Gen III Battle Frontier Discussion and Records

Hi! First of all my apologies if I implied that this team was an original concept or thought up by me in it's basic form in any sense. This was seen and inspired by other teams and users I saw on this forum.

When it comes to Latios being modest over Timid - my thinking around the team was really rooted in the idea that Latios does as much damage or mementos everything it can, with the other two being strictly for finishing off the others. This is through things like selfdestruct and like you said having curse on Lax to capitalize on fast special attackers. Reading through your post I'm looking at calcs for the faster PKMN than Latios - I'm not going to act like I have a deep knowledge of every set and there are alot of things here that I didn't even consider, just threats that had team behind them that could beat the other tow that I hadn't run into. Espeon is something that I hadn't really thought about in the lead slot, same as Aerodactyl(2) no doubt would be annoying if the other two beat Lax. Things like Gengar, Starmie, Manectric, Sceptile, and Aerodactyl I never really found to be threats, Latios is a glass cannon on this team and as long as it can take out them out first, HP doesn't matter. Every Gengar is OHKOd, and Gengar(1) is annoying but I never actually lost to one. Every starmie that is bothersome is OHKOd by Tbolt, Manectric is 2HKOd, and Sceptile(4) is OHKOd. I actually didn't even consider making Latios faster as most of the heavy lifting on the team is done by Snorlax. Obviously all of this is to be taken with a grain of salt with the consideration that crits will just take out Latios outright, which happened infrequently and even less on lead.

Same deal with the SpD on Latios, in playing Latios really only died to special attackers, so it just made more sense to me to put SpD, I hadn't done those specific calcs like you presented - and really just played the stats by ear while playing with the team.

I actually had no idea there was defensive benchmarks for Snorlax to survive certain moves. Is it just Magmar and Electabuzz?

I only meant to say that Latias is the weakest member of the team, the other two being so dominant. I'm glad that all of these calcs are being shown to me because the Latias being a member that I constantly was changing around the stats are far from perfect. Latias was always able to OHKO Scizor apart from 4, I never actually got countered by Scizor(1). Same deal with Heracross(2) Latias just never came out against a full health Heracross(2) I guess, don't really have an excuse here understand why it looks bad lol.

Also Latias at lvl 100 30 IV and 180 EV hits 300, I played at open lvl. Sorry if I didn't make that clear - first post.

-The threatlist is just things that were the reasons for losses, and things that can cause similar trouble. Pinsir(2) was something that I lost to in lead or 2nd slot by trying to beat it with Latios instead of hitting Memento.
-Jynx(1) and (4) are very threatening through and through it's just a threat to this team everytime it comes out. Jynx(2) always loses judging and allows Latios to get a hit or a Memento off on whatever comes out next. Jynx(3) also loses to judging after Latios gets the first neutral hit with Tbolt. Jynx is just a threat that sucks to face in Arena with Latis and a slow mon.
-CB user crits happen. I've lost streaks to them I don't really know how to respond to this because yeah CB Ursaring will tear Snorlax up.
-Metagross should have been on the list I agree. Every Metagross is killed by two Tbolts into EQ. That's really all that happened with Metagross in my experience. Alot of these threats that have been outlined are things that take down the team after a crucial crit or similar. I understand and have experienced that crits are going to happen and I have and will continue to lose streaks to poorly timed crits. The same goes for QC and OHKO move users in general. I didn't think to include them in the Threatlist as the just seemed like factors out of my control. I don't know what to do when something gets hit with an OHKO move in general, same goes for Steelix and Aggron. It's frustrating but unavoidable, especially when they carry explosion for Lax. I generally memento on things that kill Latios before it can kill them, to give Lax the best chance possible. This was the emphasis I placed on avoiding bringing out Latias if possible. I do understand that long streaks are prone to bad luck and that's why you mentioned these, though. Again I want to mention that the Latias spread is imperfect and that I can't wait to make adjustments based on all of this information to get more streaks.

As for Submenceisop's reply, I didn't know that Modest wouldn't be optimal as I said above, beating out the 100 speed tier had been working for me. And I don't mean to downplay any of the bulky normal types that you can face. I never lost a streak to blissey, Latios only ever lost to 3/4 both of which Snorlax beats. I also literally never had any issues against opposing Snorlax. Not once. Snorlax with counter always spam that up against your lax allowing you blow up or curse up, and ones with curse always use that 3 times allowing you to do it twice and hitting them to win judging. Please give me your Snorlax spread because I'd love to apply it and try the calcs for myself.


I'm sorry to see that there are lots of doubts about the streak. I am appreciative of all the replies, Kommo-0, Submenceisop, and wtset. I'm going to take all of the feedback and do streaks in an emulator to create some video of high streaks as proof. I'd love some more advice on better spreads because I completely understand the doubt and would love to get more high streaks. I have no issues with not wanting to make official this streak and I want to continue the conversation and hopefully others will try the team too.
I'll be more than happy to see any videos being uploaded considering that some of us expressed their doubts already. Just take into account that if you do plan to edit some of the EV spreads and sets, I will be counting it as a different streak. For the record, I don't mind on whether people use other people's teams or not (FYI I added Maizup's streak using one of my teams as a formal streak in here since I only presented it as a concept originally). Also, if you're playing on Open Level, was Tyranitar taken into account? I would definitely add that Pokemon as a mayor threat. Open Level also opens up more legendary sets (Legendaries set 6-8 and so on...)

I don't want to jump into conclusions at least until I see what you have. Feel free to tag me when it's done and thanks for keeping this civilized. We do appreciate that you didn't took any of this in bad blood and there's no intention from us to cause harm either. As mentioned before, I'll be more than happy to include this team assuming there's real evidence that it can reach more than +100 wins.
 
Streak-wise I don't really think it has as much to do with luck or hax as much as it does just not seeing certain matchups. This team and the Arena in general isn't really designed in such a way that bad luck is what beats you.
While other users (Kommo-o , submenceisop , wtset ) have clearly pointed out some clear tactical issues of the team, I know I'll sound rude but I must admit indeed that the previous statement is completely out of reality.

Due to its format, Arena is one of the most hax-prone facilities, period.
A single turn of miss due to confusion/evasion/status/QC/BP/CH can spell the word end for every streak, especially considering that one cannot even try to avoid hax with some defensive gameplans, once again due to this really punishing format.


A plain-offensive team is not suited for a long streak and we all know it, your team has issues and it can even be ok: I would have definitely liked and trusted a player who claimed a 313 Wins streak in the Arena after some tries, conscious of his luck (because, once again, this is the n°1 aspect one needs to pass 100w in Arena, especially with a sub-optimized team like this).



Well, I honestly think it was way to bold to claim that hax/luck is not an issue in the Arena, especially for an all-out attacking team like that, also claiming that it can (and also had!) always reach(ed) such numbers, like no one has ever tried an haymaker strategy before.
I know this was just a phrase in a post, but this statement is way more suspicious than every EVs calc in my opinion.
 
While other users (Kommo-o , submenceisop , wtset ) have clearly pointed out some clear tactical issues of the team, I know I'll sound rude but I must admit indeed that the previous statement is completely out of reality.

Due to its format, Arena is one of the most hax-prone facilities, period.
A single turn of miss due to confusion/evasion/status/QC/BP/CH can spell the word end for every streak, especially considering that one cannot even try to avoid hax with some defensive gameplans, once again due to this really punishing format.


A plain-offensive team is not suited for a long streak and we all know it, your team has issues and it can even be ok: I would have definitely liked and trusted a player who claimed a 313 Wins streak in the Arena after some tries, conscious of his luck (because, once again, this is the n°1 aspect one needs to pass 100w in Arena, especially with a sub-optimized team like this).



Well, I honestly think it was way to bold to claim that hax/luck is not an issue in the Arena, especially for an all-out attacking team like that, also claiming that it can (and also had!) always reach(ed) such numbers, like no one has ever tried an haymaker strategy before.
I know this was just a phrase in a post, but this statement is way more suspicious than every EVs calc in my opinion.
I only meant to say that unlike a facility that rewards setting up or stalling the opponent like in the Battle Tower, Arena is one that you're far more prone to lose to a team of 3 counters - considering switching is out of the picture.

Really I meant to emphasize the effect that no switching has on gameplay. Hopefully I'll post some video's of sets higher in streaks to make things more official and verifiable.
 
Congrats on the promotion, Kommo! You've come a long way from being the Team Azure guy I once knew you as. That post really opened my eyes to the possibilities and structure of the frontier.

And with an active mod, I don't feel as bad arbitrarily moving up my best Open Level Factory score from 63 to 78. I hope to write a full length strategy guide to the factory someday. It's the most exciting facility and has the best replays imo.

