I wouldn't go as far as to say I want them gone, but I wholeheartedly feel this sentiment of Barraskewda and Kilowattrel in rain being a particular thorn in my side.
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np: SV UU Stage 1: Re-Entry (Beta starts now, bye Espathra!)
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What's a realistic timeline on Baxcalibur getting banned? There's so little adequate counterplay, I feel like it really adds nothing positive to the tier.
I wanna start by saying that I'm very excited for the Undercard fight in the next FightNight between PIF and Lily. It's gonna be so good!
As for what I'm kind of hoping for the council to discuss, I guess my biggest 2 nominees are Baxcalibur and Ttar, the 2 mons that just dropped. I don't think I need to talk much about Bax, we're playing the tier and can see the work it puts in. As for Ttar, it has been an OU powerhouse for so long and for good reason. Auto sand boosting its spdef (unlike hippo) makes it pretty tricky to deal with. Base 134 attack is very good, and 100/110/100+sand defenses is very good as well. The only thing holding it back is its speed. That being said, the weaknesses rock dark provide can easily be overcome this gen thanks to Tera. Tbh, I think tera might push it a little over the edge, but players smarter than me can do a better job articulating why.
Other than that, I can maybe see Hydreigon being voted on, but nothing else really sticks out to me. Tbh, the only thing I could see getting qb'd is Bax, with Ttar and Hydra maybe getting suspect tests.
As for what I'm kind of hoping for the council to discuss, I guess my biggest 2 nominees are Baxcalibur and Ttar, the 2 mons that just dropped. I don't think I need to talk much about Bax, we're playing the tier and can see the work it puts in. As for Ttar, it has been an OU powerhouse for so long and for good reason. Auto sand boosting its spdef (unlike hippo) makes it pretty tricky to deal with. Base 134 attack is very good, and 100/110/100+sand defenses is very good as well. The only thing holding it back is its speed. That being said, the weaknesses rock dark provide can easily be overcome this gen thanks to Tera. Tbh, I think tera might push it a little over the edge, but players smarter than me can do a better job articulating why.
Other than that, I can maybe see Hydreigon being voted on, but nothing else really sticks out to me. Tbh, the only thing I could see getting qb'd is Bax, with Ttar and Hydra maybe getting suspect tests.
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I personally don't see why Tyranitar would need a suspect test and I would love it if you (or anyone else with the same sentiment) elaborated more as to why, as your current argument seems to be based on its stats in a shell more than anything. To me, Tyranitar has several flaws that can be easily exploited once the set has been revealed (Something you might simply be able to tell at team preview).
Personally, I think SpD Tyranitar gives the most value right now and if we look at this set it does what you expect it to. You take advantage of the sand giving a boost to its SpD to handle threats like Specs Noivern, Gengar, Polteageist, Toxtricity, Kilowattrel, Hydreigon, Jugulis, etc. Though most don't struggle to wear down Ttar over the course of a game. While it still keeps the high attack stat you aren't remotely as threatening and has some minor 4MSS. Without Ice Beam you struggle to keep rocks up reliably against a team with Donphan and no EQ means you give turns to Lucario, Tink, and Bisharp (ofc you could solely rely on Twave to punish them).
Banded has few resists but that isn't exactly something uncommon for many Pokemon in this tier. While sand still makes it bulky and a good response to the above mons, it is more of a soft check to some. You don't switch into a Specs Draco more than once from the Dragons for example. The slow Speed tier is the biggest flaw here because it gives it few turns to actually wallbreak against so many offensive threats in the tier. I don't want to undermine how powerful of a breaker this set is because you can definitely 2HKO or OHKO the tier but the Speed tier and multitude of weaknesses set it back.
Tera was brought up, which sure you could Tera into another typing to avoid being KO'd by something and KO it back instead but this can be done by almost anything in the tier. I think Ttar is personally a mediocre Tera user and I've only ever Tera-Ground to remove Sandy Shocks and Tox that may greed the Volt on SpD sets. However, there is a big flaw with Tera Ttar and that is if you Tera into any typing that isn't Rock you no longer get the SpD boost from sand. You lose a LOT of your bulk and all the defensive qualities you really want from Tyranitars typing.
I haven't brought up DD Tyranitar but unless you are Jolly you can't outspeed base 110s, you are slower than every common scarfer in the tier, and you need the turn to set up. Ofc some of this can be offset by screens for example with this set. I think Tyranitar is just decent at best right now and believe there are other things more pressing to look at.
Stuff I'd like the council to vote on:
I think Pif described it well on !PS about how it is just a stronger, faster, bulkier Mamoswine that can DD or SD. I think some people are being a bit extreme about how it just auto wins but it is too constraining. Your defensive checks are usually limited to Body Press Slowbro (Tera-Fairy is a safety net) and Orthworm unless you want to run Forre or Bronzong. DD is hard to revenge kill and SD Ice Shard prevents frailer stuff from revenging it. A big issue is Tera, which I reckon will be a trend for DD Dragons as this tier develops but this mon is too strong regardless. It doesn't offer this tier anything really and I'm sure if it goes you could literally slap Haxorus in its place and do similar shit.
Tera just makes Hydreigon too much for the tier imo. Tera Steel on SubPlot turns every Fairy into setup fodder so they all just suck at being a response to it (The same applies for every Dragon, very nice). It also has a lot of flexibility in its sets. Specs is an absolute nuke when the only defensive Fairy really seeing usage is Tink (There is Scream but it is neutral) and Scarf is just a great revenge killer/cleaner. It can very easily run NP 3 Attacks or even Taunt if it needs to play around Encore from a Tink or Scream Tail.
Stuff that should be kept an eye on:
Higher on my list:
I put Bisharp on literally everything so perhaps that is why it isn't in the above list and why other mons aren't listed here. Specs Shadow Ball is just free, that is all. STAB combo is insane and Focus hits everything else like Ttar. Trick then just seals the deal against other defensive walls. Scarf is very good as a cleaner and wincon too. Most of the time I've found NP to be pretty mid because you just can't find many chances to actually set up but the set is still something you have to consider. High Speed tier makes it hard to revenge too outside of priority and scarfers (if it isn't scarf itself for the latter). If Gengar gets nommed for a vote that would be fine because if Hydreigon goes then that is one less Ghost resist for it anyways.
I think Slither is pretty constricting to play against personally. Unless you have Salamence or Talonflame you aren't having the greatest time against it. Yeah, you have some other checks like Noivern and Gyarados but they do not take CC well at all, especially if Gyarados isn't Intimidate. I've even found myself using Pelipper on a team outside of rain. It is such a powerful wallbreaker, has great bulk, and can act as a revenge killer. Banded U-turn is enough to win games up front in some matchups. It also has the flexibility for other items like Pads, Powder, and Boots. Imagine if it had an ability.
Lower on my list:
I'm quite surprised no one talks about Hawlucha tbh. It is probably one of the easiest Pokemon to enable for a sweep imo. You don't even need to go ham on the whole terrain thing either. You can just run Choice Scarf Indeedee, which is a decent revenge killer and has the utility of Trick and Healing Wish while it being a way to enable Hawlucha. Tera is also cool here because you can actually make your Lucha immune to prio if you lose the Flying typing. Without terrain White Herb is good enough to achieve the same thing given the Speed tier puts it above most stuff anyways to actually get the CC off, Tera also potentially making that even easier. Taunt lets you beat Quag and you can even consider Sub. The biggest issue has been rain mons being faster and Flame Body from Talon for me, otherwise, it usually wins most games.
Yeah, I agree with the general consensus here about Baxcalibur being too much for UU. I’ve really been enjoying using it, but it’s super constraining and begets niche answers in the teambuilder. With snow and/or Veil support it becomes even harder to revenge kill this thing.
For shits and giggles: here is a replay in which my Bax at +4 2HKOed Avalugg in snow lmao
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-1763922370-ulpm91qrex2xzx6m4ieoijz72d73vorpw
For shits and giggles: here is a replay in which my Bax at +4 2HKOed Avalugg in snow lmao
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-1763922370-ulpm91qrex2xzx6m4ieoijz72d73vorpw
hi everyone qob here, i wanted to share some pokemon that i think are quite underrated right now and have a good matchup into some top meta threats!
