The De-Uberization.

[Lyfsaho]

The Uber Tier has long since the beginnings of d/p been a Tier left virtually untouched and little tested in the metagame; However the repetitivity of the OU-metagame as well as the recent placing of Deoxys-E have sparked this discussion immensely as of late.

Let us, first and foremostly, list the so-called "debatable Ubers" as of now:

Deoxys-E (Speed form)
Deoxys-LG (Defense form)
Wobbuffet (side note) For those who don't know, Wobbuffet's shadow tag ability does NOT STAY ACTIVE after he leaves play.
Manaphy
Mew

There may be one or two others, but those are significantly farther away from having chances of being demoted.

Now, why can't we just go slowly, you ask, and see how the Deoxys-E testing goes before turning to other Ubers? Actually, Obi summed this argument up pretty well, and I'll give credit to him here and just quote:

Allow everything that's under consideration at once. You're allowed to reban things in stages. Imagine if Blissey and Salamence were banned. First we allow Salamence, and Specsmence kills everything (and Empoleon, Heatran, and the like aren't considered to be both good enough and reliable enough), so we decide to ban it. If we had just allowed it with Blissey, things might have turned out differently.

This, when you think about it, makes a great deal of sense. Take the very current example of Deoxys-E, whose main argument to stay uber is that it has but a handful of proven efficient counters - Would we still contemplate his tier if Deoxys-LG and Wobbuffet were available in the OU metagame? Very doubtful.

Essentially, the suggestion is to test more than one of those at once, for a defined period, and reban if they turn out to be broken and lead to an extreme overcentralization of the metagame, or let them stay OU's if they effectively broaden the metagame.

Now, a gigantic discussion like this cannot take place in one thread without the eruption of chaos; I would hence suggest that if any member in particular feels strongly about why one of the 5 pokemon above deserve OU status, AND has the required knowledge to back it up, he or she should feel free to contact me via PM or post in this topic so I can link his / her thread about the discussion of said pokemon to the front page here where people will be able to compare and overview all 5 at the same time.
An example of this method is given with Deoxys-E, just click on him and you'll be redirected to the discussion about him.

General opinions on the matter of de-Uberization can naturally be posted in this topic.

Lastly, there will be a poll to delve into public opionion. Please, take the time to look these over and think before you vote on instinct.

Thank you, and happy arguing.

 

[Invective]

lol. deuberization. nice word.

but why is deoxys lg on the list? didnt we decide he was uber in the thread by footballfanatic?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35137

and how do we vote that they should stay as ubers?

 

[Age of Kings]

Deoxys-LG (Defense form)
Wobbuffet
Manaphy
Mew

These were never debatable, iirc. The debated ones are currently Ho-oh and Dewless Latis.

Finally, an all-uber thread. There's far too many of these. Just because they're lesser used ubers doesn't mean they should be thrown in OU.

 

[Jediment]

How is Ho-oh debatable?

 

[Kira]

Also if Manaphy was in OU, the % of rain dance teams would skyrocket...
Rest + Hydration + Rain + Stab = an amazing attacker that can abuse hydration and rest.

 

[Raikou]

Look what a can of worms unbanning Deoxys opened. :)

I wouldn't mind testing everything on that list except Deoxys-LG (a super Cresselia) and Wobbuffet. If Arena Trap is enough to make a very mediocre-to-horrible Pokemon such as Dugtrio see OU play, then a souped up version of it in Shadow Tag on something like Wobbuffet is just complete cheapness. Combined with the ability to reflect back the damage of any trapped sweeper for a free KO or encore stat uppers and walls for a free switch to any counter with no penalty? I don't see how that adds anything to the metagame but another annoying, borderline broken blob that everyone hates using but has to (see Blissey). It would basically be the end of any choice item users, because the minute you send one out, it is trapped and killed by something that doesn't go down in 1 hit like Dugtrio.

Anything else could possibly make the OU tier more fun. Wobbuffet just makes it more annoying and is pretty much more broken than any of the above mentioned.

