Metagame Ubers Metagame and Set Discussion v1 - Uncharted Territory

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Not sure if this set has been shared here, but regardless I want to share a set for Great Tusk that I’ve been loving ever since day 1, and that has netted me so many KOs and even wins outright. It should be noted that this set should mainly, if not exclusively be run on sun teams, but seeing how good Koraidon is, I hardly see that as a hindrance to this set.


Great Tusk @ Assault Vest
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Headlong Rush
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Rapid Spin


This set acts as hazard removal as well as breaking/sweeping (Which one it is depends on whether you consider Rapid Spin a boosting move.). Assault Vest seems like a strange choice for an item at first, but it in conjunction with Tera Ground allows Great Tusk to survive Choice Specs Flutter Mane's Moonblast:

252 SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Ground Assault Vest Great Tusk: 265-313 (71.4 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Adamant is used over Jolly because with just 252 EVs in Speed and a neutral nature, after a Rapid Spin this set outspeeds the entire unscarfed, unboosted metagame. This allows Great Tusk to run Adamant for maximum power.

Headlong Rush and Close Combat are the obvious (and nuclear) STABs of choice. I run Stone Miss for maximum power against Flying types not named Corviknight, but you can run Knock Off if you fancy the item removal and reliability over the power.
 
Pex is in such a strange place in this metagame. Tspikes are better than ever, with limited removal options and few grounded poisons (no MGar, no Etern; only pex and clodsire). Pex also provides a decent check to metagame staples like Korai, chienpao, fluttermane, and offensive waters - it’s one of the few mons that consistently works in this role. It’s also been less affected by the recover nerf than others bc of regenerator

All that said, Pex now requires more support/creative building. With the loss of Scald (and knockoff, to a lesser extent), Pex has a complete inability to pressure steel types. This is especially relevant when facing opposing Corviknight, which can easily PP stall Pex and Defog its Tspikes; Iron Treads poses similar problems, although Chilling Water or liquidation CAN make progress in the longterm. For this reason, I find Pex relegated to the most passive of stalls and semistalls in this tier - pairing Pex with your own Corviknight allows you to pp stall opposing Corv defogs, pairing with Garganacl can force up SR or opposing Corv to take Salt damage. Having a plan to beat Corv is integral to building a solid Pex squad.

i also wonder if we may seePex / goldengo pairings on balance as a way to check corv and keep up the broken T-spikes.

it’s also worth noting that Pex finally has the flexibility to run items other than shedshell - while bothGoth and Dug easily trap base form Pex, Pex can tera into ghost or flying types to escape in matchups where its useful. These types also allow Pex to keep some neat resistances, such as fighting, that are shared with its base form (althoughlosing ice and water resistances is certainly not great on certain squads - in tese cases, shedshell may still be optimal)

I’m interested to see where this mon ends up
 

Garrett

Banned deucer.
Pex is in such a strange place in this metagame. Tspikes are better than ever, with limited removal options and few grounded poisons (no MGar, no Etern; only pex and clodsire). Pex also provides a decent check to metagame staples like Korai, chienpao, fluttermane, and offensive waters - it’s one of the few mons that consistently works in this role. It’s also been less affected by the recover nerf than others bc of regenerator

All that said, Pex now requires more support/creative building. With the loss of Scald (and knockoff, to a lesser extent), Pex has a complete inability to pressure steel types. This is especially relevant when facing opposing Corviknight, which can easily PP stall Pex and Defog its Tspikes; Iron Treads poses similar problems, although Chilling Water or liquidation CAN make progress in the longterm. For this reason, I find Pex relegated to the most passive of stalls and semistalls in this tier - pairing Pex with your own Corviknight allows you to pp stall opposing Corv defogs, pairing with Garganacl can force up SR or opposing Corv to take Salt damage. Having a plan to beat Corv is integral to building a solid Pex squad.

i also wonder if we may seePex / goldengo pairings on balance as a way to check corv and keep up the broken T-spikes.

it’s also worth noting that Pex finally has the flexibility to run items other than shedshell - while bothGoth and Dug easily trap base form Pex, Pex can tera into ghost or flying types to escape in matchups where its useful. These types also allow Pex to keep some neat resistances, such as fighting, that are shared with its base form (althoughlosing ice and water resistances is certainly not great on certain squads - in tese cases, shedshell may still be optimal)

I’m interested to see where this mon ends up
Toxapex @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold/Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Chilling Water / Toxic
- Infestation
- Toxic Spikes / Toxic
- Recover

Infestation is the answer to your woes to get some sort of damage output from Lord Pex. You ensure Corv wastes a Roost and have a helmet to shrug off damage and punish U-Turn. On hard stall you would have a Skeledirge to absorb a boosted Body Press.

