USUM UU Viability Ranking Thread V3

[Hilomilo]

Rejected Nominations

Infernape: Stay A-
The amount of support Infernape often requires, despite its great potency, is enough for it to stay below A for now. It often requires Pursuit support to put its dominant setup sets to use, while it is also burdened by its shaky status as a check to Scizor and Bisharp due to its poor bulk. It’s an amazing offensive threat, though it’s held back just enough to refrain from rising just yet.

Moltres: Stay A-
Moltres is a fantastic wallbreaker in the metagame, though it is still largely held back by its nasty Stealth Rock weakness. This often means that in order to both wallbreak and check the threats it wants to, it will require substantial support, which in addition to the prevalence of Terrakion, Primarina, and Rotom-H, justifies staying where it’s ranked for now.

Doublade: Stay B+
Doublade at times catches itself in a struggle to reliably accomplish everything it’d like to in a match, due to both its reliance on setup for an offensive presence and its lack of recovery, which damages its longevity. It also lacks appreciation for the healthy amount of defensive threats fully capable of pivoting into it, including Gligar and Mega Steelix, which despite its great typing and splashability, holds it back enough to keep it below the A ranks.

Discussion Points

Togekiss A+ -> A: Togekiss is still great in its offensive and defensive roles. However, as a Fairy-type it can be held back in a few respects. Its Stealth Rock weakness and slight reliance on setup can complicate the ability to reliably pressure Hydreigon and Mega Sharpedo, while it can also end up providing free turns to Terrakion and the trending Rotom-H. This along with the decreased urgence of its defensive attributes makes a potential drop worth discussing.

Kyurem A- -> B+: Lately Kyurem has struggled a bit due to its poor defensive utility in comparison to the tier’s other Dragon-types, which limits its splashability. Its stallbreaking sets have also recently been faced with decent competition from Taunt Hydreigon, which can more comfortably check a wider variety of threats. Its poor defensive utility in a tier that values a trait in its Dragon-types is worth bringing a drop into question.

Heracross B -> B-: Heracross is in a tough spot as a Fighting-type incapable of providing the defensive utility the metagame usually values in them. In addition to this its Speed tier isn’t nearly convenient as that of Terrakion’s, which both gives it stiff competition while restricting its matchups to really only being great against less common defensive builds. Whether its breaking prowess is still worthy of keeping it in B is a bit of a tricky subject.

Alolan Muk B -> B-: Alolan Muk’s recent downfall has been its limited splashability on account of its vulnerability to a lot of tier staples, like Terrakion, Kommo-o, Krookodile, Cobalion, and more, as well as the competition it faces from Bisharp as a Pursuit trapper. However, its saving grace, and a fair argument to stay in B, is its ability to take on a lot of trending threats, such as Electrium Z Latias, Gengar, and Psychium Z Celebi, more reliably than any other Dark-type in the tier.

Mega Sceptile B- -> B: Mega Sceptile’s Speed tier, typing, and the power of its Leaf Storm can make it a valuable tool against offense, capable of working around traditional Grass-type checks in Moltres and Rotom-H quite easily. However, it can struggle to work around various Steel-types due to its four-moveslot syndrome and its coverage options’ occasionally middling damage output, while it is also quite vulnerable to the tier’s several viable Fairy-types.

Zygarde-10% C+ -> B-: Zygarde’s been receiving decent usage as a great cleaner on the tier’s trending Spikes builds. The combined strength of its typing, Speed tier, and Thousand Arrows has received great recent exposure. This alongside its decent tournament usage brings another rise into the B ranks into question.

Cofagrigus C+ -> C/C-: Cofagrigus suffers from extremely low usage, which hurts its ability to maintain relevance or proven worth in the metagame. Its reliance on two turns for setup damages its longevity, while other worthwhile Ghost-types and OTR cleaners, like Gengar and Reuniclus respectively, have received a lot more exploration.

Thanks for your guys's input these last few pages, and let's make sure we get back on track with some solid discussion! Be kind and enjoy! :)

 

[Moutemoute]

From A+ to A : Agree

While Togekiss is still a fantastic Stallbreaker and a Pokemon which can handle several threats such as Mixed Kommo-o, it also doesn't appreciate the fact that Rotom-Heat is more than ever a dominant Pokemon in Underused (it's part of the 10 most used Pokemon last month). As Hilomilo said,
Togekiss also struggle to handle some Pokemon because of its Stealth Rock weakness. It also face competition from Altaria-Mega which is in my opinion better than Togekiss in the current metagame thanks to its better Bulk and greatest viability. Overall Togekiss struggles when it comes to choose between it and Altaria-Mega as the Fairy type on your team. I feel like Togekiss is between two stools atm and it doesn't deserve as much as before its spot in A+.

From B to B- : Agree

Heracross struggles in the current metagame and it's hard to justify to use it over another Fighting type such as Terrakion, Infernape, Lucario or Kommo-o which all provide more utility than Heracross. As a physical Wallbreaker, Terrakion is a better pick because of it's better speed which allows it to pressure Rotom-Heat. Heracross struggles vs Rotom-Heat since it outspeeds it. On the other hand Nasty Plot Infernape/Lucario brings a priority to their team while still being able to pressure Bulky archetypes thanks to their sheer force and access to Z-Moves. Last but not least, Kommo-o is a nice breaker and a Pokemon which can fulfil a plethora of roles thanks to its access to Stealth Rocks, Taunt, great Mixed STABs and Dragon Dance/Swords Dance.

From C+ to B- : Strongly agree

Zydog is so underrated in the current metagame. Being able to pressure teams which rely on Levitate's users as their Ground resistance is quite amazing. Rotom-Heat is more used than ever and Zydog take full advantage of it. Zydog is also able to pressure non-Choice Scarf Latias/Hydreigon/Terrakion but also Cobalion. Zygarde 10% also fit well on Spikes HO and loves the fact that Spikes are able to weaken some Bulky Pokemon which allows Zydog to ensure some OHKO or 2HKO. Even if it struggles to handle priority, it still a good Pokemon atm and it's better than all the other C+ Pokemon.

 

[Twilight]

Just wanted to post my thoughts on Mega Sceptile from the discussion points. I already brought up Cofag and Heracross dropping in my last post so you can read that there. And I have already stated my agreement with Zydog rising. I don't use Togekiss or Muk enough to give a good enough opinion on their current state.

​

Initially I was supporting Mega-Sceptile not being nommed down to C+, but I actually agree with it rising and I'm speaking as someone who has been testing it out a lot recently. Mega Sceptile is super underrated right now and is being highly slept on. Most people building teams don't even take this Mon into account anymore which just gives it even more of an edge to put work in. Alolan-Muk is pretty non-existent in the current meta and while Mega-Altaria is seeing a ton of usage it still gives Sceptile some breathing room. Not to mention you must get the evolution off to wall it without risking taking a Dragon Pulse to the face. Leaf Storm is a phenomenal move with its high SpA stat especially against offense as it nukes anything that doesn't resist it well. It has an amazing speed tier letting it effectively check the likes of Mega-Mane and even Zeraora, while speed tie with Mega-Bee. Rotom-H doesn't even come in on this thing because it can't take two D-Pulses without dropping. Being faster than every electric type in the tier in conjunction with Lightning Rod is amazing for making these Pokemon think twice about pressing an electric move, as giving this thing a +1 boost is asking to let something drop or take a huge hit.

