Unpopular opinions

[LonelyGaruga]

That explains it. You're approaching it with a speedrun-like strategy.

I'm routing out a low RNG run so Croconaw is already at level 24 after Rival #2 due to Bayleef's Razor Leaf (need to be 24 to guarantee a 3HKO with Fury Cutter, though stat EXP might lessen that).

Okay, so first, I provide calcs that show that Alakazam needs a damage range to 1v1 Miltank even at a level advantage, and you completely ignore that in favor of focusing on the calcs that shows a fresh Abra has nowhere near "prime Mike Tyson" levels of damage when it's captured with it having half of Croconaw's damage on Miltank. Like yeah, no shit Abra loses at level 10, but it still can't guarantee a win at level 21 either! Then when I provide calcs showing it has a 20% chance to lose to a Rattata, instead of addressing that you say I'm trying to route a speedrun, when I've stated the stipulation of routing out RNG. Now, yes, the goal is "minimum turn count", for lack of a better way to measure efficiency. Going fast does matter. But also minimum RNG, and that entails trying to identify the best grinding methods for power leveling through bad matchups, and when it's more turn efficient to just catch another Pokémon and invest in it. Battle items outside balls are also restricted, and unless it turns out to be actually impossible, no player KOs too. As I said earlier, for R/B I had Clefable on the Bulbasaur route (also Dugtrio by the time I scrapped it) and Dugtrio and Zapdos for the Squirtle route (full party was Squirtle/Spearow/Dugtrio/Zapdos, E4 team was Blastoise/Zapdos). I developed this guideline playing that Pokemon-style Touhou game I mentioned some posts ago talking about fangames, where it ended up with a party of 5 for the first credits roll (that one has gen VI EXP Share though).

Now, for GSC, Geodude is absolutely the efficient pick for Falkner on a Chikorita/Cyndaquil start by these guidelines. It's faster to grind it to Rock Throw than grind the starters to beat Falkner without luck. Anything past that, I didn't route, as Totodile can beat Falkner by itself more efficiently, so it was the clear starter here. I strongly doubt Feraligatr solo is the actual most efficient way to go (Will being the most noticeable potential roadblock, would require a lot of grinding for a consistent itemless solo), but I do need to route it out to completion to be sure. What I am sure about is that Abra is not worth the time to capture and grind under this guideline when Croconaw is already in the low 20s by the time it's available. That is in fact underleveled.

To recap what I said about Abra before.

Abra line is overrated for in-game runs. It's consistently rated as a high-top tier Pokémon in the in-game tier lists when it's typically underleveled, requires switch training to grind, lacks coverage, and is very squishy physically.

GSC Abra doesn't require switch grinding and does have coverage. This is the only game that's true of it. It still needs 10+ levels to even try to participate in the gym it's next to and has a 1/5 chance to lose to a Rattata on the same route it's caught on. Very underleveled and very squishy. But hey, once you grind it up, you can bring it to Whitney in the same time frame Feraligatr has Olvine done. That does seem riveting, doesn't it?

 

[Worldie]

GSC Abra doesn't require switch grinding and does have coverage. This is the only game that's true of it. It still needs 10+ levels to even try to participate in the gym it's next to and has a 1/5 chance to lose to a Rattata on the same route it's caught on. Very underleveled and very squishy. But hey, once you grind it up, you can bring it to Whitney in the same time frame Feraligatr has Olvine done. That does seem riveting, doesn't it?

I think you're missing the whole point of what ingame tierlists work.

As speedrunner myself, I do agree with what Volt-Ikazuchi said: you're thinking on a speedrunner perspective.
And on that perspective, in no game there's any reason to just not overlevel your starter and faceroll the game with it.
Literally, it's the best way to do any game until SwSh, and only cause SwSh gives access to much stronger options right off the bat due to the wild area and how stone evolutions work.

PLUS, pokemon games are a joke difficulty wise, you can literally use any pokemon and win as long as you have more than 3 functional braincells (which apparently my nephew lacks), they don't need "tier lists" for that purpose.

The point of "in game tierlists" is just to provide a effort-reward ratio.
If you want to use "pokemon X" in your playthrough, the tierlist shows the effort-reward ratio: a S tier poke will likely carry the game on its own (not a case starters are almost always there), a A tier pokemon will usually require a tiny bit of investment and then still be capable of carrying the game on its own or partecipate in any battle without feeling like deadweight.
In the case of "Abra", the reason it's so high in the lists is cause if you want to use it, once it's past the first couple levels, it's so strong it will never feel deadweight and can even singlehandedly win the game, so it's recommended to get it.