1. Hariyama
Hariyama @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 96 Atk / 160 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge
- Heavy Slam
this assault vest set for hariyama with thick fat and tera fairy has a great matchup into hydreigon and baxcalibur which are the two threats at the top of most peoples lists right now. for the moves i went drain punch over close combat for recovery, knock off because thats such a valuable tool right now especially with the limited distribution it has, stone edge hits flying types like talonflame and heavy slam hits the fairy types. with thick fat and the fighting typing it walls the most common moves hydreigon uses in flamethrower and dark pulse (takes around 45 from flash cannon) and if you tera fairy it walls baxcalibur aswell. for the evs i hit a jump point in attack with a good amount of investment so you do good damage with your moves, then i just dumped the rest into spdef and defense because im lazy :)
weaknesses:
this pokemons gets chipped down by status and hazards and sand quite alot because of its lack of recovery, i have been pairing it with wish scream tail to remedy this. it doesnt take physical attacks that it doesnt resist very well, from memory i think tinkaton gigaton hammer does like 55% to it
2. Heracross
Heracross @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Facade
- Trailblaze
ive found heracross just has really good coverage into alot of the metagame right now with stab guts boosted close combats and facade never being a bad thing. close combat and facade are must haves for heracross, i then went for earthquake to hit gengar, trailblaze is a cool move heracross got access to this gen which sorta makes up for its poor speed tier allowing it to basically have a hcoice band from guts aswell as a choice scarf after a speed boost turning this bug into a huge threat. most of the physical walls in the tier cant handle this guy very well, the flying types altaria and talonflame get bopped pretty hard by facade, same thing with quagsire and orthworm gets deleted by close combat. speaking of orthworm, i have found that to be a good partner for heracross since behind a substitute this pokemon is even more terrifying. for the evs i just went max speed and attack with a timid nature to do as much damage and outspeed as much as possible.
weaknesses:
this pokemons physical defense stat isnt the greatest so it doesnt like all the physical priority flying around right now. this mon also gets chipped down pretty fast with flame orb chip
3. Toxtricity (choice scarf)
Toxtricity @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Punk Rock
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overdrive
- Volt Switch
- Boomburst
- Sludge Bomb
the most common toxtricity set right now is choice specs, but i think another great set that doesnt get enough use is a choice scarf set. the speed choice scarf gives you, whilst not letting you revenge speed boosted mons or anything, lets you outspeed and kill alot of things that you would normally be threatened out by. you lose out on some of the power that specs gives you but you still to enough damage to break through alot of the meta but with the extra speed you can catch pokes like sandy shocks off guard with a surprise scarf boomburst (which ohkoes if you tera normal).
180 base power stab boombursts are incredibly hard to switch into for the common special walls like gastrodon and scream tail even without specs.
weaknesses: pretty slow for a scarfer, and often needs to terastalize to be able to do its job properly. all three of this pokemons moves have types immune to them which causes quite a few 50/50s
hope this post was somewhat informative and maybe gave you some fun ideas for teambuilding :)
1. Hariyama
Hariyama @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 96 Atk / 160 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge
- Heavy Slam
this assault vest set for hariyama with thick fat and tera fairy has a great matchup into hydreigon and baxcalibur which are the two threats at the top of most peoples lists right now. for the moves i went drain punch over close combat for recovery, knock off because thats such a valuable tool right now especially with the limited distribution it has, stone edge hits flying types like talonflame and heavy slam hits the fairy types. with thick fat and the fighting typing it walls the most common moves hydreigon uses in flamethrower and dark pulse (takes around 45 from flash cannon) and if you tera fairy it walls baxcalibur aswell. for the evs i hit a jump point in attack with a good amount of investment so you do good damage with your moves, then i just dumped the rest into spdef and defense because im lazy :)
weaknesses:
this pokemons gets chipped down by status and hazards and sand quite alot because of its lack of recovery, i have been pairing it with wish scream tail to remedy this. it doesnt take physical attacks that it doesnt resist very well, from memory i think tinkaton gigaton hammer does like 55% to it
2. Heracross
Heracross @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Facade
- Trailblaze
ive found heracross just has really good coverage into alot of the metagame right now with stab guts boosted close combats and facade never being a bad thing. close combat and facade are must haves for heracross, i then went for earthquake to hit gengar, trailblaze is a cool move heracross got access to this gen which sorta makes up for its poor speed tier allowing it to basically have a hcoice band from guts aswell as a choice scarf after a speed boost turning this bug into a huge threat. most of the physical walls in the tier cant handle this guy very well, the flying types altaria and talonflame get bopped pretty hard by facade, same thing with quagsire and orthworm gets deleted by close combat. speaking of orthworm, i have found that to be a good partner for heracross since behind a substitute this pokemon is even more terrifying. for the evs i just went max speed and attack with a timid nature to do as much damage and outspeed as much as possible.
weaknesses:
this pokemons physical defense stat isnt the greatest so it doesnt like all the physical priority flying around right now. this mon also gets chipped down pretty fast with flame orb chip
3. Toxtricity (choice scarf)
Toxtricity @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Punk Rock
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overdrive
- Volt Switch
- Boomburst
- Sludge Bomb
the most common toxtricity set right now is choice specs, but i think another great set that doesnt get enough use is a choice scarf set. the speed choice scarf gives you, whilst not letting you revenge speed boosted mons or anything, lets you outspeed and kill alot of things that you would normally be threatened out by. you lose out on some of the power that specs gives you but you still to enough damage to break through alot of the meta but with the extra speed you can catch pokes like sandy shocks off guard with a surprise scarf boomburst (which ohkoes if you tera normal).
180 base power stab boombursts are incredibly hard to switch into for the common special walls like gastrodon and scream tail even without specs.
weaknesses: pretty slow for a scarfer, and often needs to terastalize to be able to do its job properly. all three of this pokemons moves have types immune to them which causes quite a few 50/50s
252 Atk Baxcalibur Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 160 Def Thick Fat Hariyama: 91-108 (21.2 - 25.1%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Baxcalibur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 160 Def Hariyama: 142-168 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
56 Atk Mold Breaker Tinkaton Gigaton Hammer vs. 0 HP / 160 Def Hariyama: 177-208 (41.2 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 123-145 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 92-108 (21.4 - 25.1%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
+2 252 SpA Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Hariyama: 69-82 (16 - 19.1%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Guts Tera Normal Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 267-315 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Tera Normal Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204 Def Talonflame: 343-405 (95.2 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Guts Tera Normal Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Altaria: 274-324 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Guts Tera Normal Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Orthworm: 318-374 (92.4 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Punk Rock Tera Normal Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 220-261 (51.6 - 61.2%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Punk Rock Tera Normal Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scream Tail: 240-283 (55.2 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tera Normal Toxtricity Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Wo-Chien: 168-198 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Baxcalibur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 160 Def Hariyama: 142-168 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
56 Atk Mold Breaker Tinkaton Gigaton Hammer vs. 0 HP / 160 Def Hariyama: 177-208 (41.2 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 123-145 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 92-108 (21.4 - 25.1%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
+2 252 SpA Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Hariyama: 69-82 (16 - 19.1%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Guts Tera Normal Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 267-315 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Tera Normal Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204 Def Talonflame: 343-405 (95.2 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Guts Tera Normal Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 180+ Def Altaria: 274-324 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Guts Tera Normal Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Orthworm: 318-374 (92.4 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Punk Rock Tera Normal Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 220-261 (51.6 - 61.2%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Punk Rock Tera Normal Toxtricity Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scream Tail: 240-283 (55.2 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tera Normal Toxtricity Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Wo-Chien: 168-198 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
hope this post was somewhat informative and maybe gave you some fun ideas for teambuilding :)
Low ladder player gives his thoughts one what should be considered…
My Guy gets his own tier
I tried to convince myself that Bax wasn’t broken, it is. Glaive Rush, beats every non-fairy or steel, EQ, beats Steels, Ice moves, beats everything the other moves don’t, it doesn’t have a good check, other than Orthworm, oops, Banded Tera Fighting/Fire
.
Strong Sweeper/Wall Tier
Hydreigon is very, very good, it can run specs (my personal preference), nasty plot, scarf, it has an AMAZING movepool to boot, and a very nice axe hat with Levitate make it only weak to two types.
I guess Hydreigon got his own tier so this gets one too
Is it super easy to exploit, yes, does it kill everything in sight when you don’t, yes. I think it should be considered, but it’s not particularly too broken
My Guy gets his own tier
I tried to convince myself that Bax wasn’t broken, it is. Glaive Rush, beats every non-fairy or steel, EQ, beats Steels, Ice moves, beats everything the other moves don’t, it doesn’t have a good check, other than Orthworm, oops, Banded Tera Fighting/Fire
.Strong Sweeper/Wall Tier
Hydreigon is very, very good, it can run specs (my personal preference), nasty plot, scarf, it has an AMAZING movepool to boot, and a very nice axe hat with Levitate make it only weak to two types.
I guess Hydreigon got his own tier so this gets one too
Is it super easy to exploit, yes, does it kill everything in sight when you don’t, yes. I think it should be considered, but it’s not particularly too broken
Is it super easy to exploit, yes, does it kill everything in sight when you don’t, yes. I think it should be considered, but it’s not particularly too broken
Lokix is interesting as mons that rely on their resistances to live a FImp may have difficulties with it while mons that check it due to their bulk will have no problems with it; but those mons are hit harder by Slither Wing's FImp so what counters one may leave you vulnerable to the other.
I wonder if it isn't just inferior to Iron Thorns in this role anyway, Thorns offers the same power but significantly more speed which lets you outpace basically the entire unboosted meta after a DD + Booster Energy gives you an immediate power boost that I feel limits Ttar in how much it can do without multiple DDs under its belt. The loss in special bulk is notable of course but on the other hand, Thorns's defensive typing lets it set up on and/or beat things that Ttar would struggle against a lot more, i.e. Orthworm, Bisharp, Tinkaton. It also is less vulnerable to certain prio moves like Lucario's BP or Lokix's FI. I don't even think Thorns is that amazing but I feel that much like Mega Ttar it is more geared towards that DD sweeper role compared to plain old Ttar.