+1 252 SpA Sceptile-Mega Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aggron-Mega: 144-169 (41.8 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

While this is the case it still must be wary of HP Ice from Manec, CC from Zera and Overheat from Rotom-H. The AoA using HP Fire has a lot of issues breaking bulky steel types, but Pokemon like Mega-Aggron which have no self-recovery don't appreciate taking 25% chip each time. It also has a bit of 4MSS with wanting several moves on its AoA set to hit Steel or Fairy types, but with the team support it could potentially forgo something for them. But, as Pif mentioned Earthquake is a very viable move over Giga Drain / Energy Ball which I have used before and it is nice for the 2OHKO on Klefki and the rare Muk etc.

4 Atk Sceptile-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Klefki: 170-202 (53.6 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Sceptile-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk-Alola: 200-236 (48.3 - 57%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO

That is about it on my thoughts on Mega-Sceptile, it's a really good Pokemon that deserves some more spotlight. I have listed some negatives of the Mon which is why I don't think it should be ranked that high (It could potentially be B+ worthy), but the point I want to make is it defo doesn't belong in B-. Thanks for reading ^_^

 

[War Incarnate]

I like the state of the VR here, Hilomilo! As usual though, I want to talk about some of the discussion points here.
So you ready?

Let's do this!

to A: Agree, maybe even drop this stupid shitball to A- or something.
While I do love this pokemon (I even have an OU team built around it) as it can deal with mixed Kommo-o, there are WAY too many flaws that undermine it because of the recent meta trends. Rotom-H becoming more common than EVER did not do it any favors. In fact, it did more harm than good. Despite being quite slow, Rotom-H can cripple with Will-O-Wisp (Assuming Togekiss isn't carrying Heal Bell), pivot out with Volt Switch, or nuke Togekiss with Overheat, which can deal a shit ton of neutral damage. It also can't handle some of the threats it's supposed to due to that nasty weakness to Stealth Rock, though sets with Roost don't have to worry as much. As a fairy-type, it faces tight competition from Mega Altaria, because of its great mixed offenses meaning that it doesn't have to get walled by Blissey 24/7 and its mixed bulk as well as its increased viability.

to B-: Strongly Agree
It's breaking prowess isn't enough to save it from facing large amounts of competition from Terrakion, Kommo-o, Infernape, or Lucario. As a physical wallbreaker, Terrakion should be your go-to instead of Heracross due to its higher speed and ability to pressure Rotom-H. Nasty Plot Infernape/Lucario should be your alternate go-to for your fighting types if you don't like Terrakion's bad defensive typing. They provide priority and can pressure bulky archetypes thanks to their higher raw power and Z-Moves. Kommo-o should also be your go-to fighting type as it can fulfill a number of roles with access to Stealth Rock to hurt Togekiss and Moltres, Taunt to completely stop Blissey, great mixed STABs, and access to Dragon Dance/Swords Dance.

to B-: 50/50
Being able to handle Electrium-Z Latias, Gengar, and Psychium-Z Celebi better than say, Bisharp is a big boon for it due to its high special bulk. While Bisharp does its job better as a Pursuit trapper due to being more splashable, Alolan Muk doesn't have a quad weakness to an extremely common type in Fighting. However, its low speed and really only decent physical defense mean that it's not taking any physical hits well, and it usually has to move last before acting. It faces competition as a pursuit trapper from the likes of Mega Aerodactyl, Krookodile, and Scizor due to their better physical bulk and speed as well as reliable recovery. Nontheless, it is a good pursuit trapper, but it has some gaping flaws, of course. However, while I want to say that it should stay B rank, these flaws really cut into its viability, but it can still be a good pursuit trapper. At this point though, I'm not even sure if I should say Yes or No.

to B: Disagree
No, seriously, even with these advantages, it is plagued with a ton of flaws that most of the resident grass-types and dragon-types don't have. Its only decent bulk means that you can easily overwhelm it, and with how common Mega Aerodactyl running Wing Attack are, this doesn't do it any favors. In fact, it does quite the opposite. Alolan Muk is still seeing some usage and Mega Altaria is extremely common for a good reason. Leaf Storm does a lot of damage, but having to switch out because of the special attack drops is really not that good. Focus Blast has shaky accuracy, which means that Mega Aggron can leave wound-free if it misses and proceed to rip it apart with a neutral Fire Punch or a quad effective Ice Punch. Even if Focus Blast hits, Mega Aggron won't take too much due to Filter. There are also a lot of Choice Scarf and strong priority users and pursuit trappers that can exploit Mega Sceptile's frailty quite easily. It finds itself hopelessly walled by the likes of Togekiss, Mega Altaria, and Klefki, though Klefki needs to watch out for Earthquake. It suffers from 4MSS, meaning that it can't viably run Earthquake without giving up its coverage.

to B-: YES
Being able to pressure teams that rely on the resident Levitate users in the tier is nothing to be scoffed at. Rotom-H being so common allows it to obliterate the floating microwave oven with Thousand Arrows or some of its Ground-Type STAB. It's able to pressure non-Choice Scarf Latias, Hydreigon, and Terrakion, but it can also check Cobalion as well (Assuming it's not running Shuca Berry). ZyDog fits well on Spikes HO as Spikes allows it to weaken some bulky pokemon which ZyDog normally can't break and it can nab some OHKOs or 2HKOs while it's at it. This is an extremely underrated pokemon that I think should definitely rise.
Noms that I think are important (But have nothing to say about)

to B+: Disagree, should stay in A- or possibly rise.

to C/C-: Roses are red, for the fact we all know, Cofagrigus is shit, and so is Darmanitan. So yeah, UR these dogshit ASAP.
Whew, you feeling tired already?
Now time for some noms of my own:

to UR:
If anything, Registeel is extremely useless now. Outside of being a mixed tank, a really bad offensive typing combined with weaknesses to common types such as Fire, Fighting, and Ground means that this steel-type fails to find a way onto even the simplest teams. Being extremely passive and reliant on Seismic Toss for damage really doesn't help considering how common Gengar is nowadays. As a steel-type, it's hopelessly outclassed by the likes of Scizor, Cobalion, Bisharp, Mega Aggron, Mega Steelix, Doublade, Stakataka, Bronzong, Klefki, Magneton, and the niche Metagross, all of which have more offensive presence, are faster, and don't rely on passive forms of damage. Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix in particular outclass Registeel on stall because of their higher offensive presence, better abilities, or better typings. The influx of powerful fighting-types hasn't helped it at all. In fact, it did quite the opposite. The influx of fighting-types in the meta has really drained Registeel of its viability, despite allowing stall teams to account for Mega Altaria and Mega Slowbro, both of which normally break stall teams. However it's too passive and slow to really be good on stall teams, but while Mega Aggron speed ties with Registeel, a more useful ability in Filter makes this harder to break apart and Mega Steelix, despite being really slow, has a better offensive typing.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Only looking at the reasoning reproduced below, use your metagame knowledge to guess Shaymin's rank:

"Although Shaymin runs into a lot of shortcomings as a sweeper, its Z-Celebrate set has been proven worthy of building around due to its potency. Shaymin’s combination of great bulk, adequate coverage, and an ability to take advantage of the tier’s several defensive Ground- and Water-types allows it to hold its own as an Omni-booster that can take on a large portion of the metagame. The support it requires can often be strenuous and team specific, though once acquired it truly is a force to be reckoned with and a hard Pokemon to reliably revenge kill."

