Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

DaddyBuzzwole said:
it's technically handleable, but the amount of work required to handle it in builder and the amount of unhealthy interactions it creates on the battlefield are both beyond what i consider reasonable for a mon. i consider gambit to still be firmly in the "unhealthy" category at minimum, although it's definitely less bullshit now than it has been before and there are plenty of other mons to consider instead of gunning for gambit right now
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imprison low kick kowtow cleave iron head smeargle gg
 
RaikouLover said:
Kingambit Terastalized into Fairy Type!
Great Tusk used Earthquake!
Kingambit lost 43% of its health!
Kingambit used Tera Blast!
Great Tusk fainted!
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8bpg2k.jpg
 
id like to share an off-meta set ive been using thats been working out quite well, and ask for people's thoughts on it.

:quaquaval:
Fruity (Quaquaval) @ Choice Band
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Close Combat
- Wave Crash
- Aqua Jet
​
this set is able to switch in and check a surprising amount of OU-viable threats. :clodsire: and :gliscor: die obviously, :darkrai: cant do anything about it if its not tera fairy, wave crash can ohko :landorus therian: even after an intimidate, has a great matchup against :samurott hisui:, outspeeds and ohkos :skeledirge: with wave crash even if its tera fairy, outpriorities and ohkos QD non-tera :volcarona: with a tera water aqua jet, among other things.

tera water is to boost the power of its two water moves, CC is nice stab coverage (though i havent found many opportunities to click it), and knock off on adamant choice band hits like a truck on most pokemon with an item, not to mention its very easy to click knock on things you threaten with your stabs, serving as huge utility (and damage, to be honest) regardless of if they switch or stay in. 252+ attack for maximum power with the band; 84 EVs on speed so it outspeeds uninvested :gliscor:, :landorus therian: and :gouging fire:, 252 EVs :magnezone:, max speed :kingambit:, and probably other things that dont matter as much; and the rest goes in HP so it can live some random hits and tank more wave crash recoil.

here are some of my calcs:
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Quaquaval Wave Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 444-524 (139.1 - 164.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Quaquaval Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Volcarona: 336-396 (89.8 - 105.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Quaquaval Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 288-342 (92.6 - 109.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Quaquaval Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 344-406 (109.2 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Quaquaval: 124-147 (35 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Quaquaval Wave Crash vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 348-410 (94.3 - 111.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 233-274 (65.8 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Quaquaval Wave Crash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Skeledirge: 408-480 (99.2 - 116.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and some replays where :quaquaval: puts in work (dont mind that i forgor to put contrary on :serperior: for a while, im silly sometimes):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2026290827 - quaquaval knocks off tusk and KOs pult
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2028675897 - quaquaval knocks off pex, chips pex
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2028683827-0rq2a1ssbxca4xia9k2mnjb3e2xawlppw - quaquaval knocks lando's scarf, sweeps tran and dengo
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2028874028 - quaquaval ohkos a setup volcarona with aqua jet
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2028877924 - quaquaval deals big damage to volcarona with knock and gets lucky with weavile's ability, allowing it to have +2 attack without being choicelocked
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2029379971 - quaquaval sweeps skeledirge and kingambit with tera water wave crash

what do you think? this set is kind of a discount :orgerpon wellspring:, and of course i dont think its that meta, but it works for the team i built it on (or at least from what i could tell at my spot in the ladder). it would be fun to see how others would adapt or build their own teams around this set.
 
I wanna add my opinion on what currently is broken in the metagame. Its no secret that rain is really, REALLY strong and I think the biggest reason is the fact that the archetype got the two most efficient mons in the current metagame in the form of archaludon and raging bolt. Rain has historically struggled against fatter archetypes, but with these two this is no longer the case since these two mons are always capable of at the very least trading if not sweeping outright with their insane coverage options.

Body press+flash cannon+electro shot+draco is a ridiculous archaludon set, and its brokenness is compounded by the fact that its extremely hard to ko this mon, and even if you can it can tera and easily kill what might be one of your only mons that can actually damage it. Probably the only reliable way to kill it is knock + specs kyurem, but even that usually means sacking your knocker, and the only way to wall it is to use clod.

Raging bolt with CM + weather ball + electric move + dpulse is similarly really damn strong, especially with tera and booster. Once again, the pokemon is damn near impossible to ohko especially if it teras and gets a cm on the switch. Its coverage is truly insane, being able to blow up "counters" like ting lu, and it can pack priority to boot.