Round 5: Gyarados4 ➡ Latios6, Regirock6, Machamp5 ➡ Lanturn1 ➡ Raikou2
Round 6: Latios8, Registeel6 ➡ Metagross5, Starmie8
Round 7: Gengar6, Tyranitar4, Regirock1
Round 8: Raikou6, Snorlax7 ➡ Salamence5, Swampert3
Round 9: Misdreavus1 ➡ Raikou4, Vaporeon4 ➡ Starmie7, Electabuzz4 ➡ Blissey4
This is a battle I posted previously, but it was during this round and is the first battle after a heavily flawed IV starting draft.
Round 10: Zapdos1, Starmie8, Blissey2
Round 11: Espeon2 ➡ Latias8, Blastoise3 ➡ Suicune5, Snorlax3
Below is a real nail biter during this round!
So I got absolutely wrecked by my starting picks. And I'm not one to complain, but not only are these wimpy Pokemon, but the EV's and movesets themselves suck!
Glalie2 - Max attack and speed with Explosion, Icy wind, endure, body slam
Mr.Mime2 - Leichi Berry, Adamant -with no Special Attack investment, with swagger, psych up, baton pass, psychic.
Hypno1 - Twistedspoon with all elemental punches and hypnosis.
Fearow3 - Max Attack and Speed with Frustration and Drill peck.
Raichu2 - Max Attack and Speed with Endure, Reversal, Thunderbolt and Agility.
Machamp7 - Max HP and Attack with Substitute, Focus Punch, Double Team, and attract.

I thought long and hard before choosing Raichu2, Fearow3, and Glalie2. The synergy lands me one win at Battle 78, and I ditch Boom Glalie for Marowak4. A response to a steel type, which my team desperately needed.. But Battle 79 shot me down hard, as you'll see:
20210221_122021.jpg
 
Direct questions on the internet easily come off as accusatory or hostile, and I say this so you know that isn't my intention :)

Why have other recent Battle Factory records been put on the leaderboard but not my recent record of 42? I hope this isn't just impatience on my part since I know that adopting the thread has put a fair bit of work on Kommo-o's plate and I want to be respectful of that. I can think of many possible reasons and am willing to work with whatever the real one(s) might be.
 
Direct questions on the internet easily come off as accusatory or hostile, and I say this so you know that isn't my intention :)

Why have other recent Battle Factory records been put on the leaderboard but not my recent record of 42? I hope this isn't just impatience on my part since I know that adopting the thread has put a fair bit of work on Kommo-o's plate and I want to be respectful of that. I can think of many possible reasons and am willing to work with whatever the real one(s) might be.
Reason is simply because I'm debating on whether including streaks with RNG'd rentals separate or not... or even if they should be included. It's not as polarizing as Gen 4 because you can't decide what the opponent will carry for the next rounds. However, I do have to recognize that being able to pick frames where you are being presented with the most optimal choice of rentals does give players a huge advantage over those who did not RNG their rental options and had to battle all their way up to the Gold Symbol.

I'm not ignoring your streak on purpose and I know there are some RNG'd streaks posted on the Factory section. I just need more time to decide on how I'll handle RNG'd / non-RNG'd Factory streaks. I want to make this fair for everyone and I also did some changes on the forum as well (which I planned to detail for later on a big post).

I'm still wrapping things up on how I'll handle the thread but mostly want to make sure it's a fair experience for everyone similar to how NoCheese, Eisenherz and turskain handled the Maison / Tree / Tower threads. Of course, since the GBA era had its own limitations, I'll be allowing certain stuff (which will be detailed later) but want to make sure that the teams presented in here are legitimate options for the people who wish to use them.
 

Purple Kecleon

formerly chickenofdoom
Cheers! Streak-wise I don't really think it has as much to do with luck or hax as much as it does just not seeing certain matchups. This team and the Arena in general isn't really designed in such a way that bad luck is what beats you. Most of my streaks reach the 190-210 range with this one being a standout. All you really have to be looking out for is more than one PKMN on the threatlist coming at you. It's not like tower where a crit on setup is what tears your team apart.
When I made the initial reply commenting on how insanely lucky you would have to be to reach 313 regardless of what team you use, I didn't want to come off as too accusatory and jump to conclusions especially since I haven't played the Arena in a long time. But yes, I definitely shared the same skepticism that others have already stated in this thread.

I remembered the Arena as one of the most frustrating and luck based facilities. I personally had a harder time with it than even the Factory or Palace trying to get the Gold Symbol.

Regardless, I appreciate your post since it has me itching to play the Arena again when I have some more free time. And it has also sparked some nice discussion on the theory of the Lati sandwich team.
 
Reason is simply because I'm debating on whether including streaks with RNG'd rentals separate or not... or even if they should be included. It's not as polarizing as Gen 4 because you can't decide what the opponent will carry for the next rounds. However, I do have to recognize that being able to pick frames where you are being presented with the most optimal choice of rentals does give players a huge advantage over those who did not RNG their rental options and had to battle all their way up to the Gold Symbol.

I'm not ignoring your streak on purpose and I know there are some RNG'd streaks posted on the Factory section. I just need more time to decide on how I'll handle RNG'd / non-RNG'd Factory streaks. I want to make this fair for everyone and I also did some changes on the forum as well (which I planned to detail for later on a big post).

I'm still wrapping things up on how I'll handle the thread but mostly want to make sure it's a fair experience for everyone similar to how NoCheese, Eisenherz and turskain handled the Maison / Tree / Tower threads. Of course, since the GBA era had its own limitations, I'll be allowing certain stuff (which will be detailed later) but want to make sure that the teams presented in here are legitimate options for the people who wish to use them.
Thank you for for explaining! I like your idea very much. Please don't feel pressured because of my comment as I know we all have lives outside of this forum.
 
I don't really want to get mixed up in the "do we believe 313" atmosphere, but I did try the team mainly because I was interested in a Modest Latios' lead potential in combination with STAB-less Snorlax. Though I know the EVs can be optimized, I decided to run the exact sets you posted. I noted Latios has 301 speed. Is that because it ran HP[Fire] as well once?

I'm still not convinced by a long shot what the best Lati-sandwich team is, and I'm eager to find out. I played around 50 "80-plus trainer" battles with the team and lost 3 times:
  • First loss was actually the first battle! Lead Articuno, it protects twice against Thunderbolt. I try to Thunderbolt again (for Snorlax to have a chance at winning with a Curse up instead of relying on Judge or Selfdestruct) but miss and it Ice Beams, winning the judgement. Out comes Snorlax, which gets frozen by an Ice Beam. On the third turn it thaws and succesfully Selfdestructs away the Articuno. Far behind at this point. Second Pokemon is Moltres, who 2HKOed by Latias as it only burns through Lum Berry with Swagger. Last Pokemon is Regice, "gg"
  • Second loss was against the infamous Double Team Snorlax. It just got lucky with Double Team and beat both Latios AND Snorlax through insane miss hax. What can you say.
  • Third loss was against Umbreon-4 about how you would expect; confused Latios and dodged Snorlax' Selfdestruct on the third turn, where no other move would have KO-ed it without a critical hit. It beat the whole team on its own.
Overall, I was quite impressed with Modest Latios and some 2HKOs/OHKOs it scores over the Timid version, but most of it doesn't really weigh up against the advantages of Timid: e.g. you OHKO Starmie yes, but still eat a hit now because you're slower, whereas the Timid version has a chance to crit through on the first try. I also encountered Manectric who nearly Crunch-crit me to death, and got crit once by an Aerodactyl. Those are really things I would like to avoid in Arena as much as possible. For Arena, it's all about hax control without defensive play and I think outspeeding stuff is a big part of that. I think Modest Latios is best used as a set-up Pokemon (or on Doubles where you desperately need to remove Fighting-types), so it can afford more bulk and hit like Rambo, but that's another story.

I also faced the Jynx problems you mentioned, big mann on campus, and I think Chesto Berry on Lax is actually the best way to avoid getting owned by it. You play it agressively anyway. I would almost go as far as saying "ditch Memento" and make Lax gives up Curse or just replace it with Metagross, lol. Setting up with Curse can be valuable though, a properly EVed Curselax is a good Pokemon. Latias is a pretty weak finisher last 'mon IMO.

More constructive ideas on how to improve the team without changing Pokemon too much:
  • If you really like to keep Modest Latios, use 300 Speed and put the filler EVs into HP instead of Special Defense. This might give you around 1% less bulk on the special side, but the extra bulk on the physical side is invaluable against obvious threats (that also threaten Snorlax already!)
  • Putting 140 HP / 252 Atk / 116 Def on Lax is a way to keep your offensive presence and Snorlax way more impenetrable on the physical side after a Curse. For example, it is very likely to let you survive three Meteor Mashes, while you Curse after the second. It also provides the nice survival against Thunderbolt + crit Cross Chop from Electabuzz, for example, so you can try and squeeze out a Curse if necessary.
  • I think Calm Mind, or even DIVE, outperforms HP[Fire] on last-poke Latias. As mentioned earlier, HP[Fire] is dangerous to use because of Counter and doesn't have the power to consistently accomplish the very reasons to use it. There's many ideas to play around with, for example Sitrus Berry + Dive can net you the body + skill against a lot of opponents too. There's a lot of spreads to play around with.
Haven't got much time to add to this answer right now. As a final tip, I think playing the team on level 50 is better for all the reasons stated already. Cheers!
 
