All Gens Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer Mark II (RoA edition)

[FriendOfMrGolem120]

Re: Counter in RBY
First I need to clarify that I will only explain the current mechanics on Showdown. In the actual cartridge games Counter can cause desyncs (showing each player different results) in specific situations. If you want to know more about that, read this post here. Currently people are discussing whether the simulator mechanics should be changed, kept as they are or banning Counter in this thread.

First thing to note about Counter is that it will always fail if the opponent's last move was a non-damaging move, the move Counter or not normal or fighting type (basically all moves that can "regularly" be countered in RBY - I will call them "counterable moves" from now on).
Should the last move your opponent has used be a counterable move (it doesn't matter if they spent turns frozen, sleeping, full paralysing or switching since then) and you use Counter, the game checks the damage counter. The damage counter basically is the last damage any attack did, no matter the type or player.
The damage counter will be reset to 0 if a non-damaging attack has been used that isn't Confuse Ray, Conversion, Focus Energy, Glare, Haze, Leech Seed, Light Screen, Mimic, Mist, Poison Gas, Poison Powder, Recover, Reflect, Rest, Soft-Boiled, Splash, Stun Spore, Substitute, Supersonic, Teleport, Thunder Wave, Toxic, or Transform.

This should explain everything but it is extremely complicated and it has happened in tournament games that notable players remembered these mechanics incorrectly so I will give some examples. I played a battle against myself to illustrate some of the mechanics. Replay Link


Turn 5: Eggy switches in and Snorlax uses Body Slam. Damage counter=the damage from Body Slam
Turn 6: Eggy uses Sleep Powder. Sleep Powder is a non-damaging move that is not listed above so the damage counter is reset to 0
Turn 8: Snorlax is asleep and Chansey tries to use Counter. Since nothing has changed about the damage counter after turn 6, Counter fails.
Turn 9: Chansey uses Ice Beam. Snorlax sleeps. Damage counter=the damage from Ice Beam
Turn 10: Snorlax is sleeping. Chansey uses Counter. Now let's do a check.
Last move used by the opponent? Body Slam which is counterable. Damage Counter? The damage from Ice Beam. This means Counter will do twice the damage Ice Beam did to Snorlax.
Turn 11: Snorlax switches. Chansey uses Counter. Let's check again.
Last move used by the opponent? Body Slam which is counterable. Damage Counter? The damage Counter did to Snorlax. This means Counter will do twice the damage from the previous Counter (which means 4 times the damage Ice Beam did).

 

[FriendOfMrGolem120]

Haze is rarely used in GSC. The most "common" examples I can think of right now are Qwilfish in UU and the defensive Dragonite set in OU (Reflect, Haze, Sleep Talk, Rest; which is really rarely seen and very vulnerable to critical hits at a bad time). These two actually illustrate the different uses of Haze perfectly: on Qwilfish it is usually used as an emergency check to a set up mon. You use it when such a mon becomes too damgerous and after Qwilfish eventually faints, you can bring in another pokemon safely.
Defensive Dragonite on the other hand tries to be a longterm counter to a few pokemon. In order to do this, it is important that it doesn't take too much damage from non-boosted attacks of the pokemon you are trying to wall and that you have a recovery move like Rest.

1. I have never seen someone use Haze an a boosting move on the same set I think.
2. This is actually an important question that I already tried to adress above a bit. Yes, your opponent can stay in and just use the setup move again but then you could also just Haze again. If Haze has more pp than the opponent's boosting move, boosting won't help your opponent. You were speaking about Vaporeon as a Hazer and Snorlax as a Curser. The issue in this matchup is that Snorlax already threatens Vaporeon without boosting so it is no long term solution, just an emergency one. This is true for the Dragonite matchup as well though so I see a flaw in my argument but on the other hand, I doubt you were planning to use a Vaporeon set without any damaging move and the same set as D-Nite. And to be honest, Vaporeon would do that role quite poorly. In OU the most common Vaporeon set is Surf, Growth, Sleep Talk and Rest. Acid Armor is also used instead of Sleep Talk. There are some other good sets as well, but none of them include Haze.
3. Depends. If you have multiple pokemon that could handle the opposing boosting mon, you can switch between them. If not, you usually stay in. But once again, in practice Haze doesn't play a large role in GSC OU.