Since it came up already I wanna talk a bit about Tyranitar, specifically DD Tyranitar. The mon is obviously exceptional and arguably the best in the tier, but DD is going a bit under the radar I think. DD Tar might seem somewhat outclassed by Thorns offensively but it's really not imo. I've been using it the past few days and it's so much easier to find setup opportunities + you're much more threatening after boosting bc dark > electric. Especially behind screens, there are very few mons that can do much of anything to Tyranitar without a Fighting move, for example:
0 Atk Mold Breaker Tinkaton Gigaton Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar through Reflect: 126-148 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar through Reflect: 118-139 (34.6 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Tera Steel Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand through Light Screen: 85-102 (24.9 - 29.9%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand through Light Screen: 84-100 (24.6 - 29.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
This isn't even acknowledging the amount of mons you borderline invalidate; shit like Slowking, some Grafaiai, Scream Tail, Armarouge and Iron Jugulis can't really do -anything- to you with their standard sets, This makes it pretty easy to get 1, 2 and sometimes even 3 Dragon Dances off, at which point it's really tough to handle. The speed tier is mid in theory but realistically you're only outsped by 2 mons at +2 - Noivern, which admittedly sucks if you've taken ~50% chip since Specs Draco does 50-60%, and Talonflame, which also theoretically sucks if you're not Lum but DD Tar really should be running Lum and at that point you just DD again on it for free.
Dark STAB is also just really good tbh. Of all the mons that are UU by usage, 5 resist Rock and Dark - Tinkaton, Lucario, Klefki, Bisharp, and Paldean Water Tauros. 4 of those are weak to Earthquake, meaning your STABs + EQ smacks -everything- shy of Tauros which is admittedly a really good check, but it's really just that and Quagsire that can claim to be a TTar counter.
Basically the mon is really good please give it a try!! It's a really big threat w/ just DD Edge Crunch EQ and you can do fun things with its Tera type if you really want to (though I just stuck with Rock bc I like strong Edges).
0 Atk Mold Breaker Tinkaton Gigaton Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar through Reflect: 126-148 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar through Reflect: 118-139 (34.6 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Tera Steel Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand through Light Screen: 85-102 (24.9 - 29.9%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand through Light Screen: 84-100 (24.6 - 29.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
This isn't even acknowledging the amount of mons you borderline invalidate; shit like Slowking, some Grafaiai, Scream Tail, Armarouge and Iron Jugulis can't really do -anything- to you with their standard sets, This makes it pretty easy to get 1, 2 and sometimes even 3 Dragon Dances off, at which point it's really tough to handle. The speed tier is mid in theory but realistically you're only outsped by 2 mons at +2 - Noivern, which admittedly sucks if you've taken ~50% chip since Specs Draco does 50-60%, and Talonflame, which also theoretically sucks if you're not Lum but DD Tar really should be running Lum and at that point you just DD again on it for free.
Dark STAB is also just really good tbh. Of all the mons that are UU by usage, 5 resist Rock and Dark - Tinkaton, Lucario, Klefki, Bisharp, and Paldean Water Tauros. 4 of those are weak to Earthquake, meaning your STABs + EQ smacks -everything- shy of Tauros which is admittedly a really good check, but it's really just that and Quagsire that can claim to be a TTar counter.
Basically the mon is really good please give it a try!! It's a really big threat w/ just DD Edge Crunch EQ and you can do fun things with its Tera type if you really want to (though I just stuck with Rock bc I like strong Edges).
It's pretty interesting to me that Lokix and Slither Wing are brought up because those really aren't problems to me until they go into Tera Bug. At that point though, Slither Wing starts one-shotting resists with CB Fimp and both mons start doing 30-40% to walls with their U-Turns. You're usually not instantly crumbling to these mons, but if your opponent starts maximizing the damage of their utility bug move, the damage just becomes pretty crazy. Something like Lucario takes around 70% from Lokix's Tera Bug Choice Band Fimp despite its double resistance. Anyway, I'm not sure I'd be ready to call those broken especially because of the metagame's best friend Talonflame, but I'd have to agree they can get very scary.
As an aside, here's a set that I first made as a joke/gimmick that's actually been winning a fair amount.
Veluza @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fillet Away
- Recover
- Stored Power
- Ice Beam / Surf
Most people know about Veluza's signature move, Fillet Away, but I've seen a decent amount of people being surprised that it gets Recover. If you don't know Fillet Away gives a +2 to Veluza's Attack, Special Attack and Speed at the cost of halving its HP. While this is generally a greater bulk decrease than Shell Smash and I'd say Veluza is worse than something like Cloyster, Drednaw and Polteageist as a pure sweeper as a result, Recover gives it a pretty unique role due to the different ways people generally try to handle Veluza. With a Water/Psychic typing, it has a lot of resistances to use against defensive pokemon such as the Slowtwins, Orthworm and Avalugg, pokemon that would normally be able to handle a physical Sharpness set. At that point, you can usually heal up and get another Fillet Away in or just start blasting with Stored Power which has decent power at this point. You also get to setup on Altaria and Talonflame as well as some choice-locked opponents. This wouldn't be enough without Tera though, moves like First Impression and Sucker Punch can be quite deadly and some teams may not have easy setup opportunities. This makes Tera Steel quite valuable, giving it a better defensive typing to deal with priority and the rest of the meta that expects to hit it super effectively. Though generally, I'd recommend pairing Veluza with Screens because halved health is still a rough temporary bulk decrease, even with the defensive investment. The Speed investment allows you to outspeed Talonflame at +2, it's not really a pokemon you fear, but I was already investing for Kilowattrel and Talon wasn't far so I just went for it. Anyway feel free to try this set, I still have a hard time believing it works, but it might be worth trying.
As an aside, here's a set that I first made as a joke/gimmick that's actually been winning a fair amount.
Veluza @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fillet Away
- Recover
- Stored Power
- Ice Beam / Surf
Most people know about Veluza's signature move, Fillet Away, but I've seen a decent amount of people being surprised that it gets Recover. If you don't know Fillet Away gives a +2 to Veluza's Attack, Special Attack and Speed at the cost of halving its HP. While this is generally a greater bulk decrease than Shell Smash and I'd say Veluza is worse than something like Cloyster, Drednaw and Polteageist as a pure sweeper as a result, Recover gives it a pretty unique role due to the different ways people generally try to handle Veluza. With a Water/Psychic typing, it has a lot of resistances to use against defensive pokemon such as the Slowtwins, Orthworm and Avalugg, pokemon that would normally be able to handle a physical Sharpness set. At that point, you can usually heal up and get another Fillet Away in or just start blasting with Stored Power which has decent power at this point. You also get to setup on Altaria and Talonflame as well as some choice-locked opponents. This wouldn't be enough without Tera though, moves like First Impression and Sucker Punch can be quite deadly and some teams may not have easy setup opportunities. This makes Tera Steel quite valuable, giving it a better defensive typing to deal with priority and the rest of the meta that expects to hit it super effectively. Though generally, I'd recommend pairing Veluza with Screens because halved health is still a rough temporary bulk decrease, even with the defensive investment. The Speed investment allows you to outspeed Talonflame at +2, it's not really a pokemon you fear, but I was already investing for Kilowattrel and Talon wasn't far so I just went for it. Anyway feel free to try this set, I still have a hard time believing it works, but it might be worth trying.
Higher on my list:
I put Bisharp on literally everything so perhaps that is why it isn't in the above list and why other mons aren't listed here. Specs Shadow Ball is just free, that is all. STAB combo is insane and Focus hits everything else like Ttar. Trick then just seals the deal against other defensive walls. Scarf is very good as a cleaner and wincon too. Most of the time I've found NP to be pretty mid because you just can't find many chances to actually set up but the set is still something you have to consider. High Speed tier makes it hard to revenge too outside of priority and scarfers (if it isn't scarf itself for the latter). If Gengar gets nommed for a vote that would be fine because if Hydreigon goes then that is one less Ghost resist for it anyways.
It feels like this is the first time I've ever seen someone else put Gengar high on their suspect list, since everyone I've asked always goes with the basic duo + some other filler pick. I could not agree more with the notion that Gengar just completely dumpsters the entire format at the moment and I honestly find it shocking that more people don't parrot this opinion. Maybe it's because it wasn't as suffocating during the Alpha period solely because of how it's two greatest checks, Grafai and Tinkaton were borderline omnipresent during the Alpha because of how they also served as amazing checks to the best mon in the tier, Espathra, who was dumpstering the format at the time. But with these two becoming signifficantly less common I predict that Gengar is going to shine ever brighter than ever before.
Either way the counterplay against this mon is nonexistant thanks to every potential check getting Tricked, Sludge Bomb Poisoned or 2hko'd with a proper prediction. When I use a bulkier team I often find myself having to dedicate two teamslots to pokemon that can check this and even then the matchup is still shaky solely because of how idiot proof Gengar is 9/10. This would be fine is Gengar didn't have any defensive utility to speak of, but that's just not the case since it 4x resists the most reliable form of priority and has 2 immunities, while also being one of the fastest mons in the tier. Maybe it's the stall bias kicking in, but either way I can not wait for Gengar to leave the tier.
