Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

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Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?No. Baton Pass is just an annoying (and very potent) playstyle but at the moment it is not that centralizing to be a problem for the development of the metagame. During my laddering to get OU reqs and in the following weeks i have in fact met some baton pass teams but they are not that many compared to the total of battles i've played.
If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?The switch initiative that these teams can easily get is especially dangerous and the fact that you need Prankster Taunt or Mold Breaker Taunt/Whirlwind (or a lot of luck) to beat them which are not easy to fit on all teams.

Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
I believe that Espeon and Scolipede's combination of abilities and movepools is the major problem regarding Baton Pass chains and i'd support the ban of them both if that removed Baton Pass' viability in the tier.
Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?No, Baton Pass has a lot of uses other than full baton pass Chains. For example it is a useful scouting move pn pokemons that do not get U-Turn/Volt Switch/Parting Shot that also has the benefit of evading Pursuit and a Baton Pass core with Medicham and Scolipede was decent in the first XY OU as they had decent offensive sinergy (Scolipede dealing with Psychic types and passing Speed Boosts and even SD boosts to Medicham in the late game).
(I know this example is not that relevant in the current metagame but whatever)

Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.I think the best "complex" solution would be the ban of Speed Boost + Baton Pass and Magic Bounce + Baton pass on the same team or simply the ban of 3+ baton pass' users in the same team.

I'm sorry if i have made grammar errors but english is not my native language T.T

 

[Blizzardhail]

If we really have to ban baton pass, at least do it right. Espeon uses baton pass to escape pursuit and Scolipede baton passes speed to slow pokemon like M-Mawile so if you really want to ban baton pass I think banning 3 or more baton passers on the same team is the way to go

 

[Shocker14]

Baton Pass is not the problem here. It's the pokemon that use it. Magic Bounce users, and speed boost users. They can control the baton pass chain, and theoretically make a pokemon invisible. (Example) There are two pokemon. A pokemon with baton pass, speed boost and substitute. It reaches +6 speed, and baton passes to a marowak holding thick club. Unluckily the opponent's team do not have priority, and they end up in ruins. It can have amazing power, and that can HURT the opponent's team (I want to do this, as my musharna baton passes calm mind boosts)

 

[Matte98]

Mmh, I think Baton Pass should be banned only on Magic Bounce users, like Espeon, Xatu and M-Absol. Just Roar, Whirlwind or Dragon Tail: boosted stats vanish. Critical hits too are potentially dangerous. So I don't think Baton Pass must be banned. That's just my opinion. There are hundreds of people that think different.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I'm still against a limit of three or whatever pokemon with Baton Pass on the same team. When the option exists to nerf BP to the point where it's not "auto-win," that option should be taken instead of just eliminating it entirely as a strategy.

Really I think it'd be the fourth worst option, behind a ban of Baton Pass itself, Scolipede and Espeon.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Is Baton Pass (with specific reference to full Baton Pass teams) a problem for the development of the metagame?
Yes, it forces every team to pack at least some ways of trying to counter it as the only other way to beat it is pray for a crit.
Especially Offensive teams have it bad here as they often lack the moveslots/time to bother with things like Whirlwind/Roar/Haze/Unaware mons in general and Taunt is rather ineffective when Scoli packs a Mental Herb anyway.
And these counters are rather ineffective as BP teams can easily play around it due to having much higher speed (outside of prankster taunt which a grand total of 4 even a little OU viable mons have access to and only one of these is actually 'good' in OU and would much rather run another move) and switch initiative + Magic Bounce/Sound Proof or even Ingrain.

Parting Shot could be a decent counter but it's only 2 users are Pangoro who isn't OU viable by a longshot and Smeargle who essentially has 2 niches in OU, one of which is on BP teams (where it obviously wouldn't be running PS).


If so, what elements, in particular, do you think are pushing Baton Pass over the edge?
Speed Boost + BP means they always have switch advantage, mindless stat boosting that cannot be countered outside of Haze (you'll likely be outsped and OHKO'd even with Unaware as Stored Power still works) getting a (lucky) crit and Phazing (Magic Bounce/Ingrain/Soundproof/Fairy Types) they even get to bypass subs now due to Sylveon's Hypervoice.


