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Not sure if this is the right place or if I should use the contact info given for the Setpedia, but I noticed two things.
1. Most Pokemon have even HP. At the very least, HP should be odd for Stealth Rock weak Pokemon, Substitute users, and Life Orb users.
2. Quick Feet Mega-Ray has the wrong Special Defense EVs/nature. The given set cannot reliably OHKO full health Imposter with +3 Ice Beam. It should either switch to a Modest nature or run 176 Special Defense IVs. I recommend running Modest unless you guys feel beating +2 positive speed Diancie is worth the drop in bulk.
+3 252 SpA Rayquaza-Mega Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 704-832 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252 SpA Rayquaza-Mega Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 660-780 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+3 252+ SpA Rayquaza-Mega Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 724-856 (102.8 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
calculating a "stealth rock number" depends on the mon. while you are correct in saying that something 4x weak to rocks like zard y or ho oh would need odd hp (not divisible by 2) to not die to 2 stealth rock switchins, something 2x weak (yveltal) would only need it to not be divisible by 4, something sr neutral (mega mewtwo y) would need it not divisible by 8, etc.
as an example: according to fsk, mega rayquaza has 414 hp fully invested. the stealth rock damage rounds down to 103, meaning that after 4 switchins into rocks, mega ray will survive with 2 hp left. it works because 414 is not divisible by 4.
the same thinking works for life orb. while an hp number ending in 9 is ideal, any number that doesn't end in 0 works because that way lo doesn't ko you in ten hits. (a way of thinking about lo is that it takes away the first two numbers of your max hp every time you deal damage. so if you have 437 max hp, every hit will take off 43. this happens because pokemon rounds numbers down)
you're correct regarding the quick feet ray evs though, that should be fixed.
I have updated all my initial posts to follow the "-Mega" format as with /dt on PS and alphabetized them
Updated Setpedia taking in some comments here and in pm's.
Some people were asking for a "no format" version of the setpedia, which has been added right on the first page as well, and I will try to keep it updated
Updated negative speed tiers with Ferrothorn
Made some other fixes in general typos, removing retired BHC staff names, formatting inside hide tags etc
on Pogre: A is fine for it, its defensive roles have gotten slightly better as it doesn't need to worry as much about M2X, but not enough to warrant a rank change
on Ash-Greninja: It's fine where it is. It serves as the other extreme in options for a primary Water attacker, with one extreme being Primal Kyogre, and Palkia offering a decent balance between the two. Having used it myself though, it is still somewhat weak (the fact that its ice beam cannot OHKO MegaRay) and I don't think it's needed to rise as well.
on Lucario-Mega: Similar to above, its STAB Gear Grind is the only thing making it a better option from just using MewtwoMegaX, though it is a slightly more consistent Unburden option
Thanks for the patience.
Feel like something is missing from the SetPedia? Mention it in this thread (if you prefer to have some discussion about it) or you can also PM any of the BHC through the BH Discord (which tends to be faster)
I write this post to argue that some of the "ideal" abilities listed on the vr should change/change order. In order of the VR:
Kyogre-p: Regenerator, Fur Coat, Poison Heal. The only good PH Kyogre-p set are the water spout ones; scald versions do have more PP but are easily walled or forced out. AV Steels can easily take a +1 scald and spectral thief/core enforcer to force it out. Water Spout only has 8 pp so it is easily used up, though it can definitely dent teams. Still, the defensive sets are way better.
Zygarde-C: Fur Coat, Poison Heal > Unaware, Magic bounce. PH sets are way too easily forced out by too many things. Unaware is a much better check to physical boosters, and the moves are very customizable since it checks those mons with its bulk alone. Still, PH Zygard-C is worse than the other sets, imho. Fur coat is still better since it can still handle +2 physically oriented shell smashers about as well. MB works but is probably better used on something that isn't so easily forced out.
Regigigas: Add simple.
The simple shell smash set is terrifying because 1) It lures in standard counters to the PH set and just sets up on them, 2) it can run any item, 3) it can OHKO almost the entire meta once set up. Also, it can set up multiple times.
To further add to the argument for Simple, it has enough bulk at -2 to live a Mega Diancie Pixie Plate boosted Extreme Speed (252 Atk Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Extreme Speed vs. -2 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 325-384 (76.6 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ), A Mega Rayquaza Oblivion Wing with Life Orb (252 SpA Life Orb Triage Rayquaza-Mega Oblivion Wing vs. -2 252 HP / 252 SpD Regigigas: 321-380 (75.7 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), A Sky plate Mega Rayquaza extreme speed (252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. -2 252 HP / 252 Def Regigigas: 357-420 (84.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). Defensively, you can of course gamble with the imposter speed tie (unless it's running focus sash); passively prankster haze it (+4 252+ Atk Regigigas Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 148-175 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) until it gets bored of setting up or gains momentum by switching to something else; try and heart swap its boosts (+4 252+ Atk Regigigas Power Trip (260 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Zygarde-Complete: 342-403 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and +4 252+ Atk Regigigas Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Zygarde-Complete: 264-311 (41.5 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO); or run King's Shield on random mons just to check it and other physical simple users (King's Shield is otherwise a fairly suboptimal move compared to other protect clones because it doesn't block nondamaging moves). Other than that, you're going to lose something. That may seem like a lot of counterplay, but I don't want to have to run Prankster haze or Zygarde-C on every team just to check Regigigas. And anyway, Regigigas can easily modify its moveset to beat your check.