I don't really want to get mixed up in the "do we believe 313" atmosphere, but I did try the team mainly because I was interested in a Modest Latios' lead potential in combination with STAB-less Snorlax. Though I know the EVs can be optimized, I decided to run the exact sets you posted. I noted Latios has 301 speed. Is that because it ran HP[Fire] as well once?

I'm still not convinced by a long shot what the best Lati-sandwich team is, and I'm eager to find out. I played around 50 "80-plus trainer" battles with the team and lost 3 times:
  • First loss was actually the first battle! Lead Articuno, it protects twice against Thunderbolt. I try to Thunderbolt again (for Snorlax to have a chance at winning with a Curse up instead of relying on Judge or Selfdestruct) but miss and it Ice Beams, winning the judgement. Out comes Snorlax, which gets frozen by an Ice Beam. On the third turn it thaws and succesfully Selfdestructs away the Articuno. Far behind at this point. Second Pokemon is Moltres, who 2HKOed by Latias as it only burns through Lum Berry with Swagger. Last Pokemon is Regice, "gg"
  • Second loss was against the infamous Double Team Snorlax. It just got lucky with Double Team and beat both Latios AND Snorlax through insane miss hax. What can you say.
  • Third loss was against Umbreon-4 about how you would expect; confused Latios and dodged Snorlax' Selfdestruct on the third turn, where no other move would have KO-ed it without a critical hit. It beat the whole team on its own.
Overall, I was quite impressed with Modest Latios and some 2HKOs/OHKOs it scores over the Timid version, but most of it doesn't really weigh up against the advantages of Timid: e.g. you OHKO Starmie yes, but still eat a hit now because you're slower, whereas the Timid version has a chance to crit through on the first try. I also encountered Manectric who nearly Crunch-crit me to death, and got crit once by an Aerodactyl. Those are really things I would like to avoid in Arena as much as possible. For Arena, it's all about hax control without defensive play and I think outspeeding stuff is a big part of that. I think Modest Latios is best used as a set-up Pokemon (or on Doubles where you desperately need to remove Fighting-types), so it can afford more bulk and hit like Rambo, but that's another story.

I also faced the Jynx problems you mentioned, big mann on campus, and I think Chesto Berry on Lax is actually the best way to avoid getting owned by it. You play it agressively anyway. I would almost go as far as saying "ditch Memento" and make Lax gives up Curse or just replace it with Metagross, lol. Setting up with Curse can be valuable though, a properly EVed Curselax is a good Pokemon. Latias is a pretty weak finisher last 'mon IMO.

More constructive ideas on how to improve the team without changing Pokemon too much:
  • If you really like to keep Modest Latios, use 300 Speed and put the filler EVs into HP instead of Special Defense. This might give you around 1% less bulk on the special side, but the extra bulk on the physical side is invaluable against obvious threats (that also threaten Snorlax already!)
  • Putting 140 HP / 252 Atk / 116 Def on Lax is a way to keep your offensive presence and Snorlax way more impenetrable on the physical side after a Curse. For example, it is very likely to let you survive three Meteor Mashes, while you Curse after the second. It also provides the nice survival against Thunderbolt + crit Cross Chop from Electabuzz, for example, so you can try and squeeze out a Curse if necessary.
  • I think Calm Mind, or even DIVE, outperforms HP[Fire] on last-poke Latias. As mentioned earlier, HP[Fire] is dangerous to use because of Counter and doesn't have the power to consistently accomplish the very reasons to use it. There's many ideas to play around with, for example Sitrus Berry + Dive can net you the body + skill against a lot of opponents too. There's a lot of spreads to play around with.
Haven't got much time to add to this answer right now. As a final tip, I think playing the team on level 50 is better for all the reasons stated already. Cheers!
Latios pairs much better with Snorlax than Metagross. Snorlax can be ev'ed to basically live at least 1 hit from just about anything (barring a crit or ohko move). Metagross+ Latios creates a problem against kindlers, who carried dark/fire moves (Houndoom, Arcanine). It's why I ran Kingdra (who is actually a great partner for Metagross).

Regarding curse, I don't think it is worth it in the Arena. Snorlax is meant to be a slow, impenetrable booster, one that excels in longer battles. One curse doesn't do enough to help you sweep. Belly Drum on the other hand, probably makes sense, like the Lati sandwich team you ran, because if you can pull it off, you are going to sweep. I'm interested in finding a way to set up a Belly drum user in the Arena tbh (Linoone, Zard or Poliwrath). Still haven't found the ideal core though.

Going back to Dive, it was used very effectively in the wtset's NU challenge. I'm sure there's a way to optimize dive with one of Latios or Latias. Even the idea of both of them using Dive should be on the table. I'm not sure CM is necessary. It's nice when you can set up, but there's not a lot of time to do that.
 
So here is one of my first few streaks on Emulator with the Lati-Sandwich team.

140-147:
154-161:
161-177(loss):
Also quick note: Sometimes when Snorlax comes out for some reason I get this black square near the opponent health bar that usually lists Snorlax's moves. Don't know why this happens but it goes away after the battle. Some issue with my Emulator or ROM, not sure.

These are all from the same streak, first two videos being sets of 7 and the second being two sets of 7 and a loss on battle 2 or 3 I think.

This is not the same team as in my previous post. Along with the skepticism came lots of helpful and insightful discussion and theorycrafting for the team. The changes are primarily in the spreads of the members. This wasn't the only streak I've done since discussion started, but rather the first long-ish one. Since I loaded this up on Emulator, I also did it at Lvl 50 to avoid things like TTar as mentioned by Kommo-o.

The changes are as follows:

latios gif.gif

I did do some streaks with Timid Latios but if I'm being honest the couple of OHKOs and 2HKOs that it failed to pick up had me yearning to have Modest again. In the above videos I am still running Modest. Things like most Lapras sets, Ludicolo, and Whiscash(3) are more easily 2HKO'd as well as helping to secure kills on the likes of Sceptile and Machamp - the latter feeling important with Snorlax second. As well as having more damage against specially bulky mons like Jynx and Mr. Mime help to win judging more consistently. I also ran Lum Berry on Latios in this streak. Taking on some other suggestions I decided to move Lum Berry up to the lead slot, where I didn't really feel that big of an improvement. It mainly helped against things like Swagger Metagross/faster Crobat, but still was primarily consumed in healing paralysis. On the other hand I found that Latias was getting paralyzed, frozen, and put to sleep frequently, some of which ended up with loses in the 80-100 streak range.

The EV spread for Latios was 78 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe which is similar to before just with the SpD investment in HP instead via the Kommo-o's post. I did keep Memento on Latios for this, I think the only way I'd want to switch it out for something else is if you did a different type of Snorlax set without Curse, or even Belly Drum. An all out attacking one maybe (Return/Shadow Ball/Earthquake/Selfdestruct).

snorlax gif.gif

Snorlax saw some radical spread changes after learning that there are things that Snorlax wants to be tanking. I used Actaeon's spread that he posted about, just with a little speed from Submenceisop to outspeed the likes of Steelix and opposing Snorlax. All to come to 138 HP / 252 Atk / 116 Def / 4 Spe.

255 Atk Machamp Cross Chop vs. 138 HP / 116 Def Snorlax: 209-246 (82.9 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
255 Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 138 HP / 116 Def Snorlax: 107-126 (42.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
255 Atk Magmar Cross Chop vs. 138 HP / 116 Def Snorlax on a critical hit: 224-264 (88.8 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
255 Atk Electabuzz Cross Chop vs. 138 HP / 116 Def Snorlax on a critical hit: 207-244 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
170+ Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Ancient Power vs. 138 HP / 116 Def Snorlax: 82-97 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
255+ Atk Steelix Explosion vs. +1 138 HP / 116 Def Snorlax: 188-222 (74.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In this particular streak the only one of these calcs that came into play was against Metagross lead who takes 2 Tbolts and then loses to Snorlax. The other big change was that Snorlax is running Chesto Berry. I did find that I missed leftovers, especially against things like Swampert, where some sets will spam Mirror Coat while you curse up - and others who will start to EQ/Surf you, which is actually what ended up killing the streak. In the specific instance is also where I see the value in something like CM on Latios lead.

latias gif.png

This time around Latias was running another similar spread.
74 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe Modest, as well as running Twistedspoon over Lum Berry. The hope with this was to guarantee KO on Heracross and Machamp sets, as well as just help to pick of other PKMN who liked to eat up Latias Psychic. As well as max SpA to help OHKO Scizor(1/2/3) with HP Fire.

252+ SpA Twisted Spoon Latias Psychic vs. 255 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 173-204 (92.5 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Twisted Spoon Latias Psychic vs. 255 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 190-224 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 255 SpD Scizor: 146-172 (100.6 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I haven't really had that much success with Dive or any other 4th move on Latias, HP Fire just always seemed like the best option seeing as stuff like Scizor was always a big threat, as well as making Gold Greta very very easy.

