Thunderbolt. I also made a terrifying missclick, allowing Jumpluff to get hit by a Sludge Bomb. All-in-all, a must see.
I adore this team build but don't think I have the experience to pull it off lol. You weren't kidding about Jumpluff being a monster sweeper after setting up! The opponent held items trip me up for now but I really want to revisit it with more game sense. Using so many underdog pokemon is crazy fun.
I adore this team build but don't think I have the experience to pull it off lol. You weren't kidding about Jumpluff being a monster sweeper after setting up! The opponent held items trip me up for now but I really want to revisit it with more game sense. Using so many underdog pokemon is crazy fun.
Yeah, you need a table of sets/held items when playing this team. I also make a lot of mistakes, sometimes you just build a team with a lot of potential, but it's quite difficult to make the optimal choices every time. It's a fun team to learn playing.
I adore this team build but don't think I have the experience to pull it off lol. You weren't kidding about Jumpluff being a monster sweeper after setting up! The opponent held items trip me up for now but I really want to revisit it with more game sense. Using so many underdog pokemon is crazy fun.
Here's some info on Sitrus Shuckle with the aid of a program I wrote to simulate the probabilities of avoiding a 2HKO through Sitrus, factoring in misses and critical hits as well by having one million simulations.
That program seems fantastic. You would be a great person to make or work on damage calculators. Have you contacted anyone to discuss adding this functionality to them? It would be amazing.
Argh! Just lost at battle 55 in the Arena with the Lati Sandwich team to ChestoRest + Double Team Metagross. It took down my entire team thanks to multiple Double Team misses alongside Rest which allowed it to win Skill + Body in judging. This just reminded me how brutal the Arena can be sometimes. (don't mean to count this as a streak)
I remember that Metagross too, if you don't have SE attacks, it's over. I also lost around battle 50 against a Metagross that exploded on my Latias and gave the cpu the win, despite being its last Pokemon as well...
I remember that Metagross too, if you don't have SE attacks, it's over. I also lost around battle 50 against a Metagross that exploded on my Latias and gave the cpu the win, despite being its last Pokemon as well...
That program seems fantanstic. You would be a great person to make or work on damage calculators. Have you contacted anyone to discuss adding this functionality to them? It would be amazing.
I haven't, actually. I wrote my own 1-v-1 simulator in Python (aside from really complicated moves to implement, such as Transform or Bide) that is 100% true to the games, so in situations like this I just pick a "Splash-spam" strategy for one side and a "spam certain Attack" for the other side. That's how the leadprobabilities are determined as well in situations like SubTect spamming against a paralyzed opponent, et cetera.
In this post I'd like to revisit the old Mono Rock team. To keep the mono challenge consistent, I wanted to make a Level 50 Mono Rock (and thus, without Tyranitar) and the Shuckle postings above made me reconsider that team as well. If you'd like to read about how the old team came to be, it's way back on page 12 of this forum!
In fact, the team strategy doesn't change much, but Tyranitar is exchanged for the inferior Kabutops. I really like the new team, however, because it forced me to think even deeper about how to OHKO everything after setup and therefore made me use other filler moves. I think this "RBY Fossil" team has some very delicate substrategies that are worth sharing. Here it is!
Tar-less Mono Rock: The RBY Fossil Team
First of all, the main strategy is: reduce/eliminate hax as much as possible, and setup a Pressure SubTect Aerodactyl with Omastar against as many opponents as possible. Then, the idea is to make use of Kabutops' Battle Armor, granting it Substitutes unbreakable by Struggle, to get into the 200-power Flail range with 3 Swords Dances under its belt and a Salac Berry activated. Wishful thinking, no?
This Shell Armor-sporting lead's strange-looking moveset accomplishes the following:
Firstly, stealing Quick Claws, most importantly from physical threats such as Metagross, Ursaring and Rhydon but against anything that might carry a Quick Claw, really.
Icy Wind is for Jolteon-4 in the first place, because it outspeeds Aerodactyl. But generally it's a useful move to have used beforehand against Pokemon that outspeed Kabutops, since it lets me get into 200 BP Flail range guaranteed after stalling them out.
Spikes is the most recent addition to the team, allowing Kabutops to OHKO 2nd or 3rd Pokemon Steelix, Registeel, Rhydon, and with a good chance, Regirock if I get the time to put them down. Haze, which is illegal with Spikes, nullifies Curse boosts after the stall and also helps greatly vs Dragon Dancers, Double Teamers and Scizor in particular.
The fourth move is up to debate and I'm still not sure which is best.