 

[RBG]

uhh.... Wobbufett is deadly when played right. It fights what it wants, when it wants, and has an insane amount of HP to back of its moves.

Mew can do almost ANYTHING and you never know what to expect when fighting it. The Ultmate BP, it can pass +2 Speed, +2 Attack, +2 Sp. Attack, +2 Sp. Def., not to mention, it can use it itself and attacks with a wide variety of moves that practically insures that no two mews you fight are the same.

Manaphy needs to be tested a little more. It has 100/100/100 Defenses and can Hydrorest, but no perma-rain in OU means that it requires either a partner in DB or use as another moveslot giving it 2 left, and Tail Glow takes up another. It does better in Uber than OU because it has perm-rain their, but that doesn't mean it can't be in OU.

Unfortunetly, I can't say anything about any Deoxys, not being knowledgeable in them.

 

[jujuomi]

All of those have a vast movepool or the ability to shadowtag, encore, coat/counter away. Manpahy IMO is debatable, but it was put into ubers recently for a reason.

EDIT: mew also learns barrier which is + 2 df.

 

[Macho Machamp]

Also if Manaphy was in OU, the % of rain dance teams would skyrocket...
Rest + Hydration + Rain + Stab = an amazing attacker that can abuse hydration and rest.

Not to mention it has Tail Glow. I think only Wobbufet should be De-Uberized because it is fairly easy to counter. Mew has too many stat boosters that it can pass and it is too versatile. I'd rather not talk about the deoxys and manaphy.

 

[Jediment]

How do you counter Wobbuffet if you can't switch out of it? Shadow Tag is the whole reason it's an Uber - it shatters the very foundation of Pokemon battling by effectively turning your opponent into an NPC against his/her will. Being forced to stay in and repeat the same attack is just so utterly game breaking. It's hard to realize.

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

Personally, Mew shouldn't be classified as a Uber. Neither should Wobbuffet or Wynaut. Wynaut and Wobbuffet can do nothing but wall and reflect. Status attacks takes it down easily. Mew is too complicated with movesets and hard to predict, though, does terrible in Ubers, but good in OU. Strangely enough. The Deoxys forms are all Uber in my opinion. Only played against Speed Deoxys forms, all of which have swept me... there's a good reason as to what's banned and what's not.

 

[Raikou]

Not to mention it has Tail Glow. I think only Wobbufet should be De-Uberized because it is fairly easy to counter. Mew has too many stat boosters that it can pass and it is too versatile. I'd rather not talk about the deoxys and manaphy.

How do you counter Wobbuffet exactly? Nothing can switch out against it. After it kills your first Pokemon, the only way to kill it is to revenge kill with a status inducer.

 

[Macho Machamp]

I remember versing Amazing Ampharos on Shoddy Battle multiple times when he was using his Wobbufet. It is true that it took a sacrifice to take it down but after that, it was all fun and games. I don't want it in OU though because of the fact that there might be 2 Wobbufets facing each other.

It's basically a one trick pony though.

 

[DemonOfWrath]

Statusing Wobb doesn't work really. Let's say you Thunder Wave it for example, you get Encored and then they could switch into say a Garchomp with Sub and SD, if Encore doesn't end very quickly that can be an easy gg. The problem is how do you counter it without losing some of your team?

 

[Bogmire]

I remember versing Amazing Ampharos on Shoddy Battle multiple times when he was using his Wobbufet. It is true that it took a sacrifice to take it down but after that, it was all fun and games. I don't want it in OU though because of the fact that there might be 2 Wobbufets facing each other.

shadow tag is different in DP so two wobbuffets can switch out of each other. and struggle does 1/4 damage now so they can't use leftovers to heal off struggle damage.

 

[Jediment]

Wynaut and Wobbuffet can do nothing but wall and reflect.

Do you even know how Wobbuffet works?

By saying that Mew does "terrible" in Ubers means you aren't very good at Ubers. Even there Mew can be quite dangerous.

 

[Lee]

It should probably be noted that Manaphy was OU just a few months ago. He was tested for a few months, and was found to be too powerful. So 4 months down the line, why would we test him again?