The loss, as said above came from a lead Swampert(4). I'm not sure if it's something that only happens with Swampert(2), but often it just tends to spam Mirror Coat while Snorlax Curses and then kills with Earthquake. Other times it does this and damages Lax with Surf and EQ. I think I get a pretty low role on Earthquake and it lives with 1 or 2 HP and leaves me with an easily KO'd Snorlax via Starmie Surf. The rest is history, even if Latias didn't get paralyzed there is no way it could've beat Regice in the back.

If anyone knows if it's a Swampert(2) vs. (4) thing or not with the AI I'd be interested to know.

I'll keep trying in the next couple days when I have time in between school, but please continue the discussion I want to see this team further optimized to see how far into the hundreds it can go.
 
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I only meant to say that Latias is the weakest member of the team, the other two being so dominant. I'm glad that all of these calcs are being shown to me because the Latias being a member that I constantly was changing around the stats are far from perfect. Latias was always able to OHKO Scizor apart from 4, I never actually got countered by Scizor(1). Same deal with Heracross(2) Latias just never came out against a full health Heracross(2) I guess, don't really have an excuse here understand why it looks bad lol.

Also Latias at lvl 100 30 IV and 180 EV hits 300, I played at open lvl. Sorry if I didn't make that clear - first post.
I'm really curious now, you mentioned in your previous post that you obtained a 313 win streak on Open Level before, but I just noticed this on your video and there's no previous record. Is there a reason as to why it remains on 0?


So here is one of my first few streaks on Emulator with the Lati-Sandwich team.

140-147:
154-161:
161-177(loss):
Also quick note: Sometimes when Snorlax comes out for some reason I get this black square near the opponent health bar that usually lists Snorlax's moves. Don't know why this happens but it goes away after the battle. Some issue with my Emulator or ROM, not sure.

These are all from the same streak, first two videos being sets of 7 and the second being two sets of 7 and a loss on battle 2 or 3 I think.

This is not the same team as in my previous post. Along with the skepticism came lots of helpful and insightful discussion and theorycrafting for the team. The changes are primarily in the spreads of the members. This wasn't the only streak I've done since discussion started, but rather the first long-ish one. Since I loaded this up on Emulator, I also did it at Lvl 50 to avoid things like TTar as mentioned by Kommo-o.

The changes are as follows:

View attachment 318190

I did do some streaks with Timid Latios but if I'm being honest the couple of OHKOs and 2HKOs that it failed to pick up had me yearning to have Modest again. In the above videos I am still running Modest. Things like most Lapras sets, Ludicolo, and Whiscash(3) are more easily 2HKO'd as well as helping to secure kills on the likes of Sceptile and Machamp - the latter feeling important with Snorlax second. As well as having more damage against specially bulky mons like Jynx and Mr. Mime help to win judging more consistently. I also ran Lum Berry on Latios in this streak. Taking on some other suggestions I decided to move Lum Berry up to the lead slot, where I didn't really feel that big of an improvement. It mainly helped against things like Swagger Metagross/faster Crobat, but still was primarily consumed in healing paralysis. On the other hand I found that Latias was getting paralyzed, frozen, and put to sleep frequently, some of which ended up with loses in the 80-100 streak range.

The EV spread for Latios was 78 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe which is similar to before just with the SpD investment in HP instead via the Kommo-o's post. I did keep Memento on Latios for this, I think the only way I'd want to switch it out for something else is if you did a different type of Snorlax set without Curse, or even Belly Drum. An all out attacking one maybe (Return/Shadow Ball/Earthquake/Selfdestruct).
I have to ask: Is the same Modest Latios EV spread being used on a Timid Latios? On my previous post I did mentioned the advantages of using Timid over Modest with it being able to outspeed a plethora of threats. 180 Speed with Timid still leaves you at the mercy of Dugtrio who can win via judgement with some Rock Slide flinches and Sceptile 4 being able to OHKO with a critical hit Dragon Claw:

255+ SpA Sceptile Dragon Claw vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Latios on a critical hit: 163-192 (98.7 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

View attachment 318192
Snorlax saw some radical spread changes after learning that there are things that Snorlax wants to be tanking. I used Actaeon's spread that he posted about, just with a little speed from Submenceisop to outspeed the likes of Steelix and opposing Snorlax. All to come to 138 HP / 252 Atk / 116 Def / 4 Spe.

255 Atk Machamp Cross Chop vs. 138 HP / 116 Def Snorlax: 209-246 (82.9 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
255 Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 138 HP / 116 Def Snorlax: 107-126 (42.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
255 Atk Magmar Cross Chop vs. 138 HP / 116 Def Snorlax on a critical hit: 224-264 (88.8 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
255 Atk Electabuzz Cross Chop vs. 138 HP / 116 Def Snorlax on a critical hit: 207-244 (82.1 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
170+ Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Ancient Power vs. 138 HP / 116 Def Snorlax: 82-97 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
255+ Atk Steelix Explosion vs. +1 138 HP / 116 Def Snorlax: 188-222 (74.6 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In this particular streak the only one of these calcs that came into play was against Metagross lead who takes 2 Tbolts and then loses to Snorlax. The other big change was that Snorlax is running Chesto Berry. I did find that I missed leftovers, especially against things like Swampert, where some sets will spam Mirror Coat while you curse up - and others who will start to EQ/Surf you, which is actually what ended up killing the streak. In the specific instance is also where I see the value in something like CM on Latios lead.
I'm glad that you were able to actually customize Snorlax's spread and end up with a better one that actually has some thought on it. This also improves the Jynx matchup making it less of a threat. I wonder if you considered Belly Drum as an option since Memento can force the opponent to halve its offenses, I feel that having more power without needing to sacrifice Snorlax would be more beneficial on the long run.

View attachment 318193
This time around Latias was running another similar spread.
74 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe Modest, as well as running Twistedspoon over Lum Berry. The hope with this was to guarantee KO on Heracross and Machamp sets, as well as just help to pick of other PKMN who liked to eat up Latias Psychic. As well as max SpA to help OHKO Scizor(1/2/3) with HP Fire.

252+ SpA Twisted Spoon Latias Psychic vs. 255 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 173-204 (92.5 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Twisted Spoon Latias Psychic vs. 255 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 190-224 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 255 SpD Scizor: 146-172 (100.6 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I haven't really had that much success with Dive or any other 4th move on Latias, HP Fire just always seemed like the best option seeing as stuff like Scizor was always a big threat, as well as making Gold Greta very very easy.

The loss, as said above came from a lead Swampert(4). I'm not sure if it's something that only happens with Swampert(2), but often it just tends to spam Mirror Coat while Snorlax Curses and then kills with Earthquake. Other times it does this and damages Lax with Surf and EQ. I think I get a pretty low role on Earthquake and it lives with 1 or 2 HP and leaves me with an easily KO'd Snorlax via Starmie Surf. The rest is history, even if Latias didn't get paralyzed there is no way it could've beat Regice in the back.

If anyone knows if it's a Swampert(2) vs. (4) thing or not with the AI I'd be interested to know.

I'll keep trying in the next couple days when I have time in between school, but please continue the discussion I want to see this team further optimized to see how far into the hundreds it can go.
On Latias I got nothing to say. It's kind of being held back due to its lower SpA BST but it does what it has to do. Other than that, thanks for contributing with some video samples and I'll be waiting for your response.
 
I'm really curious now, you mentioned in your previous post that you obtained a 313 win streak on Open Level before, but I just noticed this on your video and there's no previous record. Is there a reason as to why it remains on 0?




I have to ask: Is the same Modest Latios EV spread being used on a Timid Latios? On my previous post I did mentioned the advantages of using Timid over Modest with it being able to outspeed a plethora of threats. 180 Speed with Timid still leaves you at the mercy of Dugtrio who can win via judgement with some Rock Slide flinches and Sceptile 4 being able to OHKO with a critical hit Dragon Claw:

255+ SpA Sceptile Dragon Claw vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Latios on a critical hit: 163-192 (98.7 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO



I'm glad that you were able to actually customize Snorlax's spread and end up with a better one that actually has some thought on it. This also improves the Jynx matchup making it less of a threat. I wonder if you considered Belly Drum as an option since Memento can force the opponent to halve its offenses, I feel that having more power without needing to sacrifice Snorlax would be more beneficial on the long run.



On Latias I got nothing to say. It's kind of being held back due to its lower SpA BST but it does what it has to do. Other than that, thanks for contributing with some video samples and I'll be waiting for your response.
Hi!

The last streak was done on a different save, and ROM, I reset everything and then downloaded a new ROM to see about the "black square" glitch I was having. It's not the same save or even game file anymore lol. I can load up the ROM and save and take a screenshot if you want, but I'm more confident that the streak will be surpassed by me or someone else hopefully using the more optimized version of the team soon. As well in my first post I actually had a misunderstanding about what "retail" meant in the context of this thread - I thought it meant that it was done on an unedited version of the game, unlike these streaks where I edited the game to put myself in the frontier so I didn't have to play through the game like I did the first time. There is no need to post the original streak, it makes more sense to have verifiable proof like the video's I plan to continue posting of streaks to make them more legit. And like I said I have no doubts that it will be beaten soon.