I don't recommend to use Haze on Vaporeon.

PS. There is also Kindgra as "viable" Hazer in GSC but well... it is not really that viable.

 

[lvakq]

Thank you for your reply FriendOfMrGolem. I copy pasted your answer on the PokemonDB (crediting you) if you don’t mind. That is where I first asked.

What you write is really helpful. My plan for Vap was Surf, Ice Beam, Acid Armor, and Haze, AA being the aforementioned boost; my thinking was that using it after haze, I could absorb retaliation, assuming Vap is brought out at the right time and has time to up Defense (for instance whilst Snorlax is asleep, and if I know/guess it doesn’t have Sleep Talk). The other two to possibly to do some damage as well so that I don’t lock Vaporeon into purely that role, which as you say it maybe can’t excel at. For instance for dealing with a Sword Dancing Scyther (if it can take the first blow — I don’t really know here). Maybe Vaporeon isn’t a great choice in GSC I don’t really know, but I like it so I think I’ll use it. If not Haze, do you have any suggestions for a last move?

I saw the Growth move suggested on Smogon, but from what I understand I can’t get it in my position (which is playing a GBC, at home). The only Rest TM available I was planning to give to Umbreon which would take a stalling/annoying role, which from what I understand is typical. Again, maybe they’re not ideal to use in GSC, but I like them as Pokemon.

I was also thinking of potentially a Roar on an offensive Dragonite. It would be a little bit of a surprise (?) and also give some control if a big threat is brought out against it. Would that be a strange move to include? I’d add to that an Extreme Speed for targeting low HPs/being ahead, a Thunder/Thunderbolt since an Ice Beam wielding Pokemon is likely to be water/half water, and possibly a strong Fire move in case not (eg Nidoqueen).

Any thoughts would be most welcome.

 

[FriendOfMrGolem120]

Yeah, I don't mind you copying my answer.
Vaporeon is a strong pokemon in GSC OU but in competitive play only used for Growth. Wthout the ability to set up it lacks the power and coverage to beat lots of opposing pokemon (especially if they have recovery moves) and without Rest you won't be able to handle the opposing threats for very long. Given your situation, I think the best would be to try Rain Dance as an alternative as well as Hydro Pump instead of Surf (Surf is generally fine though).
On the Showdown simulator Dragonite can't learn Roar (or Whirlwind) and it also isn't listed on Bulbapedia. Correct me if it can indeed learn it. Thunder, Ice Beam and Flamethrower are certainly good coverage moves for Dragonite. A common set is Thunder, Ice Beam, Thunder Wave and Dynamic Punch. The latter helps Draonite to threaten pokemon like Snorlax and Umbreon that would otherwise wall it. Extreeme Speed should also be okay.
Giving Umbreon Rest is a very good idea in general but you could consider giving it Moonlight and saving the TM for something else.

 

[lvakq]

...

Thanks for the reply! Interesting with regards to Rain Dance, I did actually consider that possibility but was worried about interaction with the rest of the team e.g. working against a fire move I may want to use shortly after, if Vaporeon should faint, or indeed using a weakened Moonlight, or if my opponent draws out something that can Thunder against me, shortly after having Rain Danced. I suppose the idea is for Vaporeon to wall enough attacks to avoid those, but it seemed tricky to my (completely unexperienced) self. So essentially you are suggesting a Surf/HydroPump, Rain dance, Rest, Sleep talk?

