BH Balanced Hackmons

[anaconja]

This is interesting, to say the least.

new info that could get into bh if it is added to the main games

(underline=cool, bold=epic, bold italic=WTF)
- Several moves now have adjusted power. Absorb: 20 -> 40 with 15 PP, Mega Drain: 40 -> 75 with 10 PP, Solar Beam: 120 -> 200, and Sky Attack: 140 -> 200
- Friendship now affects stats as well. Higher friendship means higher stats (up to +10% on all stats except HP)
- A lot of new moves
- Zippy Zap is 50/100 Electric Physical with +2 priority and a Level 6 crit stage
- Splishy Splash is 90/100 Water Special with a 30% chance to paralyze
- Floaty Fall is 90/95 Flying Physical with a 30% chance to flinch
- Pika Papow is an Electric Special Return-like move which does not miss
- Bouncy Bubble is a 90/100 Water Special which heals 50% of inflicted damage
- Buzzy Buzz is a 90/100 Electric Special with a 100% chance to paralyze
- Sizzly Slide is a 90/100 Fire Physical with a 100% chance to burn
- Glitzy Glow is a 90/100 Psychic Special
- Baddy Bad is a 90/100 Dark Special
- Sappy Seed is a 90/100 Grass Physical with a 100% chance to cause Leech Seed(?)
- Freezy Frost is a 90/100 Ice Special
- Sparkly Swirl is a 90/100 Fairy Special
- Veevee Volley is a Normal Physical Return-like move which does not miss
- Double Iron Bash is a 60/100 Steel Physical move with a 30% chance to flinch which hits twice (and potentially an extra effect)

Some thoughts on these potential additions and changes:

• Sun teams y/y (252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile-Mega Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 271-319 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
• Zippy Zap sounds epic on Tough Claws or mixed Technician Zekrom
• Bouncy Bubble can make way for Triage Kyogre-Primal
• WTF 100% INFERNO AND ZAP CANNON These moves are gonna be extremely good, mostly Sizzly Slide killing any reason for Sacred Fire and allowing for guaranteed burns without the hax (85% wow is complete bull)
• Sappy Seed could have a niche on PH Kyogre-Primal so it can beat Water-types and Shedinja. Makes it less selfimposterproof, though.
• Kartana is BROKEN. 252 Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 354-422 (55.6 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and then add on that extra 51% to flinch.

 

[Rumors]

I assume these won't be added to the main series since GameFreak has yet to patch in backwards compatability even within the same Gen (such as ORAS Megas for X/Y), so we'd either get them in main series Gen 8 or in a LGPE version of BH, both of which would likely be dramatically different anyway.

But heck, for funsies and assuming no bans...

I see Solar Beam probably being used more on Primaldon to break Fur Coat water-types, even with Jolly/Adamant. I mean, look at this...

252- SpA Groudon-Primal Solar Beam (BP 200) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 246-290 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sizzly Slide would probably spell the death of most physical attackers in the meta, since any wall could use it to neuter opposing physical attackers. We might see more Regenvest users using it to check physical attackers as well, freeing a team up to not need Fur Coat. Pokemon like MMX might run Guts and Poison Heal more for status protection over Tough Claws or maybe even Shield Dust. Near-HO teams might bring a cleric instead since their ideal matches would be too short for the low PP of Armoatherapy to matter. Primaldon and Mega-Blaze would thrive. Shedinja would be forced back to Lum Berry, if its used at all.

Not sure on Buzzy Buzz's impact on the meta since Nuzzle/Glare don't have any significant impact at present. The best offensive user is probably Manectric, but it still has lowish attack power to make foregoing Boomburst difficult. It'd probably be used over Nuzzle on Pokemon with decent Special Attack. At the very least, it won't fully outclass Glare.

Pikapow would let Zekrom run an accurate, non-recoil move not reliant on an ability, depending on its base power. It'd still compete with Bolt Strike though unless it's BP 110 or higher.