Due to their speed tier, its not THAT likely that they will downright sweep a team, but as I said earlier they are the most efficient options in the metagame: They never feel bad to have on rain, regardless of the matchup due to their ungodly bulk + coverage + strong attacking options. And for rain which has a multitude of sweeping options in the back like kingambit or skewda or gren, sometimes all they need is to trade efficiently and leave holes in opposing teams that allows the other options that rain has always relied on to sweep.

I think the meta would be better off if one of these were banned to hit rain even if it comes at the cost of what these mons can provide off rain (im sick of playing vs rain every other game on the ladder).
 
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heileone said:
I wanna add my opinion on what currently is broken in the metagame. Its no secret that rain is really, REALLY strong and I think the biggest reason is the fact that the archetype got the two most efficient mons in the current metagame in the form of archaludon and raging bolt. Rain has historically struggled against fatter archetypes, but with these two this is no longer the case since these two mons are always capable of at the very least trading if not sweeping outright with their insane coverage options.

Body press+flash cannon+electro shot+draco is a ridiculous archaludon set, and its brokenness is compounded by the fact that its extremely hard to ko this on, and even if you can it can tera and easily kill what might be one of your only mons that can actually damage it. Probably the only reliable way to kill it is knock + specs kyurem, but even that usually means sacking your knocker, and the only way to wall it is to use clod.

Raging bolt with CM + weather ball + electric move + dpulse is similarly really fking strong, especially with tera and booster. Once again, the pokemon is damn near impossible to ohko especially if it teras and gets a cm on the switch. Its coverage is truly insane, being able to blow up "counters" like ting lu, and it can pack priority to boot.

Due to their speed tier, its not THAT likely that they will downright sweep a team, but as I said earlier they are the most efficient options in the metagame: They never feel bad to have on rain, regardless of the matchup due to their ungodly bulk + coverage + strong attacking options. And for rain which has a multitude of sweeping options in the back like kingambit or skewda or gren, sometimes all they need is to trade efficiently and leave holes in opposing teams that allows the other options that rain has always relied on to sweep.

I think the meta would be better off if one of these were banned to hit rain even if it comes at the cost of what these mons can provide off rain (im sick of playing vs rain every other game on the ladder).
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I've been playing rain a decent amount, and volcanion can stuff it quite a lot, so that means I'm better into mirror rain matchups. I personally think that archaludon is fine, just a top tier mon, as it has an extremely exploitable special defense stat, and while it does have stamina, if it doesn't get a boost it is extremely vulnerable to tusk and other fighting/ground moves. Raging bolt on the other hand, I think is bs. Sure, thunderclap is useless against ground types, but bolt has enough bulk to like an e-quake and retaliate with draco meteor/dragon pulse to obliterate any ground not named clod, ting lu or excadrill. Even then, ting and exca can be overwhelmed by repeated dragon moves. I think it's just gambit 2.0, and it would be better if it wasn't in the tier.
 
DreamScape said:
How have people been dealing with Kyurem? It feels just like an unfair guessing game right now. My strategy typically is to scout with Glowking and then switch to a resist/immunity once I know the move but I end up getting chipped down or totally destroyed if it’s the sub-dd set. This is prob the only mon I’d want banned right now.
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While Kyurem I believe is banworthy, I've found that tera flying heatran with steel beam obliterates it. Steel types are absolutely a great check to kyurem, but you have to play around earth power. Something like air balloon ghold, gambit or corv can do well, but yeah, it is a problem.
 
Heatranator said:
While Kyurem I believe is banworthy, I've found that tera flying heatran with steel beam obliterates it. Steel types are absolutely a great check to kyurem, but you have to play around earth power. Something like air balloon ghold, gambit or corv can do well, but yeah, it is a problem.
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Yeah I’ve been having issues with Earth Power for heatran and end up having to run a secondary special wall. But I agree it’s a good answer for it.
 
Kyurem is awkward with positioning, and it’s very positioning reliant to make progress. HDB is amazing on it, but it doesn’t really “break” as efficiently as the other sets. It’s more of a disruption set that can shuffle through balanced or offense teams if its key checks are weakened.

so outside of the shuffler HDB set…

It’s extremely strong, except you can easily punish it or force it into taking hazards 2+ times.

once it’s taken hazards it’s manageable. It’s mostly scary when healthy due to it being able to trade against a lot of pokemon when it’s over 75%.

that’s why you see a lot of lead/early game Kyurem, these are almost exclusively specs sets that the opponent is trying to position favorably.

but you have all sorts of counterplay. Of course the classic regenerator + resists has been around in every meta, I’ve also seen lots of SpDef clef + ice resist. Offensively you have Volcarona, Weavile, Keldeo, cinderace, gambit, balloon + steel and various Tera types. Steel and fairy are already popular Tera types to deny and return a KO. The 100+ speedsters also commonly have SE moves if they can get positioned in on meteors/earth powers.

worried about those ~30% of sets that are “surprise” gotcha sets?

if you pack a backup, example an Archie boy for when it uses DD as your Volcarona switches in, then you force it into tera-to-bypass-the-check situations, like needing to predict the switch with a second DD and then use Terablast ground to break the Archie, rather than scale shot/icicle spear.
 