Edit: When I'm talking about non Gengar haters I'm not talking about Respect +1 people ofc.
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Hey y'all, the council has decided on a voting slate. We'll be making an On The Radar thread for future instances of this, but in the interest of transparency here's what we plan to do right now. We're going to be voting on Baxcalibur, Hydreigon, Gengar, and Rain*.
*rain may end up being either Pelipper or Floatzel if it reaches the ban threshold
If you have any thoughts on these Pokemon, now would be a great time to get them out. We're always reading this thread and could definitely do with more opinions from the community. Thank you!
*rain may end up being either Pelipper or Floatzel if it reaches the ban threshold
If you have any thoughts on these Pokemon, now would be a great time to get them out. We're always reading this thread and could definitely do with more opinions from the community. Thank you!
I don't think anything on the slate is particularly banworthy. Baxcalibur might be suspect worthy though, but definitely not quickban-worthy.
I never understood the sentiment on Hydreigon - I've never really struggled against it and losing Roost makes it easier to wear down. For sure it is a very good mon, but I don't find it broken at all. Might just be a difference of opinion/playstyle, but I definitely would not say it's quickban worthy if I (and I'm sure others) don't really struggle with it. Maybe a suspect for it as well.
Rain is just rain, tera Floatzel is definitely oppressive and it's even good in OU too. But I'd like to see it more before really thinking it's broken - I don't think anything else in rain is broken besides Floatzel though if it came down to that.
Everyone needs to stop trying to ban ghosts in UU.
I never understood the sentiment on Hydreigon - I've never really struggled against it and losing Roost makes it easier to wear down. For sure it is a very good mon, but I don't find it broken at all. Might just be a difference of opinion/playstyle, but I definitely would not say it's quickban worthy if I (and I'm sure others) don't really struggle with it. Maybe a suspect for it as well.
Rain is just rain, tera Floatzel is definitely oppressive and it's even good in OU too. But I'd like to see it more before really thinking it's broken - I don't think anything else in rain is broken besides Floatzel though if it came down to that.
Everyone needs to stop trying to ban ghosts in UU.
Hey y'all, the council has decided on a voting slate. We'll be making an On The Radar thread for future instances of this, but in the interest of transparency here's what we plan to do right now. We're going to be voting on Baxcalibur, Hydreigon, Gengar, and Rain*.
*rain may end up being either Pelipper or Floatzel if it reaches the ban threshold
POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOG
THE GOATED SLATE
Bax is literally the most aids thing rn, there's extremely limited counterplay of unmons like Tera Fairy Body Press Slowbro or being forced to run Orthworm (or Ditto, which is already a bad enough sign.) I've straight up stopped playing UU until the council inevitably finishes their votes on this quickban slate, since even though I'm at 1600 there's still the occasional person running Screens+Orth+Bax+Maus and there's literally nothing I can do at that point. It's the one mon I want 200% GONE.
Hydrei deserves to go, even though I'll be sad to see it go. Way too versatile and efficient of a breaker, Tera just makes it perfectly consistent in almost every game. Tera Steel is stupid, and because everyone uses Tera Steel, you can occasionally get away with jank like Poison or Fairy because of what normally gets thrown at Steel Hydrei and jank past unfavorable matchups. It's also horrid when screens are up. I made a meme a bit ago, and I feel it rewarrants posting;
Gengar I'm on the fence on, mostly because Spdef Tar is unironically excellent rn and completely stuffs it, and a bunch other mons are soft checks. SubNP like Hydreigon imo is its best set followed up almost immediately by Specs, both of which are fantastic wallbreakers and make great progress whenever they come in. Gengar suffers from being susceptible to anything above 110 speed, Scarfers, and priority not named ExtremeSpeed being a thorn in its side, but I could totes see it get banned.
PLEASEBANRAIN PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASEPLEASEPSLEAESALESPAELPASDVIRGF IT'S SO UNFUN. It's not even that STRONG right now, but it's just horrifically irritating to run into since there isn't a great number of proper rain counters, and I'd really not rather force myself to run Quag or 4 Priority users on one team, especially when the former can just get Tera Grass'd by Floatzel or Skewda and suddenly there's no Water Absorber. It's just not cool, at all, not fun when Showown fun tournaments have 4 matches in a row of just Rain or Screens Rain.
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IMO the least defined mon here is Gengar. By which I mean - Bax is usually scariest when DD, Hydreigon NP, Floatzel CB, Pelipper with Damp Rock Uturn.
But idk about Gengar tbh - specs and NP are both threatening and Scarf is super common but not as scary usually. Even the moves on these sets aren’t that intuitive to me. What’s the most broken Gengar set?(which does not necessarily imply it is broken)
But idk about Gengar tbh - specs and NP are both threatening and Scarf is super common but not as scary usually. Even the moves on these sets aren’t that intuitive to me. What’s the most broken Gengar set?(which does not necessarily imply it is broken)
Not really much of a Forums poster, but I've played a lot of UU since Alpha began, so I feel like I can offer some decent insight here.
Hydreigon needs at minimum a suspect test, if not a quickban. The defensive profile this mon has both before and after Tera Steel can not be underwritten, and it allows Hydrei to set up a sub on many of the tier's staples: Quag, Slowking, Gastro, Talon, Tsareena, Tink (no encore). The main issue is that there's an utter lack of mons who can both break the sub and survive even unboosted attacks over the course of the battle. Water and Fire Tauros are the just about the only mons not named Blissey that can do this before and after Tera. Even against more offensive teams, Hydreigon can leverage its adjustable defensive profile to check Pokes like Armarouge, Sandy Shocks, Noivern, Mence, and even Baxcalibur. And a lot of this applies to its second-best set--Choice Scarf--as well. If you're ever in a position where you have an open sixth slot, you might as well just throw Hydreigon on there. There's no cost to teambuilding when using it, yet a huge burden on teambuilding to handle it. Its power level simply exceeds what UU has access to at this time.
After Hydreigon, I'd say Baxcalibur is the most constricting mon in the tier. Things like Orthworm and Tera Fairy Quagsire have emerged as stop-gaps to DD sets, but even these need to be cautious of Band. It is more limited by typing and speed tier than Hydreigon, so Banded sets are more prone to revenge killing and being worn down by hazards, but the way it just deletes Pokemon is similarly too much for this stage of UU. Tera Dragon Glaive Rush in a tier where our best Fairies are passive (Scream Tail) or mauled by EQ (Tink) is a bit absurd. Hatterene and especially Azumarill leaving before this mon dropped to UU is definitely unfortunate.
I've seen and used Gengar so sparingly that I don't have much to offer here, but I will say that rain is absolutely not broken. Bulky water resists/immunities and powerful priority are everywhere in this tier, and with Pelipper losing Defog, it becomes much more difficult for Rain to have the sustain it needs to get through some of the fatter builds in the tier. Its best match-up is into weatherless offense, and even then, it needs to be wary of mons like Slither Wing, Lucario, Hydreigon, Bax, and Water Tauros. I see it as being more match-up fishy than overtly busted like Hydrei and Bax, and wouldn't support tiering action at this time.
Hydreigon needs at minimum a suspect test, if not a quickban. The defensive profile this mon has both before and after Tera Steel can not be underwritten, and it allows Hydrei to set up a sub on many of the tier's staples: Quag, Slowking, Gastro, Talon, Tsareena, Tink (no encore). The main issue is that there's an utter lack of mons who can both break the sub and survive even unboosted attacks over the course of the battle. Water and Fire Tauros are the just about the only mons not named Blissey that can do this before and after Tera. Even against more offensive teams, Hydreigon can leverage its adjustable defensive profile to check Pokes like Armarouge, Sandy Shocks, Noivern, Mence, and even Baxcalibur. And a lot of this applies to its second-best set--Choice Scarf--as well. If you're ever in a position where you have an open sixth slot, you might as well just throw Hydreigon on there. There's no cost to teambuilding when using it, yet a huge burden on teambuilding to handle it. Its power level simply exceeds what UU has access to at this time.
After Hydreigon, I'd say Baxcalibur is the most constricting mon in the tier. Things like Orthworm and Tera Fairy Quagsire have emerged as stop-gaps to DD sets, but even these need to be cautious of Band. It is more limited by typing and speed tier than Hydreigon, so Banded sets are more prone to revenge killing and being worn down by hazards, but the way it just deletes Pokemon is similarly too much for this stage of UU. Tera Dragon Glaive Rush in a tier where our best Fairies are passive (Scream Tail) or mauled by EQ (Tink) is a bit absurd. Hatterene and especially Azumarill leaving before this mon dropped to UU is definitely unfortunate.