They are NOT a speed list. There'd be no point to have one, just overlevel your starter, it's faster than literally everything else.

 

[Sonikku A]

Or manip to get immediate lvl 50 Raikou for HGSS after tower, then the lvl 60 Magikarp

 

[LonelyGaruga]

I think you're missing the whole point of what ingame tierlists work.

As speedrunner myself, I do agree with what Volt-Ikazuchi said: you're thinking on a speedrunner perspective.
And on that perspective, in no game there's any reason to just not overlevel your starter and faceroll the game with it.

I spent a bulk of that post you didn't quote explaining how accounting for unfavorable RNG, no in-battle items, and avoiding party member KOs does typically entail constructing an actually functional team and not just facerolling the game by overleveling the starter. GSC Abra probably is a top 5 Pokemon for those games but to call it the most busted Pokemon for in-game in the whole series is exactly the kind of overrated nonsense I'm talking about here. It's strong, but the strongest for in-game ever? Nah. And GSC is its prime. It's way worse in any other game.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I spent a bulk of that post you didn't quote explaining how accounting for unfavorable RNG, no in-battle items, and avoiding party member KOs does typically entail constructing an actually functional team and not just facerolling the game by overleveling the starter. GSC Abra probably is a top 5 Pokemon for those games but to call it the most busted Pokemon for in-game in the whole series is exactly the kind of overrated nonsense I'm talking about here. It's strong, but the strongest for in-game ever? Nah. And GSC is its prime. It's way worse in any other game.

IGTL's are more geared towards casual runs. You're getting caught up in definitions and semantics of something that you don't have experience in.

To put it bluntly, this discussion is meaningless because you keep trying to smash in a square peg in a round hole.

Anyone that has actual experience in IGTL's will know by the eye test that Abra is a really good in-game mon. Since you don't, you immediately opened the Showdown calculator.

It'd be like me pulling up in the OU thread and calling Landorus overrated because you can just nail it with an Ice Beam or whatever. I don't have the credentials for that. Hell, I don't even know what tier Landorus is in.

 

[LonelyGaruga]

IGTL's are more geared towards casual runs.

Exactly why it's useless for actual efficiency and why a Pokémon like Abra is supposedly the most amazing in-game Pokémon ever. Also what even is supposed to be the diss about using Pokémon Showdown's damage calculator here? I use that for literally all of my routing and confirm the results in-game once I find the best solution. A fresh Abra having an approximate 20% chance to lose to a wild Rattata is a mathematical fact, using Showdown to demonstrate this is just providing mathematical proof of that.

 

[Siggu]

I personally just take the In-Game Tier List as "how much does this Pokémon trivialize the game?", but ultimately never use it for playthroughs - especially since I rarely restart games.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Exactly why it's useless for actual efficiency and why a Pokémon like Abra is supposedly the most amazing in-game Pokémon ever. Also what even is supposed to be the diss about using Pokémon Showdown's damage calculator here? I use that for literally all of my routing and confirm the results in-game once I find the best solution. A fresh Abra having an approximate 20% chance to lose to a wild Rattata is a mathematical fact, using Showdown to demonstrate this is just providing mathematical proof of that.

To put it bluntly, this discussion is meaningless because you keep trying to smash in a square peg in a round hole.

Yep. Just like I said. Broaden your horizons young fella. Maybe one day you'll get it.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

The difficulty of reaching the point of being good is factored into how good a Pokemon is in-game, even on the in-game tier lists, right? It's why theoretically really strong stuff like pseudo-legendaries are often ranked low, it's just too much of a hassle to get them to the point where they can start kicking ass. Besides being less extreme, I don't see how this Abra business is fundamentally different.

 

[Nokocchi]

I don't see how this Abra business is fundamentally different.