Do you believe that banning individual Pokémon (such as Espeon/Scolipede) would make Baton Pass manageable?
Yes, but I don't think it would be a desirable ban as both Espeon and (especially) Scolipede have legit uses outside of full BP teams.


Would you support a blanket ban on the move Baton Pass?
No as it would kill off the small niches that things like Espeon, Celebi and (to a much lesser extent) Scolipede have the former 2 by not allowing them to escape Pursuit and the latter is sometimes used to pass a couple of boosts to a sweeper which I don't think is a particularly desirable strategy but it certainly has counterplay.


Would you support the introduction of complex bans (like Pokémon X+Pokémon Y on the same team)? Feel free to suggest more forms of complex bans, of course.

Yes, the most obvious one seems to be limit the amount of BP users per team to 2-3 or even 1 if you want to go that far. This way you don't hurt the roles of Pokemon that commonly use BP outside of full BP teams and shut down full BP effectively.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

People need to stop whining just because they don't want to prepare for a relevant threat. Losing to something your team is not designed to handle is not anything new. It's nobody's fault but the player's if they don't have the right bases covered. If this strategy is particularly popular and is problematic for your team, adapt to it like people do for Mega Pinsir.

Unaware Quagsire with Haze is excellent and works against any Pokemon on a Baton Pass team that doesn't carry Taunt, of which there are many. Prankster Murkrow can use Haze with priority and is also immune to Stored Power. Think outside the box and learn to adapt to relevant threats. Anyone who concludes that Baton Pass is ridiculous because it forces "shitty" or "extremely niche" Pokemon like these to be used need to acknowledge the total gain here. You aren't running one uncommon Pokemon just to counter one other Pokemon. Running one Pokemon in this case allows you to completely and thoroughly screw a whole team of six, which is absolutely a reliable trade-off in my opinion if doing so let's you topple a threatening and popular strategy in the current metagame. If players actually did this, it would become too much of a liability for full Baton Pass to be used and it would consequently drop in popularity.

 

[Over Zealous]

Ok my turn. Baton Pass might be a strategy that's is quite hard to beat. However , Over Zealous stated that it is autonomous but the thing is you are comparing a battle with no prediction. As Vryheid said: a competent player can defeat baton pass with prediction. Prediction had always been a part of Pokemon and prediction is the strategy that makes baton pass handleable and not banned in previous generations. If you lose again baton pass, it's because you had a misplay. For example, if you'd suspect Espeon is switching in to reflect Deoxys-S stealth rocks, you hit it hard with knock off , also crippling it for the rest of the game. You can also run stuff like focus sash+ mirror coat which is usable without baton pass.

Prediction isn't an argument, but situational bias.

Speed Boost Scolipede and Magic Bounce Espeon make Baton Passing an autonomous affair with or without prediction. A competent player cannot defeat a competent Baton Passer with just prediction, but rather needs dedicated and niche counters. It's already been stated, and proven, Taunt is not enough. For example, no matter what you predict, I'm gathering a free Speed Boost, and trivial +2 or +3, with the easy possibility of Substitute and/or Iron Defense.

And keep in mind, a Baton Pass user also uses prediction.

Knock Off doesn't cripple Espeon anyways - it can still function AND sweep without Leftovers, or Pass again if necessary. An Iron Defense/Calm Mind boosted Espeon can take an unsuspecting Knock Off or 3.

Losing to Baton Pass isn't a misplay. You either lose because you lack dedicated checks and countermeasures, or you win because of them.

People need to stop whining just because they don't want to prepare for a relevant threat. Losing to something your team is not designed to handle is not anything new. It's nobody's fault but the player's if they don't have the right bases covered. If this strategy is particularly popular and is problematic for your team, adapt to it like people do for Mega Pinsir.