Tickle is useful against stuff like Ursaring who is stalled with greater probability, and all-attacking move special attackers such as Lapras who get OHKOed easier by Kabutops (Aerodactyl can't stall it out);
Protect steals as many PPs as possible from the likes of 4-atk Latios, Starmie and Lapras and is also a useful scouting move in general, although it may backfire if the opponent sets up;
Surf OHKOs Rhydon just like that and prevents Regirock from setting up with Curse. It also provides more insurance against Aggron, which is the nemesis of this team if it shows up as the 2nd or 3rd Pokemon.
Toxic is as general-purpose as it gets; allows Aerodactyl to outstall and kill almost any non-Rest Pokemon that is not immune.
Rest is an un-tested alternative, but it doesn't look that bad on paper.
Omastar's EVs let it outspeed stuff like Lapras, and bless it with the following defensive calcs:
255+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Omastar: 144-170 (81.3 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
255+ Atk Machamp Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Omastar: 144-170 (81.3 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
255 SpA Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 212 SpD Omastar: 149-176 (84.1 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The reason these calcs are BOTH possible is that I freed Omastar of having to outspeed 255 Spe Marowak and use Thief + Surf like in the old team, since Aerodactyl now handles it.
Note that the Bold Nature can be swapped for Calm if you don't need the extra defensive bulk, but I think it's pretty useful if you want to keep Omastar and use it to put down Spikes after the opponent got outstalled by Aerodactyl. Using Calm can guarantee surviving the same defensive calcs as above with 84 Speed, but that is not a useful Speed tier.
The infamous used-to-be SubTect Resttalk staller is back, but now ditched the notorious Sleep Talk in favor of Earthquake after a lot of testing with Torment, Whirlwind, Dragonbreath, Flamethrower, Fire Blast and yes, even Supersonic.
Being able to drain at least 30 attacking PP before even using Rest is insane, especially because it doesn't even need Speed control against Quick Claw-less Pokemon that are not Jolteon-4. In fact, it pretty much hands me the win against most opponents that only have 2 attacking moves, for example.
172 HP EVs brings it to 177, a perfect Leftovers number suited for Aerodactyl. 84 Defense makes its Substitute (easily) survive Modest Gengar's Shadow Ball, which seems like a joke but Gengar is actually a problem otherwise since it has too much PP to keep attacking with. The Defense EVs generally help the Substitute survive weak not-very-effective moves. For example, Dodrio has only 43.8% chance to break my Substitute with Drill Peck or Tri Attack, so at some point it won't break and I easily outstall it (after potentially outstalling Double-Edge as well, but Dodrio is Tickle bait too for this).
Rest is a really useful move to outstall the remaining, usually not-threatening PP the opponent has left after the stallfest, and also lets Aerodactyl to leave the field at near max HP if deemed necessary.
First I had Whirlwind over EQ to get rid of terrible opponents, but the Pokemon I used it against were usually (>0 Atk) Metagross, Scizor and Double Teamers like Machamp. It paired nicely with Spikes as well, of course. Since Kabutops is completely walled by Aggron even at +6, I ultimately went for Earthquake as a finisher, and it works decently against the other Pokemon as well given Aerodactyl's decent uninvested Attack stat:
4 Atk Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 255 HP / 0 Def Aggron: 98-116 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 170 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 64-76 (36.3 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 255 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 40-48 (22.5 - 27.1%) -- 45.9% chance to 4HKO (don't believe this, doesn't take into account crits)
So Aggron is finished off after being hit by Kabutops at +6. Against Scizor, the combination of Omastar and Aerodactyl usually either outstalls it or straight out beats it, unless it uses Baton Pass. That's where Whirlwind was certainly glorious, but in the end I think EQ outweighs it, since it's also a pinch finishing move against remanining Flail/HP[Rock] survivors in general, not only Aggron. After Scizor uses Agility (twice), if Aerodactyl it outsped it can STILL stall 30 PP using slow-subbing. Haze Omastar was always useful as well in these scenarios.