Omnibooster nominations

What did you guess? I was surprised after reading this that Shaymin is only in C- rank because:

• The "lots of shortcomings" actually only mentioned a single one, necessary team support, which wasn't elaborated
• Meanwhile, the benefits were very specific and numerous - great bulk, adequate coverage, favorable matchups, and most importantly it "can take on a large portion of the metagame"
• C- is the lowest viable rank but this description sounds on balance positive or even very positive

Therefore I make these suggestions

Porygon2 UR --> B

Shaymin C- --> B

These are big raises I acknowledge that, people have well placed reservations on big changes because they think it's a chaotic/knee jerk reaction, it might confuse new players, or even it might imply there was a mistake in the thread before.

Having faith in the player base and with no such ego, I suggest moving these two Pokemon up for their omniboosting sets. I would add Meloetta too but the ladder has just begun to discover a Relic Song omniboosting set which I think has great value and needs more examination to have a fair ranking discussion.

I acknowledge the Shaymin C- reasoning is a short summary with space constraints and further acknowledge the writer cannot be expected to specialize in every single Pokemon discussed. Given these constraints, it is still surprising that Shaymin is at the lowest viable rank despite what it offers. It offers the ability to sweep most teams reliably as it has great speed and bulk and above average power after a boost. The real flaw Shaymin has is its reliance on Z move, which makes it one time use and increases the opportunity cost, plus it makes it harder to switch in on Pokemon like Suicune. All Pokemon have flaws though and being able to take such massive advantage of typical revenge killers like Krookodile and Scizor (HP Fire) while having astounding bulk for a sweeper (and significantly above average bulk on both sides for even a wall), the stats and matchups are just too good for Shaymin to be in the lowest rank.

Meanwhile, Porygon2 isn't ranked despite being able to sweep teams with the Z Conversion Bolt Beam set.

For example: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-836037559

Here, Team A (Paycard) is running a reasonable team. You might say it's not what you would use or slightly below average (I disagree with that assessment), but for UU standards it is definitely reasonable. It's arguably an easy test for Porygon2 because it has a good match up for the team but 1) that just means Porygon2 is good against significant portions of the metagame, a point in Porygon2's favor, and 2) it completely annihilates Team A

Additionally https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-836170937

Zredqueen (Team B) probably could have beat pokemonisfun (Team B) if they attacked on turn 25, but this set has the element of surprise which probably slightly confused Team B or made them confident that Terrakion would win the game.

I understand Porygon2 is not perfect https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-836137292

Here, pokemonisfun (Team A) overestimates his chances on turn 8, thinking Porygon2 could survive a +2 Sucker Punch from Bisharp after hazards and the omniboost, which just doesn't work - although even that wasn't a guaranteed roll and Team B missed the opportunity to predict and use Recover. Still, Porygon2 is not nearly as bulky as users might be accustomed too. In fact, that's the main problem - average bulk and only one resistance/immunity prior to using Z Conversion.

Porygon2 has some other problems like Blissey, Swampert/Quagsire, and again the one time omniboost opportunity cost. Still, the great typing, coverage and power (if you get the right Download boost) after omniboost make it an exceptional sweeper. The ability to abuse Scizor should not go unmentioned.

 

[Estarossa]

to A: Agree, maybe even drop this stupid shitball to A- or something.
Rotom-H becoming more common than EVER did not do it any favors. In fact, it did more harm than good. Despite being quite slow, Rotom-H can cripple with Will-O-Wisp (Assuming Togekiss isn't carrying Heal Bell), pivot out with Volt Switch, or nuke Togekiss with Overheat, which can deal a shit ton of neutral damage.

Ignoring everything else about post since I don't have any great feelings about the rest, I have to heavily disagree with this part though.

If it attempts toxic'ing it'll just let togekiss nasty plot up and heal bell it off, and without reliable recovery you can't tank many +2 air slashes. Volt Switch also only does 38-45% damage to nasty plot kiss, and due to forcing you out offers more free turns to the togekiss unless you have a secondary counter in back.

Being faster than togekiss also offers problems in this regard as whatever you volt switch into is going to need to be able to take those hits before it even gets a chance to move itself / switch again.

In reality this all means that unless you have a second togekiss counter to pair with the rotom, togekiss will win, and therefore it's the other counter that's really causing the problems to togekiss not the rotom. All rotom can ever hope to do is slow it down by making it need to use some heal bells / roosts, but in turn lets it get up some nasty plots while doing so.

 

[pkfire.exe]

Togekiss A+ -> A: drop
still a really good fairy type and stallbreaker, however its stealth rock weakness is a huge bane. this weakness can leave it in awkward situations where it won't always reliably beat a dragon, since many have coverages, like pjab, kommo's flash cannon, etc
Kyurem A- -> B+:drop
kyurem doesn't have a place in the meta anymore. stallbreaking sets are outclassed by hydreigon and now it's just resorting to pp stall, which isn't even that good in a meta filled with numerous fighting types.
Heracross B -> B-:drop
it's facing too much competition for it to handle, since there's just a plethora of other fighting types to use that will just do its' job better. guts isn't a good stallbreaking set anymore either
Alolan Muk B -> B-:drop
a-muk's story is depressing. what once was an amazing special tank that ate up every special attacker in the tier to just a mediocre gluemon at best is sad. anyways, it can't even trap as good as it once did. gengar sets up sub, starmie fishes for scald burns, latias has calm mind and overwhelms it.
Mega Sceptile B- -> B: rise
okay, lets bring some positivity to the table. mega sceptile is SUPER slept on in the meta. it offensively checks prim, kommo, terrakion, hydreigon, and latias (many more, too!). you may think malt being a hard wall justifies it to stay, but imo, its pros outweigh its cons.

 

[dingbat]

Longer post than I normally would like to write, but fuck it

I don't particularly care whether ice drago drops to B+ or stays A-, but last time I checked, subroost was still obliterating the ever living fuck out of the common bulky offense builds. Yes, Kyurem is and will always be a difficult 'mon to work with, but let's not sell it too short on how effective it still is in this meta.

I think we can all agree at this point that 1k arrows is a broken fucking move which, along with the current meta trends, carves it a more significant niche right now than C+ generally represents. At the same time though, its low-ish base 100 attack can be annoying at times because sometimes it'll fail to score crucial kos/2hkos (sometimes even with the hazard support), and having to rely on outrage to secure those 2hkos can backfire at times. That being said, I'm in love with this 'mon on hyper offense and I say move this to B-, but no higher for now.

Kinda ironic that coffin has been declining in potency along with alomuk, but sadly this is the case. Most other trends that have happened within the last few meta shifts have effectively reduced the frequency of favorable matchups that coffin can take advantage of, including the dominance (once again) of Hydreigon and the rise of Blissey outside of stall. While Coffin is still very much capable of living a single attack and setting tr, more often than not it's not going to struggle mightily to get the crucial np boosts it needs to deal significant damage to most of this meta. Drop this to C-.

If anything, Registeel is extremely useless now. Outside of being a mixed tank, a really bad offensive typing combined with weaknesses to common types such as Fire, Fighting, and Ground means that this steel-type fails to find a way onto even the simplest teams. Being extremely passive and reliant on Seismic Toss for damage really doesn't help considering how common Gengar is nowadays. As a steel-type, it's hopelessly outclassed by the likes of Scizor, Cobalion, Bisharp, Mega Aggron, Mega Steelix, Doublade, Stakataka, Bronzong, Klefki, Magneton, and the niche Metagross, all of which have more offensive presence, are faster, and don't rely on passive forms of damage.

