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Metagame 2v2 Doubles

E4 Flint

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I'm still waiting to form/talk about my full opinion on Z-moves in 2v2 (I do think there is a problem there but I want to watch/play more games before gathering my thoughts completely), I think the notion that we shouldn't remove things that would change "diversity" by equating that simply with the total number of mons or anything else used in the meta is the wrong approach. Take the simple example of Wonder Guard in Hackmons which I feel is an apt comparison.

When there was a ladder, you could see a variety of mons such as Electabuzz, Magikarp etc running Wonder Guard and seeing usage by virtue of their type alone. You can't then say that there is so much diversity there; the "diversity" is artificial and derived from another element, in that case Wonder Guard. Similarly here, if it is true that Z-Moves are broken (again, jury still out on that which is what we're trying to figure out), you can't say that they should be allowed because it allows you to run Stunfisk with it. I'd argue that that is just a highlight even more of Z-moves being too strong if they can let mediocre mons survive on the virtue of their typing, base stat and access to a specific move allowing them to go all-in on one attack to compensate for their other shortcomings.
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
I don’t understand how Z-Moves can be worse or as good as other items and Pokémon but also be too strong and need to be banned. It’s like saying Tapu Fini is worse than Tapu Koko, but also too strong and overcentralizing, while at the same time Tapu Koko is better but isn’t too strong.
Not sure if serious here. The reasons are in the quoted text in my previous post. You're talking about megas, which I covered every bit about, and the explanation I provided should very much make the reason clear. And you're talking about choice items, which have been discussed to lenghts, and the reason has also been explained.
Except that there is a drawback to using choice, which is that you're choice locked, which can very much be exploited/punished in 2v2 Doubles. And choice can be used on all 6 pokemon in 6v6, unlike Z. Z's drawback, which is that you can only use it once per battle is extremely diminished in 2v2 Doubles, that's a clear difference. Being choice locked, if you think about it thoroughly, means that any poke that didn’t use choice band/specs is uniquely able to profit from Z due to the nature of sets that prefer not to use or don’t work with band/specs. Pokes such as the ones mentioned above, i.e. pokes that didn’t specialize in attacking, or pokes that setup. Even pokes that would previously use choice items, can now opt for setup + Z.

Extreme Evoboost isn’t OP because only Eevee learns it. Buginium Z isn’t good because Bug is a terrible attacking type. There is nothing broken about it.
Except for the multitude of reasons brought up, that apply to all Z (mostly attacks), regardless of type, as I referred to in my previous post.

The idea that a meta with, say, only Buginium Z allowed would somehow prevent you from using Hoopa-Unbound because Buginium users would rule the meta is just silly. I think banning some Z-moves is a terrible idea, by the way. It’s just an example, since you mention that Pokémon that don’t resist Bug would somehow be at a disadvantage if Bug Z-Moves were the only ones allowed.
As I said, Z does what it does as described in my analysis, no differently if it's the bug type, and the only pokes that wouldn't be as affected as much would be pokes that resist bug.

Basically I’m saying Z-Moves are balanced compared to other things. They are so good as to be the only option on certain Pokémon, like Landorus-T, but it’s not because Z-Moves are so good, it’s because non-Z-Move Lando-T is hot garbage.
They are balanced because they're the only option on some pokes? That's like saying Dark Void is balanced because it's the only option on Darkrai (which btw actually currently is the only option for Darkrai, Darkrai is barely ever seen in this meta).
And Lando-T "hot garbage"? In doubles? What?
It's one of the best pokes in doubles, with one of the best abilities (Intimidate), and access to great spread moves with Eq and Rock Slide, with a great electric immunity to pair with Discharge. This was all true even before gen7, in fact, it was one of the best pokes in 2v2 Doubles last gen. And even considering 1v1, Lando-T was still used a decent amount, and while not being as strong as the at the time most used (and some of which questionably allowed) pokes, it was certainly not anywhere near being "hot garbage". Do you even remember pokemon before Z?

Protect
You don’t have to run Protect for Z-Moves. You would run Protect anyway. That was the whole point of taking Dom’s stupid comment seriously. In 6v6, some Pokémon would be too OP, except Stealth Rocks make them not. There’s no cost to running Stealth Rocks, so these Pokémon are allowed to remain. There’s almost no cost to running Protect in 2v2.
Yes there is cost to running Protect in 2v2 Doubles, it's a meta that allows for a lot of fun gimmicks, which could very well turn viable, and Protect could easily be forgone in favour of something else, as also already mentioned.
...also saying that adding an effectively-required move isnt a teambuilding strain is literally just wrong, every mon has moves it could viably run over protect.
Not to mention, again, that Protect doesn't stop the Z move. And again, unless you're a psychic in real life you don't know the exact turn the opponent is going to use Z, not to mention which opposing poke is going to be using Z for that matter, not to mention targeting which of your pokes for that matter.

Any Pokémon taking 75% from a Z-Move through Protect would die anyway to a non-Z-Move.
In doubles you can use Protect on 1 poke while the other poke takes out or incapacitates the opposing threat.


That’s the exact opposite of what the characteristics say, and what the Perish Song ban did. The goal should be to have as many viable Pokémon and strategies as possible because that is more fun. You used Perish Song as an example of a decision that reduced the number of Pokémon that could be used, when it did the exact opposite. It vastly increases the number of usable Pokémon. That’s the whole point of banning it!

Why would anyone want to reduce the number of useful Pokémon, items, or moves in any metagame, let alone one with so many different options as 2v2.
Oh really? How acceptable would it be if there was an item that gave any poke the move Spore, there would certainly be more pokes that suddenly get use, and every poke has tools to deal with it "just use lum berry / goggles / sub / taunt". Increasing the number of usable pokes is not the sole reason for banning things, there are other aspects, as mentioned earlier, such as balance, healthiness, and overall skill.

And speaking of the "Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame";

Variety
The metagame should have the widest possible variety of playing options and strategies that are viable and competitive for knowledgeable players.

Explanation:
As they say, "Variety is the spice of life". And nowhere is that more true than in the world of gaming. Game makers discovered long ago that players crave diversity, change, and improvement. That's why most successful games are very broad, and are constantly adding new elements. For this reason, a high-quality metagame should be inviting to a wide number of people and personalities. By constantly striving for maximum variety, we can maximize the potential player base, which has the inevitable effect of increasing the number of good players, good strategies, and overall quality of competition. A varied metagame is fresh and exciting, and provides a constant source for investigation and discovery.

If we limit variety, or allow it be reduced, we effectively "shrink" all aspects of the metagame. A game with limited variety is boring to all but the most diehard participants. In a low-variety metagame, the best playing strategies become widely known and predictable, and participation wanes. For this reason, we should constantly strive for as much variety as possible. And, when limits to variety become apparent, the limits should be removed, if possible.