TLDR: Simple regigigas needs to go on the vr.
Dialga:Regenrator, magic Bounce, Tinted Lens. Dialga is very versatile which makes the ability preferences a bit harder to pick, but regen-vest dialga's unique typing and great mixed bulk allow it to compete competently as a regen-vester. The STAB on core enforcer is really useful, and if you run aSteel move then you can check Mega Diancie (You can't counter it sadly). It's also extremely effective at spinning since the threat of Core Enforcer can scare Giratina. It should definitely go above tinted lens, at least.
Gyarados-mega: Unaware, Poison Heal >Dazzling/Simple/Illusion, Regenerator. PH Gyarados just isn't a thing anymore as there are much better PH users. I've already talked about why Dazzle Smash and simple smash are way too good, but it does those things way better than it could ever do Poison Heal. Even Illusion is a way better offensive ability on it because it has a very good chance of getting a free setup turn, even with team preview telling your opponent that it's an Illusion set. After it megas, it gets Mold Breaker which is insanely good. It's also totally imposterproof so you don't have to worry about that either. It of course has the other faults of Shell Smashers like an extreme priority weakness. Still, PH is just bad and should go, and regenerator is subpar post psysurge ban. But even before the ban, Mewtwo-y was running Volt Switch which does over 40% which negates the regenerator recovery, and even defensive mons' u-turns do 20, so it is just bad.
Necrozma-dm: Regenerator, Flash Fire, Unburden>Prankster. Prankster Necrozma-dm is almost totally outclassed by prankster Registeel except that it can actually survive unboosted MMX hits when Registeel cannot. Still, no good player is using Necrozma-dm as their MMX check. Necrozma-dm is probably the best unburden user currently because its attack stat is second only to Kartana, its bulk is way better, and it gets a second STAB move in Photon Guiser that would blow out some unaware users like Kyogre-p that could check Kartana. If you don't have a prankster haze user and Necrozma-dm gets its belly drum off, and it has more than about 25-30% health after setup, you can click x right now.
Please, please Please Remove magic Guard from Shedinja, that's only for those annoying 6x shedinja gimmick teams.
Tyranitar-mega: Sand Stream, Magic bounce > Adaptability, Poison Heal. Like other PH Users Tyranitar-mega is a lot worse now because of Core Enforcer, and it has a boatload of type weaknesses that force it out as well. Sand Stream is way better than it because of the chip damage it does, the special defense boost, and the boost to shore up recovery. Adapt-tar is extremely good though because its Knock Off or Pursuit, if predicted right, can permanently cripple a defensive mon on the opposing team. Definitely one of the better balance breakers out there.
Zekrom: Add electric surge. Really strong bolt Strikes coming from it plus sleep immunity.
Aegislash: Flash fire, Prankster. FF is more common and arguably better as it can serve as a check to magic Guard MMY without having to kill itself. It can also trap and kill PH Regigigas or Will-o-Wisp physical attackers. All prankster can do is die at an opportune time.
Ferrothorn: Flash Fire, Unaware. No one runs regenvest Ferrothorn because it's just bad. The grass typing makes it neutral to a lot of hits that regenvest steels should be taking neutral from like flying and ice, and its bulk is much worse than Dialga's. Dialga can get away with having a detrimental secondary typing because it can actually take those neutral hits all right whereas Ferrothorn cannot, and of course it still would have to worry about fire attacks. unaware is pretty bad too, tbh, but at least it's semiviable.
Garchomp-Mega: Adapt, Poison Heal >Just about any other offensive ability. Even Dazzling is miles better than Poison Heal for the surprise value. Poison Heal garchomp-mega is about twice as bad as Poison Heal Zygarde C. It has much worse bulk, so it can't set up.
Remove Psychic Surge from Deoxys-A and Necrozma-u
Do people still use Regen-vest Hoopa-U? I know they did in the past, and it's definitely more common than Tinted Lens, though maybe that set is actually good.
Magearna: Flash Fire, Magic Bounce, Regenerator. magic Bounce magearna is fairly effective because of its Core Enforcer immunity, bulk, and typing. It also has much better Special attack than Audino-mega so it can actually threaten some things out with Fleur or Moonblast. Also it sort of checks -ate users, though Fire and Ground coverage is usually enough to OHKO after some hazard damage or after it switches in to take the -ate hit.
I think lati-megas should be taken off of the vr, Ultra Necrozma does all of their stuff better.
Line breaks and/or formatting please. Hoooly crap that is hard to read and I gave up part way through. Particularly once I got to your Gigas spoiler tag and it was filled with in-line damage calculations that just made it a near unreadable mess to my eyes. I also can't tell what you're suggesting sometimes. Like, should Kyo-P list its abilities in the order you listed? Or are you just commenting on them?
Though I did dig out enough to comment on this on Gigas...
The simple shell smash set is terrifying because 1) It lures in standard counters to the PH set and just sets up on them, 2) it can run any item, 3) it can OHKO almost the entire meta once set up. Also, it can set up multiple times.