You're right, I have absolutely no idea where I got that from. I must've misread something. Getting Haze on Dragonite is a massive pain in the game from what I can tell too. So I suppose replacing the last spot with one of the attacking moves you mention would be good. I did read about the Dynamic Punch option (which sounds like it could be very useful indeed against a tough Snorlax/Blissey), though the low PP and frustratingly low accuracy made it look like a risky option, especially if Snorlax is packing a non-Earthquake powerful move.

For context though, I initially had Nidoqueen in mind rather than Vaporeon, which maybe would've formed a more well-rounded team, but then again I felt like I needed more high defense. If it helps, the full set I am looking at is:

Lapras, most likely as a lead (Confuse Ray, Surf, Ice beam, Psychic [considered an electric move which I think is common, but this seemed interesting if I am met with something that resists to the Water/Ice])
Snorlax (Curse, Rest, Earthquake, possibly Body Slam)
Dragonite (special attacks mentioned)
Tyranitar (a more physical and somewhat predictable set: Earthquake, Rock slide because STAB and useful against the fighting threat, Crunch for similar reasons, and Thunderbolt seemed like a good/surprise idea if an enemy water/bug is brought in)
Umbreon (Rest, Toxic, Pursuit, unsure of last move -- another Confuse Ray could be annoying, or a Screech)

... and then finally the last spot which I'd like to go to Vaporeon, but I see that it could be redundant with a Lapras there. As mentioned, I considered Nidoqueen for the spot and also Scyther though I don't have the confidence to pull off the latter (I can see my inexperience resulting in it fainting before I can set it up sufficiently; the upside is it would balance well since the team is a little weak to Fighting overall).

 

[FriendOfMrGolem120]

I was initially suggesting Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Rain Dance, Acid Armor but was under the assumption that you wanted to use the Rest TM for another mon. You could try that set with RestTalk.
Curse Snorlax is a very huge threat against your team (it has the potential to sweep through all your pokemon since you have no reliable counters against it and most of your mons can't pressure it that much). For that reason you could use Charm on Umbreon as the last move.
Another suggestion: Spikes are extremely strong in GSC and Pineco is also not difficult to obtain. It also learns Explosion which is another extremely strong move.

I took a few minutes trying to come up with a good team that isn't as difficult to build in-game and very resource friendly (meaning you don't need to chain breed for moves or use the same TM more than once).

The Team

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: None
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Belly Drum
- Rest

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: None
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Explosion
- Protect

Miltank (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: None
- Body Slam
- Growl
- Heal Bell
- Milk Drink

Misdreavus @ Leftovers
Ability: None
- Confuse Ray
- Mean Look
- Perish Song
- Pain Split

Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: None
- Thunder
- Reflect
- Roar
- Rest

Exeggutor @ Leftovers
Ability: None
- Stun Spore
- Psychic
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed

Team desription

All the moves I gave Forretress, Miltank and Misdreavus are ones they learn via levelup so you don't need to waste any TMs.
Snorlax is very bulky and an huge offensive threat at the same time.
Forretress is your Spikes setter. With that move, you will put the opponent under pressure and rack up passive damage whenever they are switching which really adds up in the longrun. I chose Protect for the last slot so you don't need to use a TM but you could replace it with Toxic (or Giga Drain which is mainly useful if your opponent has a Cloyster as their Spiker).
Miltank is a very good allrounder. It checks opposing CurseSnorlax thanks to Growl. Heal Bell removes the status from your other pokemon.
Misdreavus can block Rapid Spin should the opponent try to remove your Spikes. It is also really dangerous but luck based.
Raikou threatens a lot of pokemon with its Thunder forcing them to switch out or risk taking a lot of damage. Roar and Spikes have very nice synergy. If your opponent for example only has two pokemon that are not heavily threatened by Thunder, you can use Roar when you predict your opponent switching to one of them and potentially forcing an for your opponent unfavorable pokemon in. That way you can weaken the entire team of your opponent quite often. I gave it Rest for longevity but you could first try using it without it to see whether you want to use your TM on it.
I chose Exeggutor as last but that slot is very flexible. You can try out different pokemon there.