Issues and Concerns:
  • Too much variety is chaos.
  • Variety without quality is useless.
  • No one can master a game with too many options
  • "Wide" is sufficient, not "widest"
  • How knowledgeable should players be?
Other Comments:
This characteristic is typically underlying arguments about "centralization", or when people complain about the game being "boring".
If you read that (do actually read it), and read what I've been saying, you can see that it's in direct support of what I've been saying.
  • "For this reason, a high-quality metagame should be inviting to a wide number of people and personalities."
  • "In a low-variety metagame, the best playing strategies become widely known and predictable, and participation wanes."
  • "If we limit variety, or allow it be reduced, we effectively "shrink" all aspects of the metagame."
Right now 2v2 Doubles is not inviting to a wide number of ppl and personalities. The games are, as I said, too much into the "nuke or be nuked ASAP" type of battles, with Z spearheading, with not much marginal for other strategies, and thus not much marginal for corresponding people and personalities.
  • "Variety without quality is useless"
  • "good strategies"
That's where "The point is that you don't allow unhealthy elements and break the meta so that more pokes can become viable" comes in. We don't want an unhealthy and unbalanced meta for the sake of variety.

And speaking about this percieved variety you think Z brings, as I've already said, multiple times now, Z decreases the variety of other strats. The meta does not have more variety in viable stategies when Z is allowed.

motogp this ridiculously easy ban should have been done the first week last time 2v2 Doubles was omotm, 6 months ago. Instead the entire month went and nothing happened. We have a lot of issues to deal with, as mentioned in this post, and this is delaying the meta's progress. An omotm month is the perfect opportunity to deal with fixing the banlist. Are you gonna let another omotm month go wasted?
 
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Not sure if serious here. The reasons are in the quoted text in my previous post. You're talking about megas, which I covered every bit about, and the explanation I provided should very much make the reason clear. And you're talking about choice items, which have been discussed to lenghts, and the reason has also been explained.



Except for the multitude of reasons brought up, that apply to all Z (mostly attacks), regardless of type, as I referred to in my previous post.

As I said, Z does what it does as described in my analysis, no differently if it's the bug type, and the only pokes that wouldn't be as affected as much would be pokes that resist bug.

They are balanced because they're the only option on some pokes? That's like saying Dark Void is balanced because it's the only option on Darkrai (which btw actually currently is the only option for Darkrai, Darkrai is barely ever seen in this meta).
And Lando-T "hot garbage"? In doubles? What?
It's one of the best pokes in doubles, with one of the best abilities (Intimidate), and access to great spread moves with Eq and Rock Slide, with a great electric immunity to pair with Discharge. This was all true even before gen7, in fact, it was one of the best pokes in 2v2 Doubles last gen. And even considering 1v1, Lando-T was still used a decent amount, and while not being as strong as the at the time most used (and some of which questionably allowed) pokes, it was certainly not anywhere near being "hot garbage". Do you even remember pokemon before Z?



Yes there is cost to running Protect in 2v2 Doubles, it's a meta that allows for a lot of fun gimmicks, which could very well turn viable, and Protect could easily be forgone in favour of something else, as also already mentioned.

Not to mention, again, that Protect doesn't stop the Z move. And again, unless you're a psychic in real life you don't know the exact turn the opponent is going to use Z, not to mention which opposing poke is going to be using Z for that matter, not to mention targeting which of your pokes for that matter.


In doubles you can use Protect on 1 poke while the other poke takes out or incapacitates the opposing threat.



Oh really? How acceptable would it be if there was an item that gave any poke the move Spore, there would certainly be more pokes that suddenly get use, and every poke has tools to deal with it "just use lum berry / goggles / sub / taunt". Increasing the number of usable pokes is not the sole reason for banning things, there are other aspects, as mentioned earlier, such as balance, healthiness, and overall skill.

And speaking of the "Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame";


If you read that (do actually read it), and read what I've been saying, you can see that it's in direct support of what I've been saying.
  • "For this reason, a high-quality metagame should be inviting to a wide number of people and personalities."
  • "In a low-variety metagame, the best playing strategies become widely known and predictable, and participation wanes."
  • "If we limit variety, or allow it be reduced, we effectively "shrink" all aspects of the metagame."
Right now 2v2 Doubles is not inviting to a wide number of ppl and personalities. The games are, as I said, too much into the "nuke or be nuked ASAP" type of battles, with Z spearheading, with not much marginal for other strategies, and thus not much marginal for corresponding people and personalities.
  • "Variety without quality is useless"
  • "good strategies"
That's where "The point is that you don't allow unhealthy elements and break the meta so that more pokes can become viable" comes in. We don't want an unhealthy and unbalanced meta for the sake of variety.

And speaking about this percieved variety you think Z brings, as I've already said, multiple times now, Z decreases the variety of other strats. The meta does not have more variety in viable stategies when Z is allowed.

motogp this ridiculously easy ban should have been done the first week last time 2v2 Doubles was omotm, 6 months ago. Instead the entire month went and nothing happened. We have a lot of issues to deal with, as mentioned in this post, and this is delaying the meta's progress. An omotm month is the perfect opportunity to deal with fixing the banlist. Are you gonna let another omotm month go wasted?
It’s your meta, dude, not mine. Z-Moves in 2v2 are not something I want to spend time on.

When you ban Z-Moves, please just ban Mega-Mence and Deo-A like the same day. And say, we’re looking at weather, especially rain and decide on it in like 3 days or something. I’m not sure if it’s possible to combat weather without your own. I’m not sure about it, but it’ll become clear very quickly. Everything else should be manageable, right?
 
So I want to shortly share my opinion on Z-Moves in 2v2, but I am not sure if I want to get too involved in the discussion, since it might be too time consuming for the little time I have.

I have been playing around in 2v2 just for the last few days, and did a few friendly battles earlier. I do have quite some doubles experience, because I mainly play VGC.

In the few days I have been playing, I felt like Z moves barely had any impact on my matches. Yes, there have been some games where my pokemon would have survived if there was no Z move, but the same way of offensive could have been archieved with Choice Band/Choice Specs. I am fully aware that those have bigger downsides though. What I am trying to say, is that there are big nukes regardless.

Another reason why I think I haven't really had troubles, is that all of my teams used Snorlax, a pokemon that can tank basically any non super effective Z move, with a few exceptions, and then recover back up. Having some bulk on your team makes Z-moves less effective against you. This kinda limits options, but I still feel like enough bulk/defensive options are the way to go, because you can more effectively stop memes that run rampent in 2v2.

Z-moves have had a big influence on my teams, but without the main goal of doing big damage with the Z move. One of the most effective duos I have used is Mimikyu + Snorlax, with the main strategy being good use of Z-Destiny Bond, Belly Drum and Trick Room. Z-Destiny Bond pretty much guarantees that snorlax gets the boost, unless the opponent has 2 very fast pokemon or strong spread attackers. The next turn Protect Trick Room is a pretty safe play, because you either get trick room up for boosted snorlax, or you trade Pokémon, while snorlax is still healthy because of berry recovery.

Another thing I have been playing around with, is a combination of Mewnium Z Mew + Hoopa-U, to put Hoopa in psychic terrain. I believe this one is very straightforward, so I won't explain it any further.

Lastly, it is quite easy to discover which pokemon has or may have the Z-move, so you can cover for it in team preview.


So to summarize, I am fully aware of the downside Z-moves bring to the metagame, but I fully believe that there is enough counterplay that doesn't make them too broken. I also think it is a misconception that Z-moves are just there for big nukes. In my opinion, Z-Destiny Bond is one of the best uses of a Z move in this meta, and Z-Status moves should certainly be treated differently, because as far as I can see, non of the points that were made actually really apply to Z-status moves.


Final note: I mostly talked about my experience, so this are not really strong arguments, but I still think this are valuable thoughts, might try to put up an actual argument for or against them later
 
The daily tour took 10 minutes today. You can claim that speed record.