Point 2 and 3 apply to any Simple user with good offensive stats. Simple could be argued to be a good/VR worthy ability on everything in S rank and everything except Audino, Primal Groudon, Registeel in A rank with those two points alone. (Yes, I've run Simple Solgaleo. It's fun and it also can 2/OHKO almost the entire meta with Stored Power and Sunsteel Strike.) Gigas only has Spectral Thief immunity over other Simple users and ability to sorta-Imposter-proof with Frustration, as the rest have generally better STABs and pack resistances.
Point 1 though... ummm, how? If your opponent sees you don't activate a Toxic Orb, then why would they send in a PH counter? The lack of Orb tips them off something is up and, I can't speak for others, but Simple/Contrary would be my next guesses since those are fairly common Gigas abilities on low ladder. It also doesn't help that Gigas doesn't really have any other particularly viable abilities for it beyond those three. I mean, it could run like... Regenerator or Magic Bounce, but it's generally outclassed and frequently non-threatening with those abilities.
I'll admit I might have missed a point in that huge jumbled mess of the spoiler box that refuted me, and there might be other stuff I'd like to comment on buried in your post, but it's a serious pain trying to read that. Again, please add some line breaks or formatting.
I have updated all my initial posts to follow the "-Mega" format as with /dt on PS and alphabetized them
Updated Setpedia taking in some comments here and in pm's.
Some people were asking for a "no format" version of the setpedia, which has been added right on the first page as well, and I will try to keep it updated
Updated negative speed tiers with Ferrothorn
Made some other fixes in general typos, removing retired BHC staff names, formatting inside hide tags etc
on Pogre: A is fine for it, its defensive roles have gotten slightly better as it doesn't need to worry as much about M2X, but not enough to warrant a rank change
on Ash-Greninja: It's fine where it is. It serves as the other extreme in options for a primary Water attacker, with one extreme being Primal Kyogre, and Palkia offering a decent balance between the two. Having used it myself though, it is still somewhat weak (the fact that its ice beam cannot OHKO MegaRay) and I don't think it's needed to rise as well.
on Lucario-Mega: Similar to above, its STAB Gear Grind is the only thing making it a better option from just using MewtwoMegaX, though it is a slightly more consistent Unburden option
Thanks for the patience.
Feel like something is missing from the SetPedia? Mention it in this thread (if you prefer to have some discussion about it) or you can also PM any of the BHC through the BH Discord (which tends to be faster)
Ice Beam works on Greninja vs Rayquaza, as even a measly Expert Belt is enough to push it to a guaranteed 1HKO.
252 SpA Expert Belt Greninja-Ash Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 422-499 (101.9 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I agree; I mentioned adding Technician and Mega Launcher to M-Lucario and Ash-Greninja, respectively for their unique coverage options.
M-Luc + Technician means it can defeat its usual counters with Frost Breathe (Giratina, Yveltal, Zygarde), and Bonemerang (Primal-Groudon/Aegislash) while Steelworker and Unburden do not.
On mobile rn so will add some of my own stuff later
The fact that Ashninja cannot OHKO megaray without a boosting item when the opponent is 4x weak to ice and has not spectacular bulk is pretty disappointing. And that is what he meant.
Gonna nitpick snipe and say Modest Ashninja OHKO's ~50% unboosted. It's not consistent, but it's also not "cannot OHKO Ray."
252+ SpA Greninja-Ash Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 384-456 (92.7 - 110.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Before someone says "lol but who runs Modest?", I dunno when you run Modest over Timid, outside of speed-boosting sets, but considering most of the stuff you lose out on outspeeding Ashninja either loses or beats anyway (Xtwo, Gengar, Necrozma), it doesn't seem like a huge loss.
No opinion on whether it should have rose or not though, I'm just being a nit-picking jerk.
We all know there is a 2 of the same Ability Clause, as well as the fact some abilities are limited to just 1 Pokemon (Parental Bond).
We also know there are ways around that, such as Mega Evolving (I.e. Salamence-Mega), and Imposter. One thing we haven’t seen is Role Play, or Skill Swap.
Further if we can pass on an ability to the foe and copy it, such as Simple Beam or Entrainment (Parental Bond), we could potentially switch in and Trace an Ability to an ally that normally wouldn’t be allowed to have it in teambuilding. (Parental Bond Traced onto Zygarde-Complete is no joke).
Further, Alakazam’s Mega form gains Trace, so if you haven’t already used a Mega Evolution, you could have 3 Trace users on a team. In fact, you could technically give Alakazam’s Base form an ability (like Illusion) and then Mega Evolve into a Tracable Ability.
This means you have a potential of 5 Pokémon in your team with the same ability after switching in.
To avoid the foe from switching out as you switch in your Trace user, you would need a trapping move (Ghosts are immune to the trapping effect) and an Ability altering move (Entrainment, Skill Swap, Simple Beam, Worry Seed). Once complete you can slow pivot such as Parting Shot, U-Turn, or just switch and suddenly your best Pokémon can have the ability it was unable to obtain any other way. So something like Infestation + Entrainment/Skill Swap, Nature’s Madness, Seismic Toss/Night Shade could be an option for Kanghkahn-Mega as you switch to Zygarde Complete (Lagging Tail or a Fairy Type, stops Core Enforcer,).