I think you missed the point on why this was ranked in the first place, which is the niche it provides to stall teams. Most of the 'mons you listed are generally never seen on stall, and out of the ones that are (Mega Aggron/Lix/Doublade), only the former two are good, direct comparisons to Registeel as, to provide a couple examples, they are all SR setters and they all are generally solid hard switch-ins to Latias. While you're right in saying it's very passive, that's a huge reason why Registeel is only really usable on stall in the first place and also why it's sitting way lower than the two. Perhaps the increase in Fighting spam since its original ranking could be a better argument to why Registeel has lost any semblance of usefulness here, but when taking into account the fact that running Registeel allows stall teams to opt for Mega Altaria/Mega Slowbro which both happen to check most of those fighters, I'm not quite certain that is the case. Keep this in C- for now

 

[Moutemoute]

While I agree with the reasoning of pokeisfun, I do believe that B rank is way too high for both Shaymin and Porygon2.

First of all, I think you overestimate the potential of Shaymin. Since I tried it for Research Week I can definitively say that Shaymin has more flaws that you said. Its biggest issue in my opinion is that it has a pretty huge 4 MSS. Since Shaymin needs Celebrate + Seed Flare, it only has 2 options left to cover has much threats as possible. Most of the time, you will run Hidden Power [Fire] + Dazzling Gleam but with this coverage, Shaymin struggles vs a lot of Pokemon which means it needs a pretty huge support to be as much effective as possible. Common staples such as Amoonguss, Empoleon, Togekiss, Moltres or even Rotom-Heat can really bother Shaymin since they can handle all its attacks. While Amoonguss can bother Shaymin with Sludge Bomb or Clear Smog, Empoleon can just Phaze it with Roar or bother it with Protect + Toxic. On the other hand, Togekiss can setup on Shaymin while Moltres and Rotom-Heat can weaken it thanks to their STABs. Also, even after an omniboost, Shaymin definitively lacks of sheer power which means as I said before that it needs a real support to be effective. Shaymin is only viable with its Z-Celebrate and it faces competition from Celebi which is most of the time better thanks to Nasty Plot. With such a niche role, I don't think Shaymin deserves to be B rank. However I do agree that a small rise could be legit.

On the other hand, while I never really try seriously Porygon2, I had the opportunity to face it and I think it faces the same problem than Shaymin but in a more important way. Without Eviolite, it really need to find a good opportunity to setup and need even more support than Shaymin to be effective. While I think it can be ranked, I do not believe that it can go higher than something around C rank.

Last but not least, I think Meloetta is also quite nice with its omniboost set but like Shaymin it has some flaws. The worst in my opinion is its speed tier paired with its Psychic type which means it's quite weak to Choice Scarf Krookodile or Choice Scarf Hydreigon. pokeisfun mentionned its set with Z-Celebrate + Relic Song. I tried this set (maybe I'm the one which tried it first idk tbh) and while it has several advantages like its amazing speed tier after a boost in Speed and the fact that it hits quite hard, it also has an issue of moveset because it can run only 2 offensive attacks which means it need to opt for something between Return/Frustration, Close Combat, Facade and Knock Off. Without Knock Off you can't hit Ghost types while without Facade Meloetta-Pirouette is quite weak to Status (especially the burn). This set also need 2 turns to be effective (Z-Celebrate + Relic Song) which is kinda annoying and it needs some real support to be good (like Screens or Aurora Veil support).

 

[Umirozen]

Togekiss ,with its plethora of sets give him some utility and unpredictability for the team. Its stallbreaking capability is still one of the best in the meta. It can provide offensive and defensive utilities with Defog, T-Wave, Heal bell and the occasional Wish. With its good move pool, it can lure many checks and counters. It can run its fightnium Z set to lure in and OHKO terrak and (or give a huge chunk) other steel types. Can run flamethrower/fireblast as well for steel types. I even came across a Psyshock Toge that can OHKO(if it's fully invested in SpA) or 2HKO a Nihilego after rocks and can dent other poison types like Tentacruel and Nidoking (this may be a stretch).

I really don't buy the stealth rocks weakness because it can also be applied to M-Alt pre-mega evolve but it's A+. The meta has many hazard removers as well, from defog-users (Gligar, Rotom-H, Empoleon, Hydreigon) and spinners(Tentacruel, Tsareena), so keeping up rocks is hard. The rise of usage of Rotom-H helped toge imo since it can help him clean off hazards and can switch-in to common checks like Scizor and Mamoswine. M-Alt is really popular right now so I can see why it faces competition with it, but Toge doesn't also fill a mega slot and that's one edge over M Alt. M-Alt might be the flavor of the month so I think it's best to wait for the meta to develop and see if MAlt is actually better, not just on the same level, as Toge.

Togekiss - Stay A+ for now

 

[Adaam]

These points have been discussed before but M-Alt and Togekiss should swap placements. M-Alt has been on a rampage in SPL and has won multiple games on its own. DD Facade, bulky DD Refresh, and just plain ol’ DD is insanely tough to handle without resorting to obliga-Sciz or a fat mega Steel-type, and it is really good at outlasting it’s checks with Natural Cure + Roost. Toge on the other hand is still good, and it’s still a fucking nightmare to play against if you have the audacity to run something with base 80 speed or below. However all recent trends dump on it. Lure Dreis and Taunt are more common now, Terrakion is everywhere, M-Aero is the dominant Mega Evo rn, Rotom-H Defogs on it etc etc. And unlike other Fairy-types it’s got pretty mediocre Defense which means the mighty Clanger has an easier busting through it with Pjab oml why haven’t we suspect tested this yet?

Celebi is another Pokémon that’s been seeing excellent play in SPL. It’s amazing against fatter builds as it can now break past Blissey with Z-Moves. NP Recover can also let it last a loooong time so you can nuke the Blissey and come back later on Quag or something to get your health right back up. Put that in A imo.

As someone who is often 6-0d by Sceptile that mon is for sure broken. Leaf Storm is so powerful and easy to throw out if they don’t have a Scizor, and pivoting around it with offense is a nightmare especially if the Fairy you picked was Primarina. I feel like mixed also has good potential w/Iron Tail to lure Malt and co but someone else can try that cause miss me with that 75% shit LOL.

Lastly, drop Heracross, there’s very little reason to use this over other Fighting-types unless you reaaaaaallly hate Scald. Keep Muk in B, it still does it’s job as a trapper very well even if it’s often a dead slot outside of the Lati MU. And send Cofag to F rank lol that mons ass free Hoopa to C+

 

[Smallsmallrose]

My hot takes:

Togekiss A+ -> A: Agree. In a meta where strong flying types are less dire, and Hydreigons are better equipped to out more passive fairies, this thing struggles to keep it's spot. It's still a very versatile option with niche Z-moves and it's air slashing can still be oppressive as hell, but it's definitely not the dominating factor it was when it first rose to A+.

Kyurem A- -> B+: Disagree. This thing is still really oppressive to balance with either of it's common sets. Subroost gives balance an utter headache by circumventing passive answers and specs dismantles pretty much every check/counter to the dragons like Hydra that give it competition. Its hard to slot on teams, especially now with the dominance of fighting types, but it's place as an anti-meta pick that tends to mess with typical defensive team structures that are equipped for Hydregion makes it more than deserving of the A- rank.

Heracross B -> B-: Agree. Heracross struggles to slot itself in a meta that isn't short of fighting type breakers. It's niche over Terrakion, Infernape, Kommo-o, etc. Is very small. Its far from a bad mon, it's still an exceptionally terrifying breaker that's going to get a kill anytime it comes in on something slower, but its hard to justify using over a more dominant fighter with additional niches over Hera.

