DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

yea but one thing....
1HKO moves are banned in competative play....

Yeah, that was pretty much my point. If OHKO moves weren't banned, Pinsir might be in a higher tier. Since they are, it's in a lower tier. No big deal. Just an observation.

Obi stated that if Pokemon X is in tier Y, then all of its pre-evolutions, if any, should also end up in tier Y. That's why he said that Phione is uber.

That's an interesting position. What's the reasoning behind it? Could you link to that thread?

People play UU to get away from OU, this is true. However, there are two kinds of OU: there is the Garchomp-class that takes up the top 10 in the ladder useage on Shoddy and makes up half or more of most teams. Then there is the niche OU, the oddball that can do something good because of a perfect storm of metagame factors. If the UU players were as opposed to these pokemon being allowed in UU (provided they don't break it, of course), then would we be asking for Tenta to at least be discussed?

There aren't two kinds of OU. All of them are the same, in the sense that all of them are commonly used.

X-Act, you didn't address his point at all. That's like one person saying that there are two kinds of moves, those that do damage and those that don't. Then the counter-argument is that there's only one type of move: the type that can be used by a Pokémon.

Of course, you're right about it not mattering for the purposes of Smogon's tier system, since the rules have already been laid down. I think it's an important distinction that Kalec made; it's just that Smogon's UU tier doesn't currently care about this distinction.

 

[X-Act]

I did address his point.

OU is comprised by the Pokemon that are in the top 75% in the cumulative frequency usage.

My point was "tell me where the line separating the 'Garchomp-class' OUs from the 'oddballs that can do something good because of a perfect storm of metagame factors' OUs is".

This line is not clear-cut, so I drew it at 75%, which I proved to be at around #45 to #55 of the list. So, for me, all OUs are 'Garchomp-class', and none of them are 'oddballs that can do something good because of a perfect storm of metagame factors'. For me, these 'oddballs' are called BL.

Now, if, in the future, I see that the line should be raised, I'll do that.

 

[Lee]

Had my first UU match in god knows how long, and Marowak seemed particularly unspectacular. There aren't as many pokemon to support him down there, but there's just as many fast sweepers to thwart him.

Will do more testing once I sort out a proper team.

 

[ODDish]

I played one match with Marowak last night, but to be honest I found it so difficult switching him in, I've given up on that team ... it won, but to be honest Marowak's contribution was minimal.

 

[Syberia]

Pinsir definitely needs to be moved up to BL. It gets amazing type coverage with X-Scissor, Earthquake, Stone Edge, and Close Combat, not to mention Mold Breaker and Gallade's attack stat. It may not evolve into Heracross, but it's definitely Heracross-lite as far as I'm concerned.

 

[ODDish]

I'm going to be a away for a couple of weeks, so just in case there is any movement on the tier front, here's a quick summary of my feelings on those pokemon under consideration for moves ....

Undecided
- Marowak

Don't really care one way or the other
- Phione

Stay UU
- Walrein, Glaceon, Cacturne, Ninetales, Poliwrath, Hitmonlee, Claydol, Cloyster

Kick to BL
- Pinsir, Clefable

Move down to UU
- Steelix, Drapion, Leafeon, Jynx, Regigigas

Stay BL
-Torterra, Entei, Flygon

This concludes the vote of the Oddish jury ...

 

[Alienjesus]

I'm going to be a away for a couple of weeks, so just in case there is any movement on the tier front, here's a quick summary of my feelings on those pokemon under consideration for moves ....

Undecided
- Marowak

Don't really care one way or the other
- Phione

Stay UU
- Walrein, Glaceon, Cacturne, Ninetales, Poliwrath, Hitmonlee, Claydol, Cloyster

Kick to BL
- Pinsir, Clefable

Move down to UU
- Steelix, Drapion, Leafeon, Jynx, Regigigas

Stay BL
-Torterra, Entei, Flygon

This concludes the vote of the Oddish jury ...

cool lists. i agree with most of them. personally i would see rapidash, ninetales, hitmonlee and scyther banned, but with them staying, i definetely agree on letting poliwrath and claydol stick about.

im not sure about regigigas, but i know hes not overpowered. i just dont wanna see legends in UU much :)

 

[evolutia]

Kick to BL
- Pinsir, Clefable

Hmm, Clefable? Could you tell me more about you reasoning behind that, or anyone that thinks Clefable should be BL for some reason.