Reasons for Trace:
1. Activates Immediately on Switch-in (prevents foe from switching out on the turn you would have used Skill Swap or Roleplay to obtain their ability)
2. Doesn’t take up a moveslot or an additional turn (I.e. triggers first turn out, or when Mega-Evolving into Trace)
3. Immune to Taunt/Enore/Choice Lock as it’s an ability rather than a move.
Beyond Parental Bond on Zygarde Complete, I have yet to come up with the perfect Trace strategy, but providing more -ates is something to consider.
Bad Abilties: Regenerator, Poison Heal, Quick Feet, Unburden, and other 1x use abilities that require too many factors to reliably reuse.
List of Trace limitations:
Trace cannot copy Trace, Forecast, Flower Gift, Multitype, Illusion, Zen Mode, Imposter, Stance Change, Power of Alchemy, Receiver, Schooling, Comatose, Shields Down, Disguise, RKS System, Battle Bond or Power Construct.
Trace cannot be copied by Role Play, Power of Alchemy, or Receiver. Entrainment will fail if used by a Pokémon with Trace.
Gonna nitpick snipe and say Modest Ashninja OHKO's ~50% unboosted. It's not consistent, but it's also not "cannot OHKO Ray."
252+ SpA Greninja-Ash Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 384-456 (92.7 - 110.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Before someone says "lol but who runs Modest?", I dunno when you run Modest over Timid, outside of speed-boosting sets, but considering most of the stuff you lose out on outspeeding Ashninja either loses or beats anyway (Xtwo, Gengar, Necrozma), it doesn't seem like a huge loss.
No opinion on whether it should have rose or not though, I'm just being a nit-picking jerk.
That’s actually all pretty fair since it doesn’t miss out on much. Also, if it were to go with a +Offense Nature with a Focus Sash (Simple/Dazzling: Shell Smash, Reversal, Power Trip, Frost Breathe), then it could still outspeed Ray before any boosts. Frost Breathe is Incase the foe used V-Create, or Dragon Ascent on a Contrary user like Rayquaza to boost Defenses.
On mobile rn so will add some of my own stuff later
The fact that Ashninja cannot OHKO megaray without a boosting item when the opponent is 4x weak to ice and has not spectacular bulk is pretty disappointing. And that is what he meant.
Stealth Rocks...
Also, what Sweeper set doesn’t use a Boosting Item, Move or Ability?
Is there an item Greninja would use on a 4 Attackmoveset besides Choice Specs, Life Orb, or I guess even Expert Belt? No.
Unless it’s a Simple/Dazzling set that uses Shell Smash with a 3 Attack moveset with Focus Sash / White Herb, it will always use a Boosting item. (Safety Goggles isn’t really an option unless it wants to be Spore Imposterproof, which would again be a 3 Attack moveset).
153 SpA is higher than SpA/Atk on other common and ranked glass cannons like Dazzling Pheromosa:
252 SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 324-384 (78.2 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
TLDR- If Dazzling Pheromosa can use Life Orb to secure KOs, including Ice Beam, why can’t Greninja? Being obligated to use an item it was going to use anyway doesn’t really matter.
Ice Beam KOs, with Item, or with SR.
Agree with D Rank, just thought the Mega Launcher (Ash-Greninja) and Technician (Lucario-Mega) could be added to the sets listed.
We all know there is a 2 of the same Ability (and -Ate) Clause, as well as the fact some abilities are limited to just 1 Pokemon (Parental Bond).
(other stuff)
Kartana @ Choice Band
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Power Whip
- V-create
- Bullet Punch
Kartana the 3rd strongest mon in all of pokemon and the 2nd most strongest pokemon that is viable in bh.
Kartana is immune to spore and toxic.With kartana's staggering base 181 attack paired with a choice band it hits like a train coming at you 500 MPH. Kartana can destroy stall teams if there not ready.Almost nothing can switch into this mon.
Kartana vs Flash Fire Steels
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Registeel: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Aegislash-Shield: 153-181 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 82% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Solgaleo: 195-229 (40.7 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 183-216 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO
Now with rocks up these are all practically 2hko's
The downfall of Kartana is its speed..but that can be saved by bullet punch!
Only use bullet punch vs the mons i'm about to show if they are weakened
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar-Mega: 190-225 (58.6 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rayquaza-Mega: 163-195 (39.3 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after
Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Diancie-Mega: 618-738 (203.9 - 243.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 163-195 (39.1 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 204-243 (49 - 58.4%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 330-388 (65.4 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Audino-Mega: 696-822 (169.7 - 200.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Yveltal: 423-499 (92.9 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 328-387 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 219-258 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (or just click power whip lol)
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Dialga: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 24.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gyarados-Mega: 618-728 (156.8 - 184.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stakataka: 216-253 (66.2 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
tl;dr rank this mon higher , nothing can switch into it and no one preps for it
BUT there is one counter...STEELIX MEGA! oh wait
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix-Mega: 160-189 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO
e: ok SW said def+ Flash fire Ferro with leftovers can improof and check this mon
To add to the post above, while it's true that Kartana is strong as heck (excuse my language), the set would be better with a few changes. For instance, U-turn over Bullet Punch, or at least slashed. We all know katana man forces a lot of switches and U-turn helps capitalize big-time, especially against dedicated counters like the Flash Fire Steels mentioned above. Also, since you miss out on those 2HKOs with Adamant anyway barring significant chip / rocks into some godlike rolls, making it Jolly. You still get the same kills / 2HKOs on the generic BH cast (minus big boss: [252 Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 297-351 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, but this is where U-turn chip comes in handy] and Dialga, but if it's min speed you outspeed and 2HKO with V-create) and with the added benefit of outspeeding:
-
(< Speed tie)
.