The team I suggested is by no means necessarily the best or only possible good team. My main goal was to build a resource efficient team that isn't too difficult to obtain. If you want you can play on Pokemon Showdown with the team first (or use other selfmade teams that you consider getting on cartridge so you can test them before levelling pokemon up/wasting TMs.

 

[Empress Mobile]

When the OU tiers for Gens 1-3 were recently tweaked, why wasn't Regice moved to UUBL when it's generally agreed to be about on par with Raikou in terms of viability?

 

[sumwun]

When the OU tiers for Gens 1-3 were recently tweaked, why wasn't Regice moved to UUBL when it's generally agreed to be about on par with Raikou in terms of viability?

https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/ud.327631/

 

[Empress Mobile]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/members/ud.327631/

Thanks! That definitely makes sense.

 

[sumwun]

Why is Dugtrio in BW OU? Is it because arena trap got banned after BW stopped doing usage tiers?

 

[Siglut]

I just played a battle on the adv ladder: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1073724958
and on turn I go to magneton on an aerodactyl rock slide.
The opposing Aerodactyl used Rock Slide!
It's not very effective...
(Magneton lost 25% of its health!)
My magneton spread is 4hp/0def and the calc against banded aero rock slide is: 252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 82-97 (33.8 - 40%)
I thought it was really weird that it didn't do that much but didn't calc it immediately. Later in the game I do, and decide he is not banded. However, eventually my opponent is rock sliding my jirachi:
The opposing Aerodactyl used Rock Slide!
It's not very effective...
(Jirachi lost 23% of its health!)
my jirachi spread is 252hp/0def and calc is: 252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 79-93 (19.5 - 23%)
so this clearly has to be CB. Showdown and the teambuilder are in agreement on magneton's stats (242hp and 226def).
Is this an inconsistency between showdown and the damage calc, a bug, or is there something I'm missing? I'm expecting the latter, which is why I posted here, because I'm not 100% on gen3 mechanics. Thanks!

 

[Finchinator]

Why is Dugtrio in BW OU? Is it because arena trap got banned after BW stopped doing usage tiers?

Yes

 

[Merritt]

I just played a battle on the adv ladder: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3ou-1073724958
and on turn I go to magneton on an aerodactyl rock slide.
The opposing Aerodactyl used Rock Slide!
It's not very effective...
(Magneton lost 25% of its health!)
My magneton spread is 4hp/0def and the calc against banded aero rock slide is: 252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 82-97 (33.8 - 40%)
I thought it was really weird that it didn't do that much but didn't calc it immediately. Later in the game I do, and decide he is not banded. However, eventually my opponent is rock sliding my jirachi:
The opposing Aerodactyl used Rock Slide!
It's not very effective...
(Jirachi lost 23% of its health!)
my jirachi spread is 252hp/0def and calc is: 252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 79-93 (19.5 - 23%)
so this clearly has to be CB. Showdown and the teambuilder are in agreement on magneton's stats (242hp and 226def).
Is this an inconsistency between showdown and the damage calc, a bug, or is there something I'm missing? I'm expecting the latter, which is why I posted here, because I'm not 100% on gen3 mechanics. Thanks!

siglut sent out Salamence!
[The opposing Salamence's Intimidate]
Aerodactyl's Attack fell!

(The sandstorm is raging.)
The opposing Salamence is buffeted by the sandstorm!

Turn 13

siglut withdrew Salamence!
siglut sent out Magneton!
The opposing Magneton was hurt by the spikes!

Aerodactyl used Rock Slide!
It's not very effective...
(The opposing Magneton lost 25% of its health!)

 

[Siglut]

siglut sent out Salamence!
[The opposing Salamence's Intimidate]
Aerodactyl's Attack fell!

