Unpopular opinions

[pokemon4eva]

Speaking of Red, I've seen this video discussing about some characters getting worse. It's on Spanish so I'm explaining it here+my thoughts.

For Red, it remarks the importance and meaning of the fight in the johto games: you fighting your own representation of the past and overcoming it, fitting since GSC happens 3 years after the events of RBY, the shadow of Kanto always looming in Johto. Which loses meaning once Red became a recurring character in plenty of games as the superboss mostly because he's popular, kinda like the Iron Giant in current Warner movies. BW2 specially being a massively wasted opportunity by being the only sequel alongside GSC, and we could've had a Hilbert/Hilda fight like the Drayano hacks do.

Now Wally...this has been an interesting take Karimero had for a while. He appeciates the tiny detail of his family not knowing about Wally's whereabouts in the original RSE, which remarks Wally's independence despite being a frail boy, also him ultimately failing despite his best efforts as a harsh but great lesson; but in ORAS this loses meaning because his family openly support him. Ok, both Wallys suffer from getting short of screentime, and if anything, the added scene in ORAS is pretty wholesome (the teleport to Mauville SUCKS, however), it gives a few thoughts of parenthood from Norman and Wally's father, the battle in Victory Road is overall more poignant and after this Wally surpasses his limits and becomes the superboss of ORAS, so the self superation lesson isn't lost. So yeah, disagree with this take.

He also mentions Norman being irrelevant in the Delta episode, Zinzolin being disappointly evil in BW2 and the USUM Aether family having a less important role, but I think those takes are more popular.

PD. We're approaching page 400 bois

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I actually like the USUM version of the Lusamine family, they get a happyish ending and are less dysfunctional (Lusamine herself ofc). Lusamine is far less intimidating and memorable as an opponent, on the other hand...but that's fine as you get to fight Ultra Necrozma instead.

I partly agree on Red, I think they kinda did ruin him. He's too ''memetic'' as the strongest trainer alive IMO out-of-universe but in-universe doesn't really seem convincing as the strongest outside level, and lacks character on top of that. I'd have loved if Red had actual personality other than just being someone that fights you - all the other Champions have personality and roles outside direct combat.

Cynthia was nice and polite, Lance humble if incredibly driven to beat up guys that abuse Pokemon and helped Silver redeem himself, Diantha was as bland as bread but at least comes across as a living being, Steven likes stones and is generally suave but has funny moments concerning his dad, Alder was a wise dude that has an actual backstory and inspired character development in others like Cheren, N is N, Wallace is a flamboyant and artsy kind, Leon is responsible yet funny with his inability to follow directions, Iris is a literal child with a playful and upbeat personality, Kukui is the Masked Royal and a very fun-loving dude, and Hau is a really mellow and happy-go-lucky kid that grows up and starts taking being a trainer more seriously. Even Blue, of course, is a cocky kid that doesn't care much for his Pokemon or for other people and routinely taunts you or others.

But Red? Dude's a literal blank slate. This was actually completely fine in GSC, less so in HGSS or beyond though. I'd have preferred if Red perhaps was a a more straight up nice if quiet character kinda like Erika, contrasting him with the more gregarious and still slightly annoying Blue. They could've also given him better teams including the likes of Mewtwo, the Johto starters, and Sylveon - that way his status as the best is actually believable. Imagine a team involving Light Ball Pikachu, one of the Kanto Mega Starters (varies every match), Mewtwo, Normalium Z Snorlax, Multiscale Dragonite (obtained from Dragon's Den in Johto, because he went there too), and one of the Alola starters that counters the Kanto one's weaknesses. For instance, if Red uses Mega Charizard X or Y, the Alola starter is Decidueye, and if he uses Mega Venusaur, Primarina, and so on.

That'd be a much more fitting team for the strongest trainer of them all, and all of these are either event or mandatory Pokemon like the ones he had before, and make sense given the regions associated with Red other than Kanto (he literally appears in the Johto games as the final story boss and is literally in Alola right now, so him having a Johto Pokemon and an Alolan Pokemon makes sense). If Dragonite is too strange, Tyranitar can replace him just fine, especially given Larvitar can be found in Mt. Silver and be obtained from the Game Corner in Crystal...

Norman being irrelevant in the Delta Episode is fine IMO, Zinzolin turning evil again is strange though.

 

[Wukong]

For Red, it remarks the importance and meaning of the fight in the johto games: you fighting your own representation of the past and overcoming it, fitting since GSC happens 3 years after the events of RBY, the shadow of Kanto always looming in Johto. Which loses meaning once Red became a recurring character in plenty of games as the superboss mostly because he's popular, kinda like the Iron Giant in current Warner movies. BW2 specially being a massively wasted opportunity by being the only sequel alongside GSC, and we could've had a Hilbert/Hilda fight like the Drayano hacks do.

Completely agree. The concept of the Red fight in HGSS is overcoming the shadow of someone who did it before you, arguably better, until you prove otherwise. Which is why I pointed out earlier in this thread, not having such a fight at the end of B2W2 leaves something to be desired. But I think your wording of essentially overcoming a shadow that looms over you really puts this point into perspective. Well said.

 

[ThatOneSpork]

What about them replacing the Red fights with the characters you play as in previous games? While It would seem too much like it's copying the original, it would still be fun to see these characters you may or may not have played as being recognized in more than just their games.

 

[Sonikku A]

What about them replacing the Red fights with the characters you play as in previous games? While It would seem too much like it's copying the original, it would still be fun to see these characters you may or may not have played as being recognized in more than just their games.

Sadly scrapped in BW2
Would've probably stopped the Red Spam, but no

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Fighting Red multiple times is one thing (just make him more interesting as a character and fighter).

I would've loved to fight Gold, Brendan, May, Kris, Lyra, Silver, and the rest of them though.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Fighting Red multiple times is one thing (just make him more interesting as a character and fighter).

I would've loved to fight Gold, Brendan, May, Kris, Lyra, Silver, and the rest of them though.

Problem with that is you have to make a canon team for all of them and I doubt people could agree enough to do that. Going by the same logic as Red, Gold's canon team would be [starter], Togetic, Sudowoodo, Dragonite, one of the Hitmons, and one of the Eeveelutions which is kind of underwhelming. Brendan/May's is even worse: [starter], Castform, Kecleon, Wobbuffet, one of the fossils, and Metagross.

The gimmick worked for Red but I think repeating it for every generation would fall flat.

 

[Yung Dramps]

I always thought it'd be cool for a Red-style match with the Gen 3 protags to be a double battle where they team up with Norman considering that's the gen that introduced doubles

 

[Hugin]

Problem with that is you have to make a canon team for all of them and I doubt people could agree enough to do that. Going by the same logic as Red, Gold's canon team would be [starter], Togetic, Sudowoodo, Dragonite, one of the Hitmons, and one of the Eeveelutions which is kind of underwhelming. Brendan/May's is even worse: [starter], Castform, Kecleon, Wobbuffet, one of the fossils, and Metagross.

The gimmick worked for Red but I think repeating it for every generation would fall flat.

I think the source on Red's team was less Yellow's Giftmons and more the anime. Pikachu, 3 starters, Snorlax, and Lapras were all mons used by Ash. It's also 3 starters and 3 with a lot of publicity. Based on a combo of that and the rival fights, here's an option for the canon teams. Lots of them are only 5 mons, but I figured listing 5 was better than picking a 6th at random the way Espeon seemed to be chosen.