As for the the Latios spread: no when I had it Timid it wasn't the same spread. I was running it with 220 Spe and 252 SpA with whatever was left into HP. I think that outsped both Dugtrio and Sceptile.That was the whole idea with running timid besides Gengar and Espeon and such.

Snorlax-wise I don't really like the idea of Belly Drum, even with halfed offensive stats, any kind of crit or even some special moves do way too much damage, especially with Snorlax being one of the slowest PKMN around the Arena. Even with Curse on Lax some surfs from Starmies, or Ice Beams from Lapras, Walrein, Etc. just do more damage than you want to have on Snorlax. As well, Belly Drum is just a higher risk move for Snorlax - you're not really wanting to set up Curse unless the lead or second PKMN allows for it, a fast special attacker coming out against a half HP Snorlax will surely force out Latias which isn't favourable.

I agree Latias does what it needs to do, I don't really know what a better option in this slot would be, whether or not you sacrifice the "Lati-Sandwich" build. I've tested Starmie, Suicune, and Raikou, all of which are outshined by Latias, and physical attackers often lack the coverage to clean up the way Latias does.

Apart from that I was able to record an entire streak from Greta Gold upwards into the 140s today. Non-edited, recorded straight from the emulator until I died at 150.

Here is an unedited video of a streak from Gold Greta (56) onwards up until 150 where I died due to my own mistake.


The loss itself on this one is completely human error - Metagross is an obvious threat and I wouldn't have dealt with it differently, but I should've used Selfdestruct on Meganium as Latias would've beat Feraligatr last on it's own had it not been paralyzed. Oops. But again this team has potential to go much higher. It has and will again.

Another thing worth noting about the team and how to play it - I often will end up with Snorlax out against the opponents third PKMN, and 9 times out of 10 my instinct is to just use Selfdestruct but if you can avoid this, you should. Too many PKMN carry things like brightpowder and Double Team, so sometimes even when I was out against things like Gardevoir while I was at +2 I would still use Selfdestruct, which is bad because they could've easily used double team and made me miss and then be in a terrible situation with Latias out.

The best example of this is in this streak I had Snorlax out who was at +2 from a choice-locked Absol stuck using Shadow Ball, and Suicune came out. I could've easily just EQ'd it to death but got lazy and used Selfdestruct. It Double teamed that turn and thankfully, I didn't miss. But had I it was putting me in a very unnecessarily risky situation.
 
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Hi!

The last streak was done on a different save, and ROM, I reset everything and then downloaded a new ROM to see about the "black square" glitch I was having. It's not the same save or even game file anymore lol. I can load up the ROM and save and take a screenshot if you want, but I'm more confident that the streak will be surpassed by me or someone else hopefully using the more optimized version of the team soon. As well in my first post I actually had a misunderstanding about what "retail" meant in the context of this thread - I thought it meant that it was done on an unedited version of the game, unlike these streaks where I edited the game to put myself in the frontier so I didn't have to play through the game like I did the first time. There is no need to post the original streak, it makes more sense to have verifiable proof like the video's I plan to continue posting of streaks to make them more legit. And like I said I have no doubts that it will be beaten soon.

As for the the Latios spread: no when I had it Timid it wasn't the same spread. I was running it with 220 Spe and 252 SpA with whatever was left into HP. I think that outsped both Dugtrio and Sceptile.That was the whole idea with running timid besides Gengar and Espeon and such.

Snorlax-wise I don't really like the idea of Belly Drum, even with halfed offensive stats, any kind of crit or even some special moves do way too much damage, especially with Snorlax being one of the slowest PKMN around the Arena. Even with Curse on Lax some surfs from Starmies, or Ice Beams from Lapras, Walrein, Etc. just do more damage than you want to have on Snorlax. As well, Belly Drum is just a higher risk move for Snorlax - you're not really wanting to set up Curse unless the lead or second PKMN allows for it, a fast special attacker coming out against a half HP Snorlax will surely force out Latias which isn't favourable.

I agree Latias does what it needs to do, I don't really know what a better option in this slot would be, whether or not you sacrifice the "Lati-Sandwich" build. I've tested Starmie, Suicune, and Raikou, all of which are outshined by Latias, and physical attackers often lack the coverage to clean up the way Latias does.

Apart from that I was able to record an entire streak from Greta Gold upwards into the 140s today. Non-edited, recorded straight from the emulator until I died at 150.

Here is an unedited video of a streak from Gold Greta (56) onwards up until 150 where I died due to my own mistake.


The loss itself on this one is completely human error - Metagross is an obvious threat and I wouldn't have dealt with it differently, but I should've used Selfdestruct on Meganium as Latias would've beat Feraligatr last on it's own had it not been paralyzed. Oops. But again this team has potential to go much higher. It has and will again.

Another thing worth noting about the team and how to play it - I often will end up with Snorlax out against the opponents third PKMN, and 9 times out of 10 my instinct is to just use Selfdestruct but if you can avoid this, you should. Too many PKMN carry things like brightpowder and Double Team, so sometimes even when I was out against things like Gardevoir while I was at +2 I would still use Selfdestruct, which is bad because they could've easily used double team and made me miss and then be in a terrible situation with Latias out.

The best example of this is in this streak I had Snorlax out who was at +2 from a choice-locked Absol stuck using Shadow Ball, and Suicune came out. I could've easily just EQ'd it to death but got lazy and used Selfdestruct. It Double teamed that turn and thankfully, I didn't miss. But had I it was putting me in a very unnecessarily risky situation.
Thanks for getting back! I'll be including the 150 win streak on the leaderboard since there's irrefutable proof on this video that the improved version of this team did legitimately reached the end-result shown. I didn't felt so confident on the 177 streak initially since the sample proof was very little and some of the samples chosen felt cherry-picked specially since only the last three rounds were shown. However, the 150 streak proves the solidness of this team, your team-building efforts and it clarifies all of the previous doubts I had since the first post.

We all can possibly imagine what happened with the 313 win streak or how it reached those numbers but since you made amends on this, I'll move on from it. You're the only one who knows what really happened but hopefully you'll learn from this experience. Our intention is not to be demeaning to other people but we want to make sure that this thread is filled with insightful and veracious content that will help others achieve high streaks or beat the Battle Frontier without misleading anyone. There's a lot of people who do plenty of research to reach those numbers and we want to make sure that effort is being respected.

Thanks for answering my questions and congratulations for taking the #1 spot on the Battle Arena leaderboard.
 
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I'd like to add some competitively viable legendary birds to my arsenal but I don't currently have access to a Pokémon XD game disc. I could try to get it working through Wii homebrew, but my easiest bet is a cart of Fire Red that I could restart.

Would I be allowed to post a run where I used the Pike sketch glitch to get the XD-exclusive moves on the birds? (edit: Nope. See post below) The guidelines state that it's allowed for legal egg moves and one-time tutor moves, so my question would be if it is also allowed for specially-acquired moves with legal combinations. My gut response is no - it would open the door for event-exclusive moves that no one could reasonably obtain. It would also alienate people who wish to avoid glitches when building a team. I guess it could be restricted to XD/Pokémon Box but I'm curious to hear your guys' thoughts.

Some Pokémon with specially-acquired moves that stick out to me:
  • Linoone with Extreme Speed (reward from Pokémon Box)
  • Salamance, Kangaskhan, and Blissey with Wish (NYPC in-person event)
  • Wynaut with Tickle (in-person Japan-exclusive egg giveaway)
So yeah I think I'll work on getting Pokémon XD running lol
 
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I'd like to add some competitively viable legendary birds to my arsenal but I don't currently have access to a Pokémon XD game disc. I could try to get it working through Wii homebrew, but my easiest bet is a cart of Fire Red that I could restart.

Would I be allowed to post a run where I used the Pike sketch glitch to get the XD-exclusive moves on the birds? The guidelines state that it's allowed for legal egg moves and one-time tutor moves, so my question would be if it is also allowed for specially-acquired moves with legal combinations. My gut response is no - it would open the door for event-exclusive moves that no one could reasonably obtain. It would also alienate people who wish to avoid glitches when building a team. I guess it could be restricted to XD/Pokémon Box but I'm curious to hear your guys' thoughts.

Some Pokémon with specially-acquired moves that stick out to me:
  • Linoone with Extreme Speed (reward from Pokémon Box)
  • Salamance, Kangaskhan, and Blissey with Wish (NYPC in-person event)
  • Wynaut with Tickle (in-person Japan-exclusive egg giveaway)
So yeah I think I'll work on getting Pokémon XD running lol
Nope. Reason why is because XD Pokemon are nature locked and therefore, certain IV combinations would not be possible (Most Pokemon from XD cannot be flawless). Same goes for using the Pike glitch to obtain the PCNY event moves and the Box exclusive moves. I'll allow Pike glitch to be used to recover a forgotten purify move but only if the Pokemon was legally obtained from XD and not from another game.

If you're able to dump or extract GBA save files from a cartridge, if Wii Homebrew becomes a possibility or you're playing from an emulator, remember that I have a server where I have RNG'd XD Pokemon available for free.
 
