Balanced Hackmons Viability Rankings MK III

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I think mega blaziken is the highest BST/Attack fire/fighting type which makes it have the best niche for Super Power & V-create STAB bombing Contratory.
So honestly, it could probably get D mention out of that factor, cause while as STAB V-create is nice that many other contratory users have, many still tend to lack STAB SuperPower that can be a big help against flash fire steel types at times that could normally survive non stab super power.

Tho it still isn't -THAT- great it still is a niche tho.
(grats on 100th post in this thread) It Gets Super Power And V-Create As S.T.A.Bs but it is very outclassed by all other contrary users, (from what ive seen) my previously mentioned Pdon, Mega-Lati@s, and I've Seen Contrary Mega-Mewtwo X/Y. (speaking of mega-latios, it would be countered by it).
I Agree With Your Statement, But Since Mega-Blaziken Will Probably Need Alot Of Team Support, Things To Take Care Of Mega-Gengar, and Previously Mentioned Lati Twins, It Could Be D- or maybe D if it is lucky, but if anything it might just stay unranked
 
It has a good Contrary typing and it also has a higher speed than most other Fire Contrary users, giving it a speed jump over them which can help with certain threats, such as smacking PH Regigias before it uses Spore, something Pdon cannot do without a Scarf if both have similar speed investment. I've also seen Blazi run other effective sets, so as a Desolate Lands V-Create nuke with the help of a Choice Band or LO.

It's definitely D-rank worthy. Possibly C-, but I'm not going to argue for that.
 

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
*bumping this thread*

Regarding Blaziken-Mega: It actually used to be D Rank in the first iteration of this ranking, but we decided to remove it because it is largely outclassed by Groudon-Primal. The only thing going for it is the STAB in Superpower, which really isn't that great when you consider that Groudon has basically everything else better, including massive bulk, better dual STAB (Fire / Ground is unresisted), and arguably better defensive typing. Basically, you're losing out on a ton of bulk just for the ability to get STAB on fighting, which isn't really that relevant as you'll probably be spamming V-Create most of the time anyways.

Some other things I'd like to bring up for discussion:
At the time it was originally ranked, Hoopa-U was placed very tentatively at C+ because it was fairly new and had not been tested very much. How has it fared so in the current meta? Is it able to properly take advantage of its massive attacking stats and unique signature move, or is its low speed and frail bulk too much of a hindrance to effectively use it?
It was recently brought to my attention in the BH CCaT thread that Ho-oh is largely outclassed by Groudon-Primal, especially in offensive roles. Does it have a strong enough niche to stay in C Rank or should it be moved down? The main niche it has a unique defensive typing and much more special bulk than Groudon. However, its typing also means that it is hugely hindered by rocks if it does not use Magic Guard as its ability, and using Magic Guard can take away potential utility in other abilities.
I think we've all agreed that this powerhouse by no means should remain in D Rank, but we haven't yet reached a consensus on exactly where to place it. To summarize our previous discussion, Deoxys-A has the potential to deal massive damage with its insanely high attacking stats and base speed. It also has the unique niche of being able to kill Imposter Chansey due to its sheer lack of any bulk at all. However, all of this hinges on keeping Deoxys-A at full HP so that its Focus Sash stays intact, which requires a great amount of team support.

Edit: Also updated the format of the ranking changes
 
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I haven't used Hoopa nor have I ran into one played well yet in what laddering I've managed to do lately, so no comment there.

Ho-Oh is immune to Precipice Blades, Earth Power, Thousand Waves, and Earthquake, something Groudon-P wishes it had. Thousand Arrows do hurt its viability a serious amount though. On the Flying-side, it has a niche over Rayquaza in that, while the latter hits harder, Ho-Oh is naturally immune to burns without resorting to a Lum Berry, giving it a bit more flexibility if for physical Aerilate. (Not to mention that special bulk.) (Also hits harder than Groudon's Aerilate too.) Rock are a pain in the butt without Magic Guard, but it's not like the old MG + LO/TO set with Flare Blitz, Brave Bird, and the like is bad by any means. I feel that Ho-Oh is at home in C-rank, based on the description C-rank gives. If 1k Arrows wasn't a thing, I'd propose a move to C+ maybe since Ground is such a common attacking type, but since it is, I say no change.