Hide

Gold: Meganium, Typhlosion, Feraligatr, Heracross, Noctowl, Donphan. I'd run Togetic over Noctowl, but basically any Johto mon for the final 2 slots seems fine.
Silver: Sneasel, Crobat, Magneton, Gengar, Alakazam, and one other. TTar seems obvious, but again, plenty of options work.
Ruby: Blaziken, Swampert, Sceptile, Swellow, Glalie, any other. The starters+Ash's Hoenn mons, with type overlaps eliminated.
Sapphire: Delcatty, Beautifly, Wailord, Breloom, Camerupt, any other. This is a combo of May's anime team and your rival's team from RS. Side note, May catches jack-all for Hoenn mons, and your rival has nothing available except FWG. The options here were very limited.
Wally: Altaria, Delcatty, Roselia, Magneton, Gardevoir, one other. This was easy, it's literally his final team.
You could give Ruby Torkoal+Corphish and Sapphire Blaziken, but I prefered the Red/Blue dichotomy of one side getting the starters, the other getting the non-starters, rather than Anime loyalty.

I'm not saying that setup is perfect or anything. Rather, there were enough mons available to give us a canon team for each major character at the time, and if they'd done so, that mon selection would be as obvious to us now as Red having Lapras and Blue having Aerodactyl.

 

[Ironmage]

Problem with that is you have to make a canon team for all of them and I doubt people could agree enough to do that. Going by the same logic as Red, Gold's canon team would be [starter], Togetic, Sudowoodo, Dragonite, one of the Hitmons, and one of the Eeveelutions which is kind of underwhelming. Brendan/May's is even worse: [starter], Castform, Kecleon, Wobbuffet, one of the fossils, and Metagross.

The gimmick worked for Red but I think repeating it for every generation would fall flat.

Eh, if they're just doing one "player character" team, it would probably have all three starters. Means you would probably still be stuck with one deadweight, but that's just equivalent Red's pikachu.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I think the source on Red's team was less Yellow's Giftmons and more the anime. Pikachu, 3 starters, Snorlax, and Lapras were all mons used by Ash. It's also 3 starters and 3 with a lot of publicity.

Yellow itself is based on the anime so it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Regardless, Red's team very clearly isn't directly based on the anime - if it were, his Venusaur and Blastoise shouldn't be evolved, and he should be using a Pidgeot or Primeape or Muk in place of Snorlax because Ash doesn't use that until the Orange Islands. There's no need to overthink it, it literally is just Pikachu+all three starters+the forced encounter mons. Espeon isn't a random choice, it's the Eevee you get from Celadon Mansion. Espeon was probably chosen because it fills a type gap, and because the RBY games don't have a nighttime (thus Gen I players are always in the day). HGSS probably switched it to Lapras because it makes more sense for Red to have 6 Kanto mons, and because it benefits from the hail.

If you're going to make the argument that it's based on the anime then it's just as plausibly based on the manga because Red uses an Espeon there.

Based on a combo of that and the rival fights, here's an option for the canon teams. Lots of them are only 5 mons, but I figured listing 5 was better than picking a 6th at random the way Espeon seemed to be chosen.

Hide

Gold: Meganium, Typhlosion, Feraligatr, Heracross, Noctowl, Donphan. I'd run Togetic over Noctowl, but basically any Johto mon for the final 2 slots seems fine.
Silver: Sneasel, Crobat, Magneton, Gengar, Alakazam, and one other. TTar seems obvious, but again, plenty of options work.
Ruby: Blaziken, Swampert, Sceptile, Swellow, Glalie, any other. The starters+Ash's Hoenn mons, with type overlaps eliminated.
Sapphire: Delcatty, Beautifly, Wailord, Breloom, Camerupt, any other. This is a combo of May's anime team and your rival's team from RS. Side note, May catches jack-all for Hoenn mons, and your rival has nothing available except FWG. The options here were very limited.
Wally: Altaria, Delcatty, Roselia, Magneton, Gardevoir, one other. This was easy, it's literally his final team.
You could give Ruby Torkoal+Corphish and Sapphire Blaziken, but I prefered the Red/Blue dichotomy of one side getting the starters, the other getting the non-starters, rather than Anime loyalty.

I'm not saying that setup is perfect or anything. Rather, there were enough mons available to give us a canon team for each major character at the time, and if they'd done so, that mon selection would be as obvious to us now as Red having Lapras and Blue having Aerodactyl.

These are nice and everything, but you're literally demonstrating the point I was making - people aren't going to be able to agree enough to make canon teams. You can pluck literally any six Pokemon out of the ether and say "there, that's their canon team" but someone else will be able to argue their chosen picks. Another poster could come along any minute and give their chosen six, and so could someone else, and then we'd all be arguing and we wouldn't get anywhere because no-one's opinion has any more weight or validity than anyone else's*. If I cared to, I could vehemently argue that Delcatty shouldn't be part of Wally's canon team because he doesn't use it in rematches in ORAS, or that because official artwork tends to show Lucas with Turtwig, Barry with Chimchar, and Dawn with Piplup then that makes them their canon starters.

What I was said was "following the logic of Red's team" ie starters+giftmons, but the giftmons in later games aren't as good as the RBY ones hence why I said their teams would be underwhelming.

Anime teams don't really bear any relation to the games because the Pokemon the main cast in the anime use are just those which are considered most marketable and/or recognisable. Hence Iris having a slightly odd set of Pokemon like Emolga and Gible (even though Ash has one too) and Dawn's Piplup never evolving. They literally stated that this was because Piplup was more marketable than Prinplup or Empoleon. There's no reason to think of them as having any relation to the games.

*plus I'm pretty sure that's wishlisting and thus against the rules of the thread

 

[Imperial Magala]

I thought it referenced Red's Eevee, Vee, evolving into Espeon in the Gold/Silver chapter of Adventures. The dates might not match up though. On a related note, I like Red having an Espeon because it can be contrasted by an Umbreon, and who's non-game counterpart gets an Umbreon?

 

[Pikachu315111]

*plus I'm pretty sure that's wishlisting and thus against the rules of the thread

No, as long as it doesn't get out of hand like EVERYONE suggesting teams, a little speculation is fine (thus, I won't be suggesting teams).

That said, I wouldn't say the teams are as "locked" as you think they are. Case and point, Let's Go. In those games they did something I really liked: Red, Blue, and Green each had one of the Starters. This meant each of them couldn't have the teams they normally would, plus they didn't want to have Type overlap so some additional changes need to be made. For reference here are their Let's Go teams (bolding notable changes or, in Green's case, inclusions):

• Red: Venusaur, Pikachu, Snorlax, Lapras, Arcanine, Machamp
• Blue: Charizard, Alakazam, Gyarados, Exeggutor, Aerodactyl, Tauros
• Green: Blastoise, Clefable, Gengar, Victreebel, Ninetales, Kangaskhan

Now, for the most part, Red & Blue's team remain the same except for two. In Red's case, since he doesn't have Charizard but Blue does, they gave him Arcanine which Blue normally has. However, since Red has a Lapras, he doesn't need the Gyarados (it stayed with Blue since he still needed a Water-type). So, following another pattern they set up with the Gen I protags which I'll get to, they gave him Machamp which is sometimes used by Blue when he's either not using his Rhydon/Rhyperior and/or when they don't feel like overlapping Types so replaces his Alakazam with it (since Exeggutor is part Psychic and he still needs a Grass-type).

