Unpopular opinions

Hugin said:
I thought I'd try using the "Ask the Pokecenter where you should go next" option, since clearly that's intended. Nope, I think that just pushes you towards the closest objective, not the appropriately-leveled one.

It'd be better if there were some way in the overworld to judge levels. Instead you just have to save before entering fights and reset if they're way above you.
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Yeah that’s another thing I don’t quite like. At one point the Pokémon Center direction feature told me to go to the False Dragon Trial which rocks mid-50s when I was mid-30s. It initially sounded like a great way to mitigate this partial guide dang it. It’s not, so you have to rely on online guides with the intended order.

It frustrates me because aside from this the game is so enjoyable, but giving you the illusion of an open world yet still kinda more or less forcing you down a set path if you don’t go off and grind is a little bothersome.
 
green_typhlosion said:
It doesn't have to be either-or. The original BW were by far the most linear games the series had ever had at that point.
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Yeah I’m fine with BW1 style games but if they are gonna go full open world then scale the levels or tell me where to go. Otherwise you get Paper Mario: Sticker Star levels of fake open world.

I still think SV was more or less the best way they could have done it without making the scaling an over-complex coding nightmare.
 
DrumstickGaming said:
I said in the impressions thread there is a certain thrill to this getting caught off guard, but I can also admit it's a little wonky at times. I think Mela is more egregious because she's the closest Team Star Boss near Mezagoza yet the Dark type guy is on the other side of the map and is ACTUALLY the first one you should battle.
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Don't get me wrong, it's actually been quite fun as I'm actually feeling challenged for a change. Well, not in the sense I suddenly went fighting Level 20-25 to Level 40 opponents, but often I would wander someplace where the Pokemon would suddenly be near the same Level as my Pokemon again and it feels like the game is actually keeping pace (granted these are off to the side places and normally the main path would still be under level but NORMALLY not by much... though obviously this isn't the case for me anymore). Like in Legends: Arceus, I'm having to USE my Items and spending money on getting more. :bloblul:

Wait, the Dark Star Leader (don't want to look up his name as I'm worried about seeing spoilers) was supposed to be the FIRST? :psynervous: And he's right before two of the stronger Titans? GF, how did you decide the Level Curve here? Did you throw darts at a spinning board with the Levels written on them? That's not even going to how where each objective is placed also feels poorly paced. West side has three of the Titans close to one another, and some Gym Leaders have no other objective between them so you gotto go out of your way to do a Titan/Team Star. And while Gym Leaders are kind of stuck having to be in cities/towns, the same isn't an issue for Team Star & the Titans so it just feels like poor planning.

Hugin said:
I thought I'd try using the "Ask the Pokecenter where you should go next" option, since clearly that's intended. Nope, I think that just pushes you towards the closest objective, not the appropriately-leveled one.
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... Which is something you can just see on the map. :blobglare: Either this was a result of two different groups coming up with an idea that caused one to be redundant; or they thought of the Pokemon Center Guide thing early on, realized it was easy to get lost where all the objectives were, so later just placed all the objectives on the map without getting rid of or re-purposing the Center Guide.

Siggu said:
Conclusion: It should have remained strictly linear.
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Conclusion: GF should stop being lazy and given each boss multiple teams/versions depending on how many of their respective Badges you had. That would be 8 teams for Gym Leaders, 5 teams for Star Leaders, and 5 versions of the Titans.

AND YES, this is an example of laziness of their part. I'll give them credit for making a boss for each of the Types (even if it means the bosses on each side is lopsided), and that there's 3 "kinds" of bosses (though all break down to just a normal Pokemon Battle with two having a SLIGHT gimmick) which at least gives a different experience. Also, I can overlook the odd placements of all the objectives, would like for each to be more evened out but I'll just take this at this being their first time doing this and they designed the region's overall appearance before deciding where to place the Titans & Team Star and ended up limiting themselves. HOWEVER, them not fully going with the "do anything in any order" idea, which THEY PROMOTED, by not level scaling via coming up with different teams/versions (which even I could do though don't want to at the moment to avoid spoilers) is just them throwing up their hands in the air going "that's good enough"!

And, no, I don't think this would be a programming mess. Nemona, Arven, and the Operation Starfall crew seem to be able to keep track of my progress which I assume means they're using "if than" flags.
 