Deo-A's offensive power is surely note-worthy, but it needs lots of support. You cannot just throw this out and expect results since it's so easy to KO and legitimately fears stuff like Volt Switches from Cresselia that otherwise do chip damage to anything else. (0 SpA Cresselia Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-A: 123-145 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO || 0- Atk Cresselia U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-A: 290-342 (120.3 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO || Let's not even mention the minimized bulk version.) As such, it requires very careful play to get it in at the right, and safe, moment for it to wreck havoc. And even then, it requires even more careful play if you intend to do more than a 1 for 1 trade off. As such, I say it's definitely better than D, but the amount of support and care needed definitely precludes it from any B if we're actually holding to the descriptions of the tiers. I vote C-, but I wouldn't be opposed to C.
 
I'd like to suggest moving Blissey from A to B rank, because it's severely outclassed by Chansey. Blissey has 5 more base HP, which is not significant enough to warrant running, when you consider the benefits of running Chansey. The reasons to run Chansey over Blissey are Eviolite and Lucky Punch, which are arguably the best items for an Imposter to run in BH. The alternatives include Leftovers (which IMO is outclassed by Eviolite due to increased bulk and survivability), a Plate, a Choice item, a Toxic Orb, or a Red Card. I'd argue that all of these items are useful for an Imposter to run (except Leftovers), but by running them on Chansey you bluff having Eviolite or Lucky Punch with no downside. If I see a Blissey in BH, I know it doesn't have an Eviolite or a Lucky Punch (because they don't work on it) and I play differently because of that. Running Chansey instead of Blissey for Imposter has a good benefit and no downsides.

Edit: Also now that AWailOfATail quit, is someone going to replace him?
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
I'd like to suggest moving Blissey from A to B rank, because it's severely outclassed by Chansey. Blissey has 5 more base HP, which is not significant enough to warrant running, when you consider the benefits of running Chansey. The reasons to run Chansey over Blissey are Eviolite and Lucky Punch, which are arguably the best items for an Imposter to run in BH. The alternatives include Leftovers (which IMO is outclassed by Eviolite due to increased bulk and survivability), a Plate, a Choice item, a Toxic Orb, or a Red Card. I'd argue that all of these items are useful for an Imposter to run (except Leftovers), but by running them on Chansey you bluff having Eviolite or Lucky Punch with no downside. If I see a Blissey in BH, I know it doesn't have an Eviolite or a Lucky Punch (because they don't work on it) and I play differently because of that. Running Chansey instead of Blissey for Imposter has a good benefit and no downsides.

Edit: Also now that AWailOfATail quit, is someone going to replace him?
as ive previously mentioned, just because its "outclassed" does not mean its "not good" even without the eviolite boost, or lucky punch on it, blissey is still a huge threat to face and can sweep you if you arent prepared for it. blissey fits in A because it needs next to 0 teambuilding effort for it to be effective, and although it may be outclassed by chansey, its clearly still A rank worthy. aka, if chansey was gone, would blissey really be B rank? doubtful. it would probably be S ranked like its sister if anything.
 
as ive previously mentioned, just because its "outclassed" does not mean its "not good" even without the eviolite boost, or lucky punch on it, blissey is still a huge threat to face and can sweep you if you arent prepared for it. blissey fits in A because it needs next to 0 teambuilding effort for it to be effective, and although it may be outclassed by chansey, its clearly still A rank worthy. aka, if chansey was gone, would blissey really be B rank? doubtful. it would probably be S ranked like its sister if anything.
I find that reasoning flawed when you have something like this as a description for D-rank:
" These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that."
Blissey is usable, but it has no real niche because everything it does it outclassed by chansey and it can only do one specific task outside of that, which is final gambit. Yes if chansey didn't exist blissey would be S rank, but the thing is chansey DOES exist and it being better than blissey in almost every single way makes blissey ALOT less viable than A-rank, the hypothetical that chansey doesn't exist should play no part in blisseys ranking.
 
as ive previously mentioned, just because its "outclassed" does not mean its "not good" even without the eviolite boost, or lucky punch on it, blissey is still a huge threat to face and can sweep you if you arent prepared for it. blissey fits in A because it needs next to 0 teambuilding effort for it to be effective, and although it may be outclassed by chansey, its clearly still A rank worthy. aka, if chansey was gone, would blissey really be B rank? doubtful. it would probably be S ranked like its sister if anything.
Yeah but Chansey isn't gone. I agree that if Chansey was banned, Blissey would shoot to S rank really quickly, but that doesn't mean it should be S or A rank on its own. At the moment, Blissey is completely outclassed by Chansey, as in there is no reason to run Blissey over Chansey in the current meta. As I said in my last post, the 5 base HP difference does not allow it to live any relevant attacks in the current meta, and Chansey bluffs having a standard item, while in actuality running a different item (possibly). I don't really see why it shouldn't be a lower tier.
 