Trace's second "ace" and eventual Mega Pokemon is Pidgeot which is normally a Pokemon that Blue has. However, beginning B2W2 they started to replace it with Aerodactyl. So Aerodactyl's placement here isn't too odd but could be an ongoing trend that, outside of Battle Facilities, the day of Blue's team containing a Pidgeot may be gone. However, with Aerodactyl being Rock-type, that meant they couldn't give Blue his usual Rhydon (it was left as Giovanni's ace). So, following another pattern, they gave him a new Normal-type in Tauros. At first seems like a random pick, but minus Aerodactyl his team is the same as one of the dummied out Professor Oak's teams in Gen I, specifically the one if you picked Squirtle as your Starter (as that would leave Charmander behind which Oak would have raised into a Charizard).

Only notable thing about Green's team is she has Blastoise thus Red doesn't. Otherwise, might as well then go into the new pattern they used to make the Gen I protags teams. In addition to each having a Starter, all of them also have a Fire/Grass/Normal-types, Pokemon that evolves by Trading, Pokemon that evolves by an Evo Stone, and each has at least one Type unique to them (this pattern is also true if you add in Trace's team: Jolteon/Raichu, Pidgeot, Vileplume, Rapidash, Slowbro, Marowak).

Now, part of this is likely because they were limited to the original 150 and wanted to include Green; but still it shows they're not afraid to shake-up the formula if it means making more interesting teams for the main protags. Now, to do a similar idea in the other games, the only gens they could have problems with is Gen V, & VI. Gen V technically has two sets of trios, and while B2W2 is good to go there's the issue of the original; though if they keep Cheren a Normal-type specialist and give Bianca the other Starter than there's no problem. Gen VI problem isn't that there isn't a trio to get the Starter, is that there's extra baggage; while Calem, Serena, and Shauna will get get the Starters, will since they have Shauna would be a bit awkward to leave Trevor and Tierno out (though those two they can do whatever they want with as they have their own quirks/gimmick).

But, yeah, I so no reason why the other Protags can't be included and given interesting teams either following their own unique patterns or just going "screw it" and giving them a nice well rounded team made of Pokemon from their generation, only needing some to have some connection with the character.

 

[Suspicious Derivative]

These are nice and everything, but you're literally demonstrating the point I was making - people aren't going to be able to agree enough to make canon teams. You can pluck literally any six Pokemon out of the ether and say "there, that's their canon team" but someone else will be able to argue their chosen picks. Another poster could come along any minute and give their chosen six, and so could someone else, and then we'd all be arguing and we wouldn't get anywhere because no-one's opinion has any more weight or validity than anyone else's*. If I cared to, I could vehemently argue that Delcatty shouldn't be part of Wally's canon team because he doesn't use it in rematches in ORAS, or that because official artwork tends to show Lucas with Turtwig, Barry with Chimchar, and Dawn with Piplup then that makes them their canon starters.

I agree with this, and it is yet another reason as for why I liked how you didn't get to battle the B/W protagonist in B2/W2. Because if you had been able to battle them, what would their team have been? I can't really think of anything good that "everyone" would agree with. To tell the truth, I don't fully agree with the choices for Red's team in the Johto games either. That said, I guess they could have utilized Memory Link for it in B2/W2, but even then, I think there would have been issues. Plus, I really dislike the idea of turning the B/W protagonist into a lifeless, hollow, silent NPC like Red ended up being outside of the Kanto games. My unpopular opinion still stands, I liked how you didn't get to battle the B/W protagonist in B2/W2. I also like how you don't get to battle the protagonist(s) from other games in any other generations either. Except Red, as well as Green in LGP/E. Now that I look back at it, I sort of dislike how they have forced Red into so many games, making him an NPC in the first place was a bad decision IMO. Perhaps that's an unpopular opinion?

I thought it referenced Red's Eevee, Vee, evolving into Espeon in the Gold/Silver chapter of Adventures. The dates might not match up though. On a related note, I like Red having an Espeon because it can be contrasted by an Umbreon, and who's non-game counterpart gets an Umbreon?

I think it is the other way around. I get the impression that the games were released long before the manga revealed that Red's Eevee had evolved into Espeon. Checking the G/S/C chapter of the manga now, it debuts as an Espeon in chapter 115, which is at the end of volume 9. It feels to me that this chapter of the manga was originally published quite long after the games were released. So I think it was the other way around, the manga gave Red an Espeon in order to reference Red having an Espeon in the games.

 

[Wukong]

But, yeah, I so no reason why the other Protags can't be included and given interesting teams either following their own unique patterns or just going "screw it" and giving them a nice well rounded team made of Pokemon from their generation, only needing some to have some connection with the character.

It's fun to theorize about other protagonists' canon teams but I would not be a fan of implementing such fights in games as super bosses, ala Red. It would dilute the significance of that Red fight. The concept of the Red fight isn't just a good concept, it's practically a necessity for me to consider HGSS good games personally.

Johto and Kanto have a unique dynamic amongst regions whereby Johto is almost like a little brother to Kanto. They're right next to each other and Kanto casts a shadow over Johto both literally and figuratively. Literally, Kanto is a fair amount larger than Johto in both size and population based on the Japanese regions they're inspired by. Figuratively, Kanto is much more modern and cutting edge while Johto appears behind the times in comparison.

Pokémon wise, Johto is pretty clearly framed as inferior. Many Johto Pokémon have Kanto ties in the form of their evolutions, and the number of Johto Pokémon count 33% less than Kanto. Battling wise, Johto Pokémon also fall short. Half the Johto gym leaders using Kanto aces speaks to even the Johto natives believing their native Pokémon aren't up to the task of living up to Kanto.

Additionally, Johto is the only region which does not have its own Elite Four. Some may claim Johto and Kanto share an Elite Four but I think it really belongs to Kanto. You're literally in Kanto from a map perspective once you're at Indigo Plateau. Yet another example of Kanto overshadowing Johto.

Which is why I think the underlying theme of GSC and HGSS is that it's up to YOU as the protagonist to carry the torch for Johto and prove that it can compete with the vaunted Kanto region. It's like an underdog story in a way. Which is why I try to use only Johto Pokémon on my GSC and HGSS playthroughs, despite how difficult that is to do in these games, since it's thematically significant to me.

And it's also why, again, I believe the Red fight at the end of these games is a necessity to close the narrative and prove that Johto has finally arrived, by beating the greatest Kanto trainer. No other pair of regions has this kind of dynamic which is why I don't see the point of implementing such fights with other protagonists in other games. It would only serve to dilute the significance of the one time where it makes sense.

The only other time of course being B2W2 in my opinion, but I already expounded on that earlier in this thread. It's a somewhat similar concept, though not so much regional based as much as surpassing someone who did what you did (defeating Team Plasma) except did it better since he faced them in their prime, and did it before you.

 

[Pikachu315111]

It would dilute the significance of that Red fight. The concept of the Red fight isn't just a good concept, it's practically a necessity for me to consider HGSS good games personally.

No, what dilutes the Red fight is them using him over and over because he's the ONLY former protagonist you can battle as an NPC. Now, this probably wouldn't stop the reuses of Red, the only instance it possibly would may be for Sun & Moon (and even then possibly wouldn't prevent it cause 20th anniversary).