The biggest difference to VGC is that you have no backup, a losing match up is a straight loss in most cases.
Without backup winning odds are pretty much fixed and can only be influenced by Protect.

Seeing this meta makes me wanna play Triples Gen 7.
 
Hello, I'm kinda new to 2v2 doubles, but have had a lot of experience playing VGC and 1v1. I simply wanted to touch on a subject about a certain mon I have seen to be pretty good. This mon I'm talking about is Kyurem-B. I played a little bit of 2v2 when it was at its firstOM of the Month and wasn't too good at it. I decided to just hop on the ladder and had made a team centered around Kyurem-Black. I did pretty eh, topping maybe 1350s. The next day I was some what in touch with the meta and was actually doing pretty good. I eventually topped #4 on ladder. (This was in the span of about 30 minutes.) How did I top the ladder so quick you ask? Simple, click Kyurem-B. It was like an auto win vs terrain teams like Raichu-A and Koko, weather teams like rain (Swampert, Pelipper, Kingdra, Politoad, ect) and hail teams. (Ninetails, Sandslash-A, Abamosnow-M, Aurous, ect) While running a Z-Move it is able to simply nuke things. It can be an instant shut down to a dreaded TR+Intruct Oranguru. 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Oranguru: 364-430 (94.7 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO. All in all, this thing is super powerful and a serious metagame threat.

Capture.PNG


Team:
I don't really know what to ev for in 2v2 :/ Fini is really the only mon that gives this team trouble. Could be delt with by adding Fusion Bolt over Earth Power on Kyub.
Victini @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 140 HP / 140 Atk / 228 Spe
Adamant Nature
- V-create
- Fusion Bolt
- Final Gambit
- Zen Headbutt


Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Taunt


Smeargle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Follow Me
- Wide Guard
- Spore


Kyurem-Black @ Icium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Freeze Shock
- Outrage
- Earth Power
- Protect
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
Salamencite is now banned
motogp: Rumple
motogp: go make the megamence post
Rumplestiltskin: what post
motogp: For the megamence quickban
Reasoning from last time 2v2 Doubles was OMotM:
Mega Salamence HP 95 Atk 145 Def 130 SpA 120 SpD 90 Spe 120 BST 700

Banned last gen. Another case of a poke being way better than the rest. The cause is its amazing base stats combined with its great complimentary ability, base form ability, and movepool. The stats cause it to deal too much damage for how bulky it is. Its base form ability is one of the best abilities to have in doubles and in general, and it gets to apply the Intimidate debuff while also getting an amazing ability (Aerilate) that gives it an abundance of attacking options. Which adds more teambuilding strain due to the uncertainty of whether the Megamence is physical, special, or mixed, all of which require different answers defensively. Reasons for no ban include the Aerilate nerf this gen, and the introduction of the Tapu pokes. Lele was banned already though due to its ability, which boosts psychic type attacks proving to be too much. Koko and Bulu have the same attack boosting mechanics but for their respective types, which could prove to be too much as well.
...
I brought these up because while possible to deal with, you're still limited to just 2 pokes. 6v6 allows for bringing more pokes that can deal with different threats. That's why it's even more important in 2v2 Doubles that no poke is blatantly better than the rest.
It has since shown its significant superiority in the battles I've experienced and confirmed my suspicion about it.

motogp's reasoning:
Mega Salamence has been an everpresent threat in the 2v2 doubles metagame. It was unbanned from DOU in Sun/Moon(banned in ORAS) and stayed so with the main reasons being the Aerilate nerf (from *1.3 to *1.2) and the Jirachi ban.
Nevertheless, Salamence-Mega is ridiculously versatile since it has a variety of moves it can utilize. Its access to Double-Edge, Hyper Voice and Giga Impact/Hyper Beam make it an excellent wallbreaker, while it can also help its teammates by setting up Tailwind and use Fire Blast to counter Steel Types that may trouble it.
Thanks to its pre-mega ability being Intimidate, it can shut down strong Physical attackers that are quite common in this metagame. Fairy-types that counter Salamence (especially Pixilate users),while common, can be checked by Salamence's teammates thus making nearly any core with Salamence tough to beat.
Tagging The Immortal for implementation

motogp: oh and add that samples will be updates soon
 
Okay, I guess it's "hurrah" time now that Salamence-Mega is banned!!!

I promised motoGP I'll post this team on thread if I get top 10 at any time!



kyurem-black.gif
altaria-mega.gif
landorus-therian.gif
primarina.gif



Hunchback (Kyurem-Black) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 224 HP / 56 Atk / 72 Def / 52 SpA / 12 SpD / 92 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Ice Beam
- Icy Wind
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt

FluffyBirb (Altaria) @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 184 HP / 176 SpA / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Tailwind
- Protect
- Fire Blast

Landorus-Therian @ Groundium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 32 HP / 32 Atk / 252 Def / 192 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Rock Tomb

Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 200 HP / 172 Def / 40 SpA / 60 SpD / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Moonblast
- Protect
- Icy Wind


This team got me to #3 in the ladder, so it must be some good, right?
Screenshot_20180310-204614~2.jpeg


Have fun with this team, and only loophole I found it to be a weak to is Slush Rushers like Beartic and Sandslash-Alola + Hail Setter like Abomasnow-Mega or Ninetales-Alola.....
 
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Okay, I guess it's "hurrah" time now that Salamence-Mega is banned!!!

I promised motoGP I'll post this team on thread if I get top 10 at any time!



View attachment 105017View attachment 105018View attachment 105019View attachment 105020


Hunchback (Kyurem-Black) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 224 HP / 56 Atk / 72 Def / 52 SpA / 12 SpD / 92 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Ice Beam
- Icy Wind
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt

FluffyBirb (Altaria) @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 184 HP / 176 SpA / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Tailwind
- Protect
- Fire Blast

Landorus-Therian @ Groundium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 32 HP / 32 Atk / 252 Def / 192 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Rock Tomb

Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 200 HP / 172 Def / 76 SpA / 60 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Moonblast
- Protect
- Encore


This team got me to #3 in the ladder, so it must be some good, right?


Have fun with this team, and only loophole I found it to be a weak to is Slush Rushers like Beartic and Sandslash-Alola + Hail Setter like Abomasnow-Mega or Ninetales-Alola.....
When woa steals ur team and makes it worse...
I would advise metagross mega over maltaria, it handles ice much more succesfully while still dealing with fighting types, dragons, and you have rain handled elsewhere. There are other options too though, mega altaria is just not a good mega salamence replacement. Fini is also significantly better than primarina.
 