Unaware Quagsire with Haze is excellent and works against any Pokemon on a Baton Pass team that doesn't carry Taunt, of which there are many. Prankster Murkrow can use Haze with priority and is also immune to Stored Power. Think outside the box and learn to adapt to relevant threats. Anyone who concludes that Baton Pass is ridiculous because it forces "shitty" or "extremely niche" Pokemon like these to be used need to acknowledge the total gain here. You aren't running one uncommon Pokemon just to counter one other Pokemon. Running one Pokemon in this case allows you to completely and thoroughly screw a whole team of six, which is absolutely a reliable trade-off in my opinion if doing so let's you topple a threatening and popular strategy.

You admit, by your own admission, Baton Pass restricts teambuilding and forces you to incorporate dedicated 'counters'. Quagsire is scarcely competitive in the OU environment, and is no counter to Baton Pass whatsoever. And a player shouldn't be forced to run a Prankster Murkrow or Sableeye (which hinders and stifles the development of their team by taking up a valuable team spot).

This isn't a debate whether Baton Pass chains can be checked or countered in obscure, niche ways. This is a question of: does Baton Pass limit and restrict teambuilding and harm the metagame?

 

[T-Bolt]

You admit, by your own admission, Baton Pass restricts teambuilding and forces you to incorporate dedicated 'counters'. Quagsire is scarcely competitive in the OU environment, and is no counter to Baton Pass whatsoever. And a player shouldn't be forced to run a Prankster Murkrow or Sableeye (which hinders and stifles the development of their team by taking up a valuable team spot).

This isn't a debate whether Baton Pass chains can be checked or countered in obscure, niche ways. This is a question of: does Baton Pass limit and restrict teambuilding and harm the metagame?

Hell, if you just have to use one pokemon to check an entire playstyle, of course it's worth it. It isn't very different from having a stallbreaker to counter stall. Plus, aside from Murkrow, many baton pass counters have other roles they can play other than countering baton pass. Every single playstyle limits teambuilding, not just full baton pass.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

This isn't a debate whether Baton Pass chains can be checked or countered in obscure, niche ways. This is a question of: does Baton Pass limit and restrict teambuilding and harm the metagame?

No, it doesn't, not when running one Pokemon with just one required move totally screws an entire highly potent strategy that requires several Pokemon in order to function well. If it's hard to beat and it's popular, adapt. It's not really hard in this case.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Just to add to the discussion, mega gardevoir absolutely reqs bp teams. I have a 7-0 streak against those teams just by leading with gardy and spamming hyper voice, occasionally switching into thundurus or aegislash for backup. She deals ridiculous damage, can deal mixed damage, and penetrate subs. So dont forget her when you list bp's counters in OU.

 

[Anty]

Ive been having trouble with baton pass teams recently because better players have found ways around quagsire, i have seen two or three mold breaker hawlucha's. This negates unaware and at +4 can ohko quag (isnt that hard to get to). This does require a batonpass on the switch into qaugy but it can work and it breaks the only counter on certain teams.

Ive only seen bp now this thread has been opened, but it rly needs a nerf

 

[Over Zealous]

No, it doesn't, not when running one Pokemon with just one required move totally screws an entire highly potent strategy that requires several Pokemon in order to function well. If it's hard to beat and it's popular, adapt. It's not really hard in this case.

Oh, please let me know what one move hardcounters Baton Pass. Taunt? Taunt doesn't counter Baton Pass by virtue of trivial Speed Boosts and Magic Bounce. If I see Prankster Taunt, I obviously won't lead with Scolipede, or otherwise switch or Pass to Espeon.

Baton Pass requires two Pokemon: Scolipede and Espeon, to top-rank ladder and be successful.

Also note: Prankster Taunt is ONE counter, among NICHE Pokemon.

Adapt? You mean force every player to include a Prankster Taunt on their team?

 

[Aquaslash]

-Unfortunately, contrary to what aqualash said, baton pass requires no skill to use. If you get off the speed, which is often very easy, you can just keep on baton passing to other pokes which coutner whatever the oponent brings in.

Needless to say, I strongly disagree, especially after that tl;dr post I made earlier. More than anything, it requires knowledge of what threatens and can destroy you. One bad prediction can easily shift momentum in the foe's favor and cost you the match.

This isn't a debate whether Baton Pass chains can be checked or countered in obscure, niche ways. This is a question of: does Baton Pass limit and restrict teambuilding and harm the metagame?