To be fair, context is important, you can't just toss in a previous game protag without there being a reason. To be fair the only immediate "logical" other protag fight would be the BW protag in B2W2 that was planned & scrapped. All the others they would have to come up with a workaround reason (if anything at all). Also, the timeline is important here as we can't have Ethan/Kris & Lucas/Dawn appearing in the Kanto or Hoenn games, and from then on in remakes we can't have protags from future games show up (the only exception being B2W2 as they supposedly took place at the same time as XY, but then you'd have to come up with a reason why Calem/Serena took a trip to Unova. Of course, I say all this while Sun & Moon has Cynthia and Wally for no particular reason show up in the Battle Tree. Say, how about instead of those two, we included the previous protagonists. Heck, considering in Sun & Moon the player becomes Alola's first champion, Red (& Blue) run the Battle Tree, and its an anniversary game why not have had at least one protag from every region appear in the Battle Tree. Wouldn't even need to explain who they are aside from a Champion from another region. They wouldn't even need to make official teams for them, just give them a batch of good mons from their generation to pick randomly (maybe making sure they pick at least one of the Starters) and there ya go!

Also, if having other protags being battle-able in other games somehow takes away your enjoyment of Red being battle-able in HGSS, I gotta ask: Are you SURE you like the Red battle in HGSS (or Johto games in general)? Because it sounds like you actually don't, you only accept it because its the only former protag that can be battled, which isn't a good way to look at it.

Johto and Kanto have a unique dynamic amongst regions whereby Johto is almost like a little brother to Kanto. (...) Kanto is a fair amount larger than Johto in both size and population based on the Japanese regions they're inspired by. Figuratively, Kanto is much more modern and cutting edge while Johto appears behind the times in comparison.

Pokémon wise, Johto is pretty clearly framed as inferior. Many Johto Pokémon have Kanto ties in the form of their evolutions, and the number of Johto Pokémon count 33% less than Kanto. Battling wise, Johto Pokémon also fall short. Half the Johto gym leaders using Kanto aces speaks to even the Johto natives believing their native Pokémon aren't up to the task of living up to Kanto.

Additionally, Johto is the only region which does not have its own Elite Four. Some may claim Johto and Kanto share an Elite Four but I think it really belongs to Kanto. You're literally in Kanto from a map perspective once you're at Indigo Plateau. Yet another example of Kanto overshadowing Johto.

I think you're seeing things a bit too literally. The problem with the way they have presented Johto is that it didn't exist when they were making the first games. In-lore, the Gen I Pokemon in Johto are just as native as the new Gen II Pokemon (heck, they also have Gen II Pokemon appearing in Kanto including some exclusives (though that was probably a bad idea in the long run)). They're on the same landmass, they share the same shoreline, Pokemon from one are going to cross over to the other. It's not strange for half the Gym Leaders to be using Gen I mons because to them they are using native Pokemon, it's just out of meta the player saw that Pokemon a few years ago in the original Gen I games.

Johto isn't behind the times, its meant to be a counterpart to the more technologcial Kanto by focusing on traditions and history. Now, it could be because we're not native Japanese we miss a lot of these cultural reference, but to say they're "behind the times" is shortsighted to what they're trying to do with Johto. If Johto was just as technological as Kanto it would feel even more like just an expansion pack.

But yeah, a lot of Johto mons fall short. I mean, who uses Azumarill, Wobbuffet, Heracross, Sneasel, Skarmory, Donphan, Smeargle, Miltank, and Tyranitar? LOSERS, that's who. These Pokemon can't stack up to the likes of Butterfree, Beedrill, Raticate, Arbok, Wigglytuff, Vileplume, Venomoth, Dugtrio, Persian, Golduck, Victreebel, Golem, Rapidash, Farfetch'd, Dewgong, Hypno, Exeggutor, Lickitung, Tangela, & Seaking; all works of art and masters of battle. And how dare Johto defile Gen I Pokemon by giving them inferior evolutions like Crobat, Steelix, Scizor, Kingdra, & Blissey; without Johto they wouldn't exist and all their superior prevos would be better off for it!... This is sarcasm BTW. Sure, all Gen II Pokemon aren't winners, but neither are Gen I. Also should the number of Pokemon really be held against Johto? Okay, it has less Pokemon... so what? You wanted 150 new Pokemon and only them in the Johto? While I give crap to GF for sometimes not thinking ahead, I'll give early GF credit for thinking ahead about not only restraining the amount of new Pokemon but also using older Pokemon to fill out regional dexes cause there's nothing wrong with the older Pokemon so are vital tools.

But you're right about the Elite Four belonging to Kanto which is why it's located deep within Kanto, they don't accept the Johto Badges and they kept the Elite Four exactly the same as the Gen I games. Oh, wait, it's inbetween both Regions, they do accept the Johto Badges, and the only returning Elite Four members are Bruno and sorta Lance though he's now Champion; Lance who btw is from Blackthorn City which is located in Johto so the current Champion of the Indigo League is a Johtian (and the new "top" of the Elite Four uses the new Dark-type that was introduced in Gen II).

Also, could it also be a reason you feel Kanto is superior is because it was made the post game area thus every trainer there was given a higher level in order to keep up with the player? It's personally why I would like to see a game which starts out in Kanto but then lets the player go into Johto, to see how the Johto region adjusts to being the post game area that has to have the higher level trainers.

Which is why I think the underlying theme of GSC and HGSS is that it's up to YOU as the protagonist to carry the torch for Johto and prove that it can compete with the vaunted Kanto region. It's like an underdog story in a way. Which is why I try to use only Johto Pokémon on my GSC and HGSS playthroughs, despite how difficult that is to do in these games, since it's thematically significant to me.

And it's also why, again, I believe the Red fight at the end of these games is a necessity to close the narrative and prove that Johto has finally arrived, by beating the greatest Kanto trainer. No other pair of regions has this kind of dynamic which is why I don't see the point of implementing such fights with other protagonists in other games. It would only serve to dilute the significance of the one time where it makes sense.

I just want to note that you have an interesting perspective of this and I can see where you're coming from. It is certainly Johto showing they're as good as a region Kanto is... but I also feel that's done more through exploring the region and seeing what it has to offer than a hero of Johto coming to kick the butt of the previous protag. Because, he's a problem with that: we're no longer playing Red. Now he's just another NPC, controlled by the computer and, while made tough, was also made to lose just from the fact his Pokemon are locked. While if you lose to him you can go back and train, Red will never change his team, raise their levels, or change their Move. It's only a matter of time before you defeat Red. And, as I noted, the Champion is already a Johtian, if anything Johto has proven itself capable and its more Kanto is sort of stagnating. Though, once again, is it actually stagnating OR is it just that way to the player because we played the Kanto games so we know all about Kanto thus only the new stuff and what's going on with the characters has any novelty.

You're right, no other regions shares the dichotomy of Kanto & Johto, but that shouldn't mean characters from different regions can't interact with one another. Also when one of the core concepts of Pokemon is "being THE master" which seems to indicate being the strongest trainer, well, why wouldn't the other player characters go out looking for the other/future player characters?

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Here's another reason you couldn't have previous protags show up: gender options. There was no choice in RBY, you had to be Red. So there was no-one else who could appear in Mt Silver. But I recall when HGSS came out people were frantically speculating as to whether Leaf would appear in Red's place. It was honestly quite relentless for a time.

Early reports are saying she doesn't appear.
Leaf truthers: "well, maybe if you play as a girl, she'll be there!"
Nope, doesn't happen.
Leaf truthers: "But maybe if you beat Red 10 times Leaf will appear!"
She doesn't.
Leaf truthers: "Perhaps it's a 1 in 1000 chance!"
It's not.
Leaf truthers: "She might be in the game code!"
She isn't.
Leaf truthers: "There might be DLC!"