Very unique moveset, because it actually gets to +6/+1 behind a Substitute without fearing a critical hit Struggle in the process. Once that is accomplished, you're certainly not out of the woods yet:
Aggron (Aggron-1 [451])
HP Rock
40.1 - 47.4%
guaranteed 3HKO
Aggron (Aggron-2 [547])
HP Rock
40.1 - 47.4%
guaranteed 3HKO
Aggron (Aggron-3 [643])
HP Rock
40.1 - 47.4%
guaranteed 3HKO
Aggron (Aggron-4 [739])
HP Rock
40.1 - 47.4%
guaranteed 3HKO
Aggron (Aggron-Boss [Noland Silver†])
HP Rock
48.9 - 57.9%
10.2% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
Aggron (Aggron-Boss [Noland Gold†])
HP Rock
48.9 - 57.9%
10.2% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
Lairon (Lairon-1 [216])
HP Rock
53.2 - 62.8%
guaranteed 2HKO
Lairon (Lairon-2 [321])
HP Rock
53.2 - 62.8%
1.2% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
Steelix (Steelix-Boss [Lucy Gold])
Flail
67.5 - 79.6%
guaranteed 2HKO
Regirock (Regirock-1 [763])
HP Rock
69.5 - 82.3%
guaranteed 2HKO
Regirock (Regirock-2 [774])
HP Rock
69.5 - 82.3%
guaranteed 2HKO
Regirock (Regirock-3 [785])
HP Rock
69.5 - 82.3%
guaranteed 2HKO
Regirock (Regirock-5 [837])
HP Rock
69.5 - 82.3%
guaranteed 2HKO
Regirock (Regirock-6 [838])
HP Rock
69.5 - 82.3%
guaranteed 2HKO
Registeel (Registeel-4 [798])
Flail
73.2 - 86.3%
guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Regirock (Regirock-4 [796])
HP Rock
73.8 - 87.5%
guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Regirock (Regirock-Boss [Brandon Silver])
HP Rock
74.7 - 88.5%
guaranteed 2HKO
Aron (Aron-1 [123])
HP Rock
75.7 - 89.1%
guaranteed 2HKO
Registeel (Registeel-3 [787])
Flail
80.1 - 94.8%
guaranteed 2HKO
Registeel (Registeel-5 [841])
Flail
80.1 - 94.8%
guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Registeel (Registeel-6 [842])
Flail
80.1 - 94.8%
guaranteed 2HKO
Steelix (Steelix-1 [434])
Flail
82 - 96.6%
guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
Steelix (Steelix-2 [530])
Flail
82 - 96.6%
guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Steelix (Steelix-3 [626])
Flail
82 - 96.6%
guaranteed 2HKO
Steelix (Steelix-4 [722])
Flail
82 - 96.6%
guaranteed 2HKO
Registeel (Registeel-1 [765])
Flail
85 - 100.5%
6.3% chance to OHKO
Registeel (Registeel-2 [776])
Flail
90.3 - 106.8%
43.8% chance to OHKO
Rhydon (Rhydon-3 [596])
Flail
91 - 107.5%
50% chance to OHKO
Rhydon (Rhydon-4 [692])
Flail
91 - 107.5%
50% chance to OHKO
Registeel (Registeel-Boss [Brandon Silver])
Flail
91.3 - 108%
50% chance to OHKO
Relicanth (Relicanth-2 [365])
HP Rock
92.2 - 108.6%
56.3% chance to OHKO
Skarmory (Skarmory-Boss [Noland Silver†])
HP Rock
94.7 - 111.6%
68.8% chance to OHKO
Skarmory (Skarmory-Boss [Noland Gold†])
HP Rock
94.7 - 111.6%
68.8% chance to OHKO
Metagross (Metagross-Boss [Tucker Gold])
Flail
95.7 - 112.8%
75% chance to OHKO
Rhydon (Rhydon-1 [404])
Flail
96 - 113.4%
75% chance to OHKO
Tyranitar (Tyranitar-3 [863])
HP Rock
96.4 - 113.7%
81.3% chance to OHKO
Tyranitar (Tyranitar-5 [865])
HP Rock
96.4 - 113.7%
81.3% chance to OHKO
Tyranitar (Tyranitar-6 [866])
HP Rock
96.4 - 113.7%
81.3% chance to OHKO
Tyranitar (Tyranitar-8 [868])
HP Rock
96.4 - 113.7%
81.3% chance to OHKO
Tyranitar (Tyranitar-10 [870])
HP Rock
96.4 - 113.7%
81.3% chance to OHKO
Golem (Golem-2 [499])
Flail
96.7 - 113.9%
81.3% chance to OHKO
Relicanth (Relicanth-1 [260])
HP Rock
97.4 - 114.7%
81.3% chance to OHKO
Note that this list contains some boss Pokemon and Tyranitar that you don't see anyway. But look at Spikes! With three layers, only Regirock and Aggron remain as possible survivors. Regirock can only break the Substitute, but Aggron is really a problem, hence EQ as a filler on Aerodactyl.