IMO, Talonflame by himself limits teambuilding more than BP ever will. You NEED to be carrying either something that can eat a BB and fire back, or something that puts up stealth rocks or he will annihilate your everything. Hell, he pretty much invalidates Grass as a typing by himself. Too bad overpreparing for him leaves you vulnerable to everything else. That's just one pokemon, who so far, hasn't even been suspected yet.
The kicker is that most of the time, when he dies, the whole team generally doesn't fall to pieces, which can't be said for BP.

 

[T-Bolt]

Oh, please let me know what one move hardcounters Baton Pass. Taunt? Taunt doesn't counter Baton Pass by virtue of trivial Speed Boosts and Magic Bounce. If I see Prankster Taunt, I obviously won't lead with Scolipede, or otherwise switch or Pass to Espeon.

Also note: Prankster Taunt is ONE counter, among NICHE Pokemon.

Adapt? You mean force every player to include a Prankster Taunt on their team?

You can use prankster encore too, considering that baton pass chains use most of their turns racking up boosts, so it isn't hard to switch in safely and encore them. Espeon can bounce the encore back, but that would break the chain.

Like ninja charizard said, pokemon that can spam high powered STAB moves like char-Y and mega-Gard work too. You have to use them early game before the baton pass team has racked up boosts though. Constant offensive pressure means that it's harder to set up a chain.

 

[Over Zealous]

Hell, if you just have to use one pokemon to check an entire playstyle, of course it's worth it. It isn't very different from having a stallbreaker to counter stall. Plus, aside from Murkrow, many baton pass counters have other roles they can play other than countering baton pass. Every single playstyle limits teambuilding, not just full baton pass.

Again, there's no single hardcounter outside Prankster Taunt, which can't counter the COMMON Magic Bounce Espeon. Furthermore, every player should not be forced to run this "one Pokemon to check an entire playstyle" (which I assure you, there are none).

 

[Ninja Charizard]

It is uncompetitive merely because you must have one of half a dozen pokes that somewhat autowins you the game at the team preview, or you autolose the game at the team preview, rarely is their any in-between. Playing as a BP player means that w/l depends on what teams you face, not really how well your oponents can execute with that team. By any standards, that is uncompetitive.

BP chains are only tolerated because they are not faced that often, imagine if BP as common was rotom-w was in the beggining of pokebankou beta, it is unequivocally be dealt with.

Half a dozen? Every special attacker in the tier plus a few physical attackers is not half a dozen.

Here's the thing about bp. Don't bother using stuff like taunt and whirlwind. They expect that. Lead with your most powerful sweeper and spam your strongest move ruthlessly. Bp teams dont have strong defenses, they cant stop your attacks that easily if you start attacking before they get the boosts. Dont bother setting up unless its something ridiculous like nasty plot, just hit and destroy. They will cumble more often than not.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Oh, please let me know what one move hardcounters Baton Pass. Taunt? Taunt doesn't counter Baton Pass by virtue of trivial Speed Boosts and Magic Bounce. If I see Prankster Taunt, I obviously won't lead with Scolipede, or otherwise switch or Pass to Espeon.

Baton Pass requires two Pokemon: Scolipede and Espeon, to top-rank ladder and be successful.

Also note: Prankster Taunt is ONE counter, among NICHE Pokemon.

Adapt? You mean force every player to include a Prankster Taunt on their team?

Haze, as I stated in my first post.

 

[Over Zealous]

Half a dozen? Every special attacker in the tier plus a few physical attackers is not half a dozen.

Here's the thing about bp. Don't bother using stuff like taunt and whirlwind. They expect that. Lead with your most powerful sweeper and spam your strongest move ruthlessly. Bp teams dont have strong defenses, they cant stop your attacks that easily if you start attacking before they get the boosts. Dont bother setting up unless its something ridiculous like nasty plot, just hit and destroy. They will cumble more often than not.

Lead with your most powerful sweeper, and spam attacks...to no avail. Scolipede leads with Protect, outpaces and brings up a Substitute. Wash, rinse, repeat. Clearly you lack sufficient knowledge on Baton Pass archetype, and the metagame as a whole, and should refrain from posting.