I was working on https://pokepast.es/66c42a9742d4c91b. Umbrella Blissey is a big commitment to be an actual switch-in to Korai-supported Chi-Yu, but you can run Boots if you want to forfeit that matchup for improving general balance matchups. Perish Song + Wish support Scream Tail is a cool option but has the trade-off of no Rapid Spin support; relying on Corviknight is a tad risky.

It's worth noting a set like this is only viable because Clodsire is slowly dropping off in usage because it really wants double hazards to beat Corv and Toxic to stop setup mons like Chien-Pao, but realistically can only pick one. Clodsire is also significantly worse than Ting-Lu in terms of ensuring hazards against Grimmsnarl Screens teams.
 
Couple of mons that haven't been super discussed and I find potentially interesting:

Iron Treads

Iron Treads @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 HP / 140 SpD / 116 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock

This set compresses rocks, hazard removal, and a Flutter Mane check. The EVs ensure you get a speed boost under Terrain, letting it check Miraidon lacking Overheat.

Iron Treads @ Assault Vest
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

This set is a really nice catch-all spdef pivot. Water tera is nice defensively. It can even survive Fiery Dance from Iron Moth before Tera. Knock off is also nice utility.

Indeedee

Indeedee-F @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Psychic Surge
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psyshock
- Healing Wish
- Shadow Ball

Other than Arboliva, Indeedees are the only consistent Terrain setters in the game. I'm not sure how useful they really are, but Psychic Terrain is useful for blocking Jet Punch from late-game banded Palafin and for removing Quark Drive and Hadron Engine boosts. Tera Fairy makes the most sense to resist Dark attacks and to be immune to the big scary dragons. The Normal typing is also not half bad here, as it can block FM Shadow Balls and Last Respects.

None of these sets are super optimized; just some stuff I theorized about. Feel free to discourse! :)
 
Palafin is kinda good in ubers. With choice band and water tera, its a huge threat, especially to offensive teams.
I mean, the mon does 32% to 38% with adamant banded wave crash to koraidon under sun!
 

Manaphy

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Hey everyone, I think the tier has been developing nicely so far, despite the presence of several problematic aspects currently. The most major one that everyone is focused on is, of course, the tera issue, but the reality is that we can't do too much about the situation at the moment.

In the meantime, I'd like to bring attention to a problematic aspect of the tier that we can currently tackle: Moody.

While this may seem strange to bring up, especially as you may not have run into it yourself yet, the reality is that Moody is a purely uncompetitive ability that is already banned in OU and other lower tiers. If you don't know what it does, Moody randomly raises one stat by two and lowers another stat by one. Over a period this time, this will accumulate into a myriad of boosts that greatly outweigh the downsides of the random stat drop. The fundamental nature of Moody's randomness makes it an ability that is not tied to skill at all, making it uncompetitive and just generally not fun.

The reason that Moody was not banned at the start of this gen was because, in Gen 8, Moody had very few viable abusers, with the only one being Glalie. Overall, while Glalie could occasionally sweep, the reality was that it got hard countered by a pokemon that was on nearly every team in the metagame: Necrozma-DM. It's best bet to break past it was to stall out Sunsteel Strike PP, but with the rise of popularity of Iron Head sets, Glalie had a much, much more difficult time stalling out NDM and as such it was just generally seen as gimmicky and ineffective. As a result, it was deemed as mostly harmless, and the tiering council needed to a look at other more pressing issues such as the Zacian and Shadow Tag anyway.

The difference this generation is that we have a much more viable abuser: Scovillain.

Scovillain @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD (or anything you want really)
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Protect

While it may not seem that intimidating at first, its stats are decent enough, and having access to Leech Seed was the dream of any Moody abuser, giving it unprecedented stalling power in combination with its ability. Flamethrower gives great mono-coverage thanks to it's high PP and burn chance, being immune only by Dachsbun and Ceruledge (the latter which you can potentially stall out with Leech anyway). Another notable aspect is that the tier is currently lacking many viable phazers, with only rare options like Whirlwind Ting-Lu, Haze Pex, Perish Song Scream Tail, or Whirlwind Hippowdon being around. This gives the vast majority of teams little counterplay to Scovillain other than continually hitting it and hoping the random stat drops go their way. Not to mention, several common pokemon that are key to defensive cores such as Corviknight, Ting-Lu, Scream Tail, and Skeledirge can provide a pretty easy set-up opportunity for Scovillain. All it takes is one speed boost for Scovillain to have the ability to stall every team member through Leech Seed, Substitute, and Protect, or just sweep outright with Flamethrower given enough Special Attack boosts.