The following Pokemon are also slower assuming no +Speed natures:
-
(< Speed tie)
This is pretty significant. The difference between being able to send out your superpower OHKO machine vs. a Regigigas, Mega Ray or Xerneas or something and snatch a kill vs not being able to do that, gain less opportunities to attack and thus contribute less is massive.
also slash cc if u dont like ferrothorn: 252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 300-354 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
E: or better yet, Focus Punch if you're the realest man to ever walk this earth: 252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 374-442 (106.2 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
To add to the post above, while it's true that Kartana is strong as heck (excuse my language), the set would be better with a few changes. For instance, U-turn over Bullet Punch, or at least slashed. We all know katana man forces a lot of switches and U-turn helps capitalize big-time, especially against dedicated counters like the Flash Fire Steels mentioned above. Also, since you miss out on those 2HKOs with Adamant anyway barring significant chip / rocks into some godlike rolls, making it Jolly. You still get the same kills / 2HKOs on the generic BH cast (minus big boss: [252 Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 297-351 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, but this is where U-turn chip comes in handy] and Dialga, but if it's min speed you outspeed and 2HKO with V-create) and with the added benefit of outspeeding:
-
(< Speed tie)
.
The following Pokemon are also slower assuming no +Speed natures:
-
(< Speed tie)
This is pretty significant. The difference between being able to send out your superpower OHKO machine vs. a Regigigas, Mega Ray or Xerneas or something and snatch a kill vs not being able to do that, gain less opportunities to attack and thus contribute less is massive.
also slash cc if u dont like ferrothorn: 252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 300-354 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
E: or better yet, Focus Punch if you're the realest man to ever walk this earth: 252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 374-442 (106.2 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
U-turn is also a very good option but I like bullet punch to kill the mons that are on low hp that I can't outspeed.
Also the set I posted is just the most common set there are other sets like them with pblades or cc over vcrate because of ff steels being so popular
Prankster Giratina/Zyg also is a nice check to kartana, as it can either destiny bond it (and removing such a dangerous mon can be really helpful, even if you sacrifice one of your own mons for that!), cripple it with Will-o-Wisp before it can attack again or just use priority recover/strength sap (if you want to risk getting blocked by a magic bounce mon) to stall out Sunsteel Strikes. Unlike specialized stuff like Eviolite Doublade (Knock off HURTS!) those pranksters are also very useful in almost any other matchup.
Prankster Giratina/Zyg also is a nice check to kartana, as it can either destiny bond it (and removing such a dangerous mon can be really helpful, even if you sacrifice one of your own mons for that!), cripple it with Will-o-Wisp before it can attack again or just use priority recover/strength sap (if you want to risk getting blocked by a magic bounce mon) to stall out Sunsteel Strikes. Unlike specialized stuff like Eviolite Doublade (Knock off HURTS!) those pranksters are also very useful in almost any other matchup.
Um, Knock Off is hitting it as hard as Aegislash, since they both have the same Base Def and Aegislash has 1 higher Base HP.
You stick to Giratina and sacrifice, I’ll stay with an actual Counter that doesn’t require a Double KO. :)
Doublade does Aegislash’s job as good after a Knock Off, on the physical side, and much better before a Knock Off.
On the special side you don’t have to send it in, but if you do, Steel offers many more resistances than Dragon like Ice, Flying, Dragon, Fairy, and Rock, most of which Gira is weak to anyways. So will Giratina want to stay in any more than Doublade? No, but Doublade can survive and always KO thanks to the Steel Typing.
Doublade‘s Steel utility
Doublade can KO Diancie-Mega with Sunsteel Strike,
252 Atk Doublade Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Diancie-Mega: 436-516 (143.4 - 169.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Diancie Boomburst
252 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 140-165 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
Doublade will always 2HKO Kyurem-B
252 Atk Doublade Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-Black: 230-272 (50.6 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While it will always survive 3 Boombursts to stand its ground
252 SpA Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 114-134 (35.4 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Doublade Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Xerneas: 236-282 (51.7 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
For Rayquaza:
252 SpA Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 153-181 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO (15.6% to 3HKO)
Now look at Giratina taking the neutral hit:
252 SpA Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 268-316 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I
+ Extreme Speed before the Prankster Destiny Bond / Recover
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 204 Def Giratina: 174-205 (34.5 - 40.6%)
Thus:
Giratina takes special Water, Grass, and Electric moves better than Doublade, but...