Sappy Seed would probably be a staple on stally teams, since it eliminates Leech Seed's biggest drawback of being bouncable. The move would bring viability to Mega-Venusaur as a wall (4x resist, Seed immune) and Sceptile offensively for the same reason, but not likely much.

Serene Grace Double Iron Bash would be the new cancer. Pair it with Buzzy Buzz for maximum rage. I think it'd probably get quick banned for being bullcrappy like Chatter.

The rest of the moves I don't really see impacting the meta much or at all. A lot of the BP 90 moves are strictly inferior to moves that already exist due to them lacking secondary effects.


As for Melmetal, I don't think it'd replace Solgaleo, at least not in all cases. AV Solgaleo has a chance to survive certain KO brackets that Melmetal falls into, judging by a couple of quick calcs. Not to mention Psychic typing has a few advantages (and disadvantages) such as Fighting neutrality and 4x Psychic resist.


252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: 220-260 (46 - 54.3%) -- 54.7% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Registeel (using Melmetal's stats): 266-314 (56.1 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Solgaleo: 144-171 (30.1 - 35.7%) -- 35.3% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Registeel: 174-205 (36.7 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I think it'd threaten Registeel's position more, considering AV Registeel already doesn't threaten Solgaleo/Dusk Mane.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

What about the base power of solar blade and giga drain?

Also, what about Technician or even Serene Grace over Steelworker for Double Iron Bash?

 

[Magii]

Melmetal's stats just got released.

Melmetal: 135/143/143/080/065/034

To me this is huge, it'll probably replace Solgaleo and NDM as a RegenVester I feel. Having pure Steel, that godsend of a speed and that physical bulk is super huge; definitely gonna be the first pick I go to for a RegenVester in the tier.

What do you all think?

I’m sorry but lmao wtf

I’ll edit in my thoughts later

 

[Yveltal for PU]

Wonder if Sappy Seed will be affected by Triage? Maybe useful on Triage Kartana over/with Horn Leech? Yes? No? Also, Mega Sceptile, wow that’s a big increase to Solar Beam. I can see desolate land Sceptile being cool, allowing it to spam a 200 BP move and also boosted fire coverage, or setting Drought so that the rest of your team doesn’t have to put up as much of a fight against Primal Kyogre. Also, could the friendships affecting stats possibly be used at all for purposeful underspeeding? I guess it depends on how much it drops according to your happiness, but I think that a few points less happy of a mon to get it to purposefully under speed something else is really nice.

 

[Kadabrium]

• Teleport now -6 priority and in-battle switches the user with another Pokemon on the same team.

Melmetal itself though would just be another competition to steelix and aggron. Its special defense is higher but still fairly low (lower than celesteela and aegislash). I dont see it becoming too special

 

[Deleted User 91486]

It has way more HP, more attack and a better movepool.

 

[Rumors]

How does one have a better movepool in BH?

 

[Storm Eagle]

Melmetal's stats just got released.

Melmetal: 135/143/143/080/065/034

To me this is huge, it'll probably replace Solgaleo and NDM as a RegenVester I feel. Having pure Steel, that godsend of a speed and that physical bulk is super huge; definitely gonna be the first pick I go to for a RegenVester in the tier.

What do you all think?

Necrozma-DM? Definitely. Solgaleo? I very highly doubt it. Solgaleo has 137/89 Special bulk. That is a rather big difference at level 100. That most certainly isn't getting replaced by Melmetal. Melmetal however does outperform Necrozma-DM in every way except for Attack.

