Are unorthodox items viable?

I believe that unorthodox or uncommon items can really help accomplish specific goals as you've already said. Imo the best unorthodox items are ones that can be used to bluff choice items. The best example I can think of is Gouki's Tyranitar, which has Expert Belt (which is arguably not unorthodox, but Muscle Band could work too!) -- Comes into a Wish Blissey and Pursuits as they protect. Thinking you're stuck the opponent will usually stay in, then you Superpower to defeat the Blissey.

Outside of accomplishing specific goals though I'm not sure if unorthodox items have much use. Usually, items like Life Orb help Pokemon (sweepers) do more generally.

This is an interesting subject :)
 
I think unorthodox items could work very well in tournaments where one match can decide it all and using an unorthodox item can give you that short term high reward needed to get through to the next round. However on the ladder I think that going with the standard, consistent item is probably better, as over a long period of time this will probably even out as the best item. This especially applies to less played tiers such as UBERs where you may face one person numerous times in a row and the surprise will be gone the next time you play them. What I am trying to say is on the ladder, don't use items simply for the 'surprise' factor as consistency is really what you are aiming for here.
 
One of my favorites and a team staple is Shuca Heatran. I'm not a huge fan of most choice pokemon, and the survival against other Heatran and Swampert, as well as the utility of bluffing a Choice Scarf, outweighs the power a LO would give.
 
Garchomp is a fantastic example of why this kind of thinking should be encouraged. For the first year of DP play, Yache Berry wasn't even listed in the analysis and it wasn't until early 2008 that it even made its way into Other Options. Eventually it caught on and as we all know, YacheChomp was the set that sealed Garchomp's banishment to Uber. It makes you wonder if perhaps there's another Pokemon out there just waiting for people to give him that specific 'unorthodox' item to push him to the next level.
 
Very interesting topic, i for one have been using a less than orthodox item on my
Lucario. Either out of laziness or my love for innovation i found that when i pulled out my new Lucario it had Leftovers on it. Ive grown to love my item choice. The leftovers allow it to set up possibly 2 SDs on a host of foes including Bulky Gyarados a Bullet Punching Scizor and Latias with an attack drop.

I used a Dragon Plate Latios in the Latios test. The set was Sub/Surf/Dragon Pulse/Recover it was pretty beastly and the lack of Life Orb damage for a simliar effect was very nice.

Although not specifically unique I have been using a Physical Mence with DD and a Life Orb. I almost never get a DD but the raw damage from an Outrage is fearsome (im seriously considering its almost better than MixMence) - easily doing 70% to even Suicune who with a CM takes a reduced amount from DM.

Definitely food for thought.
 
I'm a big fan of Shucatran, best lure ever ^_^. Regarding ShucaLuc, it isn't a fail safe to beat Lucario's counters. If the opponent's Lucario counter is a Heatran or Rotom, there's no point in the Shuca Berry, is there? Iron Plate is very viable on Scizor, particularly the Bulky SD varieties. Bullet Punch boosted by the plate is about as powerful as if Scizor were Banded, allowing you to maintain an illusion. Occa Berry and Shed Shell on Scizor may also be viable.
 
For a long time, I used Babiri Berry on my DD Tyranitar (and still do) alongside Fire Punch. It basically makes the best Scizor lure/kill in the entire game, and also works against some things such as Metagross and Jirachi (60% of the time for the latter, I suppose).

In fact, since I posted the set in the NP: Latias thread a couple months back, it got popularity, so I guess it's not quite as unorthodox as it seems...

| Tyranitar | Item | Babiri Berry | 14.2 |

Still, it's a good example of an unorthodox item used to defeat a common counter and open up for a sweep either with the Pokemon or with something else on your team.
 
i love running unothodox items,
in my old team, using ninjask to pass speed to metagross and opening that agility slot allowed 4 attacking moves, so why bother with leftovers when shell bell does 12%+
on my main team.
been running LO heatran but timid as a great lure for the ever rising gyarados which is OHKO with HP electric
occa scizor - I DO USE, not 100% every fire move survival but survives some key unstabbed fire moves to do some damage, it can even survive HP fire from magnazone then OHKO with brick break
wacan Gyarados - underated all i can say, a great one for DD especially as you can survive that hit to then outspeed the offending poke.
 