Kabutops' EVs might need some explanation: this is the cheapest way to prevent Substitute from breaking against 200 or less Attack opponents, such as Rhydon, Ursaring and Machamp. It also makes it very likely that you get a "good HP" against lower Attack opponents that outspeed you, or when switching in Kabutops directly. You try to get as close as possible, but not less, than 1 HP, 35 HP, 69 HP or 103 HP before taking control with your Substitute. Here's a table with Flail power for this particular Kabutops (assuming you get less than 25% of course)
HP
Power
1 up to and including 5
200
6 up to and including 11
150
12 up to and including 25
100
more
80
So there's good margin here: once you get between 35 and 39, between 69 and 73 or between 103 and 107 by tanking a Struggle without a Substitute up, you're perfect.
I did try many other move combinations of the pool Ancientpower, HP[Ground], HP[Rock], Mud Shot, Brick Break, HP[Ghost] and even Double-Edge, but this set seems to work the best and makes the most use of the Spikes.
I figured that if I ran Ice Ball, I would only need one roll to get several turns of attacking out. Unfortunately, the AI preferences means that it rarely used Ice Ball over Surf (i.e. only double-weak or both ice-weak and resisting water), and I really needed Surf. Set up to always do something, even if repeated yawns/protects isn't that useful. I also originally ran Hail over Protect, mostly because I conceived this set before I was reminded that Ice Body doesn't exist in gen 3. It worked better than it probably should have when I just slapped whatever behind it, so I made it more sensible and it pulled through.
Originally around for an arena team. Really didn't have a good idea for the item here. Adamant's at least pretty good below half, though this was still the most frustrating member of the team.
Halite (Flygon) (F) @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 15 Def / 19 SpA / 29 SpD
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
Clone of my preexisting flygon, as I wasn't sure about deleting an egg move. About the most self-explanatory set you can have.
Streak ended against Ludicolo-4, mostly because I didn't have time to play it out.
This is a technical post again, for the interested reader. I decided to use my program to make a probability estimation in a more complicated situation than what I already did for n-HKO lead probabilities (factoring in crits and other random effects of moves, such as misses, status inflictions and stat raises/drops, taking into account items such as Sitrus/Lum Berry and Leftovers as well).
Lately I've had many discussions EV-ing the following Pokemon, informally called FatMence:
Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 52 HP / a lot of Atk / a lot of Def / maybe a tiny bit of SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
IVs: either perfect or 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 30 Spe for HP[Flying]
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Aerial Ace / Hidden Power [Flying]
- Earthquake
It is most commonly seen on cripple + setup teams and sometimes on a Trick team (such as Trick + Grudge Ninetales) because it makes Substitutes that are unbreakable by Struggle after Intimidate, and it sweeps nearly the entire pool of Frontier opponents after setting up to +6/+6.
In fact, the only non-Frontier Brain Pokemon that can survive its HP[Flying] after setup are Skarmory, Lunatone, Solrock, Zapdos, Slaking, Umbreon, Regice, Cloyster, Suicune, Aerodactyl, Lapras, Articuno and maybe Dewgong if you use Aerial Ace and less-than-max Attack. The Pokemon in red can be dangerous if your Substitute got broken before. Or they might break your Substitute and open up Salamence to Quick Claw / Brightpowder / Focus Band hax after that, for example. Or you simply might get two of them in succession during a bad matchup.