 

[Talpr0ne]

This is interesting, to say the least.

new info that could get into bh if it is added to the main games

(underline=cool, bold=epic, bold italic=WTF)
- Several moves now have adjusted power. Absorb: 20 -> 40 with 15 PP, Mega Drain: 40 -> 75 with 10 PP, Solar Beam: 120 -> 200, and Sky Attack: 140 -> 200
- Friendship now affects stats as well. Higher friendship means higher stats (up to +10% on all stats except HP)
- A lot of new moves
- Zippy Zap is 50/100 Electric Physical with +2 priority and a Level 6 crit stage
- Splishy Splash is 90/100 Water Special with a 30% chance to paralyze
- Floaty Fall is 90/95 Flying Physical with a 30% chance to flinch
- Pika Papow is an Electric Special Return-like move which does not miss
- Bouncy Bubble is a 90/100 Water Special which heals 50% of inflicted damage
- Buzzy Buzz is a 90/100 Electric Special with a 100% chance to paralyze
- Sizzly Slide is a 90/100 Fire Physical with a 100% chance to burn
- Glitzy Glow is a 90/100 Psychic Special
- Baddy Bad is a 90/100 Dark Special
- Sappy Seed is a 90/100 Grass Physical with a 100% chance to cause Leech Seed(?)
- Freezy Frost is a 90/100 Ice Special
- Sparkly Swirl is a 90/100 Fairy Special
- Veevee Volley is a Normal Physical Return-like move which does not miss
- Double Iron Bash is a 60/100 Steel Physical move with a 30% chance to flinch which hits twice (and potentially an extra effect)

Some thoughts on these potential additions and changes:

• Sun teams y/y (252 SpA Choice Specs Sceptile-Mega Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 271-319 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
• Zippy Zap sounds epic on Tough Claws or mixed Technician Zekrom
• Bouncy Bubble can make way for Triage Kyogre-Primal
• WTF 100% INFERNO AND ZAP CANNON These moves are gonna be extremely good, mostly Sizzly Slide killing any reason for Sacred Fire and allowing for guaranteed burns without the hax (85% wow is complete bull)
• Sappy Seed could have a niche on PH Kyogre-Primal so it can beat Water-types and Shedinja. Makes it less selfimposterproof, though.
• Kartana is BROKEN. 252 Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde-Complete: 354-422 (55.6 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and then add on that extra 51% to flinch.

We now know the effects of all moves.

• Glitzy Glow casts Light Screen upon use. Probably worse than Light Screen or Aurora Veil because it can be blocked by immunities.
• Baddy Bad casts Reflect upon use. Probably better than Reflect because it can't be blocked. It is also notably the most powerful Dark type special move.
• Freezy Frost casts Haze. Probably worse than Haze because it has half the PP, although the power might occasionally come in handy
• Sparkly Swirl casts Heal Bell. Absolutely better than Heal Bell due to having three times the amount of PP, and doing damage, making it unaffected by Taunt

Most move buffs appear to make up for the absence of other moves in the game, like Mega Drain being buffed to make up for the absence of Giga Drain, or Solar Beam to make up for the absence of Sunny Day, so it's safe to assume these changes won't apply come gen 8.
EDIT: forgot to mention that these are all damaging moves, and as such they can be used with AV. So, even if Freezy Frost is normally less useful than Haze because it has less PP, it can be used to great effect by AV users like Solgaleo as a tool to simultaneously remove boosts and poke the likes of Zygarde.

 

[Rumors]

Guys, stats apparently don't matter in LGPE in a BH setting. Literally only typing will matter, according to this tweet someone linked me to. (I don't care for twitter, but this tidbit is interesting.)

It's completely broken. One review mentions that they used Candy to get a Level 15 Pokémon to beat a Level 70 one. Based on what we know, each candy is +1 stat point, and there's no cap and level doesn't matter

So that means every Pokemon in the game can have max stats since, in simulator, we'd have access to unlimited candies regardless of the meta. So, we could get everyone to the cap of... is it 999, 9999, or 32767? Either way, if this somehow came into mainline games and somehow applied to the entire pokedex, my Regenvest Magikarp would be just as viable as your Regenvest Pogre. The meta would probably go a bit stally since max HP + max defenses would overshadow max offenses.

