Gen III Battle Frontier Discussion and Records

  • Personally I feel this wouldn't be a race on who can reach the top but rather a reward for the people who are the best on timing their button presses.
I agree 100%. When I was thinking about the best ways to go beyond my RNG'd 50-streak it entirely came down to consistently hitting the button at the right time. It's just a different game at that point. I'd love to see someone test the limits of RNG'd streaks (maybe in an emulator) but that sort of thing doesn't belong on the same leaderboard.

Thanks for the new clarifications as they all sound great!
 
I haven't updated the thread with some of my current progress on my Battle Pike team mostly since I have been managing the thread. But I finally got some time to write another update and announce that the Pike Bugs have now reached 574 floors on Lv.50 retail. I'm really happy with the result since I did set myself as a goal to get into 500 floors cleared with the updated team. I have to say that now that the Wild Rooms will no longer spawn Electrode on my runs, it will be interesting to see on whether I can use Breloom as a more reliable fodder to get Heracross poisoned on purpose, because bloody hell, Milotic is ruthless if it gets a crit (it actually happened on one of my recorded runs but wasn't streak-ending since I managed to get through the round).

Also I wanted to share a few observations:
  • The best Pokemon to use as fodder to get Heracross statused is Dusclops without a doubt. The chance of having Will-o-Wisp (the most ideal status) and Toxic makes it easy to exploit Guts. Heracross also doesn't takes a lot of damage from Shadow Punch which basically makes it easy to exploit Dusclops.
  • Milotic is possibly the worst Pokemon to get a status purposefully. While Heracross has a higher Special Defense than physical Defense, crits can still destroy you. Unfortunately, from rooms 281-560, I had to rely on Milotic to get Heracross poisoned and charge forward. Burn is no longer a possibility since Dusclops gets replaced by Electrode and you want to always run from the Electric Ball. Still I saw it as a necessary evil despite the insane amount of time I had to spend on getting Heracross Soft-boiled if it took Surf damage instead or pull off some Aromatherapies if it got hit by Hypnosis.
  • Pick Nostalgia rooms always if you managed to get Heracross poisoned or if your full team is afflicted by status. I would still pick it if I had a team member dead. It sucks so hard to get trolled by this event, but you can definitely rely on healing the team members that were afflicted by status.
  • If you have Heracross burned or poisoned, picking Trainer rooms become a worthy chance to use. The non-healing AI battles use Pokemon with lower IVs and a Guts boosted Heracross demolishes these Trainer battles pretty quickly. Don't feel reserved on holding back and grab a couple of CM boosts or unleash the BUGBEAST whenever you have the chance. These rooms are my preferred choice in case the lady announces it on the 13th room.
  • Don't pick Double battles if Heracross is dead. As tempting as it may sound to use Blissey, you never know if a physical sweeper can show up. Blissey will take too long to take out something and this team needs the power Heracross can provide in Doubles. When you are in Doubles, don't let Heracross die. Swap him out even if you have to sack Blissey on the process because Latios and Heracross can still carry the team forward.

I honestly feel that the secret of this team's success so far has been avoiding the possibilities of Single battles as much as possible. Don't get me wrong, I still pick Aroma rooms but I tend not to overuse them since otherwise, NPC battles with healing are Battle Tower battles and the team doesn't really has a strong defensive backbone that can cover all weaknesses. Despite this, I feel so happy on making it this far and not seeing that fucking Aggron 1 who ended my previous two runs before reaching this benchmark.


I also uploaded a battle sample after exporting my retail save file into an emulator and recorded a small part of the streak from room 504-546. My focus is still to complete my streak on retail so I won't present a lot of video samples unless it is requested on the Battle Tower Discord server. Overall I'm very happy with the result and hopefully this gives you some insight on how I make my decisions when picking a room.

 
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Took another run at Battle Factory Doubles hoping to unseat iSoNkei from the top spot, but only made it to 52 which is still a nice boost from my last attempt. Never used to like Battle Factory but I'm finding I like the Doubles mode in particular since (as I mentioned in a previous post) 3 team members isn't quite enough for double battles, so it's challenging in a different way from the other facilities. Short summary below.

1614436624057.png


I tried to swap as often as I could in the early rounds. In the first round I started off with Growlithe and Delibird initially (Hustle Aerial Ace pulls a surprising amount of weight) with varying thirds. Round 2 had Gligar and a rotating second because I was never happy with how any of them operated as a partner - Murkrow, Qwilfish, Ivysaur, Marshtomp, Togetic, and Minun - with Elekid as my third team member.

Round 3 was the first one where I felt assured: got a great Croconaw + Zangoose for leads, with Grovyle initially but swapping thirds to up my trade count. Round 4 wasn't a great opening batch, but I chose Aggron1 + Altaria1 and abused the faithful FlyQuake strategy, trading a couple of fliers like Xatu and Charizard into my backup slot.

Opening draft:
Machamp4
Tauros4
Claydol3
Salamence3
Wailord4
Granbull3

Daunting. Faced with a truly crap opening draft, I took Glalie3 & Dugtrio2 as leads and survived long enough to swap them for the far better combination of Starmie2 & Manectric2, which took me through to the end.

Opening draft:
Mr. Mime1
Electabuzz1
Lapras8
Houndoom2
Porygon24
Marowak4

Another non-ideal draft, but I went with Marowak as my lead, Porygon2 as my backup, and Lapras as my second purely so I wouldn't run into it for the next couple of battles. Eventually I encountered an opponent with Charizard3, which proved a great partner to Marowak.

Opening draft:
Metagross8
Kingdra2
Breloom2
Latias3
Clefable1
Vaporeon2

Ironic that I lost at the round with the best opening set. Went with Metagross, Latias, and Vaporeon for more FlyQuake goodness. While Vaporeon proved useful, my first opponent I faced had a Misdreavus, which I switched with Vap hoping to make use of its immunity to Explosion. This proved an error. The trainer I lost to led with Blaziken and Ursaring: Blaziken promptly KOed Metagross with Overheat while Ursaring proceeded to Crunch both Latias and Misdreavus to death.