DrumstickGaming said:
Yeah I’m fine with BW1 style games but if they are gonna go full open world then scale the levels or tell me where to go. Otherwise you get Paper Mario: Sticker Star levels of fake open world.

I still think SV was more or less the best way they could have done it without making the scaling an over-complex coding nightmare.
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I don't think the level scaling needed to be that bad. The wilds and generic trainers can stay the same, they're avoidable and make the world feel lived-in.

But there's 3 paths, 18 badges, and a range of ~40 levels. The Titans are easy, level=15+(2.4*badge count). Gym battles and Star Base Grunts/Star Flood can be leveled similarly, no need to mess with the rosters, just the levels. If that means the player faces off against a fully-evolved mon because they rushed to the back of the map first, so be it. It's at least on-par levelwise, which is easier*, and the player deserves it for going out of their way.

And then you just give the Gym Leaders/Star Bosses like 4 teams, select one based on badge count, and then apply the level ratio. Like, I'm not saying it'd be 0 work, but it's not some massive undertaking either.

A player should be able to just pick a part of the map, clear it out, and then go to a nearby part of the map and repeat, and feel like the game wants to be played that way. Instead, they either expect you to bounce back and forth across the map, or else just grind regularly as you clear things out, then come back and sweep through a bunch of low-level trash you missed. Either is not ideal game design.

*I just tested this, a lvl 10 Venusaur has worse stats than a lvl 15 Bulbasaur.
 
I think the Dark-Type Team Star guy is the worst of the poor level balancing, and some of the gyms get wonky toward the end (with the pathing I took, which imo felt natural, I had to pass through the Ice-Type gym to get to the Ghost-Type gym and then was solidly overlevelled as the Ghost-Type gym is meant to be I think 6th? But if it's 6th why would the 7th be in Alfornada they're right next to each other and should definitely be sequential as a result) but I also just... don't mind it. If you try to run through the game with just 6 Pokémon those Pokémon are gonna end up overlevelled by the end of the game, so for me where I had a big roster of Pokémon I'd switch in and out based on what my next planned objective was gonna be, I ended up being a bit underlevelled at all stages of the game. IMO that's easily the optimal, and intended, way to play, and is part of why this game has been so fun for me.

While I would have loved active level scaling, there are pros and cons to it, especially when applied to the game we got. Titans with level scaling would have been pretty jank, do you make them the same level as your lead? Higher levelled? Also, while I'm not sure if it's happened yet, level scaling can interact badly with especially the late-game Unova Pokémon as they're so high levelled. If Game Freak wants someone's ace to be Hydreigon, they either need to have steep level scaling to get it to 64, or just say "screw it we'll evolve it into Hydreigon at level 45 and it can be Zweilous after level 30" which feels even worse. And evolution is another trouble with it -- there's no point fighting a level 50 Teddiursa if you do it last, so it should be an Ursaring by then, but because Pokémon evolve at different levels (and through different methods like stones which creates arbitrary "we'll do it after x objective" decisions) an optimal route would still be able to be mapped out. If you don't do Katy as the first objective the level cap probably exceeds 15, so her Tarountula would be a Spidops, and then if let's say the levels increase by 5 after each objective, you have the choice between Iono having a Kilowattrel at level 25 or Brassius having a Dolliv at level 25 depending on what your team's better against etc. etc..

Basically because of the nature of Pokémon even with level scaling, there would end up being optimal route mapping. You'd also likely be incentivised to handle all the gyms first, as they're the hardest objectives, before going back to do Team Star and then to do the Titans as the Titans would never evolve or anything. That would make the game way less fun that participating in the different types of objectives over the course of the game without feeling guilty that you're handicapping yourself.

With that said, the fact that the Pokémon Centre Lady doesn't tell you what the next objective should be based on level and instead points you to the nearest one geographically (yes ma'am I do have a map) is criminal. I'm also fairly skeptical about the map design -- the choice between east or west at the start of the game sounded good but what I figured would happen would be that levels would scale up and around the ring of the region. It feels like that was the intention, but they ditched it later in the game, most likely due to not getting enough time to let people with fresh eyes playtest the game in order to see how well their map design telegraphs what the next objective should be to the player. Then modifications could have been made. It sounds like everyone did the Fire-Type Team Star before the Dark-Type one, stuff like that would have been revealed in playtesting if Game Freak gave the devs enough time to do that.
 