I've seen and used Gengar so sparingly that I don't have much to offer here, but I will say that rain is absolutely not broken. Bulky water resists/immunities and powerful priority are everywhere in this tier, and with Pelipper losing Defog, it becomes much more difficult for Rain to have the sustain it needs to get through some of the fatter builds in the tier. Its best match-up is into weatherless offense, and even then, it needs to be wary of mons like Slither Wing, Lucario, Hydreigon, Bax, and Water Tauros. I see it as being more match-up fishy than overtly busted like Hydrei and Bax, and wouldn't support tiering action at this time.
I haven't run into many problems with Gengar so far to be honest. Though to be fair I'm running some non-standard sets so my experience may not be the same as everyone else, but every time I've ran into it I've shut it down before it nabbed a KO. Priority, Sucker Punch/First Impression/Shadow Sneak all seem to get the job done... Or if it doesn't KO on hit most hard hitting mons send it to a quick grave. Note: I'm not saying it doesn't threaten teams, or that it isn't a solid sweeper, but I feel it's heavily exaggerated how good it is, especially with the likes of Hydreigon running around.
Floatzel on the other hand is certainly something to be tested, even when I often win it's always in the "barely" situation. I think it's more QB worthy to be honest. Peliper and rain dance with one of it's most prominent members might not be so absurd once it lacks Floatzel me thinks. Most of the other members are very fragile outside of Floatzel. Weather will always be popular but outside as mentioned Flaoatzel most of the rain dance commons are easily play aroundable.
Baxcalibur I feel if not QB is heavily suspect. If you have no more priority mons left, can easily wipe a team. Not many can survive a +1 and it often gets to +2. At first I wasn't sure when I saw it, but after facing it multiple times, it certainly feels ban worthy.
Hydreigon I feel is more QB worthy. It's good anti-lead, mid game, and late game. +2 hurts in general. If it gets Sub up even without +2 it's taking something with it. Noivern can stop non-tera subbers, but if it runs non-sub Scarf you lose, and until you know the set it's still near guaranteed to take a mon if not multiple. It's also why I gave up defog on Noivern for Flamethrower/Heatwave
Personally I feel Slitherwing is more suspect worthy than Gengar in UU. Lokix is more common, but from my own time using it, even some of it's checks take some hefty damage depending on set. CB is life though.
Floatzel on the other hand is certainly something to be tested, even when I often win it's always in the "barely" situation. I think it's more QB worthy to be honest. Peliper and rain dance with one of it's most prominent members might not be so absurd once it lacks Floatzel me thinks. Most of the other members are very fragile outside of Floatzel. Weather will always be popular but outside as mentioned Flaoatzel most of the rain dance commons are easily play aroundable.
Baxcalibur I feel if not QB is heavily suspect. If you have no more priority mons left, can easily wipe a team. Not many can survive a +1 and it often gets to +2. At first I wasn't sure when I saw it, but after facing it multiple times, it certainly feels ban worthy.
Hydreigon I feel is more QB worthy. It's good anti-lead, mid game, and late game. +2 hurts in general. If it gets Sub up even without +2 it's taking something with it. Noivern can stop non-tera subbers, but if it runs non-sub Scarf you lose, and until you know the set it's still near guaranteed to take a mon if not multiple. It's also why I gave up defog on Noivern for Flamethrower/Heatwave
Personally I feel Slitherwing is more suspect worthy than Gengar in UU. Lokix is more common, but from my own time using it, even some of it's checks take some hefty damage depending on set. CB is life though.
This mon is really dumb, it has really limited counters, and pretty much all of them have some issues depending on the set or how the player uses it. Meta rn has felt super centralized with very similar teams either using a lot of Scream Tail/Orthworm or a lot of priority (or even some rogue Avaluggs outside of stall, which is kinda crazy) Feels like teams and players bend over backwards to try to deal with it and, even then, it remains effective because of its set variety and support options. You gotta prep multiple answers for it or else you risk getting completely ran over. I've built teams with 3 different answers to it that still need to play carefully to avoid getting overwhelmed and I think this meta feels absolutely horrible to play because Bax is just crazy hard to deal with. I was thinking this felt QB worthy from day 1 and I have not changed my mind.
I think Hydreigon is at fault for making Tinkaton and Scream Tail spam Encore like there's no tomorrow. If it can get in on a pokemon that can't do much to it (and there are a lot of those between Levitate, its base typing and Tera Steel), it just gets a sub up and your answers become extremely limited. The best answer is Encore Scream Tail with heavy Speed investment (152 Timid) which gets hit for a good chunk of damage by Tera Flash Cannon on the switch. Next there's Blissey which just drops to one well timed Flinch. You also have Tinkaton which just tries to Encore a pokemon that knows it's gonna get Encored and it lacks reliable recovery so it's actually not a good long term plan, not to mention the chance Hydrei is just running a Fire move. Speaking of Fire move vs Flash Cannon, you can try to slot Bisharp and TTar to counter one or the other, but they don't have great ways to kill Hydrei, especially Bisharp so that's not great. I could go on, but you get it. You won't find anything that truly deals with its basic set. It always has some more set options beyond that, like using Earth Power or Taunt or using Specs or Scarf. Honestly, Specs and Scarf being mentionned so late here feels like a sign to just how broken Sub NP is on its own. Hydrei and Tera cannot coexist and idt it can really stay.
I think this is just barely crossing the line of being banworthy just because of how much versatility it has within just one set. Let's take Specs as an example. Shadow Ball and Focus Blast are already hard enough to deal with as is, but then you also have Tera Ghost to break through specially bulky neutral targets like Hippo and Gastro, Sludge Bomb poison to force progress on those as well and Trick to cripple consistent switch-ins like Blissey. This is just considering the main four moves with one set, not considering other move or item options. Scarf, NP, WispHex, Tspikes, Gengar has so many sets that have different ways of screwing you over if you're trying to handle it too aggressively or too defensively. It can also tech options like Energy Ball and Encore to deal with its counters. Gengar can't run all of that in one set obviously and is pretty frail, but it feels like the kind of mon that you know you don't have a great answer to and you just have to prevent it from getting on the field at all costs. Would be fine with either ban or no ban here, I can understand wanting to see how it and the meta develops before making a choice.
Yeah I can understand Rain, it's pretty much a matchup fish. I don't think it's worth banning though, fitting counterplay isn't too hard and, when Rain runs into a tough matchup, it's just dead. You have to respect it, but I don't think it's all that oppressive. This is a POV that will really depend on the player and their building style. I wouldn't be mad if it was gone, but I don't think it's harming the tier heavily enough to justify banning it entirely. Only banning Floatzel could be an interesting approach though, once again, I don't think any part of rain is broken.
Some Thoughts From Melt Gibson:
1. Please, for the love of god, get rid of Bax. It's not healthy, not in the slightest. Four viable sets in the tier, those being Bulky Sub Ice Body, Band, DD, and SD, tied off with the icing on the shit cake that is a ton of enablers. Slowking, Klefki, and Orthworm are all insanely good with Bax, and all for different reasons. Snow and screens make its already palatable bulk genuinely a struggle to break through, and base 145 Attack, even unboosted, is insanely strong. Having to run max Defense Body Press Slowbro, Orthworm (assuming they don't Tera Fire!), or get off a lucky Thunder Wave (Assuming they don't Tera Ground!) is not a fun state to put the metagame into. "Kill me immediately or die trying" is already not a fair ultimatum for one mon to give to the entire tier, especially not when your bulk is 115/92/86 and anything that's not a Fairy gets impaled. Ban it, please.
2. Hydreigon also probably needs to go. Sub Nasty Plot beats balance and anything more passive, that's it. Automatically winning against 60% of teams in the tier is already unhealthy, but again, it has more sets! Specs and Scarf are both also just fine, with the added bonus of beating out a good portion of the checks that exist to Sub/Taunt + NP variants. Dark Pulse + Flamethrower wipes the entire tier clean, and Tera Steel just pushes it over the edge entirely. We have a lizard problem and I think that Hydreigon also needs a ban.
3. Gengar is fiiiiine. The recent drops from OU help out with it a lot, mostly SpDef Tyranitar which is genuinely very good right now. Hippowdon, Tinkaton, faster Scarfers, Maushold, and the plentiful amount of priority in the tier are also decent answers, and even Brambleghast can pick up a surprising kill with Shadow Ball or Shadow Sneak if the opposing Gengar tries to spinblock. Sub NP and Specs are nuclear wallbreakers, and Scarf can cause some issues against offensive teams not prepared with priority. It's a very strong staple in the meta right now, I would even argue a contender for top 5, but I don't think it's quite banworthy.
4. Is rain broken? No. Is it fun? Also no. I think if action is taken on Rain, it should be directed to Pelipper or Drizzle, seeing as Rain teams still have a large amount of exemplary breakers available even with Floatzel being gone. Barraskewda, Golduck, and Specs Kilowattrel are terrifying, especially seeing as Barraskewda does the same job that Floatzel does with arguably similar consistency and results. Quagsire and Gastrodon with Water Absorb or Storm Drain are kind of answers, but Tera Grass exists, so they can easily be beaten to death along with the rest of your team. I think a Pelipper or Drizzle ban is fine, but I'm also willing to see how things fall out with other tiering action being taken prior to doing something about rain. It's not fun to play against at all though.