 

[Kadabrium]

Guys, stats apparently don't matter in LGPE in a BH setting. Literally only typing will matter, according to this tweet someone linked me to. (I don't care for twitter, but this tidbit is interesting.)



So that means every Pokemon in the game can have max stats since, in simulator, we'd have access to unlimited candies regardless of the meta. So, we could get everyone to the cap of... is it 999, 9999, or 32767? Either way, if this somehow came into mainline games and somehow applied to the entire pokedex, my Regenvest Magikarp would be just as viable as your Regenvest Pogre. The meta would probably go a bit stally since max HP + max defenses would overshadow max offenses.

someone in that thread mentioned the cap is 200.

 

[Coldembrace]

Another random team i came up with. wanted to bring back psychic terrain. Been working relatively well.

Zygarde-Complete @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Psychic Terrain
- U-turn
- Destiny Bond
- Shore Up

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Focus Sash
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Photon Geyser
- Moonblast
- Fusion Flare

Mewtwo-Mega-Y @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psycho Boost
- Psystrike
- Volt Switch
- Photon Geyser

Tyranitar-Mega @ Choice Band
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Diamond Storm
- Knock Off
- Pursuit

Diancie-Mega @ Groundium Z
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Mild Nature
- Shell Smash
- Boomburst
- Precipice Blades
- Rapid Spin

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Haze
- U-turn
- Soft-Boiled
- Destiny Bond

Zygarde for setting up terrain and imposter-proofing Ttar. double MMY and diancie to act as sweepers - tinted lens MMY breaks through most mons with terrain up but is stopped by dark type (has a pretty weird moves to ensure Ttar imposter-proofs it well, but prob can replace photon with moongeist). Simple MMY and Diance acts as the two other sweepers. Turboblaze TTar to kill Shed or dazzling MMY (shld terrain be down) while chansey imposter-proofs simple MMY and Diancie. Prob many more ways to improve the team but not too sure/havent thought act it too much

 

[Talpr0ne]

Guys, stats apparently don't matter in LGPE in a BH setting. Literally only typing will matter, according to this tweet someone linked me to. (I don't care for twitter, but this tidbit is interesting.)



So that means every Pokemon in the game can have max stats since, in simulator, we'd have access to unlimited candies regardless of the meta. So, we could get everyone to the cap of... is it 999, 9999, or 32767? Either way, if this somehow came into mainline games and somehow applied to the entire pokedex, my Regenvest Magikarp would be just as viable as your Regenvest Pogre. The meta would probably go a bit stally since max HP + max defenses would overshadow max offenses.

The cap for candy boosts is 200 points in each stats. The increase is pretty massive, but I don't think it makes stats a non factor; let's look at the maxed out stats for each pure Psychic type available in LGPE with the new system. All Pokémon have all 31 IVs, maxed out candy boosts, maxed out friendship and a Modest nature, and are level 100.
Abra: 391 / 274 / 292 / 497 / 360 / 437
Kadabra: 421 / 304 / 305 / 533 / 393 / 470
Alakazam: 451 / 334 / 338 / 569 / 448 / 503
Alakazam-Mega: 451 / 334 / 382 / 666 / 470 / 569
Drowzee: 487 / 329 / 338 / 347 / 437 / 332
Hypno: 511 / 379 / 393 / 420 / 492 / 387
Mewtwo: 555 / 453 / 437 / 615 / 437 / 525
Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 555 / 532 / 393 / 712 / 503 / 547
Mew: 541 / 433 / 459 / 484 / 459 / 459

As you can see, Mega Mewtwo Y still dwarfs over everyone else with its stats, so even under this system picking a Pokémon with high stats is stronger and not just out of technicality.

 

[Rumors]

In my defense, people hadn't found out about the cap yet when I got that info, so the implication seemed like you could max every stat.

Still though, I think it benefits defensive stats more than offensive stats.

 

[Fabio Le Sheep]

Yo, Can we use the new pikachu/eevee exclusive moves? cuz i'd love to use them

 

[Ren]

Yo, Can we use the new pikachu/eevee exclusive moves? cuz i'd love to use them

No, Let's Go moves aren't coded in USUM which is what BH is played in.