Excellent topic.

One thing I like to use in OU is MonoCM Latias with Dragon Fang over Lefties. (With a spread of 72 HP, 184 Sp. Atk, 252 Speed IIRC.) Mainly because the standard MonoCM set cannot 2HKO Blissey without the aid of Toxic Spikes. (And MonoCM Latias is just begging for Forry to come in and spin.) With Dragon Fang and the Special Attack EVs, +6 Dragon Pulse will always 2HKO Blissey, easily opening a sweep for another special sweeper on your team. The extra power I feel is also much more helpful then the small amount of extra bulk Lefties provides.

Also, I feel that the best application of unorthodox items is for Choice Item bluffing Purposes. (I.E. Physical Mix Palkia) Using these kinds of items to open up sweeps is a great idea and just works really well.

Originally Posted by Fat phalanx
wacan Gyarados - underated all i can say, a great one for DD especially as you can survive that hit to then outspeed the offending poke.
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Wacan DD Gyarados sounds like a neat idea too...
 
I have a Bulky SD Scizor on my team and it uses an Iron Plate. It's really easy to bluff a choice item with it. My favorite moment was when me and my opponent were down to our last Pokemon. I had Scizor and he had Swampert. He said "GG" early but I simply Roosted and Swords Danced in his face and won with Bullet Punch.

I also used to have an Expert Belt Tyranitar on my Jirachi team. It basically used the standard CB Tyranitar set so whenever I would Crunch/Pursuit Latias, they would send in Lucario and try to Swords Dance. Instead they were met by a lovely OHKO from Earthquake.

The bluff-TTar that uses Flamethrower and/or Ice Beam with Expert Belt is also brillant since it helps take out Gliscor and Scizor that love to switch into Tyranitar. This effectively removes Lucario and Latias' most common counters, allowing them to sweep easier.

Wacan Gyarados also has a lot of potential, kinda like what Yache Berry did for Garchomp.
 
Deschain said:
hmm i like the idea of that, but Duggy misses out on so many KOs wit hthe drop from CB to LO already. =/
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THIS, this right here, is why you need to TEST A SET AND PLAY AGAINST IT to know how effective it really is.

I run SoftSand Trio ;). He says FU to Roserade, Moltress, Missmaggy, Rotom, and Chansey. I know this because he is a staple on a majority of my teams. As well have played against one.
 
Exclamation Point said:
THIS, this right here, is why you need to TEST A SET AND PLAY AGAINST IT to know how effective it really is.

I run SoftSand Trio ;). He says FU to Roserade, Moltress, Missmaggy, Rotom, and Chansey. I know this because he is a staple on a majority of my teams. As well have played against one.
Click to expand...

Isn't Earth Plate better than Soft Sand, or am I missing something?

Edit: Nvm, I was thinking of R/S/E days xD
 
Taylor said:
Excellent subject.

I am very keen on items, movesets and the like of which offer something "different", but ultimately aim to achieve one goal: victory. It only takes one turn for that innovative imagination of yours to put yourself at an advantage, and more often than not I include some sort of creative element in my teams to give me that edge.

I actually ran Yache Berry Salamence with the standard "MixedMence" moveset. You limit your damage output by a small margin, but you're rewarded with an unexpected suprise that may well come in handy. At a time when YacheChomp was rampant, I was one of the minority to utilize Haban Berry instead; reasons are self-explanitory. It was the difference in an Antiquity tournament match, where husk Dragon Danced with his Salamence and failed to OHKO my Garchomp with Dragon Claw (pre-Platinum, may I add).