On and on and on it went.

But my point is this: all games after Gen I have have had a choice of protagonist. So if one of them ever showed up, you'd have to declare which of them was the canon protagonist and which was the NPC rival.

You can see why Game Freak might be reluctant to do this. It brings a whole new trickiness: as well as having to choose a canon six Pokemon, you have to declare whether the boy or girl option is the "true" one. And that's a can of worms Game Freak doesn't want to open. So all of the games which have referenced post-Gen I protagonists have always been very careful not to suggest who among them was canon. Cynthia describes the protagonist of the Sinnoh games as "that trainer", leaving it nice and ambiguously open as to who it was. Steven vaguely mentions "all the trainers who give [him] tough battles", not specifying who. If no Memory Link is used in B2W2, N just talks aimlessly about "that trainer" as well.

Sometimes less is more, and I firmly believe that this is a case in point. As interesting as it is that the BW protagonist remains absent in B2W2, allegedly voyaging in a far-off region searching for N (and possibly getting into brand-new adventures) I don't expect or hope that we'll ever see it. It is far, far more interesting to have that be left unseen than it would be to show it - and it wouldn't really add anything to the overall Unova plot unless we ever get a third installment.

 

[Pikachu315111]

green_typhlosion

I see your point.

Maybe it's best to leave having the previous protags just interacting in Masters where they're allowed to have personalities (even Red was allowed to say a sentence of dialogue).

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Here's another reason you couldn't have previous protags show up: gender options. There was no choice in RBY, you had to be Red. So there was no-one else who could appear in Mt Silver. But I recall when HGSS came out people were frantically speculating as to whether Leaf would appear in Red's place. It was honestly quite relentless for a time.

Early reports are saying she doesn't appear.
Leaf truthers: "well, maybe if you play as a girl, she'll be there!"
Nope, doesn't happen.
Leaf truthers: "But maybe if you beat Red 10 times Leaf will appear!"
She doesn't.
Leaf truthers: "Perhaps it's a 1 in 1000 chance!"
It's not.
Leaf truthers: "She might be in the game code!"
She isn't.
Leaf truthers: "There might be DLC!"

On and on and on it went.

But my point is this: all games after Gen I have have had a choice of protagonist. So if one of them ever showed up, you'd have to declare which of them was the canon protagonist and which was the NPC rival.

Ironically, HGSS specifically had a very obvious and very elegant way to not only give the player the option of Red or Leaf, but also enhancing the theme of being stronger than your past self by personalizing the final battle to individual players.

Dual slot mode.

Instead of just being a collection of Kanto's greatest hits that past you may or may not have used in your adventure through Firered or Leafgreen six years prior, the final battle's roster could have drawn from your hall of fame data.

The Gen 4 games were really the only games where doing something like this would really work, since the DS was the only time you could have two game cartridges inserted into a single console. Other than I guess transferring Pokemon from one generation to another, the games are designed for use with a single console. There's a reason trade evolutions and trading in general are framed as collaborative events between two trainers and not just a single trainer sending stuff between copies of themself. Buying two copies of the game so you can trade with yourself has always felt like a "cheat" or otherwise not how you're "supposed" to engage with the system.

Though now that I think about it, memory link requires you to own two Nintendo DS consoles. Wow, that is really not optimal at all. Is every Gen 5 connectivity feature insanely scuffed and poorly thought out?

I guess that's my unpopular opinion to keep this post from being too wishlisty. Memory link was a poorly implemented feature because it requires the possession of multiple Nintendo DS systems.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I guess that's my unpopular opinion to keep this post from being too wishlisty. Memory link was a poorly implemented feature because it requires the possession of multiple Nintendo DS systems.

The one way this is possible is if you bought an older DS model a long time ago and later bought an updated one, like me who has both a DS Lite and a DSi because I upgraded to the latter some years after I bought my DS Lite, more specifically around 3 years later.

Maybe they were banking on many players owning both an older DS/DS Lite and the DSi from the fact that many probably upgraded their models, assuming they even kept their older DS (which I did). Either that or it was yet another ill conceived way of encouraging interactivity with friends amongst many of Gen 5's poorly thought out/short lived interactivity features.

EDIT: Or also having a 3DS in addition to a DS, which again I also have a 3DS ofc.

 

[Wukong]

No, what dilutes the Red fight is them using him over and over because he's the ONLY former protagonist you can battle as an NPC. Now, this probably wouldn't stop the reuses of Red, the only instance it possibly would may be for Sun & Moon (and even then possibly wouldn't prevent it cause 20th anniversary).

I also believe shoehorning Red battles into other games dilutes the significance of the GSC/HGSS fight. I don't think that opinion is mutually exclusive with believing that other protagonist fights would dilute the significance as well.

Also, if having other protags being battle-able in other games somehow takes away your enjoyment of Red being battle-able in HGSS, I gotta ask: Are you SURE you like the Red battle in HGSS (or Johto games in general)? Because it sounds like you actually don't, you only accept it because its the only former protag that can be battled, which isn't a good way to look at it.

I definitely enjoyed the Johto games, I don't think my opinion on other protagonist fights really affects that. I enjoyed them because of that underlying theme of proving underdog Johto can match Kanto as I pointed out earlier. As the protagonist I had a great sense of purpose. Despite the many criticisms I've levied against HGSS, just to steer this back on topic, my unpopular opinion is that I still have HGSS ranked above B2W2. The Red battle, in concept, is the perfect capstone to that sequel experience. Gen 5 could have handled this one of two ways: either combine the best of both BW and B2W2 worlds into a "Grey" version, or cap off B2W2 with a fight against the BW protagonist. I prefer the former but would have settled for the latter. Without either, I cannot consider B2W2 (which I still have fourth on my list behind Platinum, Emerald and HGSS) better than HGSS as sequels or games in general because it lacks something pretty significant in my book.

I think you're seeing things a bit too literally. The problem with the way they have presented Johto is that it didn't exist when they were making the first games. In-lore, the Gen I Pokemon in Johto are just as native as the new Gen II Pokemon (heck, they also have Gen II Pokemon appearing in Kanto including some exclusives (though that was probably a bad idea in the long run)). They're on the same landmass, they share the same shoreline, Pokemon from one are going to cross over to the other. It's not strange for half the Gym Leaders to be using Gen I mons because to them they are using native Pokemon, it's just out of meta the player saw that Pokemon a few years ago in the original Gen I games.

Johto isn't behind the times, its meant to be a counterpart to the more technologcial Kanto by focusing on traditions and history. Now, it could be because we're not native Japanese we miss a lot of these cultural reference, but to say they're "behind the times" is shortsighted to what they're trying to do with Johto. If Johto was just as technological as Kanto it would feel even more like just an expansion pack.

But yeah, a lot of Johto mons fall short. I mean, who uses Azumarill, Wobbuffet, Heracross, Sneasel, Skarmory, Donphan, Smeargle, Miltank, and Tyranitar? LOSERS, that's who. These Pokemon can't stack up to the likes of Butterfree, Beedrill, Raticate, Arbok, Wigglytuff, Vileplume, Venomoth, Dugtrio, Persian, Golduck, Victreebel, Golem, Rapidash, Farfetch'd, Dewgong, Hypno, Exeggutor, Lickitung, Tangela, & Seaking; all works of art and masters of battle. And how dare Johto defile Gen I Pokemon by giving them inferior evolutions like Crobat, Steelix, Scizor, Kingdra, & Blissey; without Johto they wouldn't exist and all their superior prevos would be better off for it!... This is sarcasm BTW. Sure, all Gen II Pokemon aren't winners, but neither are Gen I. Also should the number of Pokemon really be held against Johto? Okay, it has less Pokemon... so what? You wanted 150 new Pokemon and only them in the Johto? While I give crap to GF for sometimes not thinking ahead, I'll give early GF credit for thinking ahead about not only restraining the amount of new Pokemon but also using older Pokemon to fill out regional dexes cause there's nothing wrong with the older Pokemon so are vital tools.