Annoyed not to do better, but cracking 50 isn't bad for such a niche format.

Thinking of taking another run at the Pike since my old run of 543 has rapidly been eclipsed. Intending to use the same team as before (Starmie/Metagross/Blissey) but swapping Metagross for a Jolly Banded Heracross. That's the next project! Might have another go at the Dome too, but I don't think I can face the Arena or the Pyramid again.

I've mentioned countless times that I've wanted to do a Tower Singles run for a while, but tbh it's doubtful I'll ever get around to it. The other facilities hold more appeal, and I've no hope of cracking the impressive post-1000 streaks others have done. However, I did get quite far with planning a team out, and I thought I would post what I've been mulling over to spark a discussion or to hopefully provide inspiration for other people's attempts.

Cripple+sweep was what I was aiming for, as it's the proven way to win. Trickscarfing is the way to go in later gens, but that's not so easy in Gen 3 due to the limited pool of Tricksters and the only Choice item being the Band which is disastrous on a lot of physical attackers. So crippling must be achieved in other ways.

My first thought for a lead crippler was something I've always found to be a decent mon, but which isn't often used in these types of formats. Amusingly, while I was working on this, everyone started doing the Christmas challenge and it got some much-needed exposure: it's Stantler.

Stantler @ no item (Intimidate)
Thief
Flash
Spite
Thunder Wave
252 HP, 26 Defence, 232 Speed (Timid)

While Stantler's Speed isn't too impressive, 232 Speed EVs get it to 290 which outruns a fair amount of things. Max Speed ties it with a couple of foes but none of them bar Heracross2 are terribly threatening, and it's not worth gambling on a speed tie in any case. Note that using this at level 50 requires maxing Speed, as certain mons (Jolteon2/3 and Aerodactyl3/4 as well as Crobat1) beat it at level 100 while tying with it at level 50, making it more worthwhile to catch them up.

Thief, Thunder Wave and an accuracy-lowering move are all standard, while Intimidate of course is reliably useful as a nerf against physical attackers. However, Spite is the major selling point for me; being able to shut down a foe's moves is much more directly useful than reducing accuracy. It's especially devastating against foes which only have one attacking move, and works well in conjunction with a teammate with Pressure which can then set up with impunity.

However, looking at the Pokemon that learn Spite, I noticed one which another user in this thread had put to rather good use some time before:

Misdreavus @ no item (Levitate)
Thief
Spite
Thunder Wave
Perish Song
252 HP/4 Defence/12 Sp.Defence/240 Speed (Timid)

Misdreavus has a few choice advantages over Stantler: three immunities (not to mention immunity to three out of four of the inevitable OHKO moves) and access to Perish Song, which puts a countdown on Pokemon such as Snorlax and Registeel which often like to boost and which Misdreavus cannot reliably deal with. The EV spread is shamelessly stolen from Actaeon's excellent Ghost mono team, giving it excellent bulk while allowing it to outspeed a large spread of foes. I was intending to go with Stantler as a lead for ages but I'm gravitating more to Misdreavus.


Anyway, what do you all think? All feedback welcome.
 
Hello all!
Longtime lurker here, first-time poster. I'm here to report a retail/cartridge streak on Battle Tower Singles of 174 wins, Open Level (Level 100)
Since my team is all on a cartridge and I get easily frustrated trying to RNG, my Pokemon's IV spreads are sometimes imperfect, and I recognize that some of their stats are simply not good. I will thus do my best to show my EV spreads and target numbers I try to hit. Bear in mind I did this a few weeks back so my memory may be a bit foggy, but I'm happy to answer any questions and hopefully start making some posts on this forum on a regular basis.


Latias.gif
@ Lum Berry
Levitate
Bold Nature
252 HP/enough speed to hit 300/rest in Defense
20/31/27/24/13/28
-Thunder Wave
-Recover
-Mud-Slap/Rain Dance
-Charm

This thing is quite possibly the best crippler I have found in the Tower. Charm stops Curse users in their tracks and is a perfect first-round move when trying to alleviate the damage that fast physical sweepers have on this team before they suffer paralysis. Salamence, Tyranitar, Slaking, Snorlax... the amount of pokemon this thing counters/helps to counter is insane.
On the debate between Mud-Slap vs. Flash, I much prefer Mud-Slap after having used both. I like the 100% accuracy of Mud-Slap, and things immune to Ground are generally not threats to the rest of my team.
Against most opponents, I Thunder Wave turn 1 and proceed to cripple. I take care in not paralyzing anything that may have Water Absorb, as that would be an auto-lose for this team.
EDIT - My updated post gives rationale for why I chose to eliminate Mud-Slap in favor of Rain Dance. In short, it's this team's best defense against Tyranitar. After using Rain Dance turn 1, Tyranitar's threat level is basically zero if I can also pull off a Thunder Wave turn 2, which I've successfully been able to do every time.


Suicune.png
@ Leftovers
Pressure
Bold Nature
224 HP/252 Defense/32 Speed
IVs: 19/18/25/16/29/24
-Protect
-Substitute
-Calm Mind
-Surf

Obtained via Pokemon Colosseum

This set is pretty self-explanatory. Suicune generally heals itself better with the combination of Protect and Substitute than with Rest, especially considering the utility of Torment. At +6, this thing 3HKOs everything in the Frontier (except Ludicolo and Kingdra). Pressure is so useful and really helps in draining the PP of those pesky Water Absorb pokemon - none of them can do much harm to Suicune, and the one that can, Lapras, is easily countered with a combination of swapstalling Suicune and Steelix + Torment.
I chose the 385 HP benchmark for my Suicune because its IV in HP was less than ideal. If that IV was perfect I would have most likely gone for the 401 HP benchmark and cut some EVs from Defense.