 

[Alienjesus]

the whole thing seems to be centred around magic guard + enormous movepool.

its v.unpredictable in its sets, could belly drum, mini-bliss, life orb attack, toxic orb facade abuse,cosmic power up, status, special attack, run a surprise gravity set-up or even other weathers. it cn heal 50% with softboiled or heal others 50% with wish. you name it it does it mostly.

with amgic guard taking away burn, poison, leech seed, SR, spikes, sandstorm, hail damage it also survives longer then its stats suggest, especially with healing at its disposal.

some others may show the argument better then me, but this is the gist of it.

 

[evolutia]

the whole thing seems to be centred around magic guard + enormous movepool.

its v.unpredictable in its sets, could belly drum, mini-bliss, life orb attack, toxic orb facade abuse,cosmic power up, status, special attack, run a surprise gravity set-up or even other weathers. it cn heal 50% with softboiled or heal others 50% with wish. you name it it does it mostly.

with amgic guard taking away burn, poison, leech seed, SR, spikes, sandstorm, hail damage it also survives longer then its stats suggest, especially with healing at its disposal.

some others may show the argument better then me, but this is the gist of it.

Hmm, the question to ask is... Has Clefable's movepool increased so much from ADV that the UU metagame can no longer handle it? Does Magic Guard make it to hard to take down, considering it no longer takes damage from "indirect effects"?

I'd have to see more testing personally, but as of right now I'm leaning more towards UU. I think one should be able to figure out Clefable's moveset by sending in a sturdy pokemon on it at first, then from proceed accordingly from there. It shouldn't take more than 1 or 2 turns to figure out Clefable's moveset. It's not as though it has the stats to wreck your entire team during those initial turns of figuring out it's moveset.

Though perhaps like you said, more people can talk about this matter.

 

[memorexia]

To elaborate on Shiny Oddish's post,

Has anyone else try creating gigantic subs with Drifblim and passing a possible speed boost to Marowak. This set-up is possibly the only thing that concerns me with having Marowak in UU. As the subs will give Marowak a chance to Swords Dance and sweep.

I would like to hear more of Shiny Oddish's reasoning behind moving Pinsir and Clefable to BL.

 

[Alienjesus]

i havent done that, but i passed sub and agility with rapidash.

was broken quickly, and i was outsped by an unexpected choice scarfer next turn. needs testing more though.

 

[Forsety]

Hmm, the question to ask is... Has Clefable's movepool increased so much from ADV that the UU metagame can no longer handle it? Does Magic Guard make it to hard to take down, considering it no longer takes damage from "indirect effects"?

Shiny Oddish just happens to be one of the more opinionated for Clefable to BL.

I'm definitely against Clefable's removal, not only is his usuage too low to warrant it. Clefable never had the plain power, speed or typing in the first place to be too strong. Magic Guard as well as its large movepool is useful but severely overrated.

Unlike some of the big OU's Clefable can't afford to multi-task so its pretty easy to figure out its moves. In fact most Clefable setups need at least 1-2 turns to get going and they still get outspeeded by more than half of the game.

Has anyone else try creating gigantic subs with Drifblim and passing a possible speed boost to Marowak.

In theory it works to help Marowak's HP problem but I'm not sure Marowak enjoys receiving subs from something with an Ice weakness. So possibly not the best idea...

On top of that I already said, anything short of a level 2 speed boost is worthless on Marrowak. Drifblim at best offers only level 1.

 

[Alienjesus]

In theory it works to help Marowak's HP problem but I'm not sure Marowak enjoys receiving subs from something with an Ice weakness. So possibly not the best idea...

On top of that I already said, anything short of a level 2 speed boost is worthless on Marrowak. Drifblim at best offers only level 1.

i havent done that, but i passed sub and agility with rapidash.

was broken quickly, and i was outsped by an unexpected choice scarfer next turn. needs testing more though.

yeah, so in your post you can see why i didnt use drifblim, and in my post, you can see a possible solution. they both share water weakness, but thats fairly rare.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

yeah, so in your post you can see why i didnt use drifblim, and in my post, you can see a possible solution. they both share water weakness, but thats fairly rare.