While Scovillain hasn't been used too much yet (due in part to the general distaste for such a random ability), it has notably been part of SiTuM's run to the 1st place on the ladder at the beginning of the generation, and its already being used in some tour games such as by Fc. It's not a threat that will win you every game, but its something that will let you win games you shouldn't have won in the first place due to the odds going in your favor.

This post was meant to spark discussion with this in mind: I think that Moody should be banned from Ubers in line with OU and the other lower tiers. What do you think?
 
Moody definitely needs to go. HO doesn't care as much as other archetypes because it can apply a ton of offensive pressure, but if Scovillain comes in against a passive 'mon and manages to net a Speed boost you're up against a SubSeeder with 546 speed which gives you a world of hurt.
Sure, its too volatile to be a reliable strategy but should be banned for the same reason OHKO moves and evasion boosting are: you get a roughly 20% chance of completely being screwed by something you have no control over.
 
Yeah the dumb plant is definitely the best moody abuser we’ve ever had. Something as terrible as glalie was broken with moody, there’s no reason it shouldn’t be banned on this thing. I assumed it already was banned
 

Fc

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As much as I dislike things that are generally "skilless" being a part of the tier (which is why we have bp, evasion, and king's rock banned to start), I don't think I'm convinced it applies to Moody. Last gen it was allowed because Glalie was complete shit and no one ever even considered it in a serious setting, not to mention Octillary being probably worse. Scovillain is 100% a step up from those, but it's not exactly a titan either. It has mediocre at best stats, given that it's not trying to sweep w the decent attacks but wants to stack boosts using its bad bulk, and is weak to hazards in a tier where hazards are insanely broken. It's rarely seen on ladder and I don't think it's been used more than like twice in kickoff, so I think it definitely needs some time to sit. It can definitely cheese games with the right boosts and sitting there for a while, but we also have things like Espathra who can do that but without the luck element.

I think it's something to keep an eye on but for full transparancy we asked the council if we'd prefer to do council only action on it and I personally did not, I think if something is luck based but can't actually be used to success like Moody last gen then there's not a huge reason to ban it, but if we do I think a suspect would be more fair for something that's probably controversial on a fundamental tiering viewpoint level. Unrelated but if it does go I think it'd be best to suspect / unban back in for home anyway, all the brokens will probably run over Scovillain. Overall tho I think we need to keep a very close eye on it, but it's also something that I think can be adapted to and might fizzle out in such a high power tier.
 

Garrett

Banned deucer.
I have literally never interacted with a Scovillain. If it's suspected, this is going to be exactly like Shadow Tag in SS where no one ever interacted with a Gothitelle on ladder (and half the people that get reqs are extremely confused lol) but there are certain team faceoffs where it's defeating to face a Moody user with average luck. I'd personally place Moody in the same category as King's Rock: suboptimal, meant to cheese, but has the ability to facilitate seriously frustating, uncompetitive gameplay.

I suppose the difference/silver lining is how we have increased options for Unaware mons, but I feel like we're approaching PP stall/random 50/50's switching out to preserve PP sort of territory. I don't find that incredibly riveting nor worth the time to preserve the mechanic.
 
More body to the post this time so it doesn't get deleted, but I found an interesting "core".

Cyclizar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shed Tail
- U-turn
- coverage
- Knock Off

Chien-Pao @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sword of Ruin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Shard
- Swords Dance
- Crunch/Sucker Punch
- Brick Break

This "core" (not really, you don't entirely build around it) actually preforms quite well against a variety of teams. Against lead screens Grimmsnarl, lead Cyclizar, Shed Tail. If they go for Taunt, U-turn next turn. Ideally Chien-Pao gets a sub, but it works either way. Swords Dance, then Brick Break to destroy screens. Take it from there.
Against HO teams, you can take a hit from either of the legendaries or Flutter Mane, Swords Dance, and OHKO back with Priority Ice Shard. This core pairs well with the cover legendaries.