Steelix.png
@ Chesto Berry
Sturdy
Calm Nature
252 HP/252 Sp. Defense/ 4 Speed
IVs: 31/21/31/10/31/31
-Protect
-Rest
-Toxic
-Torment

Torment is the single most useful move on this team. It enables Suicune to set up against things that may have moves super effective on it, such as Zapdos or Starmie. Luckily, everything with Water Absorb is killed by Toxic, so anything with the ability can be PP stalled and removed by Toxic after Struggling. This thing really wants Roar, but alas I have no room for it (or on anything else on this team, for that matter).


I'm convinced the sky is the limit for this team, with the exception of one major threat: team-leading Tyranitars. A lead Tyranitar is just asking this team for trouble, and while it is manageable, I have to play really carefully. Tyranitar's issue for this team is that Suicune has no way to recover HP other than Leftovers. Usually, my best move is to Paralyze turn 1 and find out if it's running a physical or special set. Special sets are harder to counter as Latias does not fare well against Crunch or Ice Beam, but Steelix being able to outspeed a paralyzed Tyranitar and use Torment normally makes defeating the team doable. I haven't had any severely close calls, but it is a factor to take into consideration. Luckily, only 1 TTar set runs Flamethrower to my knowledge.

Another potential downfall of this team can occur if Suicune becomes poisoned or burned. Suicune must be mindful of coming in on Fire Punch, Sludge Bomb, and Toxic users because their HP cannot recover at all while burned or poisoned. Suicune reaches 207 speed to outspeed Kingdra and the Articuno set carrying Toxic.

I'm really proud of what I've been able to accomplish with this team! If I need to do anything else to be put on the leaderboard or show proof/explain anything, please let me know.
EDIT - Found the IVs of all my team members in an old file on my computer! I have updated the spreads.


I tragically lost while a bit inebriated to Anabel, of all trainers. I normally have to PP stall her Raikou and failed to correctly count the number of Thunderbolts she had left when switching between my team trying to drain her Thunderbolt and Rest PP, and Suicune was OHKOed. Still a pretty decent run - if I'm not mistaken, one of the highest runs on Towers Singles for Open Level (Level 100). I really like playing Level 100 as opposed to 50 - I know Level 50 really aids my team and would help the streak run longer, but I somehow feel as if it's taking the easy route by eliminating some of the bigger threats in the Frontier.

Battle Tower 174 Streak proof.jpg
 
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Hi guys, I haven't been too active for a while because of some important exams/papers I needed to do in real life. I still tried to read the posts here from time to time and have been really enjoying the inceased activity in the last few weeks, especially all the new users taking on the Gen 3 Frontier :)

I feel like now would be the perfect time to start a team-based challenge like Kommo-o suggested some pages back. A quick overview of what I had in mind (will be fleshed out later and can obviously still change based on your feedback):
  • Teams consisting of three players, one for each generation. Each player will only use Pokemon of his respective generation in the challenge.
  • Some fair way to assign the teams (maybe a draft system?) to get a good mix of newer and more experienced players in each team and make the challenge fair for everyone.
  • To increase team variety, each player gets to choose two Pokemon (probably also in some kind of draft system) that can be used exclusively by him and not by the other teams. The rest is free to use for everyone (in their respective generation).
  • However, I think its a good idea to also restrict what Pokemon are egligible in the first place (since otherwise exclusive rights to something like Latios or Blissey might be too strong). For that reason, I suggest that we only allow Pokemon that are in the UU tier or lower on Smogon (so no Uber, OU or UUBL). After taking a quick glance the list looks pretty balanced to me, but maybe Actaeon with some more experience of using bad mons in the facilities has a better perspective on that.
  • Facility-wise, if the motivation can be kept going for long enough, I would love to go trough all facilities (except Factory of course) with the same drafted teams. So for example in Week 1 and 2 everyone plays Arena, Week 3 and 4 Pike, 5 and 6 Dome etc.
  • The scores of a team for a facility will be the sum of the two best streaks achieved by two different players of their team. Example: In Arena, Player 1 of Team 1 gets a highest streak of 50, Player 2 of Team 1 gets 38 and Player 3 gets 45. The score of Team 1 for Arena will be 50+45=95. The team with the highest score then gets 10 points, and the other teams get a fraction of that proportional to how close their score is to the highest score.
  • The reasoning for only counting the two best out of three streaks is to give some more room for inactivity.
  • In the end, the point for all facilities get added together to determine the winning team.
Let me know what you think and if you'd be interested in partaking in the challenge!
 
Hi guys, I haven't been too active for a while because of some important exams/papers I needed to do in real life. I still tried to read the posts here from time to time and have been really enjoying the inceased activity in the last few weeks, especially all the new users taking on the Gen 3 Frontier :)

I feel like now would be the perfect time to start a team-based challenge like Kommo-o suggested some pages back. A quick overview of what I had in mind (will be fleshed out later and can obviously still change based on your feedback):
  • Teams consisting of three players, one for each generation. Each player will only use Pokemon of his respective generation in the challenge.
  • Some fair way to assign the teams (maybe a draft system?) to get a good mix of newer and more experienced players in each team and make the challenge fair for everyone.
  • To increase team variety, each player gets to choose two Pokemon (probably also in some kind of draft system) that can be used exclusively by him and not by the other teams. The rest is free to use for everyone (in their respective generation).
  • However, I think its a good idea to also restrict what Pokemon are egligible in the first place (since otherwise exclusive rights to something like Latios or Blissey might be too strong). For that reason, I suggest that we only allow Pokemon that are in the UU tier or lower on Smogon (so no Uber, OU or UUBL). After taking a quick glance the list looks pretty balanced to me, but maybe Actaeon with some more experience of using bad mons in the facilities has a better perspective on that.
  • Facility-wise, if the motivation can be kept going for long enough, I would love to go trough all facilities (except Factory of course) with the same drafted teams. So for example in Week 1 and 2 everyone plays Arena, Week 3 and 4 Pike, 5 and 6 Dome etc.
  • The scores of a team for a facility will be the sum of the two best streaks achieved by two different players of their team. Example: In Arena, Player 1 of Team 1 gets a highest streak of 50, Player 2 of Team 1 gets 38 and Player 3 gets 45. The score of Team 1 for Arena will be 50+45=95. The team with the highest score then gets 10 points, and the other teams get a fraction of that proportional to how close their score is to the highest score.
  • The reasoning for only counting the two best out of three streaks is to give some more room for inactivity.
  • In the end, the point for all facilities get added together to determine the winning team.
Let me know what you think and if you'd be interested in partaking in the challenge!
Count me in! I love the idea and I think it will be interesting to see how we can carry forward. On my case I would like to add some thoughts so we can properly discuss and see how we can perform the challenge:

  • If balancing is a huge concern, maybe we can randomize the drafts? I think that randomizing the picks can lead to fun results without being over-centralized on teambuilding around Pokemon like Blissey or Suicune. You can end up with fun results like Suicune / Espeon / Meganium or Nidoking / Snorlax / Alakazam.
  • If I have to think on a banlist, I think Lati@s should go. Hoenn has some of the better picks between all three generations and you can even clear a facility using Pokemon from Hoenn only (such as Werster's speedrun team)
  • I can help providing rewards for the winning team since I run the Bank of Hoenn server to encourage participation
Just a couple of ideas since I would like to hear from the rest! Hopefully there will be enough people interested to make it happen!
 
I found something really interesting while I was doing some Pike runs. Of course, I was on the middle of continuing my streak and I noticed something really interesting and extremely unusual that caught my eye recently. As some might have noticed, when you enter into Double Battle rooms, you'll end up facing two random NPC trainers which are supposed to pull out a Pokemon from their respective pools. However, on this particular trainer battle, I ended up facing Thriathlete Samir (Set 1-4 with 8 Lapras sets) and Delilah (Set 1-4 with 8 Gengar sets). Normally, I don't pull out the database sheet in Doubles unless I am unsure of a certain calc. However, I lost my mind when I saw Delilah sending out a Machamp. This was possibly one of the wildest things I've seen... If anything, Delilah could've send out a Gengar or something like that. But how in the world does she sends a Machamp when she has one of the most limited pools in Gen 3?


Delilah pool.jpg

Samir pool.jpg

Machamp 7.jpg
 

atsync

Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon
Might be the same as the phenomenon I noted in the Pyramid here:

In the Pyramid, double battles are presented a multi battles with 2 separate trainers, but this is a ruse. This is because both Pokemon that are sent out for these battles are always pooled from one trainer rather than one set being taken from both trainers. I'm fairly certain that the trainer pool used is based off the first trainer that approaches you, and who is positioned on the very right side of the screen, but this may need testing. For example, if you enter a battle with Pokemon Ranger (F) Dorine as the first trainer (right side) and Battle Girl Kay as the second one (left side), both Pokemon that are sent out will be taken from Dorine's pool. This makes these battles nothing more that regular double battles with the first trainer rather than true multi battles. Be aware of this when determining sets.
Delilah might not have Machamp7 but Samir does, so you basically had a double battle with Samir rather than an actual multi battle.
 
Did a couple runs at the Arena. I'm playing mostly for fun, so my pokemon's natures and IVs are suboptimal. I'll probably be trying the Lati Sandwich team next. (that is once I finish a playthrough of XD for the Selfdestruct move tutor) Hopefully I can at least break 60 KOs next time.

Team 1 (57 KOs)
:rs/latias: :rs/heracross: :rs/starmie:
This was the same team that first got me the Gold Symbol and I didn't want to waste the ongoing streak of 56 before trying other teams lol.

:rs/latias:
Latias @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Mild
EVs: 6 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
IVs: 0/4/28/18/25/12
Calm Mind
Psychic
Dragon Claw
Thunderbolt

This is just my personal experience, but I think I have lost more in the Arena than all other facilities combined in my journey to get all 7 Gold symbols. (probably at least 20-30 times with various different teams playing on and off over several years)

Eventually, what made the difference for me is when I saw Werster use Calm Mind Latios and realized how good a setup move can be in this facility. (I used to use Ice Beam over Calm Mind on this Latias) Getting in even 1 Calm Mind versus an easy matchup gives you such a big advantage for the rest of the fight. Calm Mind also turns Wobbuffet from a deadly threat into a free win.

:rs/heracross:
Heracross @ Salac Berry
Ability: Guts
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 6 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe
IVs: 2/9/21/19/5/31
Megahorn
Brick Break
Earthquake
Rock Slide

Heracross has good matchups against a great deal of Latias's weaknesses including powerful Normal types (e.g. Ursaring, Granbull), special walls (e.g. Snorlax, Blissey, Regice), Dark types (e.g. Tyranitar, Umbreon), Ice types and Steel types. It also OHKOs Wobbuffet with Megahorn which is nice.

:rs/starmie:
Starmie @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Hasty
EVs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
IVs: 13/21/27/26/23/23
Surf
Psychic
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam

Starmie has the best coverage of any special attacker and nicely covers the Fire and Flying types that can outspeed and KO Heracross.

How I Lost
I was up against a trainer who led with Suicune 4 (Brightpowder + max speed). Latias's misses a Thunderbolt and goes down to 2 Ice Beams, but leaves Suicune with under 50% HP.
Then Suicune wins the speed tie twice in a row vs my Heracross and KOs it with 2 Surfs, while my Heracross misses Megahorn.
Starmie finishes off Suicune and is up against Slowbro. I use Thunderbolt 3 times, while Slowbro uses 2 Calm Minds + Yawn. I win the judging but next turn my Starmie is going to fall asleep.
The final pokemon is Entei. Entei survives Surf by a sliver of health, uses Double Team, and Starmie falls asleep. Then it Rests and Double Teams and the judging ends in a draw, meaning I lose.