I think only Wobbufet should be De-Uberized because it is fairly easy to counter.

No, it really isn't. Unless you have U-Turn/Baton Pass/Taunt on all your Pokemon.

Lets leave it at Deoxys-E, although lets not forget that Deoxys-E isn't set in stone yet. He's only OU on Shoddy. To the rest of the world, he's still an uber.

In fact, lets discuss sending Celebi to uber. ^_^

And why is Mew on that list? MEW?! Are you insane?

 

[Lyfsaho]

Statusing Wobb doesn't work really. Let's say you Thunder Wave it for example, you get Encored and then they could switch into say a Garchomp with Sub and SD, if Encore doesn't end very quickly that can be an easy gg.

Its called... switching out. O_o

all your opponent can do in that instance is get the sub up, or one sd in.

 

[Raikou]

I remember versing Amazing Ampharos on Shoddy Battle multiple times when he was using his Wobbufet. It is true that it took a sacrifice to take it down but after that, it was all fun and games. I don't want it in OU though because of the fact that there might be 2 Wobbufets facing each other.

It's basically a one trick pony though.

You just admitted that it's uncounterable and must be revenge killed which is pretty much the definition of broken. The only other truly uncounterable poke is Deoxys-FR and it can be 1 shot by quick attack for that reason.

To the above poster, you can't switch out, that's the whole point. You must sit there repeating whatever move while they get a free switch, which for some Pokemon is all they need to set up.

 

[jujuomi]

I want to see garchomp escape SHADOW TAG.

 

[kamikaen]

Let's test Arceus in standard! Well, I guess he would be too broken, specifically, the SD killer, so let's allow Giratina as well. Hmm, both are too powerful? Well, we could try allowing something like Dialga in to knock Girat down a notch or two... do you get where I'm going with this?

Manaphy has been tested, but what else in ubers would there be to test it with? Palkia? Dialga? We might want a thread to have it out about Mew, but if Manaphy is banned, mew would be as well. Wobuffett would definitely be overcentralizing, I don't understand how that's debatable.

 

[IggyBot]

Poll needs a "None of them" option in my opinion. I'm all for testing them, but I still think think they're all good enough to leave in ubers and let the metagame be.

Deoxys-LG: Think Cresselia. Now, think Cresselia with Recover instead of Moonlight / Rest. Now add in Spikes, Knock Off, Toxic Spikes, Cosmic Power, Thunderwave, ect. Those reasons alone are more than enough to leave it uber in my eyes.

Deoxys-E: I'm leaving this alone, I've stated all of my thoughts several times and I'm just going to stop arguing on this.

Mew: Mew has good all around stats, and the ability to Baton Pass any +2 stat boost. It's highly unpredictable, having a gigantic movepool, and the ability to do pretty much anything. While I have a softspot for Mew (and other pixie pokemon) I still think the little guy is way to good for OU.

Manaphy: We've already tested this, nothing to say here.

Wobbuffet: Shadow Tag is a great ability. Not only that, Wobbuffet gets to choose who he traps. Great HP combined with Encore, Mirror Coat and Counter are extremely threatening to every team, no matter what you're using because Wobbuffet has NO COUNTERS.

This is how I stand as of right now. I don't mind testing at all, and if I get proved wrong, well, then I'm wrong.

 

[Macho Machamp]

shadow tag is different in DP so two wobbuffets can switch out of each other. and struggle does 1/4 damage now so they can't use leftovers to heal off struggle damage.

Oh. I didn't know about the shadow tag thing. I'd rather not have it in OU still just because of the fact that everybody would be using it and make the game more boring.

 

[Lyfsaho]

LOL, does anyone know Wobbuffet?

Shadow Tag de-activates once he leaves play.

 

[Macho Machamp]

You just admitted that it's uncounterable and must be revenge killed which is pretty much the definition of broken. The only other truly uncounterable poke is Deoxys-FR and it can be 1 shot by quick attack for that reason.

I know. I'm not trying to argue with you or anything. I'm just trying to saw that it's a one trick pony. I also said it myself that I didn't want it in OU anyways.