 

[cityscapes]

hey guys i'm back. so i was laddering a few nights ago, not sure what team to use, and the pressure aero team caught my eye. now initially, i just dismissed it as the same bad gimmick i thought it was before, but i had some really insightful games with it that are worth sharing here in my opinion.

the set if you haven't read my initial post on it:
Aerodactyl-Mega @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spiky Shield
- Coil
- Drill Peck
- Substitute

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-836320159

here's a game vs resident whale highlighter. he had several aero answers like regen no av zyg, regenvest celesteela, and fc spectral scald msab. even then, aero was able to put in work by pp stalling celesteela's rapid spin so magearna would eventually get tspikes up (thus allowing for a late-game aero sweep with lunar dance support). unfortunately, i misplayed by letting giratina get tricked scarf, limiting its ability to handle ogre, which highlights one of the flaws of these teams: they can be super hard to use. you have to maintain focus over a 200+ turn game.

also don't worry, i've fixed the giratina set since then lol

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-823919858

here's another game, this one a lot less complex than the last. this game shows off the values of aero as a late game sweeper: even though i was up against one of the most annoying mons to break through, leftovers prankster registeel, aero was still able to bring it home in the end.

the question here, of course, is whether this strategy will work outside of a ladder setting. how well would the team fare against tournament players? the game vs hl shows that it's not a total lost cause, and the defensive/balanced teams aero does best against are much more common in tours, but with the right team a decent player might just be able to completely shut down the strategy and win.

this set/team style is, in my opinion, a whole new way to play bh, and i wanted other people to understand how it worked. it'll probably only become a niche strategy at best, but even shaking up the meta a little bit is good enough for me. thanks for reading.

 

[Chessking345]

stolen idea from aaronboyer for zu

BH Secret Santa​

The BH Secret Santa project will work like standard Secret Santas, where you anonymously give and receive a gift. However, instead of gifts, you will request a BH team built around a certain Pokemon or core that you choose. If you are interested and would like to participate, PM me on Smogon (not on anything else such as Discord or PS) and describe what core you would like someone to build around for you. Once the signup deadline has been reached, I will PM you back describing the core someone else has requested that you'll need to build around. When you're finished, you will PM me back the team and I will send it to the receiver.

Rules ​

• Requests must be sent to me via PM here on the Smogon Forums, I will also send you the request for you in the same PM, and you will send me your team also in the same PM.
• Don't tell anyone what request you have received nor what you have given until the team submission deadline.
• You may send or edit your request at any time, until request signups are over. Once the deadline is reached, you will no longer be able to edit it. However, please try to minimize the editing, as I may miss your edit and end up sending the old request.
• DO NOT sign up if you cannot guarantee you can finish the team in time.
• Please finish the team before the team submission deadline.
• Submissions shouldn't be overly memey, and if you are submitting a core remember that a core is made up of 2-3 Pokemon. You can also request one specific Pokemon, or even ask for a specific playstyle. If you want, you can ask for an open team.
• Don't be afraid to join in because you are uncertain of your teambuilding ability! If you want, I can try to help you (I'm not a particularly good teambuilder myself though)

Sign-ups and Request Deadline: December 14th, 11:59 PM, PST (May be changed earlier)

Team Submission Deadline: December 24th, 9:00 PM, PST​

 

[NylaTheWolf]

What are these imposters? I cant find anything explaining that..

 

[Pikachuun]

What are these imposters? I cant find anything explaining that..