1. Please, for the love of god, get rid of Bax. It's not healthy, not in the slightest. Four viable sets in the tier, those being Bulky Sub Ice Body, Band, DD, and SD, tied off with the icing on the shit cake that is a ton of enablers. Slowking, Klefki, and Orthworm are all insanely good with Bax, and all for different reasons. Snow and screens make its already palatable bulk genuinely a struggle to break through, and base 145 Attack, even unboosted, is insanely strong. Having to run max Defense Body Press Slowbro, Orthworm (assuming they don't Tera Fire!), or get off a lucky Thunder Wave (Assuming they don't Tera Ground!) is not a fun state to put the metagame into. "Kill me immediately or die trying" is already not a fair ultimatum for one mon to give to the entire tier, especially not when your bulk is 115/92/86 and anything that's not a Fairy gets impaled. Ban it, please.
2. Hydreigon also probably needs to go. Sub Nasty Plot beats balance and anything more passive, that's it. Automatically winning against 60% of teams in the tier is already unhealthy, but again, it has more sets! Specs and Scarf are both also just fine, with the added bonus of beating out a good portion of the checks that exist to Sub/Taunt + NP variants. Dark Pulse + Flamethrower wipes the entire tier clean, and Tera Steel just pushes it over the edge entirely. We have a lizard problem and I think that Hydreigon also needs a ban.
3. Gengar is fiiiiine. The recent drops from OU help out with it a lot, mostly SpDef Tyranitar which is genuinely very good right now. Hippowdon, Tinkaton, faster Scarfers, Maushold, and the plentiful amount of priority in the tier are also decent answers, and even Brambleghast can pick up a surprising kill with Shadow Ball or Shadow Sneak if the opposing Gengar tries to spinblock. Sub NP and Specs are nuclear wallbreakers, and Scarf can cause some issues against offensive teams not prepared with priority. It's a very strong staple in the meta right now, I would even argue a contender for top 5, but I don't think it's quite banworthy.
4. Is rain broken? No. Is it fun? Also no. I think if action is taken on Rain, it should be directed to Pelipper or Drizzle, seeing as Rain teams still have a large amount of exemplary breakers available even with Floatzel being gone. Barraskewda, Golduck, and Specs Kilowattrel are terrifying, especially seeing as Barraskewda does the same job that Floatzel does with arguably similar consistency and results. Quagsire and Gastrodon with Water Absorb or Storm Drain are kind of answers, but Tera Grass exists, so they can easily be beaten to death along with the rest of your team. I think a Pelipper or Drizzle ban is fine, but I'm also willing to see how things fall out with other tiering action being taken prior to doing something about rain. It's not fun to play against at all though.
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BAN:
- I think this is one of the most broken pokemon ever, it subs in front of half the tier for free and while not a flashy instakill button its really good at surviving forever and outlasting all of its alr limited checks. our encore mons are kinda helpless as they do too little dmg and get worn down and even pp stalled.
- too fast, too strong. its quite simple, and honestly this mon has barely gotta predict cus the stuff that tanks ur stabs gets dropped in 1 (gastro, bish, ttar) and is super easy to wear down just sballing, u force the spdef fatties (like hippo and bliss to some extent) into immensely exploitable patterns. Tink and grafai are barely not dying without predicts. This is just w specs which I think is the most broken set, NP screws over scouting tactics only adding to the pile of why this mon is terrible for the meta.
- hmmmmmm yeah not to sure abt this guy, but I'm leaning a bit more thinking its broken enough for a QB but it could be either way. This mon just has no counters, specifically the tera fire variant (heatproof zong anyone?) where u kinda have to also get the attack and tera turn right w ur worm (u can also come back later and nuke em w other move). However building w it is very hard cus the mon itself and the usual support it has leaves u vulnerable to many other threats, while u could consider this a balancing factor I think it just makes the meta worse to playand more fishy. If it doesn't go it shud 100% be suspect tested tho
DO NOT BAN:
- Yeah honestly prepping for this gang ain't that hard. Gastrodon is quite literally god, and we have a new weather setter which just picks a kill if it gets in on pelipper/wattrel and also walls the thunderbird, playing vs it can v trade heavy but if u plan ahead and honestly with just 1 prio mon u can almost always win, not to mention their vulnerability to hazards and mons like sandy shocks that these teams have. Its just abt a lil planning.
Ok now I wanna mention some stuff that shud be on the radar of the council:
- It kills everyone after a shell smash lol. Its sort of similar to rain in the sense that it gets cucked by 1 mon (tink) and weak to prio but wow it also synergises perfectly w psy terrain and the most common teras cuck slither and bish.
- This mon is very very similar to bax so it could just be the same problem after the ban. While its drag stab is a bit more abusable its insanely hard to rk after tera and mold breaker is a dumb abili, has some trade offs but almost the same issues that bax poses.
- These two are much lower on the list but tera normal and tera ice are a bit silly to deal with cus they only have like 1 good counter each, defo not banworthy rn but if they get on a meta that gives em more opportunities hmmm.
- I think this is one of the most broken pokemon ever, it subs in front of half the tier for free and while not a flashy instakill button its really good at surviving forever and outlasting all of its alr limited checks. our encore mons are kinda helpless as they do too little dmg and get worn down and even pp stalled. - too fast, too strong. its quite simple, and honestly this mon has barely gotta predict cus the stuff that tanks ur stabs gets dropped in 1 (gastro, bish, ttar) and is super easy to wear down just sballing, u force the spdef fatties (like hippo and bliss to some extent) into immensely exploitable patterns. Tink and grafai are barely not dying without predicts. This is just w specs which I think is the most broken set, NP screws over scouting tactics only adding to the pile of why this mon is terrible for the meta. - hmmmmmm yeah not to sure abt this guy, but I'm leaning a bit more thinking its broken enough for a QB but it could be either way. This mon just has no counters, specifically the tera fire variant (heatproof zong anyone?) where u kinda have to also get the attack and tera turn right w ur worm (u can also come back later and nuke em w other move). However building w it is very hard cus the mon itself and the usual support it has leaves u vulnerable to many other threats, while u could consider this a balancing factor I think it just makes the meta worse to playand more fishy. If it doesn't go it shud 100% be suspect tested thoDO NOT BAN:
- Yeah honestly prepping for this gang ain't that hard. Gastrodon is quite literally god, and we have a new weather setter which just picks a kill if it gets in on pelipper/wattrel and also walls the thunderbird, playing vs it can v trade heavy but if u plan ahead and honestly with just 1 prio mon u can almost always win, not to mention their vulnerability to hazards and mons like sandy shocks that these teams have. Its just abt a lil planning.Ok now I wanna mention some stuff that shud be on the radar of the council:
- It kills everyone after a shell smash lol. Its sort of similar to rain in the sense that it gets cucked by 1 mon (tink) and weak to prio but wow it also synergises perfectly w psy terrain and the most common teras cuck slither and bish. - This mon is very very similar to bax so it could just be the same problem after the ban. While its drag stab is a bit more abusable its insanely hard to rk after tera and mold breaker is a dumb abili, has some trade offs but almost the same issues that bax poses. - These two are much lower on the list but tera normal and tera ice are a bit silly to deal with cus they only have like 1 good counter each, defo not banworthy rn but if they get on a meta that gives em more opportunities hmmm.
I've made my thoughts known in the UU Discord a few times, but I'll go over them briefly here as well:
Baxcalibur:
This thing does not belong in UU. The defensive checks we have to it are not reliable, especially with the potential for Bax to Tera Fire. Bax has great bulk, an extremely dangerous STAB combination backed up by high BP STAB moves, multiple good sets, access to STAB priority in Ice Shard, and an immunity to the most common method of dealing with physical attackers in Burn. Bax has no reliable checks and is just a negative impact in the builder, and should be immediately booted out of the tier IMO.
Some calcs to demonstrate Bax's potential against its defensive checks:
Hydreigon:
Hydreigon is undeniably dangerous and ruins a lot of bulkier teams, especially with its Substitue and Taunt sets. Many people want Hydreigon banned and I can understand why. However, I think what Hydreigon brings to teams defensively gives it merit in keeping around. For one, Hydreigon's Dark typing makes it a great Gengar check, and its Dragon typing allows it to be perhaps the most splashable one. The Dragon typing and good natural bulk also allows Drei to act as a soft check to many Pokemon in a pinch. Additionally, Drei's Dark typing makes it one of the few setup Pokemon immune to Prankster Encore, giving it a valuable ability to beat Pokemon like Grafaiai and Sableye. Finally, the balance-breaking aspect of Drei I think is actually quite a valuable trait to keep in the meta, given how poor our current hazard removal options are. Without a reliable, splashable option to discourage Pokemon like Gastrodon, Quagsire, and Brambleghast from throwing down Spikes and Stealth Rock, many teams would find themselves quickly overwhelmed by hazards. Drei is not without its downsides as well. Its Speed tier means that many offensive Pokemon are capable of forcing it out revenge KOing it, and its weakness to U-Turn and Close Combat means that its opportunities to set up are limited by excellent Pokemon like Slither Wing and Lokix that threaten to OHKO it with First Impression and U-turn. Overall, while I understand the complaints against Drei, I think it brings enough value to the tier and is possible enough to handle to merit keeping around.