It's not hard at all. Get 200 Coins (100 Coins in Crystal but it's level 5) to buy an abra in the game corner, teach it the very much immediately affordable Ice Punch TM available right across the street, and then go to town against the large variety of Flying and Grass types that appear in the areas near Goldenrod until you evolve into Kadabra a little bit later(might have to switch a bit in Crystal like you do with Magikarp in Gen I). Alakazam isn't even needed, Kadabra alone can carry its weight for most of the game.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

It's not hard at all. Get 200 Coins (100 Coins in Crystal but it's level 5) to buy an abra in the game corner, teach it the very much immediately affordable Ice Punch TM available right across the street, and then go to town against the large variety of Flying and Grass types that appear in the areas near Goldenrod until you evolve into Kadabra a little bit later(might have to switch a bit in Crystal like you do with Magikarp in Gen I). Alakazam isn't even needed, Kadabra alone can carry its weight for most of the game.

LoneyGaruga was referring to Abra across all games, not just GS.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

(100 Coins in Crystal but it's level 5)

You can still get an Lv. 10 Abra in the wild on Route 34 in Crystal.

LoneyGaruga was referring to Abra across all games, not just GS.

No, the topic was explicitly about GSC Abra.

The difficulty of reaching the point of being good is factored into how good a Pokemon is in-game, even on the in-game tier lists, right? It's why theoretically really strong stuff like pseudo-legendaries are often ranked low, it's just too much of a hassle to get them to the point where they can start kicking ass. Besides being less extreme, I don't see how this Abra business is fundamentally different.

That's exactly what sets GSC Abra apart from the other 4 straight gens of it being S-Tier despite the Abra phase. It can immediately contribute.

Look at some of the trainers in and around Goldenrod City.

Spoiler

A mon with base 105 SpA firing off 75BP SE attacks at complete mooks like these just can't be struggling. GSC Abra has no deadweight phase and it's well-known it is the best Psychic mon by a landslide in a region that gets folded by Psychics.

 

[LonelyGaruga]

Yep. Just like I said. Broaden your horizons young fella. Maybe one day you'll get it.

That's quite the hypocritical take given you've provided minimal arguments beyond deflection and mockery.

No, the topic was explicitly about GSC Abra.

May as well throw this out on the topic of in-game: Abra line is overrated for in-game runs. It's consistently rated as a high-top tier Pokémon in the in-game tier lists when it's typically underleveled, requires switch training to grind, lacks coverage, and is very squishy physically. Even in GSC where it gets elemental punches and can train itself, it comes at level 10 when Whitney's team is 18-20 and you can reasonably have a starter in the early 20s at this point, so there's little practical application to invest in Abra if your goal is efficiency.

I was in fact talking about Abra as a whole, GSC gets special mention for being the highest point in the series for it, and thus would be the most contentious. I have no issue agreeing GSC Abra is probably top 5 for GSC, but the best Pokémon in any in-game run? Not even the best Pokémon in GSC. When people exaggerate its performance and say things like Whitney is its sole bad matchup, yeah, it's safe to say that it's overrated. It's good, but not that good, no.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

That's quite the hypocritical take given you've provided minimal arguments beyond deflection and mockery.

I've provided more than enough arguments. I claimed GSC Abra to be the best in-game mon from an IGTL perspective, you disagreed on a speedrun perspective and we've been on this nonsensical discussion ever since.

This argument should've ended about 20 posts ago when it was obvious that we aren't using the same parameters. Yet, despite knowing that, you'd rather insist on it.

I understand that you don't agree with IGTLs as a concept. That is perfectly fair, but that's also a whole other discussion that doesn't even involve Abra tbh.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I've provided more than enough arguments. I claimed GSC Abra to be the best in-game mon from an IGTL perspective, you disagreed on a speedrun perspective and we've been on this nonsensical discussion ever since.

You said it's the most broken in-game Pokemon ever and that it didn't need much if any training, then backtracked and said yeah it does actually need training, then backtracked further and said that no, Totodile is stronger, and spent the rest of your posts calling LG a fool.

That is barely even a single argument.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

You said it's the most broken in-game Pokemon ever and that it didn't need much if any training, then backtracked and said yeah it does actually need training, then backtracked further and said that no, Totodile is stronger, and spent the rest of your posts calling LG a fool.

That is barely even a single argument.

There was zero backtracking. Let me try to make myself even clearer. Important points will be bolded.

All I want for christmas is a WTF button.

Bro, GSC Abra is literally the most busted in-game mon EVER.

It being slightly underleveled is irrelevant when it's immediately throwing punches like prime Mike Tyson off 105 SpA with breakneck speed compared to everything at that point in the game. Johto's level curve means it's not severely underleveled either and there are plenty of trainers for it to catch up.
Did you know Psychic runs through Johto and Kanto like a hot knife through butter?