Even on its weaker Special Defense, due to resistances alone, Doublade takes ALL Ice, Fairy, Dragon, Steel, Psychic, Flying, Rock, Poison, Bug, [Flash] Fire, etc. moves even better than Giratina.
Who is specialized now?
Prankster works better on Zygarde anyways, loses to Taunt, and if it targets the foe it loses to Dark Types. Ouch.
So what (s)he meant was that rather than using a niche mon like Doublade to check Kartana you can use the given Prankster Fat Dragon which provides much more utility than Doublade.
Prankster Fat Dragon provides you with a general set up check (you should have stuff to cover its weaknesses), an emergency check to something that has gone out of hand, and provides a very nice blanket check to attackers due to its ability to prankster heal which means as long as it gets a safe switch in it can recover off damage dealt to before.
Doublade, on the other hand, has very limited/outclassed roles, most notably outclassed by aegi on everything except defence. However, Knock Off is an extremely common utility move on stuff like Chansey and MAudino and an offensive STAB/Coverage on stuff like MTTar and Gigas. Losing Eviolite means Doublade is basically a worse Aegislash, if it wasn't almost completely outclassed already. Its special defence is also extremely mediocre, which means it is even more limited to what it can check (more below). In addition, because it must carry Eviolite, it is very susceptible to Spore, and through not-terrible luck even mons that get checked can blow past. While I certainly agree that Doublade has a niche in this metagame and acts as a very solid answer to the Kartana set posted above, I feel like it has much less utility than other answers (even other extremely niche answers may have more use).
Detailed explanations:
Um, Knock Off is hitting it as hard as Aegislash, since they both have the same Base Def and Aegislash has 1 higher Base HP. You stick to Giratina and sacrifice, I’ll stay with an actual Counter that doesn’t require a Double KO. :)
As said before it is an excellent "counter" (you have to scout the set first though and don't get surprised by random stuff like PBlades) but the idea is tina offers much much better role compression.
On the special side you don’t have to send it in, but if you do, Steel offers many more resistances than Dragon like Ice, Flying, Dragon, Fairy, and Rock, most of which Gira is weak to anyways. So will Giratina want to stay in any more than Doublade? No, but Doublade can survive and always KO thanks to the Steel Typing.
This is IMO a poor comparison, comparing a Steel type to a Fat Dragon is not a good idea as they serve different purposes. Also, its special defence is actually really bad so you should never switch it in on special moves.
Diancie Boomburst: 252 SpA Pixie Plate Pixilate Diancie-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 140-165 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
While it will always survive 3 Boombursts to stand its ground: 252 SpA Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-Black Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 114-134 (35.4 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
For Rayquaza: Doublade is rarely afraid: 252 SpA Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 153-181 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO
These calcs show that Doublade is super frail on the special side. First of on a few posts before you used a +Def nature and now you are switching to a +SpD nature although I don't think Relaxed matters too much against Kart. Against Diancie if you are getting 2HKOed by some chip (in BH defensive mons don't always stay at full health) then you risk a high chance of getting 2HKOed, also you are forced to recover and give him a free switch. For Kyu-B your calcs show that it gets 3HKOed not survives 3 Boombursts but yes this is a pretty solid answer to Kyu-B (why not run aegi though). Against Rayquaza it should be afraid since its getting 2HKOed most of the time from full and doesn't usually carry a move to hit it (I think you would run Recovery U-Turn Sunsteel Spectral?). This shows us that by having FF Doublade we need another check to -ate/ize which is annoying since FF Steel is generally a fantastic answer.
Now look at Giratina taking the neutral hit: 252 SpA Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 268-316 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+ Extreme Speed before the Pranksrer Destiny Bond / Recover
252 Atk Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 204 Def Giratina: 174-205 (34.5 - 40.6%)
Thus: Giratina takes special Water, Grass, and Electric moves better than Doublade, but...
Even on its weaker Special Defense, due to resistances alone, Doublade takes ALL Ice, Fairy, Dragon, Steel, Psychic, Flying, Rock, Poison, Bug, [Flash] Fire, etc. moves even better than Giratina.
Why would you ever send non-regenvest tina against -ate? I get this is a comparison between bulk but the fact that tina taking a neutral hit and still taking only ~6% more than a resisted hit with eviolite of doublade is pretty sad for doublade. Taking special attacks is not what Doublade is for, and this is the exact problem with doublade, you probably need another steel type to take the special hits.
Who is specialized now? Prankster works better on Zygarde anyways, and Prankster loses to Taunt, and if it targets the foe it loses to Dark Types. Ouch.
I actually like Prankster tina myself since compared to Zygod it has a less exploitable weakness to ice and also checks Pogre but they are pretty equal. How common do you see Taunt though? Also on Prankster mons you don't usually have target moves so the Dark types don't really matter.
Note that I don't actually think Doublade is a terrible mon. If your team has a final team slot and is desperately weak to Kartana while most other threats are covered then Doublade is a really good last mon but most of the times it is just outclassed by Aegislash and its special bulk as well as reliance on Eviolite holds it back a lot. (Chansey is different because no mon performs as well as it does since Blissey doesn't have physical bulk and it can still function well without it)
I used Doublade before even considering Kartana, which means I didn’t specialize it for Kartana, also the fact it is “as good” on the physical side without an Eviolite compared to its own Evolution.