Gengar:
Gengar is really dangerous but man is it frail. Specs sets are very hard to switch into, but don't exactly get free opportunities to come in themselves. For me, Gengar isn't even close to banworthy - it's simply powerful, but too frail to really be overbearing. UU has a wealth of Dark-types and good Scarfers that mean fitting Gengar checks isn't hard. Yes it will probably do some major damage when it comes in, but that's OK, since you really have to work to make that happen. Other sets do exist, like Scarf and Sub variants, but by far the most popular one has been Specs, and even then, I've never felt like I couldn't deal with this thing with good play.
Pelipper / Floatzel / Rain in General:
I'm really not sure how people think these are even worth looking at for bans. Gastrodon and Quagsire are two of the most easily splashable Pokemon in the tier, and we have many excellent Dragon- and Water-types that make checking rain naturally easy. The most dangerous mon on Rain in my eyes is Kilowattrel, and we just got an excellent check to that in Tyranitar. I'm wholeheartedly against a ban here.
Baxcalibur:This thing does not belong in UU. The defensive checks we have to it are not reliable, especially with the potential for Bax to Tera Fire. Bax has great bulk, an extremely dangerous STAB combination backed up by high BP STAB moves, multiple good sets, access to STAB priority in Ice Shard, and an immunity to the most common method of dealing with physical attackers in Burn. Bax has no reliable checks and is just a negative impact in the builder, and should be immediately booted out of the tier IMO.
Some calcs to demonstrate Bax's potential against its defensive checks:
252 Atk Tera Fire Baxcalibur Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 324-384 (91.5 - 108.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Def Forretress Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fire Baxcalibur: 109-129 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- 9.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ Def Forretress Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 218-258 (58.7 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tera Fire Baxcalibur Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Orthworm: 158-188 (45.9 - 54.6%) -- 60.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Def Orthworm Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fire Baxcalibur: 112-132 (30.1 - 35.5%) -- 31.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ Def Orthworm Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 224-264 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tera Fire Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 144-171 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Tera Fire Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Tera Fire Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 288-339 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Def Slowbro Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fire Baxcalibur: 91-108 (24.5 - 29.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
252+ Def Slowbro Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 182-216 (49 - 58.2%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Slowbro Future Sight vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Baxcalibur: 145-172 (39 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Baxcalibur Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Slowbro: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Tera Fire Baxcalibur Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Fairy Slowbro: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tera Fire Baxcalibur Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 186-218 (55 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Bronzong Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 192-226 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (74 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 156-186 (42 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Def Bronzong Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fire Baxcalibur: 96-113 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Hydreigon:Hydreigon is undeniably dangerous and ruins a lot of bulkier teams, especially with its Substitue and Taunt sets. Many people want Hydreigon banned and I can understand why. However, I think what Hydreigon brings to teams defensively gives it merit in keeping around. For one, Hydreigon's Dark typing makes it a great Gengar check, and its Dragon typing allows it to be perhaps the most splashable one. The Dragon typing and good natural bulk also allows Drei to act as a soft check to many Pokemon in a pinch. Additionally, Drei's Dark typing makes it one of the few setup Pokemon immune to Prankster Encore, giving it a valuable ability to beat Pokemon like Grafaiai and Sableye. Finally, the balance-breaking aspect of Drei I think is actually quite a valuable trait to keep in the meta, given how poor our current hazard removal options are. Without a reliable, splashable option to discourage Pokemon like Gastrodon, Quagsire, and Brambleghast from throwing down Spikes and Stealth Rock, many teams would find themselves quickly overwhelmed by hazards. Drei is not without its downsides as well. Its Speed tier means that many offensive Pokemon are capable of forcing it out revenge KOing it, and its weakness to U-Turn and Close Combat means that its opportunities to set up are limited by excellent Pokemon like Slither Wing and Lokix that threaten to OHKO it with First Impression and U-turn. Overall, while I understand the complaints against Drei, I think it brings enough value to the tier and is possible enough to handle to merit keeping around.
Gengar:Gengar is really dangerous but man is it frail. Specs sets are very hard to switch into, but don't exactly get free opportunities to come in themselves. For me, Gengar isn't even close to banworthy - it's simply powerful, but too frail to really be overbearing. UU has a wealth of Dark-types and good Scarfers that mean fitting Gengar checks isn't hard. Yes it will probably do some major damage when it comes in, but that's OK, since you really have to work to make that happen. Other sets do exist, like Scarf and Sub variants, but by far the most popular one has been Specs, and even then, I've never felt like I couldn't deal with this thing with good play.
I'm really not sure how people think these are even worth looking at for bans. Gastrodon and Quagsire are two of the most easily splashable Pokemon in the tier, and we have many excellent Dragon- and Water-types that make checking rain naturally easy. The most dangerous mon on Rain in my eyes is Kilowattrel, and we just got an excellent check to that in Tyranitar. I'm wholeheartedly against a ban here.
Joining the Cool Kids Club and writing "a few words" about what I think about the hit list sounds like a good idea, I should really make a post about this. Anyway here are my unfiltered thoughts on the banlist itself and why these mons should or shouldn't be banned. Also this will be done in the same order they're presented in the original post, so just because one mon is above another doesn't mean that I think that mon is more banworthy than the other.
- Yeah this mon is completely broken beyond redemption and is a complete nightmare to play against unless you're using Crocalor + Blissey stall. The main issue with Hydreigon isn't the fact that any of it's sets are so broken that it alone deserves to be banned, the main issue is that the two best sets at the moment don't have overlapping checks and straight up don't have any counters. This in and of itself is not necessarily banworthy when attached to a fundamentally flawed pokemon, but that's not the case here since Hydreigon both sits on most of the metagame and isn't easily revenge killed because of it's average bulk and speed tier. Because of this you're pretty much risking a 50/50 every time you try to switch into Hydreigon for the first time and even after the set is revealed it's still a massive threat. This means that teams with even a single mon that Hydreigon can take advantage of need to run minimum 2 mons which can check it in some shape or form, which is just not healthy for a metagame.
- This mon is broken beyond redemption in a very different way than Hydreigon is, mainly because of how all of it's sets do the exact same thing, aka Unga Bunga beatdown. The issue with Baxcalibur is that it essentially only has 1 counter thanks to the lack of good physically defensive Dragon and Ice resists within the tier, which leads to bulkier teams essentially being built the exact same way and offensive teams facing down a mon that literally just says "if I come in and click a move you lose a mon". This coupled with the immense bulk afforded to it thanks to the 600 BST makes it borderline impossible to OHKO without the use of a strong Super Effective hit and the fact that pivoting moves are extremely common at the moment means that getting this mon in is an easy task.
So TLDR please ban it "my" stall team runs Tera Fairy Quagsire because of my lack of ability to teambuild ;-; (This is me according to a certain person).
- Literally just this
Also to the people who unironically think that you can easily revenge kill this mon:
- At first I was extremely hesitant on this pair because I never found rain very hard to deal with, even when I'm not using stall. So I asked myself "Why do I never find rain hard to deal with?" and then decided to look at my teams, only to find out that every non HO team I've ever built literally consists of minimum 1 Bulky Water and 1 Grass Type, which made me realise just how opressive rain is when teambuilding. The issue with rain isn't that there are no counters or checks, the issue is that you have to run minimum one extremely bulky Water Resist or Water Absorber on any non HO team, alongside a way to deal with Kilowattrel. Honestly during the Alpha if you'd have asked me what the main issue with Rain was I'd have answered Kilowattrel because it was literally unwallable at the time, but since Tyranitar exists now I can finally see that rain in general just restrics team building by a lot.
As you can see here I'm not straying from my standard suspect philosophy aka ban anything offensive that I don't have a personal bias toward. Ban Krookodile? Sounds good. Anyway the UU Council really hit everything I wanted banned on this list, so cudos to them.
Also one more thing I'm curious about is what would happen to Azumarill is it drops again? If Chi-Yu gets banned in OU it's gonna drop back into UU and terrorize the tier again just like it did in the alpha. I don't see what the tier could gain from suspect testing it again since it's abundantly clear that it's completely busted, so I was just wondering what the hypothetical protocol would be if Azumarill just so happened to drop back down into UU?