Yeah the only clue as to level is the little descriptions in the map, which you have to press + for, and are also very vague.

I personally enjoy fixed level encounters like this, done properly. Consider Octopath Traveler, where higher level towns, treasure, and encounters are within walking distance and it very clearly gets more dangerous the farther away from the center you go. Low level fights with hard bosses are fun and give you appropriate rewards to make you feel good about it. Single story speedruns basically have to do this. But when you have the flexibility to approach the game in your own way, the fixed encounters mean the gravity of a high level fight isn't cheapened by level scaling.

I'm not sure how Pokemon could handle an open world and scale it properly, but a nice start would be to just put the recommended level over the town like other modern RPGs.
 
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Rarycaris said:
It's actually not a good thing that every mechanic since Z-moves has been usable with every mon. Every single one since has been problematic in competitive -- Dynamax got banned immediately, and Terastal looks like it's going to get banned pretty quickly (at this point probably just on the backs of people who made up their minds the moment it was announced). Realistically the same is true of any future mechanic they will ever release. Z-moves probably would have been banned if there hadn't been such a strong aversion to banning generational mechanics at the time; they're a major reason why late gen 7 OU was such a matchup meta because there were too many threats to feasibly have two checks to all of them.
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Another factor on why Z-moves weren’t banned is because there was an opportunity cost for using them, in this case the item slot, unlike Dynamax and Testralization which it can happen at any time. Running four attacks with a Z-Move was weaker than using a LO with 4 attacks. From my experience, Z-Moves were best on setup sweepers since they can boost their offensive stats in the case the Z-Move can’t be used if they have already used the move.

I’m also surprised people in VGC like Wolfe despised Z-Moves, since in B03 you’d know if your opponent had a Z-Move or not based on the previous match.
 
DreamPrince said:
I’m also surprised people in VGC like Wolfe despised Z-Moves, since in B03 you’d know if your opponent had a Z-Move or not based on the previous match.
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It's more due to the nature of VGC. In VGC losing a mon to a Z-move istantly puts you at a huuuuge disadvantage.
While Dynamax was also very powerful, it was mainly used as "extra setup tool" and still would let you recover by using it yourself right after. It also had a much bigger layer of utility that isn't present in singles due to setting up field conditions for the partner.
You couldn't really recover from one of your pokemon nuked by a feint + Z-move combo, and due to the Item clause in VGC, the "item slot cost" was much less restrictive than on smogon, since it's not like you could run multiple life orbs or leftovers anyway.
 
This is more related to comp, but imma say it
TTar is beyond overrated
If it wasn't for Sand, it'd die immediately to Close Combatters (or see my fav mon's ability Cloud Nine). Its slow speed means it will always lose a chunk, or be setup on. And while 134 ATK is dang nice, it's role has been even more generic than Lando T

It's a shame. I like the mon, but the playstyle is barely innovative, either VGC or Singles
 
Sonikku A said:
This is more related to comp, but imma say it
TTar is beyond overrated
If it wasn't for Sand, it'd die immediately to Close Combatters (or see my fav mon's ability Cloud Nine). Its slow speed means it will always lose a chunk, or be setup on. And while 134 ATK is dang nice, it's role has been even more generic than Lando T

It's a shame. I like the mon, but the playstyle is barely innovative, either VGC or Singles
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Eh, I wouldn't say it was ever really "overrated". I've said it before, but Tyranitar is more a Pokemon who has started to age rather badly rather than a Pokemon who was never that great, as you seem to be insinuating. Like yeah, in Gen 8 it was not all that good and right now in Gen 9 it's also...not great...but that's more an issue of power creep and whatnot continuing to seep in over the generations and Tyranitar has started to fall behind and show its age, not that Tyranitar itself was never great.