Alolan Muk B -> B-: Disagree. I've actually used this mon quite recently and I don't think it deserves the mockery it's been getting. Sure, it's not super great against some more dominant metagame staples. But there's also plenty meta mainstays right now it IS good against. Sub Gengar utterly dominates teams that just use a scarfed dark to softcheck offensive ghosts. All of the most dominant Celebi builds are non-Ground Z, Latias is a constant lottery of what it's running. These trends and a few more that are happening are happening partially because people LET Muk fall out of the meta. Ironically enough, this has actually turned Muk into a red hot anti-meta pick. Able to blanket check most Latias sets, utterly dominating non-dragonium ones. It's ability to frustrate the omnipresent Celebi with the groundium variant going extinct, and it's ability to be a dark that actually battles sub Gengar better than other pursuit trappers and most other darks in general makes Muk extremely valuable to the teams it's used on. For every thing that Muk is bad against, there's something it's good against. And the 3 examples I drove home here were just examples. I can name even more fairly common mons that Muk is good against right now.

Mega Sceptile B- -> B: Agree. Mega Sceptile is utterly fantastic right now. Primarina asserting itself as one of the top fairies has given this thing some wiggle room to actually kill things. Being able to revenge kill a lot of the decently fast meta threats like Terrakion, Zydog, Zera, Mane. and non-scarf Hydras is also a trait of Mega Sceptile that is somewhat underrated and underplayed.

Zygarde-10% C+ -> B-: Agree. I've already had to change a few teams because of this rising star. Thousand Arrows is such a versatile, spammable move that makes Zydog extremely hard to check for certain builds. It also has a fantastic speed tier, blitzing the 108s like the swords of justice and Infernape, and even the 110s like Gengar and Latias with moves to hit all of the above super effectively makes it and absurdly strong pick right now. And this isn't even mentioning how few checks it has on some of the spikes builds it's seeing play on. A lot of it's softer checks fizzle out under triple spikes/stealth rock. I've had to factor this thing into a lot of my recent teambuilding and it's honestly given me a headache. It deserves the rise.

Cofagrigus C+ -> C/C-: Agree. The dominance of Hydreigon has hindered this thing somewhat. Not to mention stiff competition from other ghosts, the top of the crop in this regard being Gengar. Cofagrigus needs 3 turns to get one kill where as a well played Subgar can probably get 2 in that time. It deserves to stay ranked, seeing as it's still an interesting anti-offense pick with some notable traits over Gengar, but overall, its a matchup fishing mon that struggles to compete with the likes of Gengar.

 

[revelations]

Roserade to C+

Rose has been really solid lately thanks to the rise of multiple bulky waters such as Defensive Primarina & Slowbro and the plethora of electric types in the tier. Punishing metagame trends with its dual STAB combination can really come in handy for many teams. Roserade’s checks don’t want to switchin many times either thanks to its access to Sleep Powder giving a few turns for other pokemon to set up/sweep. This punishes specific pokemon such as Scizor who could switch in easily otherwise. It’s also an interesting spiker as it can for sure spikestack with its interesting offensive typing, but has to give up a slot to do so. It is easily exploited by faster pokemon or ones that can shrug off the dual stabs Rose carrys. Despite this, its variety of sets that can beat off its checks, great typing offensively/defensively, and ability to check multiple metagame threats has proven Roserade worthy of C+.

 

[Smallsmallrose]

Alright, time for another good round of hot takes from UU player Smallsmallrose. Lets start off with a bang, shall we?

Seismitoad and Rhyperior: C+ > B-
Swampert: B- > B
These 3 here are seeing a lot more value with Rotom-H being an extremely common defogger. Rhyperior, Swampert, and Seismitoad can all battle the oven quite easily by resisting most everything it can do and sustaining rocks against the hyper role-compression defogger, making them extremely powerful against balances that rely too much on Rotom-H's defog. They're also a lot more effective lately due to Manectric's rising preference for Non-HP grass. Signal Beam and HP ice have been seeing a lot more use in higher level play due to the dragons and Gligar, so it's less likely the Mane will have a move for this troublesome trio.

Gengar to A-:
As long as people continue to not use things like A-muk and Lax, teams will continue to fall over to Subgengar. Scarfed Krook and Hydra are rather mediocre answers to this mon at this stage. They can't switch in because Gengar will just sub up on the predicted switch, KO them, and then probably take another KO. And they struggle to revenge kill if a sub is up as well. If Gengar is given a free turn, it's utterly terrifying for anything less than the fattest teams. This mon not only appreciates Terrakion's omnipresence scaring off all the super thick normal and dark special walls that can battle it, but also appreciates it's speed tier being able to pick off Terrak. Gengar has cemented itself as quite a haunting pick in our current metagame, and I think A- suits it perfectly.

Blastoise-Mega to B+:
This mon has been picking up steam as a fantastic spinner and a hard-hitting water that a number of bulky teams can struggle with. Many trends like the dominance of things like Slowbros, Latias, Hydregion, Empoleon, etc. have made it stick out over similar options like Volcanion for it's unique ability to pump up it's dark pulses and aura spheres with Mega Launcher. It can also splash ice beam in there for things like Mega Altaria if needed. It's been a respectably popular mega lately and I think it deserves to finally come out from under the radar in it's VR rank.

Altaria-Mega to A+:
Speaking of popular Megas, this is arguably the most popular one right now. With the refresh DD sets picking up tons of steam and Altaria in general being a massive nuisance to many balance builds, as well as it's fantastic matchup against a number of hot meta picks like Kommo-o and Hydregion, this thing deserves to rise to A+. It's an incredibly versatile pick with many sets and many variations on those sets. Absurdly customizable spreads and a huge movepool are Altaria's game. While it's far from unbeatable and there are certainly mons that can battle most of it's sets consistently, its positives outweigh it's negatives to a degree that A+ would show.

I suppose I'll make some remarks on a couple of other people's proposals while I'm at it:

to UR: Disagree. it's passive nature means nothing when most of the teams it's used on are horribly passive anyways and usually build with the idea in mind that Registeel may be used as setup fodder, and will have answers to anything that sets up on Regi. I think it's a fine pick for any stall wanting to use a Mega that isn't a steel, like Slowbro or Altaria stalls.

to C+: Agree. It's a strong attacker that can set up hazards or just launch of attacks scarily well against more passive teams, and offensive grasses are a bit of an underrated pick in general right now as many offensive grass checks have been a bit zoned out with the leave of Serperior, Breloom, and Venusaur. Roserade is one of the mons that takes advantage of this very very well.

 

[War Incarnate]

Alright, time for another good round of hot takes from UU player Smallsmallrose. Lets start off with a bang, shall we?