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubers-1741235257-zcdeayqna0cq5hrp1g8k2efpeocwumipw
 
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SparksBlade

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More body to the post this time so it doesn't get deleted, but I found an interesting "core".

Cyclizar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shed Tail
- U-turn
- coverage
- Knock Off

Chien-Pao @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sword of Ruin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Shard
- Swords Dance
- Crunch/Sucker Punch
- Brick Break

This "core" (not really, you don't entirely build around it) actually preforms quite well against a variety of teams. Against lead screens Grimmsnarl, lead Cyclizar, Shed Tail. If they go for Taunt, U-turn next turn. Ideally Chien-Pao gets a sub, but it works either way. Swords Dance, then Brick Break to destroy screens. Take it from there.
Against HO teams, you can take a hit from either of the legendaries or Flutter Mane, Swords Dance, and OHKO back with Priority Ice Shard. This core pairs well with the cover legendaries.

Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubers-1741235257-zcdeayqna0cq5hrp1g8k2efpeocwumipw
The Choice Scarf Cyclizar did nothing in that game. The Chien-Pao only worked because it dodged a Play Rough which meant the Focus Sash wasn't broken.

I get the appeal of Sub+Sash but vs Grimmsnarl it very clearly would fail 90% of the time. Against most other things they could just attack and break the Sub since Cyclizar rarely threatens anything in the first place, and the Sub will most times be created before the opponent moves. Even then, I don't think this is a reliable core at all that will get consistent results.

I would advise you to try to get higher on the ladder to test things more thoroughly. A fixed ELO number is difficult to give and will change with the age of the tier, but I would say something has to work consistently in at least top 200 before being even considered. I think 1100s are too low to determine the success or failures of any strategy or idea.
 
The Choice Scarf Cyclizar did nothing in that game. The Chien-Pao only worked because it dodged a Play Rough which meant the Focus Sash wasn't broken.

I get the appeal of Sub+Sash but vs Grimmsnarl it very clearly would fail 90% of the time. Against most other things they could just attack and break the Sub since Cyclizar rarely threatens anything in the first place, and the Sub will most times be created before the opponent moves. Even then, I don't think this is a reliable core at all that will get consistent results.

I would advise you to try to get higher on the ladder to test things more thoroughly. A fixed ELO number is difficult to give and will change with the age of the tier, but I would say something has to work consistently in at least top 200 before being even considered. I think 1100s are too low to determine the success or failures of any strategy or idea.
Haha. Maybe. Any tips for laddering further?
You don't need to keep sash up, just kill or seriously damage Grimmsnarl to keep screens down.
 
You'll just have to keep trying and learning from your games. You can ask for help in the Ubers Room or in Ubers Discord but the biggest thing is you just have to keep playing to improve yourself. Let's not derail this thread further because this is not the topic.
hello I'm new to this game and I'm a big fan of abomasnow, any suggestions for building a solid team around this super mon :owohehe:
 
Hello! I've been really enjoying my time playing Ubers so far, but Chi-Yu has been giving me a fair bit of trouble. I don't really know what Pokemon would be right to add to my team to deal with it. Here is the team I've been using, for reference:
https://pokepast.es/bea5fc4213927c97
I've considered swapping Iron Treads for Ting-Lu, but I don't know if it would even be able to help with that problem, let alone if it would be worth swapping my best answer to Miraidon to a potentially less effective answer to it for.

Edit: I changed my team up a bit after running some calcs, this Ting-Lu set should be good for taking on Chi-Yu as well as Miraidon, and I changed Koraidon's set as well. I'm still more than willing to receive suggestions though! I just ask that you guys go easy on me
https://pokepast.es/7bf936b102c3b435
 
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Hello! I've been really enjoying my time playing Ubers so far, but Chi-Yu has been giving me a fair bit of trouble. I don't really know what Pokemon would be right to add to my team to deal with it. Here is the team I've been using, for reference:
https://pokepast.es/bea5fc4213927c97
I've considered swapping Iron Treads for Ting-Lu, but I don't know if it would even be able to help with that problem, let alone if it would be worth swapping my best answer to Miraidon to a potentially less effective answer to it for.