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Nope. Reason why is because XD Pokemon are nature locked and therefore, certain IV combinations would not be possible (Most Pokemon from XD cannot be flawless). Same goes for using the Pike glitch to obtain the PCNY event moves and the Box exclusive moves. I'll allow Pike glitch to be used to recover a forgotten purify move but only if the Pokemon was legally obtained from XD and not from another game.

If you're able to dump or extract GBA save files from a cartridge, if Wii Homebrew becomes a possibility or you're playing from an emulator, remember that I have a server where I have RNG'd XD Pokemon available for free.
I didn't know about the Bank of Hoenn - that's incredible! I am able to extract my save files so this opens a lot of opportunities. Thank you for the resource!

I feel a little silly now for even asking the question lol. Thank you for explaining.
 
Thanks for getting back! I'll be including the 150 win streak on the leaderboard since there's irrefutable proof on this video that the improved version of this team did legitimately reached the end-result shown. I didn't felt so confident on the 177 streak initially since the sample proof was very little and some of the samples chosen felt cherry-picked specially since only the last three rounds were shown. However, the 150 streak proves the solidness of this team, your team-building efforts and it clarifies all of the previous doubts I had since the first post.

We all can possibly imagine what happened with the 313 win streak or how it reached those numbers but since you made amends on this, I'll move on from it. You're the only one who knows what really happened but hopefully you'll learn from this experience. Our intention is not to be demeaning to other people but we want to make sure that this thread is filled with insightful and veracious content that will help others achieve high streaks or beat the Battle Frontier without misleading anyone. There's a lot of people who do plenty of research to reach those numbers and we want to make sure that effort is being respected.

Thanks for answering my questions and congratulations for taking the #1 spot on the Battle Arena leaderboard.
Going forward, would I have to upload a long video like that to get my streaks verified? This one alone could've gone further but I lost due to my own error. I don't plan on recording every single streak I do, what would be the best way going forward?
 
Going forward, would I have to upload a long video like that to get my streaks verified? This one alone could've gone further but I lost due to my own error. I don't plan on recording every single streak I do, what would be the best way going forward?
As long as the write up looks credible enough, it will be fine. Video samples always help whenever you're able to, since it documents the best way on how a team works. You should check Actaeon's, wtset's, Golden Blissey's or Adedede's write ups and see how detailed they are.
 
Going forward I'll just make an effort to make my write-ups detailed and in general I'll hit record when the streak reaches the higher numbers. That being said...


Here is a streak reaching 199

I know there is lots of doubt about the 300+ streak, but I have no doubts that numbers like that can and will be reached again. In the mean time here is a streak that reached 199. I started recording after getting to 147 as I knew that was getting close to the recorded streak here in the thread. Now I know I don't necessarily have to make a video like this one, but I agree it does offer a perspective into how a team works beyond what a detailed description can.

Here is the current iteration of the team:
latios gif.gif

Latios @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 78 HP / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: x Atk
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Memento

snorlax gif.gif

Snorlax @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 50
EVs: 138 HP / 252 Atk / 116 Def / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: x SpA
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Shadow Ball
- Self-Destruct

latias gif.png

Latias @ Twisted Spoon
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 74 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Here is a brief description of the sets:
On Latios I've found more success with the modest set to pick up more KO's against threats like Lapras, Walrein, Starmie, Ursaring, Slowbro/king, Regirock, etc. and win judging against bulky psychics like Espeon, Jynx, Gardevoir, etc. Timid allows you to outspeed Gengars and some other threats like Dugtrio, Sceptile, Aerodactyl, etc. But in my experience Modest works better. 180 Spe EVs beat out the 100 base speed tier - with the rest of the EVs going to HP for increased bulk. Lum berry is self explanatory, and is especially useful against things like Jynx which otherwise threatens the team.

Snorlax's spread is designed to survive crit Cross Chops from Magmar and Machamp, as well as to eat more than 2 Meteor Mash's from Metagross, STAB moves from banded Aerodactyl, CB Ursaring and Granbull, and Explosion from Steelix. The 4 Speed EVs allow for it to always outspeed other Snorlax and Steelix. Selfdestruct on Lax is the strongest non-boosted move in the game, it kills every non-resist, and even kills things like 3 out of 4 Scizor sets. Chesto is important as between it and Lum on Latios it basically nulifies a big threat in Jynx, as well as other sleep users like Blissey, or Gengar.

Latias doesn't have the same firepower that Latios has, so it is forced to run Modest 252 SpA to pick up essential KOs. Latias' role in the team is primarily to beat things that Snorlax loses to, as well as clean up when required. The Twistedspoon allows for better rolls on killing things like Heracross and Machamp. HP Fire OHKO's Scizor 1, 2, and 3, and is very useful against last PKMN Metagross, another big threat to the team. The EVs otherwise match Latios' made to outspeed the base 100 tier.

This is another stupid loss, hopefully also proving that the team can easily continue to push further as I've said previously.

Scizor(2) carries quick claw and nearly kills Latios turn 1, and you always have to Memento on Scizor at risk of it being set 4... Snorlax comes out to curse and kill, whereafter a Shuckle comes out to hax and win judging against the rest of the team. Theoretically I could've exploded on Shuckle for the win, but it was an equally bad situation had I missed Selfdestruct. And even then, I don't know the the last PKMN was, it could've beaten Latias all the same.

I will continue to do streaks, and hopefully remember to record when I get into higher zones such as this one. Thanks to Kommo-o for the patience and I'll get to 300 again soon lol.
 
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Kommo-o.
I think Gengar is the GOAT in the Arena. The immunities and D-bond along with it's coverage make it an amazing lead.

I fucking lost to DD Mence. Super salty right now. Streak ended at 369. Missed twice and then got flinched with Rock slide.

Edit: Just realized the link does not work. I also made a misplay thinking about it. Suicune should never be out, unless it's to check a threat or it's easy set up. Gengar should have been swapped in to either ice punch/perish song to ko the Salamence.
I recently tried this team again. Got my personal tower record of 381. Lost battle 382 to Rhydon and Mr mime. Rhydon QC rock slides Gengar, eats a hit from ice punch. I should have risked Suicune instead, but I had Umbreon toxic stall it while taking huge damage. Mr mime finishes off Umbreon and then crits a thunderbolt while I was setting up Suicune.

Other losses: @ 220 to QC Snorlax, Lapras.
Recently lost at 170 to Steelix, Metagross, Heracross. Steelix exploded on Suicune, used destiny bond on Metagross. Heracross smashes Umbreon with Megahorn.

Example play through of 7 battles. I set up when it's safe, on a non target or after a torment/pp stall. I set up to +6. First time recording using OBS.

For leaderboard purposes, I would like to report the 381 streak, as the team has not changed between attempts. Too demoralized to try again. Seems like a team that can reach 300.

Noticeable flaws: Gengar's general fraility (although it lives a lot of non stab moves), electric types, heracross, unpredictable explosion users (esp things like Electrode).

Other thoughts: I'm curious to hear more about Umbreon's set. I actually created this one myself and I'm proud of it. But I wonder if it could be further optimized.

From Page 25/ Updated Threatlist
Snorlax (++)
Whiscash, Haxdon, Haxrein, Lapras (++)
Heracross( focus band/bright powder)- potential d-bond target (++)
Metagross esp QC sets (can beat me with some hax, namely MM attack raises)
Mixed electrics with fighting coverage can be a problem.
Explosion users (Metagross, Steelix, Electrode)

https://pokepast.es/ab0b64cb23aa2851

 

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With all the commotion on Arena, I would like to contribute another concept I've playing around with lately. After a few days of thinking / optimizing / testing, this is the team I ended up with. In the final version, I ended up needing the third Pokemon only rarely, so I'm still not quite sure if it's the best. It has been consistently getting ~40 wins in succession, and I think there's room for improvement. Here we go!

"I have a song Inside" -- Bill & Gloria Gaither

1614259362134.png

Gengar @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Perish Song
- Substitute
- Psychic
- Destiny Bond

Gengar is the lead of choice to set up the star of this team: an "Arena-cheesing" Lapras. It's fast and sets up Perish Song with ease. If Gengar can beat their first Pokemon on its own with Psychic, I'm pretty much guaranteed to win the battle (as should be the case with most Arena teams). Why Psychic, you might ask. It's to win the 1v1 against those STAB Cross Chop-carrying Pokemon, so Lapras can focus on Special Defense in order to live STAB Thunders and still be able to make a Substitute. But of course, it beats some other Pokemon as well.
If Gengar can't win the matchup, it usually uses Perish Song until it faints (so it's actually sure to LOSE the judging because it'll "fail"). Finally, Destiny Bond is to drag along their second Pokemon if I can win against the first and Lapras doesn't look good. It's most important use is against Soundproof Pokemon: Destiny Bond is the only move I can beat all of them with guaranteed.
Note that Gengar wins against Greta 100% of the time on its own: Umbreon will always keep using Confuse Ray for some reason, so Sub + Psychic + Psychic wins Mind and Skill even if it doesn't affect Umbreon LOL.