Back in the early generations Tyranitar was an amazing and versatile Pokemon, as it had the perfect stat build with the divine combination of excellent firepower, great bulk, wide movepool, and the hefty number of resistances it had to serve a variety of functions and allow it to fulfill any role on any team, with its severe Fighting weakness and low Speed being its Achilles heel that kept it manageable every time. It has many key resistances to Normal, Flying, Fire, Ghost, and a Psychic immunity combined with access to Pursuit in earlier gens to be an effective trapper, as well as great coverage options and offensive STAB in Rock Slide and later Stone Edge to hit hard. Sand giving a Special Defense boost in Gens 4 and beyond helped Tyranitar become an even more effective check to Ghosts and Psychics like Gengar, Alakazam, and the Latis. Tyranitar was a meta defining threat in Gen 2, 3, 4, and 5, and later a staple of Gen 6 and 7 OU thanks to these qualities. Its stat build and movepool meant it could do anything: bulky tank that can Pursuit trap, set up with Dragon Dance to be a lethal sweeper, using its sheer firepower and immense bulk to its advantage, be a powerful Choice user, and later it could be a great Stealth Rock setter and tank with utility. Its good 95 Special Attack meant it could use its special coverage options to main physical walls like Skarmory as well.

Worth noting is that Close Combat wasn't a thing in Gens 2 and 3 and so Fighting coverage wasn't that big of an issue for Tyranitar to deal with in its earliest days since good Fighting moves were borderline nonexistent in Gen 2 and the best one in Gen 3 was Brock Break.

Gen 6 and Gen 7 were a bit harsher on it but Tyranitar getting a Mega helped with its Dragon Dance sets to stay effective while its Choice and utility sets were still great. Tyranitar's Sand Stream was great not only for passive chip damage and its own Special Defense boost but also gave Tyranitar the ability to be an excellent teammate for Excadrill who could use the sandstorm to activate Sand Rush and be a deadly sweeper.

Of course it's started to fall off in Gens 8 and 9 where it lost Pursuit and its Mega and its age is starting to show with power creep being nastier than ever, but it was great for a very, very long time. Even in Gen 8 VGC and historically across many VGC metas it's been strong as a Sand setter and its STAB Rock Slide has been a force. It's not all that great nowadays in Smogon metas, but it used to be great for a long time. It's just a Pokemon who is starting to show its age. Took longer for it to start falling to power creep than Salamence or Metagross did, but yeah, it's starting to fall apart. But that doesn't mean it was never all that great to begin with, it was an amazing OU staple for many, many years for good reason.
 
ScraftyIsTheBest said:
Eh, I wouldn't say it was ever really "overrated". I've said it before, but Tyranitar is more a Pokemon who has started to age rather badly rather than a Pokemon who was never that great, as you seem to be insinuating. Like yeah, in Gen 8 it was not all that good and right now in Gen 9 it's also...not great...but that's more an issue of power creep and whatnot continuing to seep in over the generations and Tyranitar has started to fall behind and show its age, not that Tyranitar itself was never great.

Back in the early generations Tyranitar was an amazing and versatile Pokemon, as it had the perfect stat build with the divine combination of excellent firepower, great bulk, wide movepool, and the hefty number of resistances it had to serve a variety of functions and allow it to fulfill any role on any team, with its severe Fighting weakness and low Speed being its Achilles heel that kept it manageable every time. It has many key resistances to Normal, Flying, Fire, Ghost, and a Psychic immunity combined with access to Pursuit in earlier gens to be an effective trapper, as well as great coverage options and offensive STAB in Rock Slide and later Stone Edge to hit hard. Sand giving a Special Defense boost in Gens 4 and beyond helped Tyranitar become an even more effective check to Ghosts and Psychics like Gengar, Alakazam, and the Latis. Tyranitar was a meta defining threat in Gen 2, 3, 4, and 5, and later a staple of Gen 6 and 7 OU thanks to these qualities. Its stat build and movepool meant it could do anything: bulky tank that can Pursuit trap, set up with Dragon Dance to be a lethal sweeper, using its sheer firepower and immense bulk to its advantage, be a powerful Choice user, and later it could be a great Stealth Rock setter and tank with utility. Its good 95 Special Attack meant it could use its special coverage options to main physical walls like Skarmory as well.

Worth noting is that Close Combat wasn't a thing in Gens 2 and 3 and so Fighting coverage wasn't that big of an issue for Tyranitar to deal with in its earliest days since good Fighting moves were borderline nonexistent in Gen 2 and the best one in Gen 3 was Brock Break.

Gen 6 and Gen 7 were a bit harsher on it but Tyranitar getting a Mega helped with its Dragon Dance sets to stay effective while its Choice and utility sets were still great. Tyranitar's Sand Stream was great not only for passive chip damage and its own Special Defense boost but also gave Tyranitar the ability to be an excellent teammate for Excadrill who could use the sandstorm to activate Sand Rush and be a deadly sweeper.