Edit: I changed my team up a bit after running some calcs, this Ting-Lu set should be good for taking on Chi-Yu as well as Miraidon, and I changed Koraidon's set as well. I'm still more than willing to receive suggestions though! I just ask that you guys go easy on me
https://pokepast.es/7bf936b102c3b435
First off, I would change the item on Chien-Pao since you aren’t going to be able to keep hazards off the field for focus sash to be relevant. You just have to play very aggressively versus Chi-Yu/Koraidon teams, keep the pressure up and try to leave it as little opportunity to come in safely. One of the downsides to Chi-Yu is that it is quite slow, so it can easily be revenge killed and taken advantage off by Koraidon/Miraidon. Otherwise if you are really concerned about it, umbrella Blissey and Dachsbun are decent checks to it.
 
First off, I would change the item on Chien-Pao since you aren’t going to be able to keep hazards off the field for focus sash to be relevant. You just have to play very aggressively versus Chi-Yu/Koraidon teams, keep the pressure up and try to leave it as little opportunity to come in safely. One of the downsides to Chi-Yu is that it is quite slow, so it can easily be revenge killed and taken advantage off by Koraidon/Miraidon. Otherwise if you are really concerned about it, umbrella Blissey and Dachsbun are decent checks to it.
That makes sense, thank you! Because of my team's lack of hazard removal, I've already gotten quite used to playing aggressively and keeping up the pressure, so I'm glad to know that playing like that will help me in a matchup I struggle with. Thank you again for the advice! I really appreciate it.
 

McGrrr

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Not impressed by opposing Palafins in this meta. Sun is omnipresent and there is so much momentum lost by requiring Zero to Hero activation. Koraidon users can just Tera something else and will always have its natural typing/bulk/sun as a check. A Boots Bundle is often waiting to tank Jet Punch when revenging as well.
 
Not impressed by opposing Palafins in this meta. Sun is omnipresent and there is so much momentum lost by requiring Zero to Hero activation. Koraidon users can just Tera something else and will always have its natural typing/bulk/sun as a check. A Boots Bundle is often waiting to tank Jet Punch when revenging as well.
Yeah. I've also seen a lot of them stay in and eat an Electro Drift. Not sure what they're thinking, maybe it's because I run a Scarf set?
 
Not impressed by opposing Palafins in this meta. Sun is omnipresent and there is so much momentum lost by requiring Zero to Hero activation. Koraidon users can just Tera something else and will always have its natural typing/bulk/sun as a check. A Boots Bundle is often waiting to tank Jet Punch when revenging as well.
I agree yeah, in general if you really need a revenge killer with priority, Chien-Pao does the role better thanks to its Sucker Punch beating Flutter Mane and Ice Shard doing a hefty chunk to both legendaries.
 
I was thinking about Pokemon that might have underexplored niches, and it led me to play a few hours worth of games using Indeedee-F on my team.

It has a few very desirable traits, such as Psychic Surge to make pivoting around Miraidon much easier, a secondary Normal typing to absorb Shadow Balls from Flutter Mane, and its Psychic Terrain blocking moves such as Chien-Pao's Ice Shard and Sucker Punch, all of which I wanted to try out. I've found that it does make playing around Miraidon, especially choice-locked variants, much easier, serves as a very solid counter to Flutter Mane, and its Psychic Terrain can indeed prove useful in a pinch.

But does it do much outside of this? Not really, no. Its typing is rather terrible defensively, only resisting Psychic and Ghost, and a team needs to be prepared to support it due to its lack of recovery outside of Rest, meaning you'd likely want to bring a Wish passer like Scream Tail, in case you need to heal it back up. Its physical bulk leaves something to be desired, and taking hits will result in it doing a worse job at its roles later, meaning it will oftentimes be dead weight until it comes time for it to do the two things that it does.

Despite all this, I do believe that Indeedee-F has a legitimate niche in the tier, even if a small one, as it is very rare for a Pokemon to be able to serve as both a counter to Flutter Mane and as something that can help immensely with playing around the ever-terrifying Miraidon. Here's the set I was using, as well as some calcs that I hope will help demonstrate my point.


Indeedee-F (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Psychic Surge
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hyper Voice

252 SpA Choice Specs Miraidon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Indeedee-F: 229-271 (66.5 - 78.7%) -- not a KO
252 SpA Choice Specs Miraidon Electro Drift vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Indeedee-F: 118-139 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Indeedee-F: 75-88 (21.8 - 25.5%) -- 0.7% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Indeedee-F Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Flutter Mane in Psychic Terrain: 172-204 (68.5 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


I'm very curious to hear what others think about Indeedee's potential place in the metagame! Again I want to stress that I am by no means suggesting that it will reinvent the tier or anything like that, I just want to spread awareness of a potentially good, albeit very niche, choice to consider while teambuilding.
 
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