(The sandstorm is raging.)
The opposing Salamence is buffeted by the sandstorm!

Turn 13

siglut withdrew Salamence!
siglut sent out Magneton!
The opposing Magneton was hurt by the spikes!

Aerodactyl used Rock Slide!
It's not very effective...
(The opposing Magneton lost 25% of its health!)

I'm sorry. Thank you

 

[Tramuntana]

Question. Why there hasn't ever been a retest on Deoxys-D? I can understand holding it out in ORAS where the meta wasn't that much different from BW and Bisharp was a thing, but SM's meta was different enough to consider it, especially with the newer Defoggers that have no problem getting past Defiant shenanigans.

I quote from the SM analysis:

• Deoxys-D's seemingly excellent bulk, having base 160 Special Defense and Defense, is hindered greatly by its low base 50 HP.
• It is extremely passive due to having below-average attacking stats, so it usually runs Toxic to make up for it and is thus very susceptible to Taunt.
• Deoxys-D also has a terrible defensive typing in Psychic, which lacks resistances, makes Deoxys-D vulnerable to all entry hazards and status, notably Toxic, and gives it common weaknesses to Ghost- and Dark-types and U-turn. Notably, Mega Gengar is able to trap and remove Deoxys-D with minimal effort.
• Because of these traits, Deoxys-Dis almost completely outclassed by other bulky Spikes setters such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Klefki, all of which have better defensive typings and can check a larger range of threats, even when accounting for Deoxys-D's faster Taunt.
  [*]Deoxys-D is a waste of a teamslot and should never be used on a serious team .
  
  Honestly, I think he deserves a second chance in OU, and don't tell me "we don't test anymore" because you DID with Chlorophyl (wich by the way, banning Venusaur would have been better, especially considering he is now locked in OU despite having dropped to near 0% usage) and Arena Trap on BW and ORAS, and sort-of recently with sleep on BW, Farceus on DPPt. Any supports?

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

How would one use Raichu in GSC UU, now that it's banned from NU?

 

[Earthworm]

How would one use Raichu in GSC UU, now that it's banned from NU?

It's competing with both Ampharos and Electabuzz, so it is not very viable. However, I guess you would want to use a Thunder / Surf set of some sort. It does have access to Sing, which could be a useful differentiator. Either RestTalk or Thunder / Surf / Sing / (Substitute/HP Fire or Ice) seems like the way to go. Thief is also available. Encore is illegal with both Surf and Sing so it has limited use.

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

It's competing with both Ampharos and Electabuzz, so it is not very viable. However, I guess you would want to use a Thunder / Surf set of some sort. It does have access to Sing, which could be a useful differentiator. Either RestTalk or Thunder / Surf / Sing / (Substitute/HP Fire or Ice) seems like the way to go. Thief is also available. Encore is illegal with both Surf and Sing so it has limited use.

OK, say I wanted to use Raichu in GSC UU. What would be good teammates for it?

 

[Earthworm]

OK, say I wanted to use Raichu in GSC UU. What would be good teammates for it?

I'd recommend bringing a safe Ampharos answer such as Nidoqueen, a safe Granbull answer such as Omastar, Haunter, or Magneton, Spikes with Qwilfish, and maybe a Thief Mr. Mime or a Kadabra to help break through Ampharos. Then you can attempt to put Nidoqueen to sleep which may open up the opposing team for Raichu to wreak havoc with Thunder.

 

[Finchinator]

Question. Why there hasn't ever been a retest on Deoxys-D? I can understand holding it out in ORAS where the meta wasn't that much different from BW and Bisharp was a thing, but SM's meta was different enough to consider it, especially with the newer Defoggers that have no problem getting past Defiant shenanigans.