So many possibilities out there!
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You mean in this match? That was a pretty nasty trick, though it paid off, of course.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiOBGzRLtAk&feature=related

I used to run Yache Berry Salamence, but as people moved away from revenge killing with Ice attacks, there wasn't much point to it anymore. Most of these unorthodox items have less intrinsic merit than Life Orb and Leftovers, the standards. Their value depends on the metagame. If people decided to use things like Infernape, Lucario, and Breloom to revenge kil a Tyranitar, you could bet that Babiri Berry would be on the way out.
 
Wacan Gyarados is really not all that great, particularly against bulky waters.

You DD as Vappy comes in. Okay, it HP Electrics and you can either EQ or DD again. In either case, you are still going to lose beacuse a +1 Stone Edge/EQ really isn't going to 2HKO (3% chance or so), and if you go for a second DD, you still only do 64% max. Meanwhile, Vappy kills you. Meanwhile, something like LO or Specs Jolteon STILL 1hkos you with a STAB Thunderbolt. Without a LO, you really have no chance in hell of beating something like Celebi or Starmie at all either.

It is only remotely useful against something like Scarf Latias whose chance of KOing you after SR is 28%...
 
Shuca on lucario cost me the game when I faced one. Ipl also had a DP team with ghost-resist berry on deoxys speed form.
 
My example of using uncommon items/moves

Gengar @ Mind Plate
252 spd/252 sp. atk/4 def
Modest Nature
-Shadow Ball
-Hypnosis
-Dream Eater
-Thunderbolt

Dream eater is used for some hp recovery, and mind plate bossts the damage dealth by dream eater, therefore boosting hp gained at the same time.
 
It's funny to see the ShucaLuc set as the first example. I've been running Focus Sash SD Lucario (with Rapid Spin support), and it's won me many games. It works really well because whether or not you hold a Life Orb isn't apparent anyway (unlike switching Passho Steelix in on SR, or into a weak attack. The lack of Lefties might set off an experienced player). Obviously Focus Sash is ruined by priority, but it does stop a larger range of counters than one specific berry.
 
chenman333 said:
Wacan Gyarados is really not all that great, particularly against bulky waters.

You DD as Vappy comes in. Okay, it HP Electrics and you can either EQ or DD again. In either case, you are still going to lose beacuse a +1 Stone Edge/EQ really isn't going to 2HKO (3% chance or so), and if you go for a second DD, you still only do 64% max. Meanwhile, Vappy kills you. Meanwhile, something like LO or Specs Jolteon STILL 1hkos you with a STAB Thunderbolt. Without a LO, you really have no chance in hell of beating something like Celebi or Starmie at all either.

It is only remotely useful against something like Scarf Latias whose chance of KOing you after SR is 28%...
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obviously you have to play around a situation like this.

if you have a Jolteon of your own, or a ground type, the play is obvious.

whenever you're using a pokemon with a 4x weakness, you have to be pepared to compensate.
 
Lum Berries are great on Bulky Waters and other tanky pokemon.

People LOVE to use Toxic on Bulky pokemon. And unless that pokemon has Rest, Lum Berry is a great choice.
 
Yes they are viable, as long as you use them right. During the world cup, us oceanians were almost spamming what we called 'bociania'. It was

Tyranitar @ expert belt/dark glasses/ muscle band
-Pursuit
-Superpower
-Stone Edge/Crunch
-Filler

Filler could've been another stab move, fire blast or even taunt.

This thing taped stall as a role player. Switch into Bliss and use pursuit on the first turn. They would have either switched and ate a 50% hit (with SR) or used protect. If they used protect, you know that they'll stay in so just OHKO them with superpower. Gengar, latias etc. then sweeps.
 
Draco plate is a pretty good alternative on "new mixmence" as the stuff your hitting with EQ and Fire Blast are going to be hit super-effectively anyway, so all your moves are hitting for more damage and you're not wasting health attacking (plus bluffing choice!) Most people have got this already, but one of the best applications for this is bluffing choice items.

^^Black glasses is the best for that as you want to hit blissey for as much as possible on the switch so it can't come back in safely (imo).
 
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