But you're right about the Elite Four belonging to Kanto which is why it's located deep within Kanto, they don't accept the Johto Badges and they kept the Elite Four exactly the same as the Gen I games. Oh, wait, it's inbetween both Regions, they do accept the Johto Badges, and the only returning Elite Four members are Bruno and sorta Lance though he's now Champion; Lance who btw is from Blackthorn City which is located in Johto so the current Champion of the Indigo League is a Johtian (and the new "top" of the Elite Four uses the new Dark-type that was introduced in Gen II).

Also, could it also be a reason you feel Kanto is superior is because it was made the post game area thus every trainer there was given a higher level in order to keep up with the player? It's personally why I would like to see a game which starts out in Kanto but then lets the player go into Johto, to see how the Johto region adjusts to being the post game area that has to have the higher level trainers.

We'll agree to disagree on this point. I really don't see how Johto could be viewed as anything but inferior to Kanto, be it technologically, quality of Pokémon wise, or ownership of Indigo Plateau. Which is completely fine because it goes along with the theme I brought up earlier.

It's interesting, even the way Blue talks to you in the Johto games implies that he doesn't take you all that seriously being from Johto. Before battling him in HGSS his quote is: You're telling me you conquered all the Gyms in Johto? Hahaha! Heh! Johto's Gyms are that pathetic? Hey, don't worry about it. I'll know if you are good or not by battling you right now.". After defeating him he says: "This is the real power of Johto…".

You might think I'm reading into it too much, that that's just Blue being Blue, cocky and condescending. But interestingly, based on his game quotes Blue doesn't display that same level of disrespect for either the B2W2 protagonist at the PWT or the SuMo protagonist at the Battle Tree. It's like he's especially disdainful of you as the Johto protagonist, that he sees you as a younger sibling that will never be as good as the top trainers of Kanto like himself or Red. That second quote also kind of ties in nicely to the theme I brought up, of it being your job as the Johto protagonist to prove that Johto should be taken seriously.

Also, based on your first paragraph of this quoted section you're almost trying to argue that Kanto and Johto aren't separate regions, that there is no such thing as "Kanto Pokémon" or "Johto Pokémon" since they share the same landmass and shoreline. I disagree. Despite being right next to one another, they're two distinct regions and I think it's completely fair to look at the Johto gym rosters and wonder why they didn't use Johto native Pokemon, rather than rationalize it by saying the regions are right next to one another so cross pollination happens all the time.

I just want to note that you have an interesting perspective of this and I can see where you're coming from. It is certainly Johto showing they're as good as a region Kanto is... but I also feel that's done more through exploring the region and seeing what it has to offer than a hero of Johto coming to kick the butt of the previous protag. Because, he's a problem with that: we're no longer playing Red. Now he's just another NPC, controlled by the computer and, while made tough, was also made to lose just from the fact his Pokemon are locked. While if you lose to him you can go back and train, Red will never change his team, raise their levels, or change their Move. It's only a matter of time before you defeat Red. And, as I noted, the Champion is already a Johtian, if anything Johto has proven itself capable and its more Kanto is sort of stagnating. Though, once again, is it actually stagnating OR is it just that way to the player because we played the Kanto games so we know all about Kanto thus only the new stuff and what's going on with the characters has any novelty.

You're right, no other regions shares the dichotomy of Kanto & Johto, but that shouldn't mean characters from different regions can't interact with one another. Also when one of the core concepts of Pokemon is "being THE master" which seems to indicate being the strongest trainer, well, why wouldn't the other player characters go out looking for the other/future player characters?

I don't think traversing Kanto as the Johto protagonist is enough. Anyone can do that. And it doesn't matter that Red is an NPC and we are no longer controlling him. What matters is what he represents as a symbol, as the pinnacle of Kanto. Even the venue of the fight in HGSS atop Mt. Silver, alone, towering above everyone else, has thematic significance. Defeating him atop Mt. Silver makes a statement that completely dwarfs simply exploring the same region that Red did.

And to your second point, where would you draw the line? Unless you had a PWT like facility in every game to challenge all the previous protagonists, how can you justify putting one protagonist in one game versus another? Hoenn protagonist in Alola since they're both tropical? Or maybe Kalos in Galar since they're both based in Europe? They're all pretty weak connections. The only one that truly makes sense, in my opinion, is the Kanto protagonist in the Johto games for the reasons I've outlined.

 

[doipy hooves]

I guess that's my unpopular opinion to keep this post from being too wishlisty. Memory link was a poorly implemented feature because it requires the possession of multiple Nintendo DS systems.

You could use Memory Link to connect to the Global Link while it was up and enter a game sync ID to get the data using one system.
This part was actually pretty flexible as there's records of people using other people's IDs and also being able to resync with those different IDs.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

You could use Memory Link to connect to the Global Link while it was up and enter a game sync ID to get the data using one system.
This part was actually pretty flexible as there's records of people using other people's IDs and also being able to resync with those different IDs.

Alright, cool. I just looked up tutorials for how to memory link and all the ones I saw used two, so I just assumed that was how it needed to be done. It's good to know that at least this particular Gen 5 connectivity feature isn't terrible.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Without either, I cannot consider B2W2 (which I still have fourth on my list behind Platinum, Emerald and HGSS) better than HGSS as sequels or games in general because it lacks something pretty significant in my book.

Hey, I personally rank the original BW above B2W2. The problem with B2W2 is that it almost requires you to have played the original BW. Say what you want about Johto, but when I play a Johto game it at least feels like it can stand on its own. I stated my opinion more thoroughly when I compared Johto to Unova, but Johto I feel at the end of the day are their own games. The connection to Kanto is more of a bonus, and while you would enjoy more of the bonus had to play a Kanto game it's not really required to get what's going on. B2W2 is essentially a continuation of BW's story thanks to Ghetsis still running Neo Team Plasma and you start your journey because your rival asked you to help get his sister's Purrloin back which was stolen by Team Plasma two years earlier. Now together, BW and B2W2 I feel makes Gen V the best generation so far, and BW stands tall all on its own... it's just B2W2 which leans on BW maybe a little too much. Johto I never got a sense of that, certainly using it to prop itself up but never leaning back on it you don't know what's going on through context.

It's interesting, even the way Blue talks to you in the Johto games implies that he doesn't take you all that seriously being from Johto. Before battling him in HGSS his quote is: You're telling me you conquered all the Gyms in Johto? Hahaha! Heh! Johto's Gyms are that pathetic? Hey, don't worry about it. I'll know if you are good or not by battling you right now.". After defeating him he says: "This is the real power of Johto…".

You might think I'm reading into it too much, that that's just Blue being Blue, cocky and condescending. But interestingly, based on his game quotes Blue doesn't display that same level of disrespect for either the B2W2 protagonist at the PWT or the SuMo protagonist at the Battle Tree. It's like he's especially disdainful of you as the Johto protagonist, that he sees you as a younger sibling that will never be as good as the top trainers of Kanto like himself or Red. That second quote also kind of ties in nicely to the theme I brought up, of it being your job as the Johto protagonist to prove that Johto should be taken seriously.