I quote from the SM analysis:

• Deoxys-D's seemingly excellent bulk, having base 160 Special Defense and Defense, is hindered greatly by its low base 50 HP.
• It is extremely passive due to having below-average attacking stats, so it usually runs Toxic to make up for it and is thus very susceptible to Taunt.
• Deoxys-D also has a terrible defensive typing in Psychic, which lacks resistances, makes Deoxys-D vulnerable to all entry hazards and status, notably Toxic, and gives it common weaknesses to Ghost- and Dark-types and U-turn. Notably, Mega Gengar is able to trap and remove Deoxys-D with minimal effort.
• Because of these traits, Deoxys-Dis almost completely outclassed by other bulky Spikes setters such as Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Klefki, all of which have better defensive typings and can check a larger range of threats, even when accounting for Deoxys-D's faster Taunt.
  [*]Deoxys-D is a waste of a teamslot and should never be used on a serious team .
  
  Honestly, I think he deserves a second chance in OU, and don't tell me "we don't test anymore" because you DID with Chlorophyl (wich by the way, banning Venusaur would have been better, especially considering he is now locked in OU despite having dropped to near 0% usage) and Arena Trap on BW and ORAS, and sort-of recently with sleep on BW, Farceus on DPPt. Any supports?

You are quoting from an Ubers analysis and trying to draw OU parallels. It was discussed in council during the generation and there was unanimous agreement it would be a bad idea. It will not be retested in SM anytime soon.

 

[Marty]

I discovered at GEN4 that Helpinghand increases the power of futuresight by a factor of 2.25 instead of 1.5. Does this Calculation also occur in GEN3?

version:Perl(Japanese)
Attack:ナマズン（レベル51、特攻86）Whiscash level 51、Special Attack 86
Defense:サワムラー（特防130）Hitmonlee Special Defense 130
Move:「みらいよち」Futuresight
→23damage

Attack:ナマズン（レベル51、特攻86）&Helpinghand
Defense:サワムラー（特防130）
Move:「みらいよち」
→45、49、51、52、54damage

Good find! I checked in Emerald and it only gives the normal 1.5x bonus, probably because Helping Hand is a one-time damage modifier in Gen 3 instead of a stackable power modifier as it is in future gens.

Did these tests with the same Pokemon you used; level 51 Whiscash with 86 Sp. Atk against a level 50 Hitmonlee with 130 Sp. Def. Three trials each with and without Helping Hand.

Helping Hand Future Sight: 33, 32, 33 damage

Future Sight: 21, 21, 23 damage

 

[Bughouse]

I'd recommend bringing a safe Ampharos answer such as Nidoqueen, a safe Granbull answer such as Omastar, Haunter, or Magneton, Spikes with Qwilfish, and maybe a Thief Mr. Mime or a Kadabra to help break through Ampharos. Then you can attempt to put Nidoqueen to sleep which may open up the opposing team for Raichu to wreak havoc with Thunder.

Even so, Pikachu can already do this, generally better than Raichu. There’s a reason Pikachu was kept in UU and Raichu in NU.

 

[Sevi 7]

What resources do we have for Random Battles? I'm trying to find information on mons for Generation 1, but all I could find so far is this

 

[Ortheore]

Are there any good players on the gen 2 ubers ladder? I was hype for this, but it's so inactive and the few people I encounter for this haven't the slightest clue what they're doing

edit: I'm 15th on the ladder, wtf when did that happen? I've played like half a dozen games, none of them against good players

 

[EB0LA]

Are there any good players on the gen 2 ubers ladder? I was hype for this, but it's so inactive and the few people I encounter for this haven't the slightest clue what they're doing

edit: I'm 15th on the ladder, wtf when did that happen? I've played like half a dozen games, none of them against good players

Here is some GSC Ubers for you to try.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/victory-road-8.3660896/

Also, later in the year there is RoA Olympics, which includes the GSC ubers tier. RoA Tour Schedule

Else the unpopular tiers are pretty empty on the ladder. I usually try to ask someone in the RoA room on PS if anyone wants to play or that I am searching a particular ladder to try & get a paring.