Thank you Adedede for thinking along about this Gengar.

1614259772325.png

Lapras @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature (+SpD, -Spe)
IVs: 6 Speed
- Substitute
- Protect
- Dive
- Perish Song

I love Shell Armor Lapras. This thing survives all non-Cross Chop/Focus Punch/Explosion hits guaranteed, outslows the opponent (but still has 6 Speed IVs to outspeed Rhydon) and makes a Substitute while they faint to Perish Song (possibly use Protect first, or Protect + Sub + Protect if their Perish Count is 3 at the beginning). Note Lapras is heavily in favor of being able to make a Substitute against even Ampharos/Raikou THUNDER. Stuff like Meteor Mash doesn't even come close of bringing me under 25%, and I don't have to be afraid of STAB (Choice Band) Normal moves since I have lead Gengar.
This makes the sequence [into Water] + Dive + Protect win on Skill and Body against most Pokemon, and it makes Lapras heal enough HP to live most hits against the next Pokemon as well. If possible, Lapras secures the game against their last Pokemon with Perish Song.

1614260136651.png

Swampert @ Shell Bell
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Spe)
- Substitute
- Protect
- Dive
- Endeavor

After a lot of testing, this Swampert came up as a good last over Latios on this particular team. Basically it follows the same strategy as Lapras does, and it's also really hard to bring under 25% with one move, although it does give me some risk against Sceptile if Lapras got too low before. Luckily, Sceptile mostly appears on "starter Pokemon" trainers, which I handle perfectly otherwise. Usually, all Swampert it does is come in, Protect, and win the battle. Unlike Lapras, this Swampert doesn't have a -Spe nature or reduced IVs, since it has to be able to outspeed OHKO users in case they nail Lapras.

But if needed, it can make a Sub like Lapras, "Dive-cheese" the next opponent with Dive and Protect. Against Water Absorbers and the like, or against last Pokemon if really necessary, it can use "Shell Bell Endeavor" on the last turn, which ensures that I win Body at least.

Lastly, another strategy I can use if I'm REALLY behind is use Dive when they die to Perish. Interestingly, Swampert then stays underwater on the first turn of the next Pokemon, so they will likely miss on turn 1, after which I can Protect + Endeavor and win both Skill and Body. Of course, act accordingly if you can win Mind instead at the expense of Skill.


I'm pretty sure this team can be further optimized, but I was mainly impressed with its ability to seal games very early in the battle, sort of like Trick does in Battle Tower. I can't wait to hear your suggestions.
 
With all the commotion on Arena, I would like to contribute another concept I've playing around with lately. After a few days of thinking / optimizing / testing, this is the team I ended up with. In the final version, I ended up needing the third Pokemon only rarely, so I'm still not quite sure if it's the best. It has been consistently getting ~40 wins in succession, and I think there's room for improvement. Here we go!

"I have a song Inside" -- Bill & Gloria Gaither

View attachment 318740
Gengar @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Perish Song
- Substitute
- Psychic
- Destiny Bond

Gengar is the lead of choice to set up the star of this team: an "Arena-cheesing" Lapras. It's fast and sets up Perish Song with ease. If Gengar can beat their first Pokemon on its own with Psychic, I'm pretty much guaranteed to win the battle (as should be the case with most Arena teams). Why Psychic, you might ask. It's to win the 1v1 against those STAB Cross Chop-carrying Pokemon, so Lapras can focus on Special Defense in order to live STAB Thunders and still be able to make a Substitute. But of course, it beats some other Pokemon as well.
If Gengar can't win the matchup, it usually uses Perish Song until it faints (so it's actually sure to LOSE the judging because it'll "fail"). Finally, Destiny Bond is to drag along their second Pokemon if I can win against the first and Lapras doesn't look good. It's most important use is against Soundproof Pokemon: Destiny Bond is the only move I can beat all of them with guaranteed.
Note that Gengar wins against Greta 100% of the time on its own: Umbreon will always keep using Confuse Ray for some reason, so Sub + Psychic + Psychic wins Mind and Skill even if it doesn't affect Umbreon LOL.

Thank you Adedede for thinking along about this Gengar.

View attachment 318741
Lapras @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature (+SpD, -Spe)
IVs: 6 Speed
- Substitute
- Protect
- Dive
- Perish Song

I love Shell Armor Lapras. This thing survives all non-Cross Chop/Focus Punch/Explosion hits guaranteed, outslows the opponent (but still has 6 Speed IVs to outspeed Rhydon) and makes a Substitute while they faint to Perish Song (possibly use Protect first, or Protect + Sub + Protect if their Perish Count is 3 at the beginning). Note Lapras is heavily in favor of being able to make a Substitute against even Ampharos/Raikou THUNDER. Stuff like Meteor Mash doesn't even come close of bringing me under 25%, and I don't have to be afraid of STAB (Choice Band) Normal moves since I have lead Gengar.
This makes the sequence [into Water] + Dive + Protect win on Skill and Body against most Pokemon, and it makes Lapras heal enough HP to live most hits against the next Pokemon as well. If possible, Lapras secures the game against their last Pokemon with Perish Song.

View attachment 318742
Swampert @ Shell Bell
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD
Calm Nature (+SpD, -Spe)
- Substitute
- Protect
- Dive
- Endeavor

After a lot of testing, this Swampert came up as a good last over Latios on this particular team. Basically it follows the same strategy as Lapras does, and it's also really hard to bring under 25% with one move, although it does give me some risk against Sceptile if Lapras got too low before. Luckily, Sceptile mostly appears on "starter Pokemon" trainers, which I handle perfectly otherwise. Usually, all Swampert it does is come in, Protect, and win the battle. Unlike Lapras, this Swampert doesn't have a -Spe nature or reduced IVs, since it has to be able to outspeed OHKO users in case they nail Lapras.

But if needed, it can make a Sub like Lapras, "Dive-cheese" the next opponent with Dive and Protect. Against Water Absorbers and the like, or against last Pokemon if really necessary, it can use "Shell Bell Endeavor" on the last turn, which ensures that I win Body at least.

Lastly, another strategy I can use if I'm REALLY behind is use Dive when they die to Perish. Interestingly, Swampert then stays underwater on the first turn of the next Pokemon, so they will likely miss on turn 1, after which I can Protect + Endeavor and win both Skill and Body. Of course, act accordingly if you can win Mind instead at the expense of Skill.


I'm pretty sure this team can be further optimized, but I was mainly impressed with its ability to seal games very early in the battle, sort of like Trick does in Battle Tower. I can't wait to hear your suggestions.
I like the idea of a team that tries to capitalize on the unique mechanics that the Arena offers. IMO Gengar is an S tier PKMN in the Arena, whether in an offensive role or a stall-oriented one like this.

I think a fast sub user is amazing for this strategy, and Gengar is perfect for the role. My question is isn't Gengar beat out by anything that just spams attacks? I feel like if you face even something a trivial as a Jolteon it could spell really bad news. While trying to win by judging is interesting, it also seems like it makes you weak to poor matchup. I feel like you want to avoid having both you and your opponents PKMN dying after the first round, because you never know what will come out next. Does lapras actually consistently beat out anything with super effective attacks in the second slot? 3 opponent PKMN that all like to just use attacking moves seems like bad news for the team. How do you work around all out attackers I'm curious.

I know you haven't had to bring out Swampert alot in testing, but have you considered other bulky Dive/Protect/Substitute mons in the slot - like Suicune or Milotic? I guess the question is how valuable is Shell Bell Endeavor compared to no 4x weakness and maybe a little more bulk. I'm thinking things like the CB normal types and all 4 Sceptile sets having a chance to OHKO.
 
So I have decided on a few changes on the leaderboard in which I will expand upon and offer my explanation as to why I reached to those particular decisions. As you should know, traditionally, the Battle Tower / Maison / Tree threads have been consistent on not allowing things such as genned Pokemon and "legal hacks". However, due to the hardware limitations of the GBA, I decided to allow certain glitches only under certain conditions to make sure that the level of play is fair among users who do emulator or retails streaks

  • On allowing certain glitches on the leaderboard:
    This has been a topic being discussed for a while before I took control of the thread. Some people mostly relied on Pomeg Glitch to obtain Pokemon that were otherwise unobtainable outside Pokemon Emerald without trading. So I decided to open the floodgates and allow Pomeg Glitching but only on certain circumstances:
    • Pomeg Glitch will only be allowed for these specific cases:
      • Glitching a breedable parent: I will be allowing users to Pomeg Glitch Pokemon such as Chansey or Snorlax, as long as the glitched Pokemon was used to breed a new offspring. I don't think there will be an issue with this rule since glitched Pokemon come with random IVs and you'll want to breed them anyways to get the required egg moves and IVs.
    • Pomeg Glitch will not be allowed for:
      • Lv.50 Tyranitar and Dragonite: Goes without saying. The AI is locked out from using these Pokemon against you at Lv.50 and you're basically gaining an advantage against the AI and let alone by the fact that you can't obtain a Lv.50 Tyranitar or Dragonite under normal circumstances. I will not be allowing these Pokemon to participate on streaks for Lv.50
      • The use of glitch MissingNo Pokemon: I won't allow users to use Question Marks with priority OHKOs move and any weird glitches that affect the game which otherwise wouldn't occur under normal circumstances.