Of course it's started to fall off in Gens 8 and 9 where it lost Pursuit and its Mega and its age is starting to show with power creep being nastier than ever, but it was great for a very, very long time. Even in Gen 8 VGC and historically across many VGC metas it's been strong as a Sand setter and its STAB Rock Slide has been a force. It's not all that great nowadays in Smogon metas, but it used to be great for a long time. It's just a Pokemon who is starting to show its age. Took longer for it to start falling to power creep than Salamence or Metagross did, but yeah, it's starting to fall apart. But that doesn't mean it was never all that great to begin with, it was an amazing OU staple for many, many years for good reason.
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Worth noting there are currently no effective sand abusers in regular gen 9 singles. There are only two mons with sand rush, one is Lycanroc-midday and the other is in Ubers for unrelated reasons.
 
Tyranitar even in Gen 8 had decent performance thanks to his extremely strong Choice Band Wallbreaking sets and Sand remaining one of the few reliable sources of Chip Damage with Boots on everything.

I think one thing that helped Ttar's age was that he was always kind of a strong-mon with an Achilles' Heel, as compared to Metagross or Salamence who were designed to be strong but not heavily oriented to one specific aspect in the same manner. Ttar is more resistant to generic Power Creep as a result because those weak points were already known and something you had to cover for, so he mostly gets hurt by those aspects becoming more common as opposed to the game in general getting stronger: He was already a slow juggaurnaut so the game speeding up isn't his issue for one example.

And honestly Ttar lasting as long as it did is impressive after Gen 3 where Sand Stream made it arguably the most relevant factor in the game due to permanently undoing Leftovers recovery for a gen where healing was much less widespread for OU. Flygon got by on performance simply because it could net-gain health under Sandstorm and with Spikes laid out, that mattered quite a bit for it.
 
I'm probably the only person who prefers the way Zygarde was handed in SM/USUM over the idea of it being needlessly forced into the story or slapped in a major cutscene just for the sake of it. (Giratina was a great example of this. Sure Distortion World and Giratina look cool, but its involvement seemed very forced and unnecessary, like it was for the sake of having something done for its own game. Nothing stopped that ending from being resolved the same way it was in DP without Giratina.)

I love how Gamefreak took Zygarde's concept, and incorporated it into quest to allow you to build the legendary from scratch in another region. While I also prefer this happens in Kalos at some point, by having this legendary take part in another region, it uniquely emphasizes that Zygarde's role in the world is just... that! The world. Legendaries should never be strictly tied to their region unless they're more minor, like the Swords of Justice. So many legendaries are just represented in their own region and left behind.

There was also a good reason for it to be in said region.

Zygarde is said to monitor the balance between life and death in ecosystems. Ultra Beasts inherently defy the natural order by just existing in the regular Pokémon universe. They are heavily known to disrupt ecosystems to large extents (hence being major invasive species)

Zygarde's role in Pokémon clashes with the presence of Ultra Beasts. It has done so more than it did with anything Lysandre has ever done, including in the anime, where Zygarde reluctantly makes a last second approach to join in and help. This Pokémon detects when the ecosystem is imbalanced and strikes when this happens to an extreme extent. In the games, Lysandre never fired the weapon at full force, so he never did anything to effectively trigger Zygarde. Anime Lysandre's case was exceptional for this, but the Ultra Beasts were actively pushing Zygarde's buttons by sporadically trying to live in the wild with regular Pokémon and creating ecological disaster. Ecological diaster that could have easily spread worldwide. Were they handled by the Tapus and player? Sure, but Zygarde still did much of its job by being present in this particular moment. In Sun and Moon the player also had a choice in whether or not they wanted Zygarde to be involved. In those games, you were able to build a Zygarde right before Ultra Beast climax. Dexio and Sina hinted that Zygarde's arrival could have had something to do with this. This wasn't its own game so I guess it made sense that it was never forced in.

Additionally, there were waves of Ultra Beasts and signs that some of them could have even arrived before the events of the game. Hapu also mentioned that facing one UB alone almost beat her and Tapu Fini. The Tapus and Alolan people wouldn't have been able to deal with all of them.