(no one else thinks Aegislash isn’t good on its stats + resistances, which means it’s doing what most other Pokémon can’t - match it’s Evolution at worst).
You are wrong about it being worse at everything besides Defense- Aegislash Shield (it changes forms to have better offense or defense depending on King’s Shield), has worse offense, so it cannot threaten Kyurem, Diancie, etc. as much with Sunsteel Strike or MMX/Y, etc. with Spectral Thief.
Aegislash is able to better handle 11 types of moves better than Giratina, including things that Giratina can struggle with like Adaptability Band MMX’s Photon Geyser due to its resistances.
My point again was : “On the special side you don’t have to send it in, but if you do, Steel offers many more resistances than Dragon like Ice, Flying, Dragon, Fairy, and Rock, most of which Gira is weak to anyways. So will Giratina want to stay in any more than Doublade? No, but Doublade can survive and always KO thanks to the Steel Typing.”
I don’t intend to send just randomly send Doublade in on a Rayquaza, but if I have to after Rayquaza KOs something else (say I have a weakened Life Orb No Guard Mewtwo and Ray uses Extreme Speed, just as an example), if Rayquaza (say it has V-Create and knows I have Flash Fire), I can use Core Enforcer and disarm all of Rayquaza’s attacks because they become Normal, and force a switch.
Remember, Aerilate relies on Normal moves, something Ghost is immune to.
I have always used Core Enforcer for this reason alone. You assume that my set relies on Steel Resistances alone, well I do for the turn I use Core Enforcer and then it relies on its Ghost typing for Immunity. I remember I have posted the set I use before in these threads.
Safety Goggles is handled via Terrain support (Electric or Misty depending on my needs).
Your point on Prankster Recover on a safe switch is assuming the foe doesn’t have priority (Extreme Speed -ate, Triage Oblivion Wing), which is funny considering all the calcs I mentioned were -ate...
You can use Giratina and sacrifice it, or you can use Doublade to handle a wide variety of Physical threats. Mind you, Sunsteel Strike hits the Knock Off user you mentioned pretty hard:
252 Atk Doublade Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Audino-Mega: 198-234 (48.2 - 57%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO
Whose threatened more, Doublade becoming as good as Aegislash on Defense, and maintain a better Attack, or Audino who might get 2HKOed and will likely have to switch?
Also, Chansey usually uses Seismic Toss, which means it cannot truly threaten Doublade.
Zygarde is less likely to use Destiny Bond because of its defenses. Ice is the only true threat, and it can also come in on Stealth Rocks, Electric, and not fear the more common dark and ghost moves. I see Spectral Thief/Moongeist Beam much more than ice moves
Can you stop arguing about inane stuff? Doublade is not a good Pokemon. Its niche barely validates its use over anything else. I prefer my steels to actually be able to take boombursts and eat spores. If I wanted a defensive steel that had offensive pressure I would just use M-Metagross or Dusk Solgaleo. They check Kartana just as well and are leagues more viable than doublade.
What can take a Boomburst better than a Ghost Type that is immune after a Core Enforcer?
Did I lie or mislead anyone?
Aren’t my points based on calculations or fact?
I don’t view it is inane, because I found use for it. People use Aegislash; Doublade has its offensive and defensive advantages.
Not everyone can use other common options (such as adding more Pokémon that will share the same weaknesses on a team, I.e. a Dragon Type in Giratina with a Flying type in Yveltal; wouldn’t a Steel/Ghost that takes Rock, Fairy, and Ice moves for Yveltal be a better pairing than Giratina?)
I take the Likes of Doublade, in my initial short post, acknowledging it as agreeing. Sorry you disagree...
252 SpA Sky Plate Aerilate Rayquaza-Mega Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 153-181 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO
this is the weakest aerilate ray you're likely to see. according to the most recent usage stats, the only items above 5% that don't boost damage are focus sash and safety goggles, which are used almost exclusively on triage/contrary sets. outside of that you're dealing with life orb (28%) and choice specs (17%), which 2hko doublade without needing a roll.
to put it simply, doublade can't switch in on mega ray. even the weakest aerilate variant 2hkos it on the switch. i shouldn't have to explain why triage and contrary variants beat it even more effortlessly
this means that if you're running doublade on a fat team, you also need an -ate switchin like soundproof audino or something because otherwise ray takes someone to the shadow realm every time it comes in.
doublade's lack of special bulk can also be a pain against defensive teams. you can't stay in on defensive ogre and yveltal because they do so much with revelation dance.
to be fair doublade isn't completely unviable, because it does blanket check mons like band mmx, kyub, magic guard mega diancie, and kartana. but you're really overstating how viable it is in practice. it needs a ton of support and isn't something you could just throw on your team.
either way i think it's time to stop this discussion because it isn't related to the vr in any way.
ps: also can you stop with the passive aggressive stuff? i mean what is this
I agree to stop the discussion with this post, and hope everyone else does too... so I won’t counter your points because this is the final post on the topic anyway...
My responses to others’ assumption into thinking it only had 1 use was a fair one, because it was stated it had no use over Aegislash, ignoring its higher Attack stat, and matching Def stat and nearly equal HP (Eviolite or not). Solgaleo and other suggested Steel options lack STAB Spectral Thief and cannot come in freely on Fighting moves...