  • The Pike Glitch:
    As you should know, there is a glitch that you can activate on the Battle Pikewhich will create a duplicate of the Pokemon in the 2nd slot, replacing permanently the lead Pokemon on your party. However, this clone will have any move, that was not shared with the previous Pokemon, replaced with Sketch. The potential of this glitch is extremely high since it can allow you to use moves that are locked in one-time move tutors (such as Substitute) and regain forgotten egg moves. However, to keep things fair, there will be restrictions on the use of this glitch:
    • The Pike Glitch will only be allowed for these specific cases:
      • Sketching legal egg move combinations: As long as the egg move combination you plan to sketch can be obtained under normal circumstances, it will be allowed. Please be mindful of the restrictions on this generation (Male Pokemon are only able to pass egg moves) so don't try illegal combinations such as Drill Peck + Whirlwind Skarmory.
      • Recover a forgotten pre-level move that cannot be recovered with the Heart Scale tutor: You forgot to stop evolving your Metang at Lv.45 and you can't teach Meteor Mash now? No problem. As long as the move is legal under the Pokemon's moveset, I'll allow the use of the Pike glitch on this case. Please take into account that this will not be allowed for moves that exceed the level 50 requirements (No Agility Metagross or Sheer Cold Articuno on Lv.50)
      • Level-up moves that can be inherited: Moves like Megahorn on Rhydon and Heracross (If the move is learnable by all the same Pokemon on their evolution line by level up, and both male and female parents know such move, it can be passed down as an egg move).
      • Repeated use of moves that are locked behind move tutors who will only teach one Pokemon per save: Make as many Substitutes as you want but be careful since this is a Double-Edge pun.
    • The Pike Glitch will not be allowed for:
      • Mimicking event moves: Goes without saying. I won't allow things such as Wish Blissey or Lickitung to be used if you're sketching an event move. These event Pokemon were generated differently from how the game creates a Wild / Stationary / Egg Pokemon. This does not mean that I will close the door to someone who actually has a legitimate Wish Chansey or something similar. However, you'll have to present some sort of proof that you were present during the PCNY or Pokemon Rocks America events.
      • Mimicking XD purify exclusive moves: Pokemon from XD Gale of Darkness are Nature Locked which means that due to these mechanics, most Pokemon from XD cannot be flawless or even 5 IVs. This would give users an unfair advantage over people who legitimately RNG'd XD Pokemon and have to deal with the limited IV spreads from the game. As an example, I won't allow the Pike glitch to make an Articuno from FR/LG mimick a Gales Articuno's purify moves.
      • Illegal moves: No Aeroblast Salamence or Tombstony Golem. Pretty self-explanatory, isn't it?

In addition to this, I'll reserve myself the right to decline streaks that involve glitches not being covered in here that I feel they are granting too many unfair advantages from their use.​

  • Streaks using genned or hacked Pokemon will not be allowed:
    Goes without saying, I'm not allowing streaks that used Pokemon generated from external tools and cheat codes. Additionally, if I find out that you're lying on this, any streak you might have previously posted will be removed and I will not accept any new submissions from users who break this rule.

  • Please don't forget to be respectul of each other and don't flame or harass others:
    Remember that there's an actual human being behind a screen. Please don't forget about the regular Orange Forum rules as well. If you are suspicious about someone who might have cheated their way on a streak, please be sure to offer insightful information as to why you're calling them out without resorting to personal attacks. We want to generate as much discussion as possible because you can always take something positive from a negative event and the point is to encourage and educate users on this thread.

  • I reserve myself the right to reject sufficiently dubious streaks even without absolute proof of cheating:
    If I feel that your streak is too suspicious and I'm not particularly convinced on your explanations as to how you reached a certain streak number, then I will not add such streak under any circumstance. This is not a voting matter or a court of law. Even if there's no absolute proof that this streak was obtained via save stating or save restoring, if I don't trust it, it will not be added. Take into account that there's a lot of veteran users in here who will question you at their free will if you're not convincing enough on your explanations. Having detailed write ups or recorded video proof samples (with various rounds played in-between) will always work in your favor.

  • RNG abused Factory streaks will not be posted on the leaderboard:
    I had to think a lot on this but I decided not to include Factory streaks with RNG'd rentals. While there's still a certain amount of luck involved since you still have to decide on what moves you'll choose and hope you don't get haxxed. RNG manipulating rentals eliminates one of the random factors which gives players the ability to choose the most favorable options of rental Pokemon generated by the game. The fact that you can intentionally pick a certain amount of frames with the most optimal pool of Pokemon and the AI's party (for swaps), this gives a huge advantage over other users who published a streak without manipulating any of these factors. I'll later check the Factory leaderboards and remove the ones that were RNG abused.
    • I know some people discussed about having a different leaderboard exclusive for RNG manipulated rentals. Personally I feel this wouldn't be a race on who can reach the top but rather a reward for the people who are the best on timing their button presses. I'm not sure how it could work out but I'm 100% open to suggestions for this. I'm willing to work on adding a leaderboard for RNG abused streaks depending on the interest.
    • Goes without saying, you are more than welcome to discuss Factory RNG here. Just for clarification: I'm just disallowing RNG manipulated streaks being posted on the main leaderboard, but feel free to publish frames or any discussion. I know Factory can be extremely frustrating and I have no issues with users manipulating it if all they care for is to get the Gold Symbol.
 
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I like the idea of a team that tries to capitalize on the unique mechanics that the Arena offers. IMO Gengar is an S tier PKMN in the Arena, whether in an offensive role or a stall-oriented one like this.

I think a fast sub user is amazing for this strategy, and Gengar is perfect for the role. My question is isn't Gengar beat out by anything that just spams attacks? I feel like if you face even something a trivial as a Jolteon it could spell really bad news. While trying to win by judging is interesting, it also seems like it makes you weak to poor matchup. I feel like you want to avoid having both you and your opponents PKMN dying after the first round, because you never know what will come out next. Does lapras actually consistently beat out anything with super effective attacks in the second slot? 3 opponent PKMN that all like to just use attacking moves seems like bad news for the team. How do you work around all out attackers I'm curious.

I know you haven't had to bring out Swampert alot in testing, but have you considered other bulky Dive/Protect/Substitute mons in the slot - like Suicune or Milotic? I guess the question is how valuable is Shell Bell Endeavor compared to no 4x weakness and maybe a little more bulk. I'm thinking things like the CB normal types and all 4 Sceptile sets having a chance to OHKO.
I'm sorry not adequately explaining the strategy. In fact, all-attacker opponent, even with super-effective moves, are ironically the amongst the best matchups I can have! To start, if you use Perish Song on turn 1 of an Arena "segment", the Pokemon don't die at the end of that segment yet, but rather after making their first move in the next segment.

Let's take your Jolteon example. Gengar survives a Thunderbolt (or outspeeds) and gets off Perish Song. That's really all it has to do, I'm fine with being 1 behind in the early game. Then Lapras comes in, survives a Thunderbolt guaranteed because of Shell Armor, AND in guaranteed range where it can still use a Sub AFTER the Thunderbolt when Jolteon dies to Perish Song (it might be case that I have to Protect before and/or after the Substitute, but that's okay since they die to Perish Song anyway; no judging needed).

That's the crux: Lapras having a Substitute up against the next fresh opponent. The next opponent then hits the sub (or does nothing meaningful) while I use Dive, gaining Leftovers in the process, giving me an HP advantage already. Second turn they miss whatever they do, and I hit them with Dive. Then I already win the matchup usually (even if their first move is super effective and mine is NOT not-very-effective at the same time), and all I have to do is Protect for even more Leftovers gain. Then out comes the third Pokemon: if I can Perish Song, I win the battle guaranteed after Protect and sacking Lapras. Note that in any event where Lapras' Substitute is not broken on the turn I select Dive, the match is also won guaranteed.

I selected Swampert for its low Speed and access to Endeavor for flexibility in pinch scenarios, but you're definitely right about other bulky Water fillers. I'm considering Dig Steelix, EndureSalac Medicham, the obvious Latios, Suicune and many more Pokemon still to see what's best. I hope this clarifies your question!

Of course, there's still many other things that could go wrong, such as stuff using sleep-inducing move or Confuse Ray against Lapras on the transition from my first to my second Pokemon. Sadly Gengar doesn't have Safeguard like Wigglytuff/Altaria/Dewgong do, but these can't get off the Perish Song nor fend off STAB Fighting types as reliably as Gengar.

EDIT: writing this made me have the idea of using Perish Song Marowak instead and shift Lapras from being specially bulky to physically bulky. I might even try to run a NON-Thick Club Marowak here, which is pretty unique. Thanks for making me have this idea :)
 
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