When woa steals ur team and makes it worse...
I would advise metagross mega over maltaria, it handles ice much more succesfully while still dealing with fighting types, dragons, and you have rain handled elsewhere. There are other options too though, mega altaria is just not a good mega salamence replacement. Fini is also significantly better than primarina.
Nope, Altaria pretty much covers all weather based team with Cloud Nine, can set up Tailwind, can handle KokoLucha, StalleSteela, and gets a MultiHit STAB in Hyper Voice, amongst others. And, with a small tweak in the team, I just realised that this team can handle Hail+SlushRushers

1) LandorusT+ Altaria handles MCharY+Chlorophyll users

2) Altaria+Primarina handles
Rain+SwiftSwimmers

3) Altaria+LandorusTherian handles SandStream+SandRushers

4) AltariaMega+LandorusTherian handles KokoLucha

5) Altaria+Primarina handles Hail+SlushRushers

The edited team:
Hunchback (Kyurem-Black) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 224 HP / 56 Atk / 72 Def / 52 SpA / 12 SpD / 92 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Ice Beam
- Icy Wind
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt

FluffyBirb (Altaria) @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 184 HP / 100 SpA / 224 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Tailwind
- Protect
- Heat Wave

Landorus-Therian @ Groundium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 32 HP / 32 Atk / 252 Def / 192 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Rock Tomb

Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 200 HP / 172 Def / 76 SpA / 60 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sparkling Aria
- Moonblast
- Protect
- Encore



I choose Primarina over Fini because 1) Primarina can Encore stall away, which Fini cannot, and 2) Primarina has more raw offensive power. If people want a more defensive Pokemon, they can opt for Fini
 
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Nope, Altaria pretty much covers all weather based team with Cloud Nine, can set up Tailwind, can handle KokoLucha, StalleSteela, and gets a MultiHit STAB in Hyper Voice, amongst others. And, with a small tweak in the team, I just realised that this team can handle Hail+SlushRushers

1) LandorusT+ Altaria handles MCharY+Chlorophyll users

2) Altaria+Primarina handles
Rain+SwiftSwimmers

3) Altaria+LandorusTherian handles SandStream+SandRushers

4) AltariaMega+LandorusTherian handles KokoLucha

5) Altaria+Primarina handles Hail+SlushRushers

The edited team:
Hunchback (Kyurem-Black) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 224 HP / 56 Atk / 72 Def / 52 SpA / 12 SpD / 92 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Ice Beam
- Icy Wind
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt

FluffyBirb (Altaria) @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 184 HP / 100 SpA / 224 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Tailwind
- Protect
- Heat Wave

Landorus-Therian @ Groundium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 32 HP / 32 Atk / 252 Def / 192 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Rock Tomb

Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 200 HP / 172 Def / 76 SpA / 60 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sparkling Aria
- Moonblast
- Protect
- Encore



I choose Primarina over Fini because 1) Primarina can Encore stall away, which Fini cannot, and 2) Primarina has more raw offensive power. If people want a more defensive Pokemon, they can opt for Fini
We went over this on PS, but:
Altaria doesnt do a good job of beating StalleSteela, and you have primarina for that anyway.
You don't actually beat chlorophyl sun.
You have to predict vs hail and Rain, even if you manage to predict the right mons.
Encore Prima doesn't beat stall, and the extra power doesn't gain any notable koes. If you really want the same ability to shut down status optiosn, taunt fini is going to be better for everything except for the rare booster who can actually gain something by setting up against your team, and you'd probably be better served by focus firing that anyway in most cases.

So this isn't all argument, I've been really liking
Charizard-Mega-Y @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Blast Burn
- Solar Beam
- Protect

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe
Modest Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder
- Protect

Pelipper @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Surf

Swampert @ Swampertite
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Protect

It's got quite a few problems, most notably in how there are two pairs but not much in the way of running alternate versions (Pelliper + Venu is an option but not as good as the other ones). Dual weather is quite effective against many teams, however, as the two have different counters and its been my experience that most players will try to cover both and end up klosing to both badly, rather than zeroing in on one and actually beating it.
 
So,I was asked to post my thoughts on Z-Moves.
I personally believe that Z-Moves aren't broken in 2v2 due to the abundance of Protect in doubles metagames.A well timed Protect can render a Z-Move useless,which could be used as an uncounterable argument in favor of keeping Z-Moves in the metagame.And while yes,Protecting on a Z-Move requires prediction,I can argue that it helps the metagame be more competitive for that exact reason.

Furthermore,while a Z-move definitely puts your opponent at a disadvantage,having one of their pokemon killed or left with low HP most of the time,it takes an item slot to do so.And even if we agree that the opportunity cost is minute,then we should also take into consideration that Z-Moves diversify the metagame by being usable on any pokemon.

The only Z-Crystal that I could see being banworthy is Kommonium-Z,due to obvious reasons such as the fact that it targets both foes (which is huge in doubles formats),that it bypasses Substitute (which is also a common move in Doubles) and that it boosts all of the user's stats in 1 turn which could help Kommo-o possibly sweep on its own.That all combined with Kommo-o's good bulk and access to the ability Soundproof which is extremely useful in Doubles make Kommonium-Z banworthy and I would definitely propose a ban.

As already mentioned,though,this does not apply for any Z-Crystal.
And now to counter some pro-Z-ban arguments.

Rumplestiltskin mentioned that Z-Moves,while offering variety to the metagame*,they reduce its quality at the same time.
I find that utterly wrong.Z-Moves increase the competitiveness of the metagame and do not reduce the potential for upcoming strategies.
Quoting "Characteristics of a desirable Pokemon Metagame."
  • Too much variety is chaos. Z-Moves while offering variety,at the same time balance out the metagame.I can imagine that a metagame without Z-Moves would force Taunt to be ran on every team or require an unban of some strong Uber wallbreaker in order to counter the annoying stall strategies that would come out.The metagame would be chaotic,as it would admittedly be full of weather abusers ,stall users and other strategies that would lower the quality of the metagame (Variety without quality is useless.)
Furthermore,quoting The Immortal:
Z-Crystals should only be banned if the alternative is banning a significant number of Pokémon. We tier Pokémon, not moves or items.
It is undeniably true that not every pokemon is broken with a Z-Crystal.I still have no written examples of specific pokemon that are broken with a Z-Crystal,but from my personal experience,if something were to be broken,I'd say Landorus-Therian,Kommo-o and Terrain/Weather abusers.So instead of mindlessly banning all Z-Crystals,we should look at the individual users and how each one affects the metagame.(incoming example about OHKO moves as counter argument)

In the end,it's not like Z-Moves are uncounterable or overcentralizing.Not to mention that good teams are limited to 1 Z-Move user due to flexibility reasons,so the argument that Z-Moves are slappable on every Pokemon doesn't stand.I think we should focus on conditions that boost the power of Z-Moves to high levels such as weather and terrains before banning Z-Moves themselves.

And as a last note:
"Z-attacks bypassing Protect reduces Protects usefulness in the meta, which allows more of just blindly and mindlessly attacking, with (unless mega stones) items such as Z-crystals and choice items."
In some cases,Choice items boost damage more than Z-Crystals.And about the factor that being Choice locked can be easily punished in a meta like 2v2,I think that everyone would agree that using a spread move is better than using a Z-Move in some,if not most cases.The spread factor is the exact reason I am proposing a Kommonium-Z ban in the first place.

Have fun with counter arguments,decisions on weather and terrains coming soon.
 

dom

Banned deucer.
a well timed rock slide beats ho-oh, so we should free ho-oh, right? a well timed earthquake from landot / whatever kills reshiram, free reshiram right? everything has counterplay, there is nothing without it. yes zmoves have counterplay in a somewhat common move, but that shouldn't be the reason to keep them in the metagame. motogp, it's pretty clear you're only keeping them in the metagame because 1v1 hasn't banned zmoves. their leadership is something else (awful) and you should think by yourself. "does he protect here or not" shouldn't be the entire 2v2 metagame, and adding 50/50s on top of an already 50/50 metagame is just quite frankly stupid. they also restrict and warp teambuilding etc etc
 
Last edited:

Osra

Charm Caster
is a Pre-Contributor
I'd like to point out that Z-attacks actually take power away from Protect, since they effectively just act like Feint with 0 priority if they're protected against, which means the Pokemon using Protect is left susceptible to further damage afterwards, despite the use of Protect.