Mystic Water would have saved the run and is a better item, but Petaya Berry was the item I had on my Starmie originally. Kinda unfortunate I got haxed into a loss so quickly. I was hoping to have at least a little bit of fun with my old team.

Threats
Scizor and Scyther can potentially sweep this team with Silver Wind and Aerial Ace. Psychic types like Espeon, Gardevoir, Starmie, and Alakazam are also really dangerous since they destroy Heracross and are evenly matched vs Latias and Starmie. These are some pretty gaping weaknesses so this team is definitely not suited for a long streak, but good enough to reach Gold with some luck and effort.


Team 2 (59 KOs)
:rs/gengar: :rs/metagross: :rs/latios:
Gengar + Metagross is something I’ve tried in the past in my attempt to get the Gold Symbol. It seems good in theory, but I remember not liking Gengar’s 1v1 potential and often being forced to trade, compared to a pokemon like CM Latias which is more likely to gain a decisive advantage right off the bat.

However, after seeing the success that a few players have had with Gengar, I decided to give it another try. This time around Gengar actually managed to win a good number of 1v1s so I found it to be really good. I guess matchup luck is what most of this facility boils down to anyway. I was surprised to make it to 59 on my first attempt.

:rs/gengar:
Gengar @ Cheri Berry
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Modest
IVs: 21/21-22/13/31/19/23
Thunderbolt
Ice Punch
Fire Punch
Destiny Bond

Destiny Bond is really nice, but sometimes it was annoying when the AI would use moves like Confuse Ray or Double Team and only attack on the 3rd round. Confuse Ray is especially annoying since it means you only have a 50% chance of getting the Destiny Bond off at all.

:rs/metagross:
Metagross @ Lum Berry
Ability: Clear Body
Nature: Impish
EVs: 252 HP, 236 Atk, 12 Def, 8 Spe
IVs: 30/31/4/5-6/25/16
Meteor Mash
Earthquake
Shadow Ball
Explosion

The extra bulk from my EV spread did come in handy in certain scenarios, but I would say that running a lot of speed for a faster Explosion is definitely the way to go.

:rs/latios:
Latios @ Twisted Spoon
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Mild
EVs: 6 HP, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
IVs: 16/31/7/16/18/21
Calm Mind
Psychic
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam

Decided to run Ice Beam over Dragon Claw for a better matchup vs Ground types that could beat Metagross.

How I Lost
I lost due to a hasty and inexcusable misplay. Latios was up 1v1 vs Gardevoir. Without even thinking or damage calcing, I click Ice Beam which is a 3HKO, while Gardevoir’s Ice Punch is a 2HKO. Had I Calm Minded, Ice Beam would have 2HKOed and Ice Punch would become a 3HKO. A little frustrating since I would have much preferred to lose due to hax than an egregious misplay like that.

Threats
Fire types are a huge threat to this team since Gengar usually can’t 1v1 them and they outspeed and incinerate Metagross. I was pretty lucky in not encountering many Fire types throughout the run.
 

Attachments

Might be the same as the phenomenon I noted in the Pyramid here:



Delilah might not have Machamp7 but Samir does, so you basically had a double battle with Samir rather than an actual multi battle.
Yep, Multi Battles on Emerald are a complete hoax lol. Pretty sure Delilah stole that Machamp from Samir. It seems that you end up facing the pool of trainers from the first NPC and the game doesn't picks anything from the 2nd NPC.
 
Lately I've been talking a bunch with Adedede, after he asked my advice on his very cool Misdreavus Trick team. I couldn't help comparing it to "Mono Psychic Trick" in a lot of ways; all Trick teams need to have a solid plan against Metagross, STAB Double-Edge users and Muk at least.
Eventually, we improved the Grumpig set together and concluded Torment is better than Flash in general, especially if you have Protect on the second Pokemon. Since I was so happy with Espeon on Mono Psychic, I started wondering what would be its best replacement if the monotype restriction would be released.

This first had me thinking about the obvious Jolteon with the same moveset, since it outspeeds Crobat (a very dangerous lead for the Mono Psychic team since I can't use Trick in fear of CB Shadow Ball outspeeding the whole team). This still wouldn't really solve the Double-Edge problem. I didn't want to go Misdreavus, mainly since Charm is so much better than Growl against a load of physical Pokemon, especially Metagross.

Then came the wild idea of using a Dugtrio with minimized HP in order to reduce recoil damage from Double-Edge for my opponent. And so I came to the following team, which might very well be one of the best Trick teams until now in Level 50:

The mole Trick
1614542839644.png

Grumpig (F) @ Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 212 HP / 204 Def / 92 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SpA
- Trick
- Icy Wind
- Torment
- Skill Swap

This is the best Grumpig set in my opinion. Here's what it accomplishes:
  • Outspeeds all Metagross sets and very importantly OHKOers and non-Speed invested DDMence as well;
  • Survives CB Shadow Ball from all Metagross, and therewith also Meteor Mash and stuff like Quick Claw Double-Edge from Ursaring. The previous set was even bulkier on the physical side, to reduce Rhydon's 43.8% chance of OHKOing me with QC Megahorn to 37.5%, but the extra special bulk is also very welcome in general. If you want, it's perfectly possible to run 164 HP and 252 Def in order to reduce Megahorn's chances of OHKOing to 31.3%, and this also reduces even more Double-Edge damage, but this makes Grumpig a little more vulnerable to critical hit special moves;
  • It gives Double-Edgers a maximum of 60 HP in damage; depending on whether they OHKO or not, it might be 59 or even 58 due to rounding.
The strategy: Trick against nearly everything and Skill Swap Clear Body Pokemon and Pokemon with a nasty ability on touch, like Static, Flame Body, Poison Point and Effect Spore. Of course, it's a nice time saver against Shadow Tag as well. Icy Wind is cool against stuff that would outspeed my relatively slow Latias, so I can anticipate hits with Substitute easier. This explains minimized SpA because I don't want to damage their lead. Torment is good whenever I don't want my opponent to use their Attack, such as against Silver Wind and Ancientpower.