Kit Kasai

Love colored magic
I kinda agree with that actually, as the only thing Blissey can really run that makes it better than Chansey is Toxic Orb or Leftovers, neither of which are extremely useful. The former is very situational, the latter is not very useful considering how fast paced and high damage the current meta is. That being said, the Toxic Orb is extremely useful against certain teams, as many poison healers rely on the opponent not being poisoned to be imposterproof. As I wuv you said, this type of niche situational advanatage but otherwise being completely outclassed should put it in D rank.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
as ive previously mentioned, just because its "outclassed" does not mean its "not good" even without the eviolite boost, or lucky punch on it, blissey is still a huge threat to face and can sweep you if you arent prepared for it. blissey fits in A because it needs next to 0 teambuilding effort for it to be effective, and although it may be outclassed by chansey, its clearly still A rank worthy. aka, if chansey was gone, would blissey really be B rank? doubtful. it would probably be S ranked like its sister if anything.
since there is no species clause there is actually no reason to use bliss so too bad
 
While I pretty much agree with the arguements for Blissey, a little unrelated but, people still care about bluffing Eviolite? With it or not, Chansey is still bulkier than 90% of its opponents, save Impostering opposing without Eviolite Blissey (ironically) and I'm never going to make or not make a play against an Imposter under the assumption it has Eviolite or not, since if it's healthy then my sweeper can't win the majority of the time anyway unless it's Imposter resistant/immune, in which case your item doesn't matter if it's not a Plate or Scarf or status orb in some circumstances and in others not at all. Plus any competent player is going to be gunning to remove your Imposter(s) item anyway if their team has the means to do so, since the item is probably one of the most important components to the Imposter.

But yeah, again, I agree with Blissey dropping. Chansey beats it except with Leftovers, Toxic on a PH set, rare stuff like Aqua Ring/Ingrain, or if you're not running Lucky Eviolite and don't care about bluffing them.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
your name upsets me.
Why did you feel the need to post this in this thread? The Leftovers and Life Orb guys annoy me when I'm trying to write a set, but I don't clutter up threads with meaningless comments.

So this is on topic, I agree that Blissey should drop as Chansey outclasses it 99% of the time due to access to Lucky Punch and Eviolite or bluffing these items.
 
While I pretty much agree with the arguements for Blissey, a little unrelated but, people still care about bluffing Eviolite? With it or not, Chansey is still bulkier than 90% of its opponents, save Impostering opposing without Eviolite Blissey (ironically) and I'm never going to make or not make a play against an Imposter under the assumption it has Eviolite or not, since if it's healthy then my sweeper can't win the majority of the time anyway unless it's Imposter resistant/immune, in which case your item doesn't matter if it's not a Plate or Scarf or status orb in some circumstances and in others not at all. Plus any competent player is going to be gunning to remove your Imposter(s) item anyway if their team has the means to do so, since the item is probably one of the most important components to the Imposter.

But yeah, again, I agree with Blissey dropping. Chansey beats it except with Leftovers, Toxic on a PH set, rare stuff like Aqua Ring/Ingrain, or if you're not running Lucky Eviolite and don't care about bluffing them.
It's not so much about bluffing eviolite as it is not revealing the plate/scarf/orb etc until it's too late.


Why did you feel the need to post this in this thread? The Leftovers and Life Orb guys annoy me when I'm trying to write a set, but I don't clutter up threads with meaningless comments.

So this is on topic, I agree that Blissey should drop as Chansey outclasses it 99% of the time due to access to Lucky Punch and Eviolite or bluffing these items.
Wow rude.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
While I pretty much agree with the arguements for Blissey, a little unrelated but, people still care about bluffing Eviolite? With it or not, Chansey is still bulkier than 90% of its opponents, save Impostering opposing without Eviolite Blissey (ironically) and I'm never going to make or not make a play against an Imposter under the assumption it has Eviolite or not, since if it's healthy then my sweeper can't win the majority of the time anyway unless it's Imposter resistant/immune, in which case your item doesn't matter if it's not a Plate or Scarf or status orb in some circumstances and in others not at all. Plus any competent player is going to be gunning to remove your Imposter(s) item anyway if their team has the means to do so, since the item is probably one of the most important components to the Imposter.