It wasn’t about Doublade becoming #1 at everything; I was showing a Pokémon with weaker stats can use Typing and Eviolite to more than make up for it. I mentioned a set that counters Kartana -which people thought didn’t have a real counter, and is a set I used myself. From there, I showed it can survive more than people thought.
Realize: I said it wouldn’t have to switch into Boomburst, I specifically said it would come in safely after a KO, take a hit and use Core Enforcer, making it Immune to -ate moves. ”What can take a Boomburst better than a Ghost Type that is immune after a Core Enforcer?”
Finally, passive agression came from multiple people, so be fair if you are going to step in...
If I wanted a defensive steel that had offensive pressure I would just use M-Metagross or Dusk Solgaleo. They check Kartana just as well and are leagues more viable than doublade.
I agree to stop the discussion with this post, and hope everyone else does too... so I won’t counter your points because this is the final post on the topic anyway... (1)(2)
My responses to others’ assumption into thinking it only had 1 use was a fair one, because it was stated it had no use over Aegislash, ignoring its higher Attack stat, and matching Def stat and nearly equal HP (Eviolite or not). Solgaleo and other suggested Steel options lack STAB Spectral Thief and cannot come in freely on Fighting moves... (3)(4)
It wasn’t about Doublade becoming #1 at everything; I was showing a Pokémon with weaker stats can use Typing and Eviolite to more than make up for it. (5) I mentioned a set that counters Kartana -which people thought didn’t have a real counter, and is a set I used myself. From there, I showed it can survive more than people thought. (6)
Realize: I said it wouldn’t have to switch into Boomburst, I specifically said it would come in safely after a KO(7), take a hit and use Core Enforcer, making it Immune to -ate moves. ”What can take a Boomburst better than a Ghost Type that is immune after a Core Enforcer?”(8)
Finally, passive agression came from multiple people, so be fair if you are going to step in...
They do not check it as well...
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solgaleo: 177-210 (37 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 157-186 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Metagross-Mega: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
VS
252+ Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 94-111 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 5.2% chance to 3HKO
Following numbered answers reference numbers added in quoted text.
1) You can't just ask to stop discussing just because you are not able to stand your points (I mean you can, but it won't work).
2) You aren't countering anything. You are just making up poor arguments about Doublade being viable (and it isn't) while disregarding evidence of the opposite.
3) Why do you even need STAB spectral thief, Doublade doesn't survive against boosted opponents, and even if it did it wouldn't outspeed after stealing some speed.
4) Solgaleo can switch on fighting moves because it is neutral to them, ditto for necrozma DM, Celesteela sometimes and Aegislash doesn't care. Solgaleo can even emergency switch on unboosted MMX as it avoids the 2HKO, but again it isn't reliable.
5) Against a Kartana, so would a Magneton. Or FF Swadlon to the old Groudon Primal.
6) It isn't a counter. Kartana brings Precipice Blades instead of Bullet Punch because it is confident of speed control or Wood Hammer because kyogre is still 2hkoed by sunsteel, and all in all wants to trash FF steels because the improof isn't one of them.
252+ Atk Choice Band Kartana Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Doublade: 220-260 (68.3 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Also, it would be wise to consider that so far, we spoke about 1 Kartana set. Tinted Lens is threatening as hell as it invalidates FF steels as switchins.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Kartana Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Doublade: 136-162 (42.2 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Given that in BH defensive mons mostly never switch in with full HP, Doublade is fried, just like anything else (talking about common steels).
But there's also is Unburden and that can run whatever coverage it wants 'cause it is selfproof when it eats the berry. At +6 nothing is safe, also because Kartana gets past unaware too. Even +6 Knock Off would OHKO Doublade.
Doublade is "countering" Kartana only on a set, and only if it doesn't run coverage against one of the possible check Kartana has. That doesn't sound reliable at all.
7) If your plan to check -ate is sacking something every time it gets in, I have bad news for you.
8) Every -ate can bypass this. First you are taking the first boomburst and that means you lose 40% of HP. Then;
Mray can carry Draco Meteor (LO has chances of OHKOing Giratina so it has reason to do such a thing) and chance are it will KO Doublade with it. Or moongeist because shed. Diancie cannot be core enforced by anything except memes, so -ate isn't stopped. It may be afraid of eating (and succumbing to) a sunsteel but if it knows it can finish Doublade it will stay in and KO Doublade regardless of a possible Core enforcer. Kyurem usually runs volt switch so it doesn't even lose momentum. And lastly (as it the least important and the rarest) Doublade doesn't resist Galvanize so it is OHKOed by Xurk and Zekrom heavily damages it.
Kartana will never see that S ranking now that Doublade is around...
But seriously can we table this discussion? I think the point has been driven home on all sides by now. Kartana hits even resists hard given the set it runs and Doublade gets its defenses boosted by Eviolite to become a niche physical wall while retaining terrible special bulk.
As far as VR goes, I could see Kartana moving up to B+ or A- as it is efficient at punching holes in walls with its banded sets or cleaning up teams with its drumming sets. Unprepared teams should be scared of Kartana and for good reason.