View attachment 162157

Seismitoad and Rhyperior: C+ > B-
Swampert: B- > B
These 3 here are seeing a lot more value with Rotom-H being an extremely common defogger. Rhyperior, Swampert, and Seismitoad can all battle the oven quite easily by resisting most everything it can do and sustaining rocks against the hyper role-compression defogger, making them extremely powerful against balances that rely too much on Rotom-H's defog. They're also a lot more effective lately due to Manectric's rising preference for Non-HP grass. Signal Beam and HP ice have been seeing a lot more use in higher level play due to the dragons and Gligar, so it's less likely the Mane will have a move for this troublesome trio.
View attachment 162165
Gengar to A-:
As long as people continue to not use things like A-muk and Lax, teams will continue to fall over to Subgengar. Scarfed Krook and Hydra are rather mediocre answers to this mon at this stage. They can't switch in because Gengar will just sub up on the predicted switch, KO them, and then probably take another KO. And they struggle to revenge kill if a sub is up as well. If Gengar is given a free turn, it's utterly terrifying for anything less than the fattest teams. This mon not only appreciates Terrakion's omnipresence scaring off all the super thick normal and dark special walls that can battle it, but also appreciates it's speed tier being able to pick off Terrak. Gengar has cemented itself as quite a haunting pick in our current metagame, and I think A- suits it perfectly.
View attachment 162160
Blastoise-Mega to B+:
This mon has been picking up steam as a fantastic spinner and a hard-hitting water that a number of bulky teams can struggle with. Many trends like the dominance of things like Slowbros, Latias, Hydregion, Empoleon, etc. have made it stick out over similar options like Volcanion for it's unique ability to pump up it's dark pulses and aura spheres with Mega Launcher. It can also splash ice beam in there for things like Mega Altaria if needed. It's been a respectably popular mega lately and I think it deserves to finally come out from under the radar in it's VR rank.

View attachment 162161

Altaria-Mega to A+:
Speaking of popular Megas, this is arguably the most popular one right now. With the refresh DD sets picking up tons of steam and Altaria in general being a massive nuisance to many balance builds, as well as it's fantastic matchup against a number of hot meta picks like Kommo-o and Hydregion, this thing deserves to rise to A+. It's an incredibly versatile pick with many sets and many variations on those sets. Absurdly customizable spreads and a huge movepool are Altaria's game. While it's far from unbeatable and there are certainly mons that can battle most of it's sets consistently, its positives outweigh it's negatives to a degree that A+ would show.

I suppose I'll make some remarks on a couple of other people's proposals while I'm at it:
View attachment 162163to UR: Disagree. it's passive nature means nothing when most of the teams it's used on are horribly passive anyways and usually build with the idea in mind that Registeel may be used as setup fodder, and will have answers to anything that sets up on Regi. I think it's a fine pick for any stall wanting to use a Mega that isn't a steel, like Slowbro or Altaria stalls.
View attachment 162164to C+: Agree. It's a strong attacker that can set up hazards or just launch of attacks scarily well against more passive teams, and offensive grasses are a bit of an underrated pick in general right now as many offensive grass checks have been a bit zoned out with the leave of Serperior, Breloom, and Venusaur. Roserade is one of the mons that takes advantage of this very very well.

I'm mainly here to comment on your Registeel pointout, saying that you disagree with that point. However, there are some things that I disagree with when you pointed out reasons why this shouldn't drop.

First off, it has exploitable weaknesses to common types here in the metagame. Keep in mind that stuff such as Terrakion, even though it's weak to its Seismic Toss, can and likely will retaliate with a nasty combo of SD+CC. (Swords Dance+Close Combat). CB Terrakion is also able to OHKO with Close Combat, and Choice Scarf Terrakion can also 2HKO with Close Combat. Its low speed means that it gets outsped by pretty much everything barring Rhyperior, which is already at a low point anyways. Besides, Krookodile 2HKOs it with EQ, and can cripple it with Knock Off, while Registeel's Seismic Toss is only a 4HKO on Krookodile. Kommo-O hits it hard with CC, the mixed set can hit it hard with Flamethrower or Close Combat, and Close Combat 2HKOs Registeel, and after a boost, that can and will OHKO Registeel. You see the problem? Mega Aggron isn't gonna take as much as Registeel, and neither is Mega Steelix.

Second, it faces a lot of competition from Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix, since they're not as passive and have better abilities. Besides, the only reason you'd even run Registeel over the otherwise superior mega evolutions is because of the ability to hold Leftovers and less opportunity cost. And that's pretty much it. They aren't as vulnerable to Knock Off as Registeel, they don't rely on passive damage to hit their foes, and simply put, they are better in the fact they provide more to the team. In fact, Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix can provide some offensive roles, while Registeel is stuck on stall teams. Shit, I'd even give Blissey more credit due to her larger utility movepool and ability to cure status on the go. Sure, it's more vulnerable to physical attacks, but doesn't even need to worry about Knock Off crippling it thanks to Soft-Boiled.

Moreover, even if there is something that will check the threats that set up in Registeel's face, there will always be something to break whatever's in front of them. For example, if Registeel switches out into Mega Altaria, predicting a possible CC to the face, Kommo-O is likely gonna use Poison Jab to surprise the opponent. And what's even worse is that Mega Altaria is slower than Kommo-O so it's not gonna be able to get up Dragon Dance itself before it dies. Slowbro and Altaria stalls aren't even that good either. Slowbro dies to Hydreigon's Dark Pulse, Primarina's Energy Ball, pretty much any super effective special attack in general. Mega Altaria, while it indeed becomes bulkier upon mega evolving, is SUPER slow and its typing is HUGE Scizor bait. It's even bait for opposing Mega Slowbro packing Ice Beam. They're prone to easily dying, and although they have reliable recovery, they're not gonna be able to use it due to their shitty speed tiers.

Just to be honest, the meta doesn't like Registeel right now. In fact, I think it's really bad. It's essentially a wall that lets down its team since it gets worn down easily, it's weak to common attacking types here in UnderUsed, and gets crippled by Knock Off. It had its niche, but I think it's lost it right now.

*Edit: Even if Registeel's huge special defense makes it appealing, its lack of recovery and weakness to common types in Fire, Fighting, and Ground let that down. I could say about half the same things about Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix, however, they have simply more to offer to a team than Registeel. Mega Aggron can dish out some damage with Fire Punch/Earthquake/Heavy Slam while Mega Steelix can do the same with Gyro Ball/Earthquake/Heavy Slam.
Registeel can check Latias - but so can Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix. Sure, Mega Aggron has to watch out for a boosted HP Fire, but other than that, it can come in safely and retaliate with Heavy Slam - or better yet, Ice Punch. Mega Steelix gets 2HKO'd by HP Fire, but can and likely will OHKO with Gyro Ball. The Electrium Z set is rendered useless versus Mega Steelix, and even Gigavolt Havoc fails to deal sufficient damage to Mega Aggron. The CM set fails to do much versus Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix, and the Choice Scarf set is rendered almost useless since mega stones can't be tricked onto another pokemon.
They are able to check Latias, Hydreigon, and Scizor very well, but they don't check Latias as well as Registeel does. Hydreigon's Fire Blast fails to 2HKO Mega Aggron. Mega Steelix does get 2HKO'd by Hydreigon's Fire Blast, but it can 2HKO in return via Gyro Ball. Hydreigon's Defog set doesn't threaten Mega Steelix or Mega Aggron at all, so they can hit it hard with Gyro Ball and Heavy Slam, respectively. Taunt is annoying, but again, Mega Aggron doesn't care. It can and likely will retaliate with Heavy Slam, or if the set runs it - Ice Punch. Of course, the Choice Specs set is troublesome, but keep in mind that Fire Blast doesn't hit all the time. If it misses, (I've seen it more often than not, believe me) then Mega Aggron can 2HKO with Ice Punch or 3HKO with Heavy Slam. Mega Steelix has to worry more about getting OHKO'ed by Fire Blast, but again, if it misses, Mega Steelix can retaliate back with Gyro Ball, which will likely OHKO it. The LO set is a bit more annoying, but again, that, unlike Choice Specs, comes at the cost of 1/10 of your HP per turn, and this isn't able to 2HKO Mega Steelix, so Hydreigon has to worry about getting OHKO'ed by Gyro Ball. Every Scizor set dies to Mega Aggron sets that run Fire Punch and to Fire Fang variants of Mega Steelix.
Registeel is only able to deal with Latias, and other than that, it fails to check Hydreigon and Scizor, both of which are able to retaliate back with their own super effective coverage.