1614543392459.png

Dugtrio @ Leftovers
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 44 Atk / 252 Def / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
IVs: 5 HP / 29 Atk / 29 SpA / 30 SpD
- Protect
- Substitute
- Charm
- Earthquake

The big surprise! The ability doesn't matter that much, but at least this ensures they won't oddly switch out. Note that Levitate Pokemon can be Skill Swapped in order to get this effect as well. It stalls dangerous moves like Crunch, Shadow Ball, Meteor Mash, Megahorn and Double-Edge, then Charms the opponent and usually lives a non-crit Struggle. If possible, this Dugtrio keeps health relatively high and switches to Latias instead of sacking itself.

So what's the catch? Well, this Dugtrio has an astonishingly low HP of 97, which is a two-digit perfect Leftovers number. This causes Double-Edge to only deal 8 HP in recoil damage. Together with the 60 HP they lose to Grumpig (at most), this leaves them with enough health for Latias to setup against their -2 Attack (or less) Struggle. That explains the 5 HP IV's. Surprisingly, Dugtrio lives through many moves after Charm when they don't crit, for example a Rhydon Earthquake when it should QC OHKO Grumpig in some manner. It also survives a +0 Struggle after outstalling Meteor Mash from Metagross, making sure it can use two Charms if it gets too many Attack boosts.

The first move I tried to use is Sand-Attack like the Espeon, but I realized Sand-Attack is not even that important if I have a more dependable strategy to prevent losing to Double-Edge. So instead, I gave it FISSURE to deal with last-poke Evasion-spamming Registeel, which my Latias doesn't reliably handle. It's viable to use Earthquake (without reduced Attack and putting the SpD EVs into Attack as well), since that finishes off Metagross if it haxes my Latias. Sadly, Earthquake probably won't win against Registeel-4 since it doesn't even 2HKO.

Note that there's only a (7/10)^8 = 0.058 chance of missing ALL Fissures against Registeel, and Dugtrio will easily get the opportunity to use them because of all its Thunder Wave and Double Team PP it will have to spam.


I stroke through everything before I realized Fissure + Charm is illegal on level 50, and then changed it to Earthquake after all. It does finish off Metagross reliably, and 3HKOes Registeel-4 at least. Another option is Sand-Attack, so Latias' Substitute is probably at full health before sweeping.

Huge thanks to Kommo-o for searching the best legal IVs possible on Gales Dugtrio for this particular set!

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Latias (F) @ Dragon Fang
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Def / 180 Spe
Bold Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Recover
- Dragon Claw

Same Latias: it's extremely bulky and its Substitutes don't break to any CB Struggle without additional Attack boosts. That means it can start sweeping with 100% health and with a Substitute up against Charmed opponents. It doesn't outspeed everything, but its Substitutes take Starmie Ice Beams for example at +6. It also doesn't OHKO everything by a long shot, but in turn it easily survives QC Shadow Balls and Meteor Mashes from the likes of Snorlax and Metagross. I hope this tells you enough about Latias' bulk:

170+ Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 76 HP / 252+ Def Latias on a critical hit: 142-168 (86 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

255 Atk Metagross Shadow Ball vs. 76 HP / 252+ Def Latias on a critical hit: 149-176 (90.3 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Dragon Fang makes a lot of OHKOes more probable, but is most important against Agility Scizor, which it doesn't 2HKO without Dragon Fang. I always think of this item as giving Latias a +Def, +SpA nature at the same time.

There are some scary opponents, such as Calm Quick Claw OHKO Lapras, but it needs to be pretty lucky and if I have Grumpig and/or Dugtrio left the chances it gets to demolish my team are greatly minimized.

The team currently has a clean 252 streak in Battle Tower. I'm curious to hear your thoughts/concerns as usual, and I'm very happy to share the first serious team using a Dugtrio as far as I know!
 
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Currently on 224 rooms myself. I will catch you up, and I will beat you. I swear it by the old gods and the new.
As long as I get to keep 2nd place! Anyways, I tried CB Steelix in the Pike. I actually lost @69 on my first run lol. It's not that Steelix isn't good, but Metagross does it's job better. I'm probably going to try another run with something else in it's spot.

Regarding Steelix, an offensive one is also not as bulky as I'm used to. The calm one can take hits in a pinch, but this one is noticeably less bulky. This is a bit of a problem when Steelix is very slow and makes double battles a little dangerous.

Strategy for this team is the same as last time with metagross. Take the nostaliga/wild rooms. Avoid battles as much as you can.

https://pokepast.es/7685f0d0aa685673
 

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Hi guys, I haven't been too active for a while because of some important exams/papers I needed to do in real life. I still tried to read the posts here from time to time and have been really enjoying the inceased activity in the last few weeks, especially all the new users taking on the Gen 3 Frontier :)