As Blue got older he mellowed out. By the time of Gen II he was still young and egotistic, not helping was he personally was asked to run the Viridian Gym until they found a replacement so people still relied on him. Probably saw the Gen II protag as a "bigshot" from the other side of the lake and wanted to collect the Kanto Badges so decided to do is usual talking down to mess with them. From the sound of it he doesn't even know the Johto Gym Leaders.

In B2W2 he didn't outright insult the player but he did talk himself up. Being he was in Unova and not Kanto, could be Blue was more focused on representing Kanto, it's generally a frowned upon thing to go someplace and then insult it viciously. And finally in Gen VII, if he wasn't an adult in Gen V, he is now. He also heard of the player, the first Champion of Alola, likely from his 1st cousin twice removed, Samson Oak.

Despite being right next to one another, they're two distinct regions and I think it's completely fair to look at the Johto gym rosters and wonder why they didn't use Johto native Pokemon, rather than rationalize it by saying the regions are right next to one another so cross pollination happens all the time.

But they did. Also, technically by distribution, something I hinted at before, Murkrow, Houndour, & Slugma are strictly Kanto Pokemon. And depending on how you feel about Mt. Silver will determine where you think the only Pokemon found there fall: Misdreavus and Larvitar. Finally, in GS, Sneasel was found on Mt. Silver and Route 28 which was considered a Kanto route, though Crystal moved it to the Ice Caves (too bad HGSS didn't get the memo). So, yeah, it's kind of hard to say what Gen II Pokemon are truly "Johto native" when the regional dex includes plenty of Gen I Pokemon and several Gen II Pokemon are only found in Kanto.

BUT, let me fix the conversation here now: I think what you're trying to say is Johto EXCLUSIVE Pokemon. Not THAT'S a different discussion. Because, indeed, many of the Gen II Pokemon do tend to stick being in Johto. And, if they ever did a Let's Go Johto, I guess they could try. Looking back at an old Let's Go team roster I did, let's see what can be done:

Lets Go Johto Teams Take Two

Still going to follow the rules I set for myself back then: following the Let's Go layout for number of Pokemon (2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4)(5 for Elite Four, 6 for Champion), will do Rematch teams (5 for Gym Leaders, 6 for Elite Four + Mega), try to give them as unique a line-up as possible trying to focus on Gen II Pokemon, and to give myself more wiggle room will allow Regional Variants for all rematch teams (cause some desperately need that, though whether to also include the Galar Regional Evolutions I'll leave that up in the air). Would have expanded Mega beyond Elite Four but Pryce doesn't have a Mega he can use. Also Gym Leaders who share Types I did let them use Pokemon the other had just cause it was just easier that way (especially for Clair and Lance). Note their last Pokemon is their "Ace".

• Falkner: Hoothoot & Pidgeotto
  (REMATCH: Farfetch'd, Delibird, Dodrio, Pidgeot, & Noctowl)
  (NOTE: Yeah, unless I gave him a low-level Noctowl or change his Pidgeotto to a Pidgey, it would have to wait for his rematch to make Noctowl his ace. And I can't give him Xatu or Skarmory as Will and Jasmine need them. Also since his gimmick are bird Pokemon can't give him the non-bird Flying-types.
  
  
• Bugsy: Ledyba & Scyther
  (REMATCH: Yanma, Shuckle, Pinsir, Ledian & Scizor)
  (NOTE: Bruno needs Heracross to be his Mega Pokemon and I'm only allowing Gym Leaders who share a Type share Pokemon. Shuckle is too gimmicky, Ledyba & Ledian too weak to be an ace, just have to wait until Scyther evolves into a Scizor in the rematches to have a Gen II ace)
  
  
• Whitney: Aipom, Jigglypuff & Miltank
  (REMATCH: Furret, Blissey, Aipom, Wigglytuff, & Miltank)
  (NOTE: Also Whitney's Gym is now in a shape of a Jigglypuff instead of Clefairy)
  
  
• Morty: Misdreavus, Clefable & Gengar
  (REMATCH: (G-Corsola/Cursula), A-Marowak, Clefable, Misdreavus & Gengar)
  (NOTE: If you're wondering why Clefable, it's because there's not enough Ghost-types so gave him a Fairy, Clefable specifically because of the rumors Gengar is based on its shadow and it had to find a new home after taking it away from Whitney. But, yeah, sorry, when compared to Gengar, Misdreavus is just too weak to the ace)
  
  
• Chuck: Primeape, Heracross, Poliwrath & Hitmontop
  (REMATCH: (G-Farfetch'd/Sirfetch'd), Primeape, Heracross, Poliwrath, Hitmontop)
  (NOTE: Since Chuck & Bruno share a Type he can use a Heracross on his team. And it's easy enough to swap Poliwrath with Hitmontop)
  
  
• Jasmine: Forretress, Magneton, Skarmory & Steelix
  (REMATCH: (Perrserker/A-Dugtrio), Forretress, Magneton, Skarmory & Steelix)
  
  
• Pryce: Sneasel, Cloyster, Dewgong & Piloswine
  (REMATCH: A-Sandslash, Sneasel, Cloyster, Dewgong & Piloswine)
  
  
• Clair: Dunsparce, Gyarados, Dragonair & Kingdra
  (REMATCH: A-Exeggutor, Dunsparce, Gyarados, Dragonite & Kingdra)
  
  
• Will: Wobbuffet, Girafarig, Slowking, Espeon, Xatu
  (REMATCH: Wobbuffet, Girafarig, Slowking, Espeon, Xatu & Mega Slowbro)
  
  
• Koga: Qwilfish, Weezing, Ariados, Muk & Crobat
  (REMATCH: Qwilfish, Weezing, Ariados, Muk, Crobat & Mega Beedrill)
  (NOTE: We'll just say he left Janine is Tentacruel and Venomoth as he adds a few of Johto's Pokemon to expand his Poison expertise)
  
  
• Bruno: Hitmontop, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Machamp & Heracross
  (REMATCH: A-Golem, Hitmontop, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Machamp & Mega Heracross)
  
  
• Karen: Murkrow, Granbull, Ursaring, Umbreon, Houndoom
  (REMATCH: A-Raticate, Murkrow, Granbull, Ursaring, Umbreon, & Mega Houndoom)
  
  
• Lance: Aerodactyl, Gyarados, Tyranitar, Kingdra, Mega Charizard, & Dragonite

And to your second point, where would you draw the line? Unless you had a PWT like facility in every game to challenge all the previous protagonists, how can you justify putting one protagonist in one game versus another? Hoenn protagonist in Alola since they're both tropical? Or maybe Kalos in Galar since they're both based in Europe? They're all pretty weak connections. The only one that truly makes sense, in my opinion, is the Kanto protagonist in the Johto games for the reasons I've outlined.

Grimsley, Dexio, Sina, Cynthia, Wally, Anabel, heck even Red & Blue had no reason to be in Gen VII... and yet GF put them in anyway. They didn't even give Grimsley an excuse why he was there and away from his Elite Four duty, he just was. Dexio and Sina says for some reason the Kalos Legendary Zygarde suddenly moved to Alola with no further explanation. Anabel I think they were trying to connect her story to what Zinnia said in ORAS with their being an alternate Hoenn, a plot thread that didn't really need continuing but decided it would be a way to "show off" the idea being the Ultra Wormholes. Red & Blue were called to host the Battle Tree, a job that I imagine dozens of others could have done but here just for pure fan pandering. And Cynthia and Wally (who isn't even a Champion) are in the Battle Tree just cause.