 

[Aquaslash]

Half a dozen? Every special attacker in the tier plus a few physical attackers is not half a dozen.

Here's the thing about bp. Don't bother using stuff like taunt and whirlwind. They expect that. Lead with your most powerful sweeper and spam your strongest move ruthlessly. Bp teams dont have strong defenses, they cant stop your attacks that easily if you start attacking before they get the boosts. Dont bother setting up unless its something ridiculous like nasty plot, just hit and destroy. They will crumble more often than not.

Honestly, It's really this simple. The overwhelming majority of BP users are pretty frail, and easily worn down by powerful attacks. Espeon absolutely needs a defense boost or it's dead pretty fast. Very few BP mons have any sort of recovery. Speaking of:

Lead with your most powerful sweeper, and spam attacks...to no avail. Scolipede leads with Protect, outpaces and brings up a Substitute. Wash, rinse, repeat. Clearly you lack sufficient knowledge on Baton Pass archetype, and the metagame as a whole, and should refrain from posting.

Said substitute is then wrecked before he can really do anything, he's put in a position where he has to either make more subs and lose health, or try to boost defense and hope he lives, all while he has no recovery and is probably carrying a sash. BP is not all that great at handling early game pressure.

 

[Over Zealous]

Haze, as I stated in my first post.

Have you read the thread? Haze suffers from bad distribution; few Pokemon can viably run Haze in OU, and fewer want to. In short, it's a niche counter, and one at that. You've already admitted players must adapt be forced to run Haze Murkrow in hopes of stopping a Baton Pass. So every player must incorporate Prankster Haze? That's seriously your argument?

 

[jbtc10]

Haze, as I stated in my first post.

There are some meta-relevant things like Taunt + Nasty Plot Thundurus-I which can work well against BP, but that's not quite the point.

The main point being made is that Full BP teams are generally considered to negatively impact the game; it's an almost completely pre-fabricated archetype which requires no thought to construct or use, and serves only to get free wins from people who try to play the game as it's "meant to be played".

 

[Aquaslash]

Have you read the thread? Haze suffers from bad distribution; few Pokemon can viably run Haze in OU, and fewer want to. In short, it's a niche counter, and one at that. You've already admitted players must adapt be forced to run Haze Murkrow in hopes of stopping a Baton Pass. So every player must incorporate Prankster Haze? That's seriously your argument?

How is that any different from something like stall, or HO where you need to have something that can either break their stall or eat whatever pressure HO throws at them.

 

[Over Zealous]

Honestly, It's really this simple. The overwhelming majority of BP users are pretty frail, and easily worn down by powerful attacks. Espeon absolutely needs a defense boost or it's dead pretty fast. Very few BP mons have any sort of recovery. Speaking of:


Said substitute is then wrecked before he can really do anything, he's put in a position where he has to either make more subs and lose health, or try to boost defense and hope he lives, all while he has no recovery and is probably carrying a sash. BP is not all that great at handling early game pressure.

Sigh. Even a modest Baton Pass player would love to play against you. Scolipede can Substitute and Protect and near max Speed boosts before it needs to Pass. It then Passes to something to resists your "threatening sweeper" STABS, and the massacre begins.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 234 HP / 252+ Def Scolipede: 366-432 (114.7 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 36+ Def Espeon: 306-361 (91.6 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 204 HP / 252+ Def Mr. Mime: 220-261 (80.8 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 212 HP / 228+ Def Smeargle: 310-366 (101.9 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

talonflame beats baton pass so easily lol. that is 2 thirds of a baton pass team already dead.

he truly is the bravest bird

 

[qpie]

Is it just me or has the discussion about counterplay to full Baton Pass teams been a little black and white?

We've extensively gone over things which essentially guarantee a win against them, things which leave you with a very favorable matchup and things which can do absolutely nothing to full Baton Pass teams and automatically lose against them.

Are there any Pokemon, cores, moves or playstyles that just give you a fighting chance against full Baton Pass teams without practically guaranteeing a win or is this really the all or nothing matchup we are making it out to be?