- Yeah this mon is completely broken beyond redemption and is a complete nightmare to play against unless you're using Crocalor + Blissey stall. The main issue with Hydreigon isn't the fact that any of it's sets are so broken that it alone deserves to be banned, the main issue is that the two best sets at the moment don't have overlapping checks and straight up don't have any counters. This in and of itself is not necessarily banworthy when attached to a fundamentally flawed pokemon, but that's not the case here since Hydreigon both sits on most of the metagame and isn't easily revenge killed because of it's average bulk and speed tier. Because of this you're pretty much risking a 50/50 every time you try to switch into Hydreigon for the first time and even after the set is revealed it's still a massive threat. This means that teams with even a single mon that Hydreigon can take advantage of need to run minimum 2 mons which can check it in some shape or form, which is just not healthy for a metagame. - This mon is broken beyond redemption in a very different way than Hydreigon is, mainly because of how all of it's sets do the exact same thing, aka Unga Bunga beatdown. The issue with Baxcalibur is that it essentially only has 1 counter thanks to the lack of good physically defensive Dragon and Ice resists within the tier, which leads to bulkier teams essentially being built the exact same way and offensive teams facing down a mon that literally just says "if I come in and click a move you lose a mon". This coupled with the immense bulk afforded to it thanks to the 600 BST makes it borderline impossible to OHKO without the use of a strong Super Effective hit and the fact that pivoting moves are extremely common at the moment means that getting this mon in is an easy task.So TLDR please ban it "my" stall team runs Tera Fairy Quagsire because of my lack of ability to teambuild ;-; (This is me according to a certain person).
- Literally just thisAlso to the people who unironically think that you can easily revenge kill this mon:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Bug Slither Wing First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 125-148 (47.8 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 251-296 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (how tf is this not even guaranteed)
+2 252+ Atk Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 235-277 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 154-182 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mind you these are some of the strongest non super effective forms of priority in the tier and Gengar still isn't 100% ohkod by any of them.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 251-296 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (how tf is this not even guaranteed)
+2 252+ Atk Baxcalibur Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 235-277 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Lokix First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 154-182 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mind you these are some of the strongest non super effective forms of priority in the tier and Gengar still isn't 100% ohkod by any of them.
- At first I was extremely hesitant on this pair because I never found rain very hard to deal with, even when I'm not using stall. So I asked myself "Why do I never find rain hard to deal with?" and then decided to look at my teams, only to find out that every non HO team I've ever built literally consists of minimum 1 Bulky Water and 1 Grass Type, which made me realise just how opressive rain is when teambuilding. The issue with rain isn't that there are no counters or checks, the issue is that you have to run minimum one extremely bulky Water Resist or Water Absorber on any non HO team, alongside a way to deal with Kilowattrel. Honestly during the Alpha if you'd have asked me what the main issue with Rain was I'd have answered Kilowattrel because it was literally unwallable at the time, but since Tyranitar exists now I can finally see that rain in general just restrics team building by a lot.As you can see here I'm not straying from my standard suspect philosophy aka ban anything offensive that I don't have a personal bias toward. Ban Krookodile? Sounds good. Anyway the UU Council really hit everything I wanted banned on this list, so cudos to them.
Also one more thing I'm curious about is what would happen to Azumarill is it drops again? If Chi-Yu gets banned in OU it's gonna drop back into UU and terrorize the tier again just like it did in the alpha. I don't see what the tier could gain from suspect testing it again since it's abundantly clear that it's completely busted, so I was just wondering what the hypothetical protocol would be if Azumarill just so happened to drop back down into UU?
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- I think this being broken is an unanimous opinion. Dragon Dance isn't even its best set (CB and SD are better), and everyone agreeing that Bax is broken based on DD, the 3rd best set, shows how broken Bax is. I know that isn't really a good point, but like, Bax just doesn't have a single good counter. CB kills everything in the tier, SD with tera ice Ice Shard can clean through teams, and kill everything that's slower with Glaive Rush + coverage. Both Dice and Boots DD with Icicle Crash are really good. Tera Dragon Glaive Rush kills everything, tera ground avoids t-wave, tera fire kills orthworm and gives it a resistance to First Impression, tera fight does the same with an additional Sucker Punch resistance, and tera fairy is able to beat Slowbro and Scarf Hydreigon, as well as being able to set up on way too many pokemon, and also resists First Impression + Sucker Punch. Quickban - This is even more broken than Baxcalibur, in my opinion. Sub + NP Hydreigon is so oppressive that you can't afford to ever give it a free turn at all. Otherwise you just lose. The problem with Sub+NP Hydreigon is also that it has different checks from other Hydreigon sets. What's really stupid about that is that more people have decided to use Specs/Scarf Hydreigon now, because most players expect Sub+NP. The amount of times Hydreigon has come in at 100% (not revealing Leftovers) because of Chilly Reception, or a slow U-Turn, and then nuked something like Tauros, or Slither Wing with a Specs Draco is just stupid. I haven't even gone into any of the Taunt sets, which are also just stupid. It deserves to get quickbanned - The most broken Gengar set, in my opinion, is Toxic Spikes Gengar, a set which hasn't been used a lot, thankfully. Gengar forces a lot of switches, and due to that it is able to easily set up Toxic Spikes, which not many teams are prepared to deal with. Hex + Toxic Spikes Gengar is something that can easily run through most teams, absolutely 6-0 stall now that Hatt is gone (which it still did with Hatt on stall, but now you don't even have to predict the Magic Bounce), as well make it extremely difficult for the opponent's team to check Gengar's teammates. Tinkaton counters Toxic Spikes Gengar, but it doesn't have recovery, and Gengar + another special attacker can easily wear down Tinkaton. Toxic Spikes is the best set, but Scarf is a very close second. Choice Scarf just fits on so many teams. It is one of the best revengekillers in the tier (fast enough to even outspeed +2 Polteageist), and tera ghost actually turns Scarf Gengar with 525 Speed into a wallbreaker. Specs is extremely difficult to switch into, and Trick makes both Scarf and Specs broken. Aside from that, Gengar can use a ton of different sets too, making it difficult to predict. It is actually crazy how many sets it has. Toxic Spikes, Scarf, Specs, Nasty Plot 3 Attacks, Sub+Nasty Plot, Sub+Disable, Disable+Protect, Will-O-Wisp+Hex, Taunt+Toxic, Sub+Pain Split, I'm sure even SubToxic could be used. Quickban - First off, Floatzel shouldn't under any circumstance be banned, or suspected. Should Floatzel get banned, we'll just have the same issue with Barraskewda. It's not what makes broken. If any rain abuser pushes rain over the edge, I'd say it would be Specs Kilowattrel, which has no safe counterplay, outside of SpDef Tyranitar and Blissey (even Blissey can lose to confusion hax, and TTar has no recovery). I've been using SpDef TTar on almost all of my teams, and haven't had many issues with rain as a result, so I was more on the side of rain not being broken. But I've been thinking about it some more recently. I agree with most people's points that rain isn't broken. There are checks for rain teams, and SpDef Tyranitar has made Specs Kilowattrel a lot easier to deal with. Rain overall is very matchup reliant in it's current state. So rain isn't broken, but my question, and what the council needs to ask itself is, is it healthy for the metagame? Sure, you have a lot of checks for rain, but is it healthy that every team needs run Slowbro/king, or Water Absorb Quag/Gastro + SpDef Tyranitar, or multiple forms of priority, sometimes even Slowbro+TTar+Priority to be safe against rain? The other question is, what action do you take against rain? Do you straight up ban Pelipper, or do you ban Damp Rock, similarly to previous gens? I do not think that rain is broken, but I do think that it is very unhealthy for the metagame. It doesn't warrant a quickban, as I think that it needs more time, but a suspect test for either Pelipper, or Damp Rock is definitely something that should happen.
Salamence @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Atk / 12 SpD / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Dragon Claw / Dual Wingbeat
- Earthquake
This is a set that I've been using to great success lately, and it will only get better once Baxcalibur and Hydreigon get banned. Salamence has a really useful defensive typing, and with enough bulk, it gets a lot of opportunities to set up. What makes this set so good is that even in games where it won't be able to sweep with Dragon Dance, it still puts in a lot of work. The issue with Dragon Dance Mence is that there are some matchups where it is just really bad, and in those games it ends up being either a sacrifice, or something that attempts to break a hole, often unsuccessfully. A bulkier DD Mence is still able to check Slither Wing, Lokix, unbanded Gallade, and Sandy Shocks (without TB Ice of course), amongst other things. The EV-Spread allows Salamence to outspeed Scarf Gengar at +2 and anything unboosted at +1, as well as live 2 Thunderbolts from Sandy Shocks, letting you not only switch into it, but also set up on it. Tera Steel is great against Ice Shard, Scarf Dragons (in cases where you only got to DD once), and it flips your weaknesses into resistances, giving it even more opportunities to set up. Also, don't expect this Mence to be weak. It actually has a higher attack than Jolly max Attack Salamence (this one hits 374 Attack, max attack Jolly has 369 Attack). This, on top of the defensive utility it provides makes this Set better than 3 Attacks DD Mence.
Another thing I want to add is that I've been using Leftovers on teams with good Hazard Removal (Tsareena, Donphan without rocks, Talonflame), with a spread of 248 HP / 104 Atk / 44 SpD / 112 Spe, letting it live 2 Hurricanes from Heavy-Duty-Boots Kilowattrel. Leftovers have been really useful when setting up, and they definitely have a place on teams where hazards are less of an issue, but Heavy-Duty-Boots is definitely the better fit for most teams.
I’m gonna say one thing, if Floatzel does go, then smash Drednaw can easily (in my opinion) be smacked onto rain teams, so it won’t get banned overall, I think suspect test is good, (me wants quickban, but i understand the hesitancy)- Status