Otherwise, I find myself agreeing with The Immortal in that the individual users should be banned, since Z-attacks are mostly limited to a handful of the viable mons in the metagame. That said, if Z-moves are really a problem throughout the entire metagame, even after possibly banning the current main abusers, then we can always just ban them instead and free the mons previously banned for using Z-attacks.
 
I'd like to point out that Z-attacks actually take power away from Protect, since they effectively just act like Feint with 0 priority if they're protected against, which means the Pokemon using Protect is left susceptible to further damage afterwards, despite the use of Protect.
Comparing using Z-move on Protect to Feint isn't exactly correct. Feint (and Hyperspace move) completely lift the effect of Protect and leave the target vulnerable to any moves on that turn whereas Z-move breaks through Protect, but the target still blocks any other moves with their own Protect.

Still, I do think Z-moves are too powerful for 2v2. Ironically, I never actually seen anyone used Kommonium Z in 2v2, but still.
 

Osra

Charm Caster
is a Pre-Contributor
Comparing using Z-move on Protect to Feint isn't exactly correct. Feint (and Hyperspace move) completely lift the effect of Protect and leave the target vulnerable to any moves on that turn whereas Z-move breaks through Protect, but the target still blocks any other moves with their own Protect.

Still, I do think Z-moves are too powerful for 2v2. Ironically, I never actually seen anyone used Kommonium Z in 2v2, but still.
Upon further inspection, this seems to be the case- my bad.
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
So,I was asked to post my thoughts on Z-Moves.
I personally believe that Z-Moves aren't broken in 2v2 due to the abundance of Protect in doubles metagames.
So you also believe that Ho-oh isn't broken in OU due to the abundance of Stealth Rock in 6v6 metagames?
The point is that the existance of obstacles isn't necessarily the only factor when determining whether something is broken. In this case, a multitude of factors have been brought up, and you chose to ignore the majority to make this kind of argument, for Protect, an argument that has been beyond debunked in the discussion.


A well timed Protect can render a Z-Move useless,which could be used as an uncounterable argument in favor of keeping Z-Moves in the metagame.And while yes,Protecting on a Z-Move requires prediction,I can argue that it helps the metagame be more competitive for that exact reason.
How is it an uncounterable argument when it already has been countered?
“But Rumplestiltskin, just use Substitute or Protect.”

... And unless you’re a psychic in real life, you don’t know the exact turn your opponent will use their Z-attack, meaning Substitute and Protect are not very reliable answers.

And speaking of Protect, due to Z-attacks’ ability to bypass Protect, that damage, even while cut to 25%, is still in some cases enough to do a number (talking 75% HP in some cases) on pokes at a type and/or stat disadvantage, while also doing a decent chunk when hitting neutrally.
Not to mention, again, that Protect doesn't stop the Z move. And again, unless you're a psychic in real life you don't know the exact turn the opponent is going to use Z, not to mention which opposing poke is going to be using Z for that matter, not to mention targeting which of your pokes for that matter.
...
In doubles you can use Protect on 1 poke while the other poke takes out or incapacitates the opposing threat.
You don't keep something broken in a metagame because there's a chance you can "predict" when the opponent will use it.
And after your post:
a well timed rock slide beats ho-oh, so we should free ho-oh, right? a well timed earthquake from landot / whatever kills reshiram, free reshiram right? everything has counterplay, there is nothing without it. yes zmoves have counterplay in a somewhat common move, but that shouldn't be the reason to keep them in the metagame. ... "does he protect here or not" shouldn't be the entire 2v2 metagame, and adding 50/50s on top of an already 50/50 metagame is just quite frankly stupid. they also restrict and warp teambuilding etc etc
And how exactly does having a "prediction" that in reality is essentially "click protect and hope you clicked it on the right poke, on the right turn, and still be left with the possibility to have your strategy ruined" help the metagame be more competitive? It doesn't.


And now to counter some pro-Z-ban arguments.

Rumplestiltskin mentioned that Z-Moves,while offering variety to the metagame*,they reduce its quality at the same time.
I find that utterly wrong.Z-Moves increase the competitiveness of the metagame and do not reduce the potential for upcoming strategies.
Utterly wrong? You make these statements without actually refuting my points for why Z reduces skill. And you say that Z does not reduce the potential for what I understand it as other strategies, while further along the post you justify Z moves staying for the need to keep other strategies at bay due to said strategies apparently being annoying and low quality.


Quoting "Characteristics of a desirable Pokemon Metagame."
  • Too much variety is chaos. Z-Moves while offering variety,at the same time balance out the metagame.I can imagine that a metagame without Z-Moves would force Taunt to be ran on every team or require an unban of some strong Uber wallbreaker in order to counter the annoying stall strategies that would come out.
So you are saying Z-moves balance out a what would be a stallfest? It's common knowledge that doubles in general is never going to be a stallfest due to double targetting, and it's even harder in a meta where you're limited to 2 pokes and there's no switching because you have less answers to threats and you can't utilize common stall strats such as Regenerator and Wish. Even ignoring that, we have the proof in 2v2 Doubles last gen, which was anything but a stallfest, with the average battle ending faster than an average 1v1 battle (where at the time stall was difficult to pull off), with stall being extremely difficult to pull off. Like what even are you talking about with every team being forced to have Taunt and unbanning an Uber to deal with stall? There was no mentionable stall going on last gen, no mentionable usage of Taunt, and there was no need to unban an uber to deal with it. Have you even played pokemon before Z?
2v2 Doubles was and is the exact opposite of a stallfest with the majority battles ending in 1 to 2 turns.


... the annoying stall strategies that would come out ... The metagame would be chaotic,as it would admittedly be full of weather abusers ,stall users and other strategies that would lower the quality of the metagame (Variety without quality is useless.)
So you're calling stall annoying and without quality. This could easily be seen as bias against a strategy that's difficult and takes skill to pull off in this meta. And so far from looking at this, showing a will to keep it down either due to bias or just being so out of touch with the meta thinking that it's stall that needed balancing out. And what are these other strategies that would lower the quality of the metagame? The meta is hostile to any strat beyond "nuke or be nuked ASAP", and it seems that you want it to stay that way, lacking in strategy options.
Referring once again to Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame:
Balance
All viable playing options and strategies should be as competitively balanced as possible, in relation to each other.


Explanation:
When any elements of the metagame are considerably better than others, it gives an intrinsic advantage to players that prefer or excel with the superior elements, and handicaps players who are most proficient with other elements. This skews the player base, and hinders the potential to develop new ideas and attract new players. In order to ensure widespread appeal, the metagame should not be unbalanced for or against any particular viable strategy or expert playing option, if it is reasonably possible to avoid.
...
Other Comments:
This characteristic is typically underlying arguments about something being "overpowered". Variety refers to the breadth of aspects of the metagame; Balance addresses the magnitude of those aspects relative to each other. While these characteristics are probably closely correlated, they are two distinct aspects and care should be taken when discussing the merits of each.
Variety
The metagame should have the widest possible variety of playing options and strategies that are viable and competitive for knowledgeable players.