But yeah, again, I agree with Blissey dropping. Chansey beats it except with Leftovers, Toxic on a PH set, rare stuff like Aqua Ring/Ingrain, or if you're not running Lucky Eviolite and don't care about bluffing them.
I kinda agree with that actually, as the only thing Blissey can really run that makes it better than Chansey is Toxic Orb or Leftovers, neither of which are extremely useful. The former is very situational, the latter is not very useful considering how fast paced and high damage the current meta is. That being said, the Toxic Orb is extremely useful against certain teams, as many poison healers rely on the opponent not being poisoned to be imposterproof. As I wuv you said, this type of niche situational advanatage but otherwise being completely outclassed should put it in D rank.
I find that reasoning flawed when you have something like this as a description for D-rank:
" These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that."
Blissey is usable, but it has no real niche because everything it does it outclassed by chansey and it can only do one specific task outside of that, which is final gambit. Yes if chansey didn't exist blissey would be S rank, but the thing is chansey DOES exist and it being better than blissey in almost every single way makes blissey ALOT less viable than A-rank, the hypothetical that chansey doesn't exist should play no part in blisseys ranking.
the problem i have with blisseys ranking, is although it fits D rank half perfect...it fits A ranks description perfectly:

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the BH metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

blissey might be outclassed, but it CLEARLY fits word for word with this description. eviolite or not, imposter is a huge threat. a lot better of a description then only 50% of the D rank (like really...i dont think blissey needs massive team support to be effective.) imposter is incredibly hard to rank because really, imposter cant solidify a niche other then holding items. it might be outclassed, but just because its outclassed, doesn't mean its suddenly "trash" to use. see the mindset you people are using is judging which pokemon outclass which. which is false, because this is a VIABILITY thread:
capable of working successfully; feasible.

the problem with imposter being rated is that its the "outcast" of the group. despite having no solid niche over chansey, its STILL good at what it does. its not like infernape vs emboar, where emboar is complete trash in OU and will never solidify a niche dispite being nearly the same barring its lack of speed, (bad example) blissey is actually slightly worse then chansey due to lacking a good item, but the thing is, its still a threat, it still forces the ENTIRE tier to mold around it. it fits A ranks description way better then D rank, because as i said before, half of d ranks info is completely false in regards to bliss.

but hey, if you want it D rank, who am i to argue with the community.
 
the problem i have with blisseys ranking, is although it fits D rank half perfect...it fits A ranks description perfectly:

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the BH metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

blissey might be outclassed, but it CLEARLY fits word for word with this description. eviolite or not, imposter is a huge threat. a lot better of a description then only 50% of the D rank (like really...i dont think blissey needs massive team support to be effective.) imposter is incredibly hard to rank because really, imposter cant solidify a niche other then holding items. it might be outclassed, but just because its outclassed, doesn't mean its suddenly "trash" to use. see the mindset you people are using is judging which pokemon outclass which. which is false, because this is a VIABILITY thread:
capable of working successfully; feasible.

the problem with imposter being rated is that its the "outcast" of the group. despite having no solid niche over chansey, its STILL good at what it does. its not like infernape vs emboar, where emboar is complete trash in OU and will never solidify a niche dispite being nearly the same barring its lack of speed, (bad example) blissey is actually slightly worse then chansey due to lacking a good item, but the thing is, its still a threat, it still forces the ENTIRE tier to mold around it. it fits A ranks description way better then D rank, because as i said before, half of d ranks info is completely false in regards to bliss.

but hey, if you want it D rank, who am i to argue with the community.
Can I ask why Kyogre isn't even ranked when it's almost as good as P-kyo then? Oh that's right, it's because theres ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason to use Kyogre over P-Kyo even though it can do similiar roles almost as well and probably fits somewhere just below it in the rankings, the only reason I even suggested D rank is because of the final gambit set, otherwise I don't think it should be ranked at all. Both blissey and kyogre can do things in the meta, but theres no reason to encourage new players to use either one when there are two pokemon that directly outclass them in almost every aspect.

And as for the blissey fitting A rank better than D regardless of chansey, it fits S rank better than A by what you're saying but you're not suggesting it moves up.
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
Can I ask why Kyogre isn't even ranked when it's almost as good as P-kyo then? Oh that's right, it's because theres ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason to use Kyogre over P-Kyo even though it can do similiar roles almost as well and probably fits somewhere just below it in the rankings, the only reason I even suggested D rank is because of the final gambit set, otherwise I don't think it should be ranked at all. Both blissey and kyogre can do things in the meta, but theres no reason to encourage new players to use either one when there are two pokemon that directly outclass them in almost every aspect.