Noms that I support:

to B-

to B-

to B

to B+

to A+

to A-

 

[Twilight]

I'm mainly here to comment on your Registeel pointout, saying that you disagree with that point. However, there are some things that I disagree with when you pointed out reasons why this shouldn't drop.

First off, it has exploitable weaknesses to common types here in the metagame. Keep in mind that stuff such as Terrakion, even though it's weak to its Seismic Toss, can and likely will retaliate with a nasty combo of SD+CC. (Swords Dance+Close Combat). CB Terrakion is also able to OHKO with Close Combat, and Choice Scarf Terrakion can also 2HKO with Close Combat. Its low speed means that it gets outsped by pretty much everything barring Rhyperior, which is already at a low point anyways. Besides, Krookodile 2HKOs it with EQ, and can cripple it with Knock Off, while Registeel's Seismic Toss is only a 4HKO on Krookodile. Kommo-O hits it hard with CC, the mixed set can hit it hard with Flamethrower or Close Combat, and Close Combat 2HKOs Registeel, and after a boost, that can and will OHKO Registeel. You see the problem? Mega Aggron isn't gonna take as much as Registeel, and neither is Mega Steelix.

Second, it faces a lot of competition from Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix, since they're not as passive and have better abilities. Besides, the only reason you'd even run Registeel over the otherwise superior mega evolutions is because of the ability to hold Leftovers and less opportunity cost. And that's pretty much it. They aren't as vulnerable to Knock Off as Registeel, they don't rely on passive damage to hit their foes, and simply put, they are better in the fact they provide more to the team. In fact, Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix can provide some offensive roles, while Registeel is stuck on stall teams. Shit, I'd even give Blissey more credit due to her larger utility movepool and ability to cure status on the go. Sure, it's more vulnerable to physical attacks, but doesn't even need to worry about Knock Off crippling it thanks to Soft-Boiled.

Moreover, even if there is something that will check the threats that set up in Registeel's face, there will always be something to break whatever's in front of them. For example, if Registeel switches out into Mega Altaria, predicting a possible CC to the face, Kommo-O is likely gonna use Poison Jab to surprise the opponent. And what's even worse is that Mega Altaria is slower than Kommo-O so it's not gonna be able to get up Dragon Dance itself before it dies. Slowbro and Altaria stalls aren't even that good either. Slowbro dies to Hydreigon's Dark Pulse, Primarina's Energy Ball, pretty much any super effective special attack in general. Mega Altaria, while it indeed becomes bulkier upon mega evolving, is SUPER slow and its typing is HUGE Scizor bait. It's even bait for opposing Mega Slowbro packing Ice Beam. They're prone to easily dying, and although they have reliable recovery, they're not gonna be able to use it due to their shitty speed tiers.

Just to be honest, the meta doesn't like Registeel right now. In fact, I think it's really bad. It's essentially a wall that lets down its team since it gets worn down easily, it's weak to common attacking types here in UnderUsed, and gets crippled by Knock Off. It had its niche, but I think it's lost it right now.

I fail to see how these points mean registeel is bad / unviable. You bring up Pokemon like Terrakion, Kommo-o etc all things it isn't supposed to check anyways. And even if they do switch in then of course you are going to be forced out. This doesn't make the Mon bad. The same can be literally said about every single Pokemon, something will always force it out. Even if MegaLix and Aggron take less thanks to their better Def stats they still don't appreciate taking any of those moves as they lack any form of recovery, unlike regi which can have passive lefties recovery. Either way this Mon is meant for hella bulky teams meaning you'll most likely have a switch in to said threats. You then address prediction, but again literally anyone can do that against any Pokemon. E.g. You have Krook in vs Zeraora, you could easily expect the incoming flying type and Stone Edge. Saying Malt and Slowbro aren't good cos they die to coverage and their speed being sub-par again can be argued with every Pokemon. Everything has their weakness and exploit so I fail to see how these are valid arguments. Plus as mentioned it is mainly used on Stall where the speed isn't a factor in the teams success.

Overall this post has a lot of gaps in your argument as to why regi is bad. I agree fighting types are everywhere, but it's not like Aggron or whatever are useless because of this. Regi has a niche on the few bulky as fck squads it's run on as a steel type SR setter with passive recovery. Plus, sometimes it might be more benficial for those teams as it doesnt consume the mega slot. Keep it where it is imo.

Edit: I glanced over the para on stall and the difference between it and Lix etc. But still, it isn't supposed to be better than blissey which you seem to be leading towards. As they clearly don't do the same thing. So this comparison isn't very relevant

 

[pokemonisfun]

I fail to see how these points mean registeel is bad / unviable. You bring up Pokemon like Terrakion, Kommo-o etc all things it isn't supposed to check anyways. And even if they do switch in then of course you are going to be forced out. This doesn't make the Mon bad. The same can be literally said about every single Pokemon, something will always force it out. Even if MegaLix and Aggron take less thanks to their better Def stats they still don't appreciate taking any of those moves as they lack any form of recovery, unlike regi which can have passive lefties recovery. Either way this Mon is meant for hella bulky teams meaning you'll most likely have a switch in to said threats. You then address prediction, but again literally anyone can do that against any Pokemon. E.g. You have Krook in vs Zeraora, you could easily expect the incoming flying type and Stone Edge. Saying Malt and Slowbro aren't good cos they die to coverage and their speed being sub-par again can be argued with every Pokemon. Everything has their weakness and exploit so I fail to see how these are valid arguments. Plus as mentioned it is mainly used on Stall where the speed isn't a factor in the teams success.

Overall this post has a lot of gaps in your argument as to why regi is bad. I agree fighting types are everywhere, but it's not like Aggron or whatever are useless because of this. Regi has a niche on the few bulky as fck squads it's run on as a steel type SR setter with passive recovery. Plus, sometimes it might be more benficial for those teams as it doesnt consume the mega slot. Keep it where it is imo.

Edit: I glanced over the para on stall and the difference between it and Lix etc. But still, it isn't supposed to be better than blissey which you seem to be leading towards. As they clearly don't do the same thing. So this comparison isn't very relevant

SteelixPrismGX's point was that Mega Aggron/Mega Steelix have a lot of attack and extraordinary physical defense, so staying in on Pokemon like Terrakion, Kommo-o, and Krookodile is a much more usable strategy for Mega Aggron and Steelix.

I don't see any gap in SteelixPrismGX's post, in that what he argues has empirical evidence.

That said, both of you are missing one very important reason to use Registeel - base 150 spdef. Any discussion on Registeel's placement is, in my opinion, lacking, if you don't talk about the massive special defense difference. As a starter, both of you could discuss the implications of Registeel being able to more reliably counter Latias - one of our 3 S rank Pokemon and something Mega Steelix and Aggron cannot do as well.

As someone who cares about this thread and forum, I suggest this, no matter your rank or role: be productive if you're responding to someone else's post, be generous in your interpretations, find baselines we agree on and then go from there. It shouldn't be controversial that Registeel has a bad match up versus physical fightings/grounds but here we are spending precious posts and time writing about it...That's a shame when I know we are all good players capable of better analysis.

 

[dingbat]

Keeping this brief here.