Explanation:
As they say, "Variety is the spice of life". And nowhere is that more true than in the world of gaming. Game makers discovered long ago that players crave diversity, change, and improvement. That's why most successful games are very broad, and are constantly adding new elements. For this reason, a high-quality metagame should be inviting to a wide number of people and personalities. By constantly striving for maximum variety, we can maximize the potential player base, which has the inevitable effect of increasing the number of good players, good strategies, and overall quality of competition. A varied metagame is fresh and exciting, and provides a constant source for investigation and discovery.

If we limit variety, or allow it be reduced, we effectively "shrink" all aspects of the metagame. A game with limited variety is boring to all but the most diehard participants. In a low-variety metagame, the best playing strategies become widely known and predictable, and participation wanes. For this reason, we should constantly strive for as much variety as possible. And, when limits to variety become apparent, the limits should be removed, if possible.

Issues and Concerns:
  • Too much variety is chaos.
  • Variety without quality is useless.
  • No one can master a game with too many options
  • "Wide" is sufficient, not "widest"
  • How knowledgeable should players be?
Other Comments:
This characteristic is typically underlying arguments about "centralization", or when people complain about the game being "boring".


Furthermore,quoting The Immortal:
Z-Crystals should only be banned if the alternative is banning a significant number of Pokémon. We tier Pokémon, not moves or items.
It is undeniably true that not every pokemon is broken with a Z-Crystal.I still have no written examples of specific pokemon that are broken with a Z-Crystal,but from my personal experience,if something were to be broken,I'd say Landorus-Therian,Kommo-o and Terrain/Weather abusers.So instead of mindlessly banning all Z-Crystals,we should look at the individual users and how each one affects the metagame.(incoming example about OHKO moves as counter argument)
This point has already been addressed and trying to make it without refuting the counterpoints doesn't help your argument.
Where such power was once due to a selection of pokes with big offensive stats, pokes with access to devastating moves, and pokes with type advantages, it is now available to pretty much any poke without utterly horrible offensive stats (which is the majority of viable pokes, if not the majority of all pokes). Where such pokes were once utilized for their other traits, traits for strats such as setup, support, walling, or whatever else, they can now have a strong attack (as in strength comparable to pokes that specialized in attacking) in addition to their role/use. That alone makes for unfair gameplay as such pokes now in addition to their specialization also get to nuke. This scales down the entire system of pokemon archetypes. And due to the sheer power of Z attacks, even the system of type effectiveness is scaled down to almost nothing. Who needs type effectiveness when you can just use Z to nuke everything not immune? Edit: A more accurate description of the reality is that the battle heavily hinges on type effectiveness more than anything else, with Z still being able to nuke its way through type disadvantages to varying extents, moreso than regular moves ever could. Again keep in mind that even if the same applies to 6v6, the impact is tripled here. Now if Z-moves can provide such power to pokes that didn’t specialize in attacking, what do they provide to pokes that do? They make them unmanageable to deal with through any means other than outspeeding them and KO’ing them before they do the same to you.

“But Rumplestiltskin, why not just ban the pokes that you say become unmanageable due to Z-moves?”

Because it would mean losing a majority (if not all) of all offensive pokes at the very least, and the meta would still be unbalanced due to the massive power boost to everything (the unfair gameplay mentioned above).

In a meta where surviving is a massive struggle due to focus fire, and where power dominates, the addition of Z-moves, taking said power to a whole other level unbalances the meta too much and takes it even more in the direction of outspeed-and-KO ASAP type of battles. It utterly dumbs down the meta when not even type effectiveness or poke archetypes matter much any more.
And "mindlessly banning Z"? Seriously? You call it a mindless ban when it has been approached with regard to a multitude of different aspects?


In the end,it's not like Z-Moves are uncounterable or overcentralizing.
"Z moves aren't uncounterable" is referring to Protect, which has been addressed. And regarding "not overcentralizing", no one formulated any argument this way, so don't know why you're bringing up centralization. Overcentralization is not the only reason for ban. And yet this factor has been brought up and addressed in a way, with the point that Z takes the meta even further into the "nuke or be nuked ASAP" direction.


Not to mention that good teams are limited to 1 Z-Move user due to flexibility reasons,so the argument that Z-Moves are slappable on every Pokemon doesn't stand.
That doesn't refute the argument about Z being slappable on any poke, a player still has the possibility to put Z on any poke while making the team. And you even use it as an argument in a different part of your post.
Furthermore,while a Z-move definitely puts your opponent at a disadvantage,having one of their pokemon killed or left with low HP most of the time,it takes an item slot to do so.And even if we agree that the opportunity cost is minute,then we should also take into consideration that Z-Moves diversify the metagame by being usable on any pokemon.
That itemslot is still the same cost in 6v6, where the battle has a chance to balance the impact from Z out. And doing the diversity argument after it's been dissected and countered? If you've read the discussion so far, I don't see anything that refutes what's been said about the diversity/variety argument here.


And as a last note:
"Z-attacks bypassing Protect reduces Protects usefulness in the meta, which allows more of just blindly and mindlessly attacking, with (unless mega stones) items such as Z-crystals and choice items."
In some cases,Choice items boost damage more than Z-Crystals.And about the factor that being Choice locked can be easily punished in a meta like 2v2,I think that everyone would agree that using a spread move is better than using a Z-Move in some,if not most cases.The spread factor is the exact reason I am proposing a Kommonium-Z ban in the first place.
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. Are you trying to make a counterpoint to that being choice locked is punishable?
No offence, but it seems you've missed what choice lock being punishable in a meta where there's no switching means. Disable and to some extent Torment are the main reasons. And regarding using spread moves in order to not be locked into a non effective move against the other opponent, you're assuming that all moves have a spread move counterpart, and further, a lot of times Z allows pokes that previously had to damage their own partner with EQ to just use Z as a single target nuke, where they otherwise would have had to play around EQ hitting the partner, another factor that affects skill in the meta.
 
I've noticed 2 different strategies for teambuilding, either pick 4 pokemon that can work in different combinations, or pick 2 pairs of pokemon that work together and only pick one of those two pairs. I personally found picking two pairs to work better because you can get more powerful combos, and you can have both a mega and a z crystal on both pairs of pokemon, while those who want to be able to pick any 2 of their four pokemon are limited to one mega and one z crystal total. I also tried a team with mega blastoise, kyurem black, mega aerodactyl , and mimikyu, where I picked one mega and one non mega each game, allowing for 4 combinations to pick from, while not limiting myself to a single mega and z move, which I found works well.
 
In order to prevent the need for a mass-ban of Z-move abusers,the 2v2 council has decided to BAN all Z-Crystals from 2v2 until further discussion.
We simply deemed that the users were too many to rely on individual bans,so instead Z-Crystals has been banned as a whole.If you want more information as to why Z-Moves were banned,feel free to read the posts above.

Together with that,we have decided to ban Final Gambit due to the fact that it is extremely unhealthy for the metagame,since turning the match into an 1v1 could ruin a lot of strategies that people may have put thought into.It is entirely different than focus firing since it only requires one of the pokemon to attack.Common users of Final Gambit include Victini and Accelgor.The problem was bigger at the time Focus Sash was banned,because the only reliable counters to Final Gambit were Ghost-types,Pokemon with higher than 100/80 HP,Protect and Priority.And while most of them are common,Protect turns the game into a 50/50 unless both foes Protect,in which case the Final Gambit user is free to use another move like Trick,and priority can be simply blocked by Quick Guard.Pokemon with more than 100 HP are by no means abundant in a metagame where one of the best strategies is to hit hard and fast.