And as for the blissey fitting A rank better than D regardless of chansey, it fits S rank better than A by what you're saying but you're not suggesting it moves up.
...fair enough.

seriously though, im going to quit this project, not due to this debate, i understand why its being argued and it makes sense, i just couldn't care less about a project like this anymore because its completely opinion based. besides, i'm horribly rusty on bh having not played it for like..a month and not playing seriously since like..a year ago, and you all seem to know your stuff, so i can entrust this thread to you guys. so good luck.
 
your name upsets me.
Well, you're welcome to change yours. I was here first.



More seriously though, I think I Wuv You basically explained it with the Kyogre explanation. Said same logic could be applied to a lot of stuff that's viable but otherwise outclassed, like regular Mewtwo. Also, if Imposter is enough reason to get ranked, then we need to rank Pikachu, Clamperl, and Marowak too.


Also, normal Kyogre actually has a niche over Kyo-P. If you're running Primordial Seas Kyo-P for whatever reason and also using the Blue Orb for Trick immunity, then you're better off using regular Kyogre with an ability like Magic Guard to get a free switch into hazards. Intimidate and Download might work too, but I've not tested it. But ummm... yeah, it's otherwise completely and entirely outclassed despite being perfectly viable.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Since it's still not anywhere, I'd like to nominate Mega Steelix for D Rank. I have been using the RegenVest set lately in a partnership with Mega Diancie to dispatch Imposters of it as well as most other -ates. It can't switch in on Kyu-B like other Steels can, but it has slightly more bulk than Mega Aggron. I've been using it to spread status via Nuzzle to allow POgre and PDon to set up or rip holes respectively. It has been functioning as an excellent pivot. With some attack investment, it can OHKO Mega Rayquaza with Icicle Crash, as well as Mega Diancie via Gear Grind. Sacred Fire is another option to spread burns.

Steelix-Mega @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 212 Atk / 44 SpD
Careful Nature
- Nuzzle
- U-turn
- Gear Grind
- Icicle Crash

The EVs are the ones I have been using, and they avoid the 2HKO from Aerilate Sharp Beak Boomburst, allowing you to switch in and OHKO with Icicle Crash. Gear Grind is for Mega Diancie, while also hitting Kyu-B (but you can't switch in on Kyu-B). U-Turn is obvious for momentum and my team appreciates Nuzzle to Paralyze faster Pokemon so MegaLix's teammates can wreck. Like I said earlier, Sacred Fire is usable over or in tandem with Nuzzle for more status spreading, burning Shedinja, and to hit opposing Steel types. The thing I like about Mega Steelix over Mega Aggron is its Ground typing. While this makes it more weak to POgre and Ice types, it gives it a nice Electric immunity allowing it to switch in on Bolt Strikesand Nuzzles before pivoting out. Here's a replay of a battle I just had where MegaLix spread status and annoyed the other team to allow PDon to finish up:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/balancedhackmons-242927727
The Paras on Arceus and Deoxys in particular were helpful, while it also allowed Lugia to be weakened.


I understand that Mega Aggron or Registeel will outclass Mega Steelix in the majority of situations, but I feel like the Ground typing and ability to switch in and KO Mega Ray is a nice niche for Mega Steelix and enough to give it D Rank.
 

Funbot28

Sé que a ti te gustan mis labios de fresa
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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A+ to S
Honestly with the new introduction of the suspects, I believe Primal Kyogre should rise to S for the time being.
 

wishes

push emission
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

A+ to S
Honestly with the new introduction of the suspects, I believe Primal Kyogre should rise to S for the time being.
Suspect testing should not reflect viability in any way. Rankings should reflect the current metagame, not one afterwards. Just because it's suspect doesn't make it automatically S Rank.

Anyways. I support the move, regardless, as Primal Kyogre is incredibly powerful. The Poison Heal set decimates teams all on its own, and it has the capability to run sets such as Coil to get around typical counters. Its versatile, has a centralizing effect on the metagame, and is the best Pokemon in the tier in my opinion. Should definitely rise to S Rank, though not because it's being suspected.
 

Funbot28

Sé que a ti te gustan mis labios de fresa
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Suspect testing should not reflect viability in any way. Rankings should reflect the current metagame, not one afterwards. Just because it's suspect doesn't make it automatically S Rank.

Anyways. I support the move, regardless, as Primal Kyogre is incredibly powerful. The Poison Heal set decimates teams all on its own, and it has the capability to run sets such as Coil to get around typical counters. Its versatile, has a centralizing effect on the metagame, and is the best Pokemon in the tier in my opinion. Should definitely rise to S Rank, though not because it's being suspected.
My mentality is not always like that, but in this case it is the most appropriate
 
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