The problem I see with both Sub and Agility is that it is just asking for Shuckle or a PHazer to come in and ruin your setup. Shuckle especially is one Pokemon that Marowak does not want to switch in to without a Sub for obvious reasons, but pulling off a Sub and Agility pass is next to impossible against a good Shuckle user, or anything that can PHaze for that matter.

For this reason I prefer Dodrio for Agility passing. A set with Drill Peck/Agility/Taunt/Baton Pass gets round the problem of Encore and PHazing at the cost of Sub, which isn't really needed if you predict the right move for one of your recipients to switch in to. No speed EVs are required which means you can make Dodrio rather bulky and able to take unSTABed Ice Beams and whatnot. I used this quite a few times along with Belly Drum Poliwrath, which got me a couple of easy sweeps but had obvious problems with Electric attacks. I mention this because I really cannot think of a more perfect addition to this stategy than Marowak. It would work so much better than any other Ground or Grass type due to the fact that it has 500+ attack off the bat to sweep with, something that nothing else in UU could compare with.

This is essentially another one of my concerns regarding Marowak; it may centralize UU towards countering all sorts of speed passing strategies, as the reward for your opponent if they manage to pull it off is far too great to ignore. Still, this is going way into the realms of theorymon, and testing may well prove me wrong.

 

[Forsety]

This is essentially another one of my concerns regarding Marowak; it may centralize UU towards countering all sorts of speed passing strategies, as the reward for your opponent if they manage to pull it off is far too great to ignore. Still, this is going way into the realms of theorymon, and testing may well prove me wrong.

However in all fairness thats how BP teams work in general, they sacrifice one or two slots for a high payoff setup and Marowak falls into that criteria. One BP'er often isn't enough for the setup alone, you still need to use other slots to try lay out the road for the setup.

As for speed countering, there are reasons why people regard having at least one priority abuser and a p/hazer on your team being good team building.

 

[Alienjesus]

i must admit i have moved away from sub passing to marowak, and now run rapidash with

hypnosis
baton pass
agility
flare blitz

 

[Death Phenomeno]

i must admit i have moved away from sub passing to marowak, and now run rapidash with

hypnosis
baton pass
agility
flare blitz

Yeah, but you see, that set is illegal.

 

[ODDish]

Just a very quick post before I'm off

I'm definitely against Clefable's removal, not only is his usuage too low to warrant it.

I wouldn't say #70 (weighted stats) is low. It's the fourth most used UU pokemon in ladder matches, and sees more use than a significant number of BL stallwarts (Gardevoir, Arcanine, Sceptile, Regice, Milktank, Uxie, Hariyama, Flygon etc.)

Clefable never had the plain power, speed or typing in the first place to be too strong.

It doesn't necessarily need plain power, as one its strengths lies in its durability ... there are an incredibly large number of UU pokemon that just can't hit it hard enough to outpace its ability to recover.

It's typing affords it only one true weakness to exploit (Fighting), and Magic Guard (which is no way overrated) means you have absolutely no chance of wearing it down through indirect damage.

If you're sweepers have, for whatever reason, been eliminated then it becomes incredibly difficult to take down ... I can't count the number of times that this fat arsed blob has come out late game and turned, what looked like sure fire wins into losses, because of its ability to stall.

 

[Alienjesus]

Yeah, but you see, that set is illegal.

*checks*
You are indeed right.
*changes team*

 

[RaikouLover]

I've found crobat to be a surprisingly good pokemon. I belive at the moment he is BL, but he counters pretty much every fighting pokemon in the game very well, and with Brave Bird and Roost, he can come in and scare them off all the time. Infernape, Breloom, Machamp, Heracross, and to an extent Lucario, all fear the wrath of crobat! All these fighting pokemon seem to be problematic to many teams. I believe the bat needs some love.

 

[evolutia]

Just a very quick post before I'm off



I wouldn't say #70 (weighted stats) is low. It's the fourth most used UU pokemon in ladder matches, and sees more use than a significant number of BL stallwarts (Gardevoir, Arcanine, Sceptile, Regice, Milktank, Uxie, Hariyama, Flygon etc.)



It doesn't necessarily need plain power, as one its strengths lies in its durability ... there are an incredibly large number of UU pokemon that just can't hit it hard enough to outpace its ability to recover.