The most logical, straightforward thing to do is simply use Hidden Power [Flying] with 252+ Attack, since that indeed maximizes all the rolls and even eliminates Pokemon from the list above:
Skarmory (Skarmory-Boss [Noland Silver†])
HP Flying
52.9 - 62.7%
0.4% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
Skarmory (Skarmory-Boss [Noland Gold†])
HP Flying
52.9 - 62.7%
0.4% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
Skarmory (Skarmory-3 [579])
HP Flying
58.7 - 69.1%
guaranteed 2HKO
Skarmory (Skarmory-4 [675])
HP Flying
58.7 - 69.1%
guaranteed 2HKO
Skarmory (Skarmory-1 [387])
HP Flying
62.7 - 73.9%
guaranteed 2HKO
Skarmory (Skarmory-2 [483])
HP Flying
62.7 - 73.9%
guaranteed 2HKO
Lunatone (Lunatone-1 [223])
HP Flying
77.4 - 91.5%
guaranteed 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery
Lunatone (Lunatone-2 [328])
HP Flying
77.4 - 91.5%
guaranteed 2HKO
Solrock (Solrock-1 [224])
HP Flying
86.4 - 102.2%
18.8% chance to OHKO
Solrock (Solrock-2 [329])
HP Flying
86.4 - 102.2%
18.8% chance to OHKO
Zapdos (Zapdos-1 [758])
HP Flying
92.7 - 109.6%
56.3% chance to OHKO
Zapdos (Zapdos-2 [769])
HP Flying
92.7 - 109.6%
56.3% chance to OHKO
Zapdos (Zapdos-3 [780])
HP Flying
92.7 - 109.6%
56.3% chance to OHKO
Zapdos (Zapdos-4 [791])
HP Flying
92.7 - 109.6%
56.3% chance to OHKO
Zapdos (Zapdos-5 [873])
HP Flying
92.7 - 109.6%
56.3% chance to OHKO
Zapdos (Zapdos-6 [874])
HP Flying
92.7 - 109.6%
56.3% chance to OHKO
Shuckle (Shuckle-Boss [Lucy Silver])
HP Flying
92.9 - 109.4%
56.3% chance to OHKO
Slaking (Slaking-1 [468])
HP Flying
93.4 - 110.1%
62.5% chance to OHKO
Slaking (Slaking-2 [564])
HP Flying
95.1 - 112%
68.8% chance to OHKO
Slaking (Slaking-3 [660])
HP Flying
95.1 - 112%
68.8% chance to OHKO
But of course, some extra EVs in Defense are very welcome while setting up, and you might want to try Aerial Ace to prevent Brightpowder hax against many opponents in general. When using HP[Flying], general good marks are 202 Attack for the 50% against Zapdos, or even as low as 199 with 43.8% to OHKO Zapdos and still OHKO Aerodactyl, bulky Regice and Suicune.
But in this post I would like to give Skarmory-3 [579], the one with Curse, Fly, Toxic and Rest, some attention. If you played this kind of Salamence (or Gyarados for that matter) before, you're probably familiar with the risk of not 2HKOing (because it uses Curse after the first hit) and letting it setup because of Chesto Rest. If this Skarmory pulls through, it will counter you with +6 Fly eventually, as you won't be able to outstall all of its 15 PP by using Substitute usually.
Of course, if you critically hit somewhere, you win automatically, but in general it can be a very lengthy process, and there's always a chance you won't get it before Skarmory starts using attacks of its own. All-in-all, I kept wondering what the eventual winning probability is for Salamence, so I used my program to simulate this situation 10.000 times for different Attack stats and both for Aerial Ace and Hidden Power [Flying]. I didn't want to simulate a million battles, because I this PC can only do around 60~70 battles per second as some of them take long. With these settings I needed around 3 minutes per case. How little Attack can you afford to still have really good chance of beating it?
In these simulations, I assumed the following, which I hope reflect the actual game's strategy but to my feeling it does:
Skarmory uses Curse if its HP is greater than or equal to half its HP (86) and Rest otherwise (first time it consumes Chesto Berry ofc);
Salamence is at +6 Attack and only spams its Flying-type STAB;
If Skarmory faints, Salamence wins (duh);
If Skarmory gets to +6/+6/-6, is not sleeping, and has more than 65% HP left, Skarmory 'wins'.
The last assumption is to prevent having to think about Fly mechanics, but reflects the situation where Skarmory will start using Fly, so Salamence won't be able to use many Hidden Powers anymore in fear of Toxic. While not a losing scenario per se, it sure looks bad for Salamence. This should be taken into account when looking at the final results. Note that the 2HKO from the start is present with decent Attack stat, but the probability of not critting diminishes as well.
The results
In the following table, I rounded the four-decimal ratio estimators to two places a bit arbitrarily, but since it's still a Monte Carlo simulation I decided to go for a lazy cutoff to reduce "arbitrary garbage info" as much as possible. Since it's a "Bernoulli trial" estimator of sorts, it's hard to build a good confidence interval, and even rounding to full percentages leaves room for small error, although not too likely.
Attack stat
EVs required
AA win probability
HP[Flying] win probability
205
252
0.74
1.00 (not guaranteed)
204
244
0.74
1.00 (not guaranteed)
203
236
0.72
0.99
202
228
0.72
0.98
201
220
0.71
0.98
200
212
0.71
0.98
199
204
0.70
0.96
194 (Gyarados)
252
-
0.87
Note that some Atk stats are redundant, such as 201 Attack, since it doesn't change the range against Skarmory and only changes the range of Aerial Ace against Zapdos, which is a 2HKO anyway.
Conclusion
Use Sharp Beak if you want the guaranteed win, haha. On a more serious note, use this for your own team!
Of course, I could have made these calculations exact simply by analysing the damage range and crits after. But I wanted to illustrate the power of simulations and use the scenario as a practice case.
If you want to see more of these kind of calculations, please let me know.