Feel free to debate those decisions below.
 
In order to prevent the need for a mass-ban of Z-move abusers,the 2v2 council has decided to BAN all Z-Crystals from 2v2 until further discussion.
We simply deemed that the users were too many to rely on individual bans,so instead Z-Crystals has been banned as a whole.If you want more information as to why Z-Moves were banned,feel free to read the posts above.

Together with that,we have decided to ban Final Gambit due to the fact that it is extremely unhealthy for the metagame,since turning the match into an 1v1 could ruin a lot of strategies that people may have put thought into.It is entirely different than focus firing since it only requires one of the pokemon to attack.Common users of Final Gambit include Victini and Accelgor.The problem was bigger at the time Focus Sash was banned,because the only reliable counters to Final Gambit were Ghost-types,Pokemon with higher than 100/80 HP,Protect and Priority.And while most of them are common,Protect turns the game into a 50/50 unless both foes Protect,in which case the Final Gambit user is free to use another move like Trick,and priority can be simply blocked by Wide Guard.Pokemon with more than 100 HP are by no means abundant in a metagame where one of the best strategies is to hit hard and fast.


Feel free to debate those decisions below.
wide guard doesn't protect against prio, that's quick guard
sorry for oneliner
 

UnleashOurPassion

You can't stop me
is a Battle Simulator Driver
I'm not sure I'm on board with the final gambit ban.

Seriously though who thought it was a good idea to make protect block its effect >.<
 
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Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
In order to prevent the need for a mass-ban of Z-move abusers,the 2v2 council has decided to BAN all Z-Crystals from 2v2 until further discussion.
We simply deemed that the users were too many to rely on individual bans...
Just to rule out any misconceptions, my reasoning goes beyond just preventing a mass-ban of pokes, which by the way still wouldn't fix the problem. To put it simply, Z-moves as a whole don't belong in 2v2 Doubles, with full details in posts pages 3-6.
 

Osra

Charm Caster
is a Pre-Contributor
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 2 | Tapu Koko | 17.02616% | 7066 | 11.694% | 1542 | 15.300% |
| 5 | Excadrill | 11.81648% | 3318 | 5.491% | 1139 | 11.301% |
| 7 | Landorus-Therian | 11.04920% | 4611 | 7.631% | 1089 | 10.805% |
| 8 | Kyurem-Black | 10.37991% | 3009 | 4.980% | 748 | 7.422% |

| 10 | Deoxys-Attack | 8.32706% | 3355 | 5.552% | 786 | 7.799% |
| 11 | Pelipper | 8.05366% | 3425 | 5.668% | 631 | 6.261% |

| 13 | Mimikyu | 7.06676% | 4126 | 6.828% | 1106 | 10.974% |
| 16 | Tapu Bulu | 6.15378% | 2538 | 4.200% | 461 | 4.574% |
| 17 | Raichu-Alola | 6.09172% | 2633 | 4.357% | 722 | 7.164% |
| 18 | Aegislash | 5.66956% | 2787 | 4.612% | 722 | 7.164% |

| 24 | Garchomp | 4.41338% | 2507 | 4.149% | 600 | 5.953% |
| 26 | Talonflame | 3.61898% | 1397 | 2.312% | 247 | 2.451% |
| 27 | Venusaur | 3.58692% | 2375 | 3.930% | 838 | 8.315% |

| 30 | Snorlax | 3.12295% | 2779 | 4.599% | 1048 | 10.399% |
| 31 | Kingdra | 3.09087% | 1401 | 2.319% | 367 | 3.641% |
| 32 | Zapdos | 2.99949% | 1432 | 2.370% | 424 | 4.207% |

| 34 | Heatran | 2.96263% | 1612 | 2.668% | 377 | 3.741% |
| 46 | Pheromosa | 2.46052% | 1254 | 2.075% | 273 | 2.709% |
| 47 | Greninja | 2.44852% | 1801 | 2.981% | 420 | 4.167% |
| 48 | Lilligant | 2.44170% | 1669 | 2.762% | 421 | 4.177% |
| 49 | Weavile | 2.40048% | 1156 | 1.913% | 318 | 3.155% |
| 51 | Mew | 2.30819% | 1495 | 2.474% | 419 | 4.157% |

| 53 | Tapu Fini | 2.12262% | 1328 | 2.198% | 337 | 3.344% |
| 59 | Scrafty | 1.72388% | 998 | 1.652% | 281 | 2.788% |
| 60 | Tyranitar | 1.64425% | 1249 | 2.067% | 299 | 2.967% |
| 61 | Dragonite | 1.62323% | 1159 | 1.918% | 330 | 3.274% |

| 68 | Blaziken | 1.30807% | 560 | 0.927% | 155 | 1.538% |
| 69 | Zygarde | 1.30670% | 658 | 1.089% | 182 | 1.806% |
| 70 | Sandslash-Alola | 1.29887% | 637 | 1.054% | 203 | 2.014% |

| 72 | Slowbro | 1.17900% | 321 | 0.531% | 44 | 0.437% |
| 73 | Volcanion | 1.17825% | 833 | 1.379% | 240 | 2.381% |
| 78 | Gyarados | 1.11775% | 702 | 1.162% | 202 | 2.004% |

| 81 | Bronzong | 1.08602% | 729 | 1.206% | 160 | 1.588% |
| 83 | Drampa | 1.06406% | 481 | 0.796% | 167 | 1.657% |
| 84 | Rotom-Wash | 1.01659% | 703 | 1.163% | 194 | 1.925% |
| 85 | Gigalith | 0.99469% | 923 | 1.527% | 224 | 2.223% |

| 91 | Muk-Alola | 0.91930% | 836 | 1.384% | 173 | 1.717% |
| 99 | Deoxys-Defense | 0.73078% | 483 | 0.799% | 99 | 0.982% |
| 100 | Araquanid | 0.71739% | 439 | 0.727% | 108 | 1.072% |

These are all the pokemon of the top 100 in usage statistics that had a total of at least 10% usage of Z-Crystals across all their items, or summed up to at least 10% with multiple Z-Crystals, such as with Greninja. 39 Pokemon out of the top 100. I will admit that the list may be a bit skewed, since this is the usage of August 2017, which had Focus Sash, Salamencite, Marshadow, and Lele all allowed, but even then, it's still the only resource we have to go off of.