DD is broken as fuck stupidly good rn, move to A+

Big fan of big rock chunk rn. Its vastly superior offensive presence as a bulky ground compared to most of its other counterparts (basically every other fat ground that’s not megalix) is a really underrated aspect rn and its unique ability to not only check birbs but also threaten the combination of annoying levitating pricks in rotom-h, latias, and hydra as a rocks setter is also huge rn. Move to B-

Its np set has fallen a bit out of favor due to its two direct competitors in Infernape and Mega Houndoom (moreso the former) generally being more reliable and while its corrosion set is still nice, it also got hurt by Gligar’s ascent in this meta. Move to C+

 

[yeezyknows]

c- --> c+/b-

Steelvally is one of the most underrated mons in the metagame, and it's more than viable on a ton of BO/balance archetypes. Steelvally serves as a strong blanket check to latias, scizor, and celebi, having access to defog, flamethrower for coverage, and parting shot to pivot freely around threatening mons. It helps versus primarina, togekiss, and nihilego as well, further proving its niche as a reliable pivot/defogger. It definitely has a role in uu that's more viable than c-, as its mono-steel typing awards it advantages over defoggers such as empoleon that are threatened by z-thunder latiases. flamethrower also allows it to guarantee ohkos against fully offensive/cb scizors, another niche that empoleon doesn't have.

all in all, steelvally is a solid pick in the current meta if you're looking for a defogger, as the metagame has definitely adapted to the oversaturation of empoleon as a defog mon, making steelvally co-opt its niche in certain regards. definitely worth a try if you haven't already used it.

 

[Sweep the Janitor]

View attachment 162547

c- --> c+/b-

Steelvally is one of the most underrated mons in the metagame, and it's more than viable on a ton of BO/balance archetypes. Steelvally serves as a strong blanket check to latias, scizor, and celebi, having access to defog, flamethrower for coverage, and parting shot to pivot freely around threatening mons. It helps versus primarina, togekiss, and nihilego as well, further proving its niche as a reliable pivot/defogger. It definitely has a role in uu that's more viable than c-, as its mono-steel typing awards it advantages over defoggers such as empoleon that are threatened by z-thunder latiases. flamethrower also allows it to guarantee ohkos against fully offensive/cb scizors, another niche that empoleon doesn't have.

all in all, steelvally is a solid pick in the current meta if you're looking for a defogger, as the metagame has definitely adapted to the oversaturation of empoleon as a defog mon, making steelvally co-opt its niche in certain regards. definitely worth a try if you haven't already used it.

I have to agree with this post to c+ at least. Steelvally also has toxic with parting shot to pressure mons like blissey, celebi (that's set up calm mind). If the mon switches out then you get parting shot on the silvally check and if they stay in your mon coming in doesn't do as much chip. One really important mon in the meta that it checks would have to be Mega Alt. You can come in on a predicted dragon dance, and force them into a 50/50, either risk getting poisoned through toxic, or lose it's set up. It survives a +1 earthquake and if the Alt player earthquakes loses out by poison damage or setup and possibly gives a free switch to a setup mon that beats Alt 1v1. Also lives 2 +1 returns. Really underated check but it should be noted that it dies if it switches into +1 return plus earthquake so it isn't a counter.

+1 252 Atk Altaria-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Steel: 304-358 (77.1 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Steelvally is quite a good defoger that can beat out or at least do it's job. Tentacruel is rendered quite useless, takes reduced damage from rocks and if necessary does it's job against hippowdon as it survives and gets a toxic off, forcing a switch or at crippling one of their scizor checks. Agree again- Even against empoleon it's great as parting shot reduces both SpA and Attack so empoleon does negligible damage. Thanks for reading i think it's my first vr reply?

 

[boris69]

Can someone help me understand why Scizor is S tier? My assumption is the defog wall set, I have a bias because that's the version of the mon I use but I have seen a sweeping set before a few times.

 

[Sickist]

Scizor is S tier because it provides amazing offensive presence, through sets like Choice Band or Swords Dance, can provide defensive utility, such as what you mentioned in defog, as well as being able to switch into things like Latias and other dragons. It also acts in several roles, whether it be a wallbreaker, sweeper, pivot, defogger, etc. Scizor just has so much it can do, and that's why it's the best pokemon in the tier and S rank.

 

[boris69]

Scizor is S tier because it provides amazing offensive presence, through sets like Choice Band or Swords Dance, can provide defensive utility, such as what you mentioned in defog, as well as being able to switch into things like Latias and other dragons. It also acts in several roles, whether it be a wallbreaker, sweeper, pivot, defogger, etc. Scizor just has so much it can do, and that's why it's the best pokemon in the tier and S rank.

Thanks I assumed it had something to do with how it can switch into a lot of the threats in UU right now.

 

[Aww_Shuckle]

Thanks I assumed it had something to do with how it can switch into a lot of the threats in UU right now.

As a general rule, a mon is tiered based on its most viable set. For some other tiers, there's a separate thread just about the viability of various sets. Versatility is useful by indirectly making various sets more viable by forcing guessing games before it's revealed.

In the case of Scizor, I'd say both Choice Band and SD sets are S tier with the bulky defog set ranked slightly lower. It's still very good, just not as meta-defining as CB or SD.

I'll give my opinions on other noms.

Steelvally to C+: agree. Overall, it's outclassed as defogger by Empoleon, but its niche is notable enough to warrant being moved up. I don't think it should move to B- though as its niche is small and it can't risk using parting shot against Bisharp teams as giving it a free +3 attack could lose you the game

Mega Altaria to A+: agree. DD sets are very good right now and support sets are bopping Scizors and other steels that are starting to reflexively come in.

Rhyperior to B-: no opinion. I haven't used it, nor faced it enough

Salazzle to C+: agree. It feels like Gligar is on every 1/3 team now. It also doesn't appreciate the increased number of teams running clerics like heal bell Altaria even though it can come in freely on that set unless rocks are up.

Roserade to C+: agree. I even think it could go to B-, but C+ is fine for now. It's arguably the best offensive spiker right now; able to threaten big damage on common hazard removers with Sludge Bomb on Mega Altaria and Rotom-H, Leaf Storm to Empoleon, and can choose between HP fire and HP ice to hit Gligar or Scizor depending on team need

 

[SacredLatias]

As a general rule of thumb, ranking is determined by the versatility of a pokemon, and how easily it can be slotted into a team. Pokemon such as Latias, Scizor, and Hydreigon are extremely powerful in uu, and able to run a variety of sets to fit almost any role on a team. Perfect examples are Roserade and the aforementioned Scizor. Scizor is S tier because of its ability to fit basically any team because of its utility, stats, and typing. Roserade still has a viable niche, but it is harder to justify over other pokemon in the tier. Now, onto some thoughts.

->A+: Absolutely agree
Mega Altaria is in an amazing place right now, able to literally win games on its own. DD variants are stellar offensively, and defensive variants are still quite good. It absolutely deserves a place in A+, maybe even S depending on how the meta continues to form.

->A-: Probably
While BlockBro is still an amazing set, and Mega Slowbro is one of the best Terrakion switchins in UU, I feel that it's less viable than its standard brother, because of a lack of regenerator and is much more susceptible to hazards and status. Not only that, but blockbro in general is becoming less viable due walls carrying roar now to help alleviate this weakness. Still an amazing pokemon, but I personally feel it is less viable due to these flaws.

->B-: Makes sense
Dont have much to add on, check dingbat's post above.

That concludes my thoughts! You can lemme know if you disagree, or thought something shoulda been added on!