That was a straight up crazy take.

After that, LG posted calcs involving an Lv. 10 Abra. I clarified that obviously taking on a tough boss 8 levels below is just stupid. I did not backtrack since, as you can see, that was addressed in my first post.

Then as the argument went on, LG made it clear that they were thinking on a Speedrun perspective. For obvious reasons, especially in the OI subforum, when we think in-game, we don't think about speedruns, we think about IGTL.

On speedruns, Toto is stronger, but again, I wasn't talking about those.

Like I said, no backtracking.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I don't know what criteria the IGTLs use to determine who the best is, but if the criteria doesn't boil down to "the Pokemon that's easiest to unga your way through the game with is the best" then the whole project and discussion surrounding it sounds like a largely worthless endeavor. If Abra takes more effort to use than Totodile, which from what I can gather is one of the most bunga starters in the series, then it's not the best, simple as that.

I don't know much about GS or who's actually stronger, but LG is providing actual justifications for their arguments. You're just saying "well that's not what I was talking about" and leaving it at that. It's not very convincing.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

You're just saying "well that's not what I was talking about" and leaving it at that. It's not very convincing.

Because there can't be a conclusion when there is no standard in an evaluation. It's like if we were playing chess but I'm using monopoly pieces and you're using checkers pieces. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

I don't know what criteria the IGTLs use to determine who the best is

I don't know much about GS or who's actually stronger

Then stay in your lane instead of making things even messier for no reason.
I've seen more coherent discussions today looking for SV leaks in goddamn 4chan. That's beyond absurd.

Don't bother replying, matter of fact, go binge-watch One Piece from the beginning.

 

[Magcargo]

Don't know what exactly is going on here, but this in-fighting is great entertainment!

Uh, as for unpopular opinions, Hydro Pump and Fire Blast are bad moves, particularly if they are used as a Pokemon's main STAB. Due to their accuracy, they actually aren't much stronger than their weaker counterparts on average (Fire Blast has 93.5 BP on average, while Hydro pump has 88 BP on average) and their lower PP makes them worse in longer matches and in-game runs since they can't be spammed as frequently, further compounded by their lower accuracy forcing you to use the move more if they miss.

Similarly, I don't like other powerful moves with drawbacks like Flare Blitz, Close Combat,, etc. Flare Blitz's recoil is really annoying to deal with, espcially when compounded by additional chip damage like Sand, Rocky Helmet, Stealth Rock, etc. Close Combat is a bit better, but the lowered defenses can be really annoying when used by a faster Pokemon since it makes it less capable of taking neutral hits and puts it in KO ranges easier. Flare Blitz's recoil and Close Combat's low PP also makes them annoying to use in in-game since it will force you to use additional resources. Overall, I suppose these moves are more balanced by having drawbacks to make up for their higher power, but I usually opt for weaker choices in in-game runs since they don't require me to jump through additional hoops like using more Full Restores and what-not.

 

[Cobalt Empoleon]

*desperately racking my brain for a fresh Unpopular Opinion to rescue this thread*

I actually like it when my favourite Pokemon are kinda weak and shafted by the devs in new gens. there's something much more satisfying to me about making a mon work with limited options rather than having it get access to a new gimmick or the latest generically powerful move/ability/etc

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Because there can't be a conclusion when there is no standard in an evaluation. It's like if we were playing chess but I'm using monopoly pieces and you're using checkers pieces. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

Then stay in your lane instead of making things even messier for no reason.
I've seen more coherent discussions today looking for SV leaks in goddamn 4chan. That's beyond absurd.

Don't bother replying, matter of fact, go binge-watch One Piece from the beginning.

If the standard by which something is evaluated is bad, then those evaluations will also be bad. Garbage in, garbage out. LG provided some reasons for why the IGTL's evaluation method is garbage that I found convincing. Either give an convincing rebuttal beyond "it's different and everyone assumed you were talking about IGTL (I didn't assume that)", or at the very least stop being a dismissive jerk.

 

[LonelyGaruga]

I've provided more than enough arguments. I claimed GSC Abra to be the best in-game mon from an IGTL perspective, you disagreed on a speedrun perspective and we've been on this nonsensical discussion ever since.

You made a claim and provided very literally zero backing for it. Psychic isn't even the dominant type in the IGTL despite your claim that Psychic is the one that cuts through GSC, Normal and Water track better.