I feel like now would be the perfect time to start a team-based challenge like Kommo-o suggested some pages back. A quick overview of what I had in mind (will be fleshed out later and can obviously still change based on your feedback):
  • Teams consisting of three players, one for each generation. Each player will only use Pokemon of his respective generation in the challenge.
  • Some fair way to assign the teams (maybe a draft system?) to get a good mix of newer and more experienced players in each team and make the challenge fair for everyone.
  • To increase team variety, each player gets to choose two Pokemon (probably also in some kind of draft system) that can be used exclusively by him and not by the other teams. The rest is free to use for everyone (in their respective generation).
  • However, I think its a good idea to also restrict what Pokemon are egligible in the first place (since otherwise exclusive rights to something like Latios or Blissey might be too strong). For that reason, I suggest that we only allow Pokemon that are in the UU tier or lower on Smogon (so no Uber, OU or UUBL). After taking a quick glance the list looks pretty balanced to me, but maybe Actaeon with some more experience of using bad mons in the facilities has a better perspective on that.
  • Facility-wise, if the motivation can be kept going for long enough, I would love to go trough all facilities (except Factory of course) with the same drafted teams. So for example in Week 1 and 2 everyone plays Arena, Week 3 and 4 Pike, 5 and 6 Dome etc.
  • The scores of a team for a facility will be the sum of the two best streaks achieved by two different players of their team. Example: In Arena, Player 1 of Team 1 gets a highest streak of 50, Player 2 of Team 1 gets 38 and Player 3 gets 45. The score of Team 1 for Arena will be 50+45=95. The team with the highest score then gets 10 points, and the other teams get a fraction of that proportional to how close their score is to the highest score.
  • The reasoning for only counting the two best out of three streaks is to give some more room for inactivity.
  • In the end, the point for all facilities get added together to determine the winning team.
Let me know what you think and if you'd be interested in partaking in the challenge!
Cool! Yeah I would join. While the idea of generation-restriction is cool, I think it might be a little too restricting as to teambuilding options, and maybe also too repetitive. We could use other "equivalence relations" on the set of Pokemon, such as color, EVs given on beating them as wilds, height, weight, Exp. Class, catch rate, et cetera, varying between the challenges.
 
Just reached 70 wins in the Tower with THICK GYARADOS. I'm planning on streaming it at some point. This team was inspired by Adedede's Misdreavus+DD Tar and Actaeon's Grumpig trick.

(* insert Grumpig text from Actaeon)
  • Out speeds all Metagross sets and very importantly OHKOers and non-Speed invested DDMence as well;
  • Survives CB Shadow Ball from all Metagross, and there with also Meteor Mash and stuff like Quick Claw Double-Edge from Ursaring.

* 252+ Atk Regirock Rock Slide vs. 212 HP / 204 Def Grumpig: 66-78 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Edit:
Just pulled a trick on Regirock+ skillswap on Lead Regirock. Absolutely beautiful.

Latias is the second member of the trio. It's Kommo-O's Latias, with one small change in speed (mine has a 31 speed iv). Latias performs the crippler role and does a fantastic job.

Ideas for Cripplers: Steelix, Zapdos, Espeon, Jolteon, currently trying out Ninetales.

Gyarados is the sweeper on this team. Regarding Gyarados's set, here's the explanation.
  1. 56 hp to reach 177 hp (16+1 leftovers number)
  2. Maximum attack (needs near max already anyways for damage calcs)
+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Hidden Power Flying vs. 170 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 180-212 (102.2 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Hidden Power Flying vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 211-249 (102.9 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 96-113 (55.8 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Gyarados Hidden Power Flying vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 145-171 (87.8 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

3. 8 speed to out speed the neutral base 100s at +1
4. Dumped the rest in defense (to limit struggle damage and easily set up on a tormented/tricked foe)

This Gyarados is meant to set up to +6. As such, attack and phys def are the most important stats. Speed isn't necessary as t-wave support and DD will allow you to be faster than everything.

Playstyle: trick turn 1, if foe is locked into stat up move (double team, SD, CM) or Earthquake, switch in Gyarados immediately and set up. Otherwise, debuff first with Latias.

Latias Cripple set.
https://pokepast.es/0422ecf469415aef

Threatlist (will be updated as more threats appear)
QC Fissure/ Rhydon on turn 1
Zapdos (all sets have a good chance to live a +6 hit)
Sticky hold pokemon (Swalot and Muk, which also has explosion)
Heracross (switch into Gyarados for intimidate and then Latias on a -1). Hope it doesn't crit as you charm.
Stalling out dragon claw on choice locked Latias/Latios. Potentially dangerous.
Choice locked shadow ball/megahorn users
Choice locked DE users (possible to die quickly to recoil)
Turn 1 miss with trick.

Edit: Definite discussion between Mence and Gyara. Mence has higher speed and attack, which is real nice. However, there are more bright powder/focus band users that screw over a full set up Mence than Gyarados. In particular, you are guaranteed to run into one on the Anabel round (Latios), which Gyarados can easily handle.

https://pokepast.es/dd178c6413df7b9a

Thick Salamence
https://pokepast.es/ffe94d9526f68ed1
 

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Thanks for the feedback, Actaeon and Kommo-o. I tried to explain some of my choices better below, but if you (or someone else) doesn't agree with it or has some other suggestions for the ruleset I'm of course happy to listen and consider them.

Cool! Yeah I would join. While the idea of generation-restriction is cool, I think it might be a little too restricting as to teambuilding options, and maybe also too repetitive. We could use other "equivalence relations" on the set of Pokemon, such as color, EVs given on beating them as wilds, height, weight, Exp. Class, catch rate, et cetera, varying between the challenges.
I definitely see the benefit of changing the restrictions for each challenge concering the option variety. The reason I think it is still a good idea to stick with the same "equivalence relation" (be it the generation or any of the other things you mentioned) for the whole challenge, is that people who want to RNG their Pokemon in-game don't have to start RNGing a new pool of Pokemon every two weeks but only have to do that once.

Count me in! I love the idea and I think it will be interesting to see how we can carry forward. On my case I would like to add some thoughts so we can properly discuss and see how we can perform the challenge:

  • If balancing is a huge concern, maybe we can randomize the drafts? I think that randomizing the picks can lead to fun results without being over-centralized on teambuilding around Pokemon like Blissey or Suicune. You can end up with fun results like Suicune / Espeon / Meganium or Nidoking / Snorlax / Alakazam.
  • If I have to think on a banlist, I think Lati@s should go. Hoenn has some of the better picks between all three generations and you can even clear a facility using Pokemon from Hoenn only (such as Werster's speedrun team)
  • I can help providing rewards for the winning team since I run the Bank of Hoenn server to encourage participation
Just a couple of ideas since I would like to hear from the rest! Hopefully there will be enough people interested to make it happen!
The idea with the rewards sounds awesome!