I can't wait for subroost kyurem with leppa berry to return and make you all wish for death. It'll happen I'm putting it on my 2024 bingo card
 
Ctann said:
Kyurem is awkward with positioning, and it’s very positioning reliant to make progress. HDB is amazing on it, but it doesn’t really “break” as efficiently as the other sets. It’s more of a disruption set that can shuffle through balanced or offense teams if its key checks are weakened.

so outside of the shuffler HDB set…

It’s extremely strong, except you can easily punish it or force it into taking hazards 2+ times.

once it’s taken hazards it’s manageable. It’s mostly scary when healthy due to it being able to trade against a lot of pokemon when it’s over 75%.

that’s why you see a lot of lead Kyurem.

but you have all sorts of counterplay. Of course the classic regenerator + resists has been around in every meta, I’ve also seen lots of SpDef clef + ice resist. Offensively you have Volcarona, Weavile, Keldeo, cinderace, gambit, balloon + steel and various Tera types. The 100+ speedsters also commonly have SE moves if they can get positioned in on meteors/earth powers.

worried about those ~30% of sets that are “surprise” gotcha sets?

if you pack a backup, example an Archie boy for when it uses DD as your Volcarona switches in, then you force it into tera-to-bypass-the-check situations, like needing to predict the switch with a second DD and then use Terablast ground to break the Archie, rather than scale shot/icicle spear.
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I agree with all of this I theory but Specs ice beam just rips through everything that’s not a defensive resist. Hazards/priority/praying not to get frozen is really the way I’ve found to beat it.
 
BobbyHill said:
I agree with all of this I theory but Specs ice beam just rips through everything that’s not a defensive resist. Hazards/priority/praying not to get frozen is really the way I’ve found to beat it.
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Plan for worst case scenario before every match and have a lead/switchin combo for the specs set (example lead cinderace). Specs Set is 10/10 threat level in first 5 turns. After that it’s got significant diminishing returns.

You also know if it comes out early and depending on partners, if it has a higher probability of being the “deadly” specs set.

i think Kyurem is scarier than usual due to the amount of top threats that hate its stabs!
 
Honestly when the VR drops I would be surprised to see Gouging Fire outside of the S/S- ranks
It feels really splashable and can fit on many offenses and balance teams alike due to it being able to be defensive or offensive and excel at both, even if it cannot do both at once. Easily my favorite of the new mons to use for how rewarding it is when it puts in work or you successfully pull off a sweep. It's for sure a top 5 threat in the meta, up there with Deo-S, as while it may not necessarily be broken in my opinion even if it puts out funny damage numbers on sun, every team needs to be prepared for Gouging Fire and both its offensive and defensive sets as both are very potent and able to shut down and threaten a lot of mons.
 
BolTingBlazie said:
Honestly when the VR drops I would be surprised to see Gouging Fire outside of the S/S- ranks
It feels really splashable and can fit on many offenses and balance teams alike due to it being able to be defensive or offensive and excel at both, even if it cannot do both at once. Easily my favorite of the new mons to use for how rewarding it is when it puts in work or you successfully pull off a sweep. It's for sure a top 5 threat in the meta, up there with Deo-S, as while it may not necessarily be broken in my opinion even if it puts out funny damage numbers on sun, every team needs to be prepared for Gouging Fire and both its offensive and defensive sets as both are very potent and able to shut down and threaten a lot of mons.
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It's funny that Gouging Fire is so splashable when it has the same speed stat as Landorus-T. It really makes you think.
 
Cuddly said:
It's funny that Gouging Fire is so splashable when it has the same speed stat as Landorus-T. It really makes you think.
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Having similar bulk post-Intimidate also does it some favors there

-1 252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 138-163 (43.2 - 51%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gouging Fire: 160-189 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO
 
pika pal said:
Having similar bulk post-Intimidate also does it some favors there

-1 252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 138-163 (43.2 - 51%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gouging Fire: 160-189 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO
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And you know what else? Similar damage too
252+ Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 338-398 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 332-392 (83 - 98%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
How similar these 2 are in terms of stats is pretty insane.
 
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