Imposter is an ability that allows the Pokemon that has it to transform into the Pokemon on the opponent's side of the field. This transformation copies the base stats of the opponent (except HP, which is why Chansey is so often used for this purpose), their stat buffs and ability, their moves (your copies will start with 5 PP and have 5 PP max, which is refreshed if you switch out and in again), and some other things.
Most items' effects still apply when the Pokemon with Imposter transforms as those don't get replaced, such as Eviolite (again, why Chansey is so often used), the Plates if you want to try and beat someone's anti-Imposter (aka "improof") sets, and Choice Scarf. It's also good to note that some abilities don't work properly if a Pokemon transforms into something that has them, which are always tied to the Pokemon itself; Stance Change, Multitype, and Forecast are some examples.
This doesn't work if the opponent's Pokemon has an Illusion (which is banned) or Substitute up, though, which is why most Imposter Pokemon carry Fake Out (not really anymore because it was used for Illusion) and/or Whirlwind in their original moveset, as much as you'd think it wouldn't matter it actually does in those situations.

hopefully this explains it
also the Pokemon who originally has this ability is Ditto if it helps you get a visual, it's basically Transform, the ability

 

[Storm Eagle]

Good description of Imposter. I think you explained it well.

This doesn't work if the opponent's Pokemon has an Illusion (which is banned) or Substitute up, though, which is why most Imposter Pokemon carry Fake Out (not really anymore because it was used for Illusion) and/or Whirlwind in their original moveset, as much as you'd think it wouldn't matter it actually does in those situations.

An important note you forgot to mention: You can't transform into a transformed Pokemon. This means that if you switch an Imposter into a Pokemon which had activated Imposter or used Transform, then your Pokemon's Imposter won't activate. This is why movesets are relevant with Imposter.

I don't really think Whirlwind is used that much any more even though it's listed on the SetPedia. There are better moves to choose from nowadays. For me, I'd probably say the most meta moveset right now is:

• Anchor Shot
• Wish / Heal Bell
• Soft-Boiled
• U-turn / Spikes / Stealth Rock

One thing I feel Imposter is underrated at is improofing special attackers. Chansey has a great defensive typing and an astronomical Special Defense. Anchor Shot lets you immediately threaten opposing Imposters. I'm sure you could use two strong special attackers, two Imposter Chanseys to improof them, and all you would need is hazard removal, a check to PH users, and a normgar check, which is decently easy to fit in two slots. Just be cautious of losing to Fur Coat Chansey.

Also, because Scarf Imposter is locked into a move, it cannot improof special attackers unless you try to run gimmicky shit... so the above only applies to Eviolite.

 

[Rumors]

• Anchor Shot
• Wish / Heal Bell
• Soft-Boiled
• U-turn / Spikes / Stealth Rock

What does this do to a threat behind Substitute though? Outside of switching, anyway, which might not be possible if you lack U-Turn and the opponent has Anchor Shot (unlikely, but worth keeping in mind since such an event is usually an auto-lose for Imposter with the given set). I'd at least slash Whirlwind and Skill Swap on Anchor Shot's slot. Skill Swap is notable since it bypasses sub, bypasses Magic Bounce/Coat, and forces the opponent to transform into you which is usually a momentum kill on their part. Although it's not a no brainer pick since it's blocked by some abilities, most notably Comatose for some reason.

 

[Storm Eagle]

I honestly don't feel like Substitute is used enough to justify using Whirlwind. I've literally only ever seen Substitute on Triage Mega Rayquaza and some shitty PH unsets, although I hear some Contrary sets run it, but those Contrary users would end up breaking Chansey regardless of whether it had Whirlwind or not.

While Triage Mega Rayquaza is dangerous, it's not without its checks. I should note that Substitute Triage Mega Rayquaza is very weak to Spectral Thief, as Spectral Thief not only steals boosts from Mega Rayquaza, it goes through Substitute too. You can also just use Boomburst from practically any -Ate and you'll threaten Mega Rayquaza. There are more practical ways of beating Triage Mega Rayquaza and other Substitute users, and I think Whirlwind on a passive mon only serves to postpone the problem rather than dealing with it directly.

 

[NylaTheWolf]

Can Weavile work in BH? Like, maybe Refrigerate or Adaptability as its ability?