It's theoretically possible that Zygarde could have been around to deal with some of the UBs, without anyone in the region noticing at the time. This could have been further shown in USUM where the Zygarde are in 50% forme and 10% forme before you and Dexio caught one. Lastly, Zygarde in the anime and the manga has shown to be a very last resort Pokémon. I speculate that if the stakes of SM and USUM were never handled by the player, it would have been handled by Zygarde instead.

Idk I just love how unique and cool of a case this was. Zygarde wasn't just another box art slapped into a cover of its own game and doing the same thing previous box arts were doing. It was uniquely implemented in an area where its role was considered.
 
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Ransei said:
Ultra Beasts inherently defy the natural order by just existing in the regular Pokémon universe. They are heavily known to disrupt ecosystems to large extents (hence being major invasive species)
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This is one thing I never understood. The dex mentions the destruction caused by UBs, but it doesn't feel extreme compared to what regular mons are said to do (Gyarados is a prime example). One of the defining traits of invasive species is that they can thrive in the new environment to be able to displace natives, while UBs appear unable to reproduce outside their home dimensions. Heck, Alola has an actual invasive species problem, right down to the same reasons real life has a lot of them (deliberate introduction for supposed pest control), and that invasive species is literally enshrined.
 
Ironmage said:
This is one thing I never understood. The dex mentions the destruction caused by UBs, but it doesn't feel extreme compared to what regular mons are said to do (Gyarados is a prime example). One of the defining traits of invasive species is that they can thrive in the new environment to be able to displace natives, while UBs appear unable to reproduce outside their home dimensions. Heck, Alola has an actual invasive species problem, right down to the same reasons real life has a lot of them (deliberate introduction for supposed pest control), and that invasive species is literally enshrined.
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I guess the difference is that by nature of being totally-not-legendaries, the Ultra Beasts aren't introduced to you in very large quantity. On top of this the Pokedex entries for the SM Ultra Beasts describe a lot of them more as feats or incidents than consistent habits (like Kartana cut a steel tower it's so sharp, but no mention that it regularly cuts things down). This is only for half of them, with Nihilego, Guzzlord, and the USUM Beasts being more habitually dangerous (though Poipole is more mischevious than vicious since one entry makes it sound like a Starter in its home world).

Can't determine if this is just gameplay story segregation because they want limited UB access for the player, or if the idea is they're popping out in much greater quantity with you just being one of several parties dealing with the fallout. It might be that they're simply destructive agents appearing in scattered incidents, but not with regularity or quantity that constitutes an invasive species problem. It'd be kind of like the difference between your area being filled with a non-native Snake population vs one pet Snake getting dumped and eating the wildlife for a couple months.

I also think in the case of the regular Wild Pokemon, there's this acceptance that they're native to whatever habitat so the Ecosystem and human settlements build/position around it naturally. The UB descriptions comparatively have them just dropped into a spot and introducing a destructive element it's clearly not poised to handle, or just monsters in human settlements like Blacephalon blowing people up.
 
Ransei said:
I'm probably the only person who prefers the way Zygarde was handed in SM/USUM over the idea of it being needlessly forced into the story or slapped in a major cutscene just for the sake of it.
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Count me in this too.

I think, as you said, I would have ultimately preferred for this stuff to have been done in Kalos, but other than that, I’ve always really liked how they tried to do something different and less formulaic with Zygarde. I used one in one of my Sun & Moon playthroughs, and it felt rewarding to gradually work my way up to restoring Zygarde’s full power. Once I got to Route 16 (side-note: I feel like they should’ve placed the Zygarde lab on Akala rather than Ula’ula, because you’re gonna find 10 cells pretty quick, but can’t do anything with them until you’ve probably got like 30 or so*), I was able to build a 10% Zygarde and add it to my team, and then sometime around Vast Poni Canyon I think I had enough to push it to 50%, so it was kind of like a more manual form of evolution to get what’s essentially a 600 BST pseudo-legendary to bring to the League. And then the postgame naturally leads you to the point where you obtain the final cell, capping off your long journey across the whole region.

Zygarde just being Rayquaza 2.0 would’ve been much less memorable, I feel. Ironically that role ended up being better fulfilled by… Rayquaza itself, lol.

* (Maybe they could have also created like a 25% forme or something to bridge the gap.)
 
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