I know that the PVP UU banlist I suggested doesn't neccecssarily correspond to the strength of the Pokemon in the Battle Facilities. The thing is, if we try to create our own banlist we will probably end up with a lot of discussion that I'd rather avoid (I for example would include much more than just Lati@s, like Blissey, Chansey, Suicune, Metagross, Salamence and Slaking) that ends up creating another issue that we first need to solve before we can start with the challenge. Also, I kind of fear that a randomized list could lead to balance issues. The advantage of going with a list of rather weak Pokemon is that there will probably be no "endless" streaks, which will make the whole ordeal a lot less time-consuming for everyone.
 
Thanks for the feedback, Actaeon and Kommo-o. I tried to explain some of my choices better below, but if you (or someone else) doesn't agree with it or has some other suggestions for the ruleset I'm of course happy to listen and consider them.



I definitely see the benefit of changing the restrictions for each challenge concering the option variety. The reason I think it is still a good idea to stick with the same "equivalence relation" (be it the generation or any of the other things you mentioned) for the whole challenge, is that people who want to RNG their Pokemon in-game don't have to start RNGing a new pool of Pokemon every two weeks but only have to do that once.



The idea with the rewards sounds awesome!

I know that the PVP UU banlist I suggested doesn't neccecssarily correspond to the strength of the Pokemon in the Battle Facilities. The thing is, if we try to create our own banlist we will probably end up with a lot of discussion that I'd rather avoid (I for example would include much more than just Lati@s, like Blissey, Chansey, Suicune, Metagross, Salamence and Slaking) that ends up creating another issue that we first need to solve before we can start with the challenge. Also, I kind of fear that a randomized list could lead to balance issues. The advantage of going with a list of rather weak Pokemon is that there will probably be no "endless" streaks, which will make the whole ordeal a lot less time-consuming for everyone.
I already got a funny challenge idea regardless of the rules by the way: Record a 7 trainer (post 49) streak in the Battle Tower. Easy right?

But the player who does it with the least STAT TOTAL (not Basestat total) wins. I think this will deliver some amazing replay videos.

No rng abuse ofc to force endless Brightpowder misses or anything.
 
I also have an idea for a challange. Make some trainer specific teams like: Red's team consisting of let's say Charizard/Blastoise/Venusaur or Ash's team that include Pikachu/Snorlax/Charizard etc and try to beat some facilities. We will first make a list with all the eligible Trainer's teams (which means decide what Pokemon will be in each and every one), then we will rate them and each one of us will use one of those. Each Silver Symbol will give let's say 5 points each Gold 20 and every streak up to X 50 and we will post our results. Trainer's can be chosen from both the Game and the anime.
 
I already got a funny challenge idea regardless of the rules by the way: Record a 7 trainer (post 49) streak in the Battle Tower. Easy right?

But the player who does it with the least STAT TOTAL (not Basestat total) wins. I think this will deliver some amazing replay videos.

No rng abuse ofc to force endless Brightpowder misses or anything.
Why not basestat? That sounds really interesting too, makes you use weaker lower BST mons.

Also maybe some NFE streaks? Might be interesting.
 
I know that the PVP UU banlist I suggested doesn't neccecssarily correspond to the strength of the Pokemon in the Battle Facilities. The thing is, if we try to create our own banlist we will probably end up with a lot of discussion that I'd rather avoid (I for example would include much more than just Lati@s, like Blissey, Chansey, Suicune, Metagross, Salamence and Slaking) that ends up creating another issue that we first need to solve before we can start with the challenge. Also, I kind of fear that a randomized list could lead to balance issues.
You're basically denying Kanto players from using Cloyster and Magneton, two very mediocre Pokemon on Frontier play, from being used on this challenge because they are very good in PvP. As a matter of fact we already had this discussion already and many people (who are not even active anymore in here) left their opinions and I ranked the Pokemon according to the input I had from the community. Considering that there was no additional discussion regarding the tierlist I made, I don't think we'll end up with a lot of discussion even if people wanted to revise and update the tierlist. We can probably just use the tierlist that I created in case you actually wanted to implement a banlist? It's much more accurate as to how these Pokemon perform in Frontier play and while it may not be perfect, it's based on what we do here.

We're limiting Pokemon by regions, right? I don't think there should be any concerns on balancing because you can't partner Latios with Suicune or Blissey with Salamence. There's already a limit that will force players to think on alternatives and see how they can achieve results but without using the typical combinations that are present on leaderboard teams. Just check the leaderboard and see how many teams present with Vaporeon and Milotic achieved in comparison to the teams that used Suicune.

The advantage of going with a list of rather weak Pokemon is that there will probably be no "endless" streaks, which will make the whole ordeal a lot less time-consuming for everyone.
I don't think this would be the case. As a matter of fact, making streaks with NFEs can be harder since they will require multiple attempts. I'm not saying this because I have something against using "UU or NU Pokemon" but mostly because I don't want to be forced to breed new Pokemon every week that I'm really not going to use for later. Personally, I'm against genning and that's a philosophy of mine that I'm not going to change regardless. So basically I would spend a lot of time to RNG, breed and EV train Pokemon only for a single occasion and I'm sure there's plenty of people in here who don't want to hack either (hence why I created the Bank of Hoenn server).

Additionally to this, we're setting a time limit right? Therefore I don't think there will be any "endless" streaks even if they are still active. If players were to present how far their team made it, we would only take the streak number achieved during that timeframe. Additionally, there might be people who might have college or a job in between, so people who actually drafted an +S tier Pokemon in their team are not necessarily guaranteed to make big numbers depending on how much free time they can spare for this competition.
 

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