Let's agree to disagree, it's out of our control anyway. If GF doesn't want to put the other protags in, which seems to be the case, they're not going to (they're doing perfectly fine characterizing them in Masters so there's kind of no need to). However, this door goes the other way: if they want to put another gen protag into the games, they will do so whether it makes sense or not. This actually sort of reminds me of the time that the Pokemon Company got famed manga illustrator Yusuke Murata to draw an art piece during the release of USUM. His drawing was of two protags battling Ultra Necrozma... and the protags for some reason were Brendan and Rosa. No real reason, they were just there. Now, imagine just because of that image that GF went "eh, why not" and added in Rosa and Brendan in as Battle Tree challengers (seriously, why was there no DLC for the Battle Tree for other characters?). It would be silly, but would also be a reason even if it was just marketing (besides, being the Battle Tree is a post game area, they could easily pretend what happens there was non-canon).

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Lets Go Johto Teams Take Two

Still going to follow the rules I set for myself back then: following the Let's Go layout for number of Pokemon (2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4)(5 for Elite Four, 6 for Champion), will do Rematch teams (5 for Gym Leaders, 6 for Elite Four + Mega), try to give them as unique a line-up as possible trying to focus on Gen II Pokemon, and to give myself more wiggle room will allow Regional Variants for all rematch teams (cause some desperately need that, though whether to also include the Galar Regional Evolutions I'll leave that up in the air). Would have expanded Mega beyond Elite Four but Pryce doesn't have a Mega he can use. Also Gym Leaders who share Types I did let them use Pokemon the other had just cause it was just easier that way (especially for Clair and Lance). Note their last Pokemon is their "Ace".

• Falkner: Hoothoot & Pidgeotto
  (REMATCH: Farfetch'd, Delibird, Dodrio, Pidgeot, & Noctowl)
  (NOTE: Yeah, unless I gave him a low-level Noctowl or change his Pidgeotto to a Pidgey, it would have to wait for his rematch to make Noctowl his ace. And I can't give him Xatu or Skarmory as Will and Jasmine need them. Also since his gimmick are bird Pokemon can't give him the non-bird Flying-types.
  
  
• Bugsy: Ledyba & Scyther
  (REMATCH: Yanma, Shuckle, Pinsir, Ledian & Scizor)
  (NOTE: Bruno needs Heracross to be his Mega Pokemon and I'm only allowing Gym Leaders who share a Type share Pokemon. Shuckle is too gimmicky, Ledyba & Ledian too weak to be an ace, just have to wait until Scyther evolves into a Scizor in the rematches to have a Gen II ace)
  
  
• Whitney: Aipom, Jigglypuff & Miltank
  (REMATCH: Furret, Blissey, Aipom, Wigglytuff, & Miltank)
  (NOTE: Also Whitney's Gym is now in a shape of a Jigglypuff instead of Clefairy)
  
  
• Morty: Misdreavus, Clefable & Gengar
  (REMATCH: (G-Corsola/Cursula), A-Marowak, Clefable, Misdreavus & Gengar)
  (NOTE: If you're wondering why Clefable, it's because there's not enough Ghost-types so gave him a Fairy, Clefable specifically because of the rumors Gengar is based on its shadow and it had to find a new home after taking it away from Whitney. But, yeah, sorry, when compared to Gengar, Misdreavus is just too weak to the ace)
  
  
• Chuck: Primeape, Heracross, Poliwrath & Hitmontop
  (REMATCH: (G-Farfetch'd/Sirfetch'd), Primeape, Heracross, Poliwrath, Hitmontop)
  (NOTE: Since Chuck & Bruno share a Type he can use a Heracross on his team. And it's easy enough to swap Poliwrath with Hitmontop)
  
  
• Jasmine: Forretress, Magneton, Skarmory & Steelix
  (REMATCH: (Perrserker/A-Dugtrio), Forretress, Magneton, Skarmory & Steelix)
  
  
• Pryce: Sneasel, Cloyster, Dewgong & Piloswine
  (REMATCH: A-Sandslash, Sneasel, Cloyster, Dewgong & Piloswine)
  
  
• Clair: Dunsparce, Gyarados, Dragonair & Kingdra
  (REMATCH: A-Exeggutor, Dunsparce, Gyarados, Dragonite & Kingdra)
  
  
• Will: Wobbuffet, Girafarig, Slowking, Espeon, Xatu
  (REMATCH: Wobbuffet, Girafarig, Slowking, Espeon, Xatu & Mega Slowbro)
  
  
• Koga: Qwilfish, Weezing, Ariados, Muk & Crobat
  (REMATCH: Qwilfish, Weezing, Ariados, Muk, Crobat & Mega Beedrill)
  (NOTE: We'll just say he left Janine is Tentacruel and Venomoth as he adds a few of Johto's Pokemon to expand his Poison expertise)
  
  
• Bruno: Hitmontop, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Machamp & Heracross
  (REMATCH: A-Golem, Hitmontop, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Machamp & Mega Heracross)
  
  
• Karen: Murkrow, Granbull, Ursaring, Umbreon, Houndoom
  (REMATCH: A-Raticate, Murkrow, Granbull, Ursaring, Umbreon, & Mega Houndoom)
  
  
• Lance: Aerodactyl, Gyarados, Tyranitar, Kingdra, Mega Charizard, & Dragonite

Why not Mega Ampharos for Lance?

You could use Memory Link to connect to the Global Link while it was up and enter a game sync ID to get the data using one system.
This part was actually pretty flexible as there's records of people using other people's IDs and also being able to resync with those different IDs.

Wow, I... never knew this was a thing. Huh.

We'll agree to disagree on this point. I really don't see how Johto could be viewed as anything but inferior to Kanto, be it technologically, quality of Pokémon wise, or ownership of Indigo Plateau. Which is completely fine because it goes along with the theme I brought up earlier.

It's interesting, even the way Blue talks to you in the Johto games implies that he doesn't take you all that seriously being from Johto. Before battling him in HGSS his quote is: You're telling me you conquered all the Gyms in Johto? Hahaha! Heh! Johto's Gyms are that pathetic? Hey, don't worry about it. I'll know if you are good or not by battling you right now.". After defeating him he says: "This is the real power of Johto…".

You might think I'm reading into it too much, that that's just Blue being Blue, cocky and condescending. But interestingly, based on his game quotes Blue doesn't display that same level of disrespect for either the B2W2 protagonist at the PWT or the SuMo protagonist at the Battle Tree. It's like he's especially disdainful of you as the Johto protagonist, that he sees you as a younger sibling that will never be as good as the top trainers of Kanto like himself or Red. That second quote also kind of ties in nicely to the theme I brought up, of it being your job as the Johto protagonist to prove that Johto should be taken seriously.

Definitely this. It doesn't actually even seem like there's that much traffic between the two regions; lots of NPCs in Kanto say things like "oh, you come from Johto, don't you? What's that like?" Whereas people in Johto talk about the events of RBY as though it happened there; Red's exploits are famous enough to be discussed by residents of Johto cities and towns, whereas no-one in Kanto has heard of Gold/Kris. Compared to Kanto, with its big cities and booming industry, Johto seems very much a quiet sort of backwater place.