Now, let's remove any and all entries that only use Z-Moves in the same way you would use the Pokemon if it had a Choice item, Life Orb, or some other alternative item instead.
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 13 | Mimikyu | 7.06676% | 4126 | 6.828% | 1106 | 10.974% |
| 16 | Tapu Bulu | 6.15378% | 2538 | 4.200% | 461 | 4.574% |
| 17 | Raichu-Alola | 6.09172% | 2633 | 4.357% | 722 | 7.164% |

| 24 | Garchomp | 4.41338% | 2507 | 4.149% | 600 | 5.953% |
| 26 | Talonflame | 3.61898% | 1397 | 2.312% | 247 | 2.451% |
| 27 | Venusaur | 3.58692% | 2375 | 3.930% | 838 | 8.315% |

| 30 | Snorlax | 3.12295% | 2779 | 4.599% | 1048 | 10.399% |
| 32 | Zapdos | 2.99949% | 1432 | 2.370% | 424 | 4.207% |
| 48 | Lilligant | 2.44170% | 1669 | 2.762% | 421 | 4.177% |
| 51 | Mew | 2.30819% | 1495 | 2.474% | 419 | 4.157% |

| 53 | Tapu Fini | 2.12262% | 1328 | 2.198% | 337 | 3.344% |
| 61 | Dragonite | 1.62323% | 1159 | 1.918% | 330 | 3.274% |
| 69 | Zygarde | 1.30670% | 658 | 1.089% | 182 | 1.806% |
| 78 | Gyarados | 1.11775% | 702 | 1.162% | 202 | 2.004% |

| 81 | Bronzong | 1.08602% | 729 | 1.206% | 160 | 1.588% |
| 99 | Deoxys-Defense | 0.73078% | 483 | 0.799% | 99 | 0.982% |

16 Pokemon.

The reason why the 23 pokemon are being removed from the list is because they only emulate the process of optimal move selection, ie Thunderbolt>Thundershock. The Pokemon that stayed are all either those that are capable of doing something they otherwise couldn't without Z-Moves, or are capable of setting up in order to launch a nuclear attack that far surpasses anything the pokemon would otherwise be capable of. This list also abided by the ruling of a setup move being at least 5% usage among all of their most used moves. Raichu is the exception, since it has the added utility of Stoked Sparksurfer having a 100% Paralysis rate.

Now, let's remove any and all Pokemon that don't use their Z-Moves for the sake of attacking, since the argument for their ban is about getting OHKO's or dealing big damage with Z-Moves.
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 13 | Mimikyu | 7.06676% | 4126 | 6.828% | 1106 | 10.974% |
| 16 | Tapu Bulu | 6.15378% | 2538 | 4.200% | 461 | 4.574% |
| 17 | Raichu-Alola | 6.09172% | 2633 | 4.357% | 722 | 7.164% |

| 24 | Garchomp | 4.41338% | 2507 | 4.149% | 600 | 5.953% |
| 26 | Talonflame | 3.61898% | 1397 | 2.312% | 247 | 2.451% |
| 27 | Venusaur | 3.58692% | 2375 | 3.930% | 838 | 8.315% |

| 30 | Snorlax | 3.12295% | 2779 | 4.599% | 1048 | 10.399% |
| 32 | Zapdos | 2.99949% | 1432 | 2.370% | 424 | 4.207% |
| 48 | Lilligant | 2.44170% | 1669 | 2.762% | 421 | 4.177% |
| 51 | Mew | 2.30819% | 1495 | 2.474% | 419 | 4.157% |

| 53 | Tapu Fini | 2.12262% | 1328 | 2.198% | 337 | 3.344% |
| 61 | Dragonite | 1.62323% | 1159 | 1.918% | 330 | 3.274% |
| 69 | Zygarde | 1.30670% | 658 | 1.089% | 182 | 1.806% |
| 78 | Gyarados | 1.11775% | 702 | 1.162% | 202 | 2.004% |
| 99 | Deoxys-Defense | 0.73078% | 483 | 0.799% | 99 | 0.982% |

rip Bronzong 15 Pokemon, of which only 6 are even in the "OU" range of usage. They don't really have the usage to be overcentralizing, do they? In fact, let's go a step further and remove anything that makes use of an offensive terrain or weather, just for the sake of clarity.

+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 13 | Mimikyu | 7.06676% | 4126 | 6.828% | 1106 | 10.974% |
| 24 | Garchomp | 4.41338% | 2507 | 4.149% | 600 | 5.953% |
| 26 | Talonflame | 3.61898% | 1397 | 2.312% | 247 | 2.451% |

| 30 | Snorlax | 3.12295% | 2779 | 4.599% | 1048 | 10.399% |
| 32 | Zapdos | 2.99949% | 1432 | 2.370% | 424 | 4.207% |

| 53 | Tapu Fini | 2.12262% | 1328 | 2.198% | 337 | 3.344% |
| 61 | Dragonite | 1.62323% | 1159 | 1.918% | 330 | 3.274% |
| 69 | Zygarde | 1.30670% | 658 | 1.089% | 182 | 1.806% |
| 78 | Gyarados | 1.11775% | 702 | 1.162% | 202 | 2.004% |
| 99 | Deoxys-Defense | 0.73078% | 483 | 0.799% | 99 | 0.982% |

10 Pokemon. The other 5 were removed due to the factor of offensive terrains and weather being a more prominent issue than Z-Moves are.
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 2 | Tapu Koko | 17.02616% | 7066 | 11.694% | 1542 | 15.300% |
| 4 | Tyranitar-Mega | 12.70401% | 4058 | 6.716% | 668 | 6.628% |
| 6 | Charizard-Mega-Y | 11.41033% | 6444 | 10.664% | 1310 | 12.998% |
| 11 | Pelipper | 8.05366% | 3425 | 5.668% | 631 | 6.261% |

Not only do these all have centralizing amounts of usage, they ALSO all have more usage than the most used Pokemon that could actually be an issue with Z-Moves at its disposal, Mimikyu.

Let's say we add Mew back to the list, since it takes a turn to get Psychic Terrain in effect with Genesis Supernova, as well as Kommo-o, who wasn't really high in the usage, due to the stats predating USUM.
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| ?? | Kommo-o
| 13 | Mimikyu | 7.06676% | 4126 | 6.828% | 1106 | 10.974% |
| 24 | Garchomp | 4.41338% | 2507 | 4.149% | 600 | 5.953% |
| 26 | Talonflame | 3.61898% | 1397 | 2.312% | 247 | 2.451% |

| 30 | Snorlax | 3.12295% | 2779 | 4.599% | 1048 | 10.399% |
| 32 | Zapdos | 2.99949% | 1432 | 2.370% | 424 | 4.207% |
| 51 | Mew | 2.30819% | 1495 | 2.474% | 419 | 4.157% |
| 53 | Tapu Fini | 2.12262% | 1328 | 2.198% | 337 | 3.344% |
| 61 | Dragonite | 1.62323% | 1159 | 1.918% | 330 | 3.274% |
| 69 | Zygarde | 1.30670% | 658 | 1.089% | 182 | 1.806% |
| 78 | Gyarados | 1.11775% | 702 | 1.162% | 202 | 2.004% |
| 99 | Deoxys-Defense | 0.73078% | 483 | 0.799% | 99 | 0.982% |

I put Kommo-o at the top just to give it the benefit of the doubt, since we don't know what usage it has with Kommonium right now. Regardless, this leaves us with just 12 Pokemon that strictly abuse Z-Moves that could possibly be problematic to the health of the metagame, only 4 of which even have "OU" range usage, let alone enough usage to overcentralize the metagame.

Besides my claim of weather and terrains being more prominent of an issue than Z-Moves, all of this is simply for the sake of reporting the impact that Z-Moves have on the metagame. From here, I'll leave it in the hands of the 2v2 leadership, and overall OM leader, The Immortal, to decide what to do with this knowledge.

Side note: Here are the links to the usage statistics I used to put this big thing together:
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2017-08/gen72v2doubles-1630.txt
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2017-08/moveset/gen72v2doubles-1630.txt
 

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