You put out trash trainers on route 34 as proof that Abra can "immediately contribute". Contributing to an efficient run is not wasting time on optional fodder that barely provide any EXP. An immediate contribution to efficiency is taking out that required trainer to reach Whitney, something Abra has a 0% chance of pulling off, and Croconaw can do effortlessly with no additional grinding involved.

Also uh, Diglett outspeeds Abra at an equal level unless Abra has an above average Speed IV, and the level 14 one has a range to 2HKO Abra with Scratch (guaranteed if the first one outpaces Abra) while being a range for Ice Punch to KO. That fodder with the two Digletts isn't even a reliable matchup for Abra.

After that, LG posted calcs involving an Lv. 10 Abra.

--

Then as the argument went on, LG made it clear that they were thinking on a Speedrun perspective.

I also posted calcs of a level 21 Kadabra and Alakazam that showed an inconsistent ability to 1v1 Miltank (Kadabra straight up can't do it at all unless Miltank uses Rollout). You ignored those in favor of mocking me for the level 10 calc that demonstrates Abra has no immediate capacity to contribute to efficiency. Pretty much equivalent to if I highlighted Abra's gen VII performance instead of GSC, it really doesn't look good for your "argument" if you continually ignore the actually meaningful calcs in favor of mocking the obviously unfavorable one. Exclusively picking on the weakest link of an argument without addressing any of the more relevant points just makes it look like you either don't have an actual counterargument to those points or are more interested in trying to mock the person you're replying to than having an actual argument. The latter is my pick, personally, and frankly that's a trend I've picked up on when criticizing the IGTL's methodology. People defending it tend to be more interested in being smug jerks than having meaningful discourse.

As for speedrunning perspective, I've repeatedly clarified that it's a lot more nuanced than that despite your insistence otherwise. I'm routing out RNG as best I can and restricting items so no X boosters or healing nonsense, none of that is conducive to speedrunning the game. I'll reiterate, for Blue I ran a team of Squirtle/Spearow/Dugtrio/Zapdos (run's uploaded if you want to check it, made a topic for it but no one replied). That far more closely resembles a high tier IGTL team than a speedrun team. While routing the other starters for GSC, Geodude was far and away more efficient than grinding Chikorita or Cyndaquil to beat Falkner. I think most people contributing to the IGTL would agree with that sentiment too, regardless of opinions on Geodude's performance afterwards, and also that Geodude has zero business being used for a speedrun. I don't know what kind of partners I'll end up with for Totodile on the GSC run, but Abra is not an efficient pick, and I very much doubt that the final result will resemble a speedrun more than a fairly optimized challenge run. You can keep mitigating criticism of Abra by insisting I'm pulling a speedrun route where Totodile solo is the only viable strategy, but I am very obviously not, and it goes closer to a modified IGTL ruleset. Seeking efficiency as defined as a combination of speed, consistency, and self-sufficiency. Everything about that can be defined in concrete terms, unlike whatever the mess the IGTL topics has going on.

 

[CPU]

Oooh I love unpopular opinions!!!

• Gen 6 is my favorite gen. Not only is it my first and nostalgic,
• 3d pokemon > pixellated pokemon

Yeah this checks out

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

I'm really looking forward to Terastalisation. I think it'll make the metagame much more diverse and give life to Pokemon that historically always struggled with lousy typing. I predict that at first people will spam same type terastal for the power, people will bitch about it being broken, then people will find ways to counter it and use it defensively too. Wolfe Glick did a great video about how it will help Ice types.

I also think it will be much less broken in game than Megas and Z moves. Although let's be honest, the Pokemon series have never been difficult games. Mainly because they're intended for children under 10.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

*Snip*

I'm not sure we can talk about anything SV-related outside of the SV threads.

As for an Unpopular Opinion to wash away the stupidity from the last 2 pages (including mine, of course...)

I don't think Normal was a bad type before Gen 8. They usually have plenty of coverage to deal with Steel-types, I'd argue that Gen 5 introducing a ton of good Fighting-types is what made them tough to use.

After Gen 8 removed Return, made Close Combat a TR, and the ever increasing power creep rendered a lot of formerly good Normal mons useless, then I'd have to argue that it's pretty unviable.

Hell, people are seriously considering the possibility of Ursaluna being an actual OU-tier threat if it's available outside of PLA.

Speaking of which...

Wow GF, really? No update for PLA transfers to BDSP?