It's typing affords it only one true weakness to exploit (Fighting), and Magic Guard (which is no way overrated) means you have absolutely no chance of wearing it down through indirect damage.

If you're sweepers have, for whatever reason, been eliminated then it becomes incredibly difficult to take down ... I can't count the number of times that this fat arsed blob has come out late game and turned, what looked like sure fire wins into losses, because of its ability to stall.

There are a number of pokemon in UU that can stall a match once your sweepers are gone. The main factor in Clefable's favor is it's ability Magic Guard. It's offensive out-put is not very strong and if your sweepers are taken out and you can't take out Clefable, then it's your own fault for letting that happen.

I mean by that notion we should take out any pokemon that doesn't have a great offensive output and stalls when it comes into contact with other similar pokemon.

Choice Banders give Clefable alot of trouble if it doesn't have a reflect up, even more so if it's a fighting type pokemon. If it doesn't have a set up of it's own (CM) it can be beaten down by other pokemon taking advantage of it's lackluster offense and set up on it.

 

[ODDish]

It's offensive out-put is not very strong and if your sweepers are taken out and you can't take out Clefable, then it's your own fault for letting that happen.

You might have attained a degree of omnipotence whereby you are able to control critical hits and effortlessly predict obscure/random battle techniques ... but alas I'm only human.

I mean by that notion we should take out any pokemon that doesn't have a great offensive output and stalls when it comes into contact with other similar pokemon.

Sorry by what notion? My notion was that only having one real weakness and magic guard makes Clefable incredibly difficult to take out
... I don't quite see how that correlates with all stall based pokemon, unless of course they too have only one weakness and Magic Guard.

That's me done on this particular subject ... it's clear that evolutia thinks I'm some kind of idiot, so I'll just go back to playing with the pretty shiny pokemon ... like a good idiot.

 

[Bologo]

Clefable's offense isn't even that bad y'know. Even with just 70 base attack, it still has STAB Double-Edge in its arsenal, while taking no recoil damage. Coupled with a Life Orb (still no recoil), that's a lot of raw power right there.

Then it can also have STAB Facade, which is extremely powerful when it's a Toxic Orb Clefable (no toxic damage either). Remember, Facade is just as strong as a Draco Meteor from Altaria.

I know that those take away from Leftovers recovery, but at least Clefable still has a recovery move.

 

[evolutia]

You might have attained a degree of omnipotence whereby you are able to control critical hits and effortlessly predict obscure/random battle techniques ... but alas I'm only human.

I honestly have no idea where this attitude is coming from. I wasn't being condescending so why to I get this? Perhaps I should of been more direct. A comparison to that is Clefable is similar to a Blissey situation in OU. If you don't have a great offensive output or a recovery move in which to stall her, she's gonna pulverize every member of your team.

Sorry by what notion? My notion was that only having one real weakness and magic guard makes Clefable incredibly difficult to take out
... I don't quite see how that correlates with all stall based pokemon, unless of course they too have only one weakness and Magic Guard.

That's me done on this particular subject ... it's clear that evolutia thinks I'm some kind of idiot, so I'll just go back to playing with the pretty shiny pokemon ... like a good idiot.

It was just a comparison of two pokemon that are defensively based and hard to take out (If the counter is gone). Those with CM or other stat boosters. Really it doesn't even have to be defensively based any pokemon can be hard to deal with once the main counter for it is gone.

You can think whatever you want of me (though the example you provided isn't true) if it'll make you feel better.

Clefable's offense isn't even that bad y'know. Even with just 70 base attack, it still has STAB Double-Edge in its arsenal, while taking no recoil damage. Coupled with a Life Orb (still no recoil), that's a lot of raw power right there.

Then it can also have STAB Facade, which is extremely powerful when it's a Toxic Orb Clefable (no toxic damage either). Remember, Facade is just as strong as a Draco Meteor from Altaria.

I know that those take away from Leftovers recovery, but at least Clefable still has a recovery move.

I see, thanks for elaborating further on this.

Clefable@Toxic Orb
-Facade
-Water Pulse/HP Water
-Recovery Move
-Whatever

Something like that could be somewhat hard to deal with since the last move option is a surprise.