BH BH7 Suspect #3: Trapping - Voter Identification & Discussion

[E4 Flint]

​

What?
I am beginning a suspect on Gengarite and Magnet Pull; based on the poll I conducted here.

Why?
Trapping has always been a controversial issue in BH and these are the last few ways to maintain trapping through an ability.
See more of the discussion here.

How?
It's simple; get 2600 COIL in the BH Suspect ladder; you can vote!
Make a new alt with "Trap" anywhere in the name of the alt but they must be as one unit. See the following handy example:

MagTrapHologram ✓
TrickMapHologram X

GXE Table

b=9.5

Where?
You must post your proof of reqs in this thread and play your games on the main pokemonshowdown.com sim. A new Balanced Hackmons (suspect) ladder shall be created for this suspect.

Do:

• Post your proof and, if you wish, your stance on the matter, in this thread. Read the following CAREFULLY on how to do so:
  • For proof, you MUST FIRST AND FOREMOST PROVIDE AN IMAGE OF THE ALT WITH PROOF OF OWNERSHIP. I can't stress that last part enough. Refer to these examples of how to do this: example1 example2 example3
    • Last suspect I spent a lot of time reminding people about this so I'm saying it up front now; if you don't do at least the above, your vote won't be counted
• Post in this thread if you have any questions about THIS SUSPECT PROCESS

Do NOT:

• Post your stance on the matter in this thread without proof. (Why? Post in the main suspect thread instead)
• Post anything in this thread unrelated to this suspect (with or without proof)

When?
This suspect period will last 2 weeks, till July 7th. I will try to begin the voting immediately after confirming some other details on how it will be done.
GLHF!

Tagging The Immortal​

 

[E4 Flint]

I wanted to take a moment and talk about the suspect poll for this topic. The reason I opted for suspecting both Gengarite and Magnet Pull are:

1. For one, none of the options got an absolute majority (more than the other two options combined) or a majority over 60%, which is what is usually used for most OM suspects
   
   
2. This is the more disappointing one (if true) but I noticed that many said they were voting for the option to only suspect Gengarite (or worse, not suspect anything at all) as a compensatory vote because they felt that something else needed to be suspected first, be it Groudon Primal, or some other mechanic. This is a really wrong way to vote since ideally, suspect topics should be taken in isolation, and the order of suspects is usually settled upon in the main Suspects and Bans thread. Using the poll vote (which I am doing purely so that you guys can have more input easily, since there are no reqs involved) as a way to "protest" goes directly against the point of having them and as mentioned, is really disappointing.

Please do not do this again in the future. Voice your opinion in the thread. I read everything there, I promise.

 

[drampa's grandpa]

​

What?
I am beginning a suspect on Gengarite and Magnet Pull; based on the poll I conducted here.

Why?
Trapping has always been a controversial issue in BH and these are the last few ways to maintain trapping through an ability.
See more of the discussion here.

How?
It's simple; get 2600 COIL in the BH Suspect ladder; you can vote!
Make a new alt with "Trap" anywhere in the name of the alt but they must be as one unit. See the following handy example:

GXE Table

Where?
You must post your proof of reqs in this thread and play your games on the main pokemonshowdown.com sim. A new Balanced Hackmons (suspect) ladder shall be created for this suspect.

Do:

• Post your proof and, if you wish, your stance on the matter, in this thread. Read the following CAREFULLY on how to do so:
  • For proof, you MUST FIRST AND FOREMOST PROVIDE AN IMAGE OF THE ALT WITH PROOF OF OWNERSHIP. I can't stress that last part enough. Refer to these examples of how to do this: example1 example2 example3
    • Last suspect I spent a lot of time reminding people about this so I'm saying it up front now; if you don't do at least the above, your vote won't be counted
• Post in this thread if you have any questions about THIS SUSPECT PROCESS

Do NOT:

• Post your stance on the matter in this thread without proof. (Why? Post in the main suspect thread instead)
• Post anything in this thread unrelated to this suspect (with or without proof)

When?
This suspect period will last 2 weeks, till July 7th. I will try to begin the voting immediately after confirming some other details on how it will be done.
GLHF!

Tagging The Immortal​

Will Gengarite and Magnet Pull be banned on the ladder?

 

[E4 Flint]

Will Gengarite and Magnet Pull be banned on the ladder?

It won't be. Spam it like there's no tomorrow (which there probably won't be for gengarite tbh)

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

I voted Shadow Tag not as a form of protest, but because I thought it was more uncompetitive due to being able to trap everything, whereas Magnet Pull can trap only Steel-types and nothing else.

 

[cityscapes]

I voted Shadow Tag not as a form of protest, but because I thought it was more uncompetitive due to being able to trap everything, whereas Magnet Pull can trap only Steel-types and nothing else.

ok

in gen 7, steel types are almost mandatory on a bh balance/stall team. this is especially true due to the rise of psychic surge sets requiring a psychic resist on every team. imo it's dumb but that argument is for another time. you could try to use other types to resist psychic but the thing is that no dark type is really that bulky (mega gyara is the best we got because tar loses to the common secret sword) and psychics are vulnerable to moongeist and stack a u-turn weakness which sucks. in addition steels are needed as a check to -ates (except for a certain galvanize user) which they are clearly the best at due to their resistances to three of them.

last gen you could just pack a soundproofer for -ates and call it a day which was cool. this gen you can do no such thing. gone are the flash fire ages of old. there are too many dumb things to prepare for (ph, pdon, psychic surge, aps, contrary, ate, others) making role compression really big on defensive teams. steels are actually really bad in the current meta because they get 2hko'd by everything but they're the best thing we got.

and now because of magnet pull, steels just automatically lose unless they run prankster pass or shed shell. but the thing is, if they run one of these then they're so much weaker against the rest of the meta. prankster pass goes something like this:

your registeel vs opposing giratina
regi used baton pass
go audino

giratina used u-turn
opponent sent out breaker

with shed shell your team just gets 100000 times weaker to spore in general. specifically ph regi is usually stopped by registeel because of how facade is resisted. but it can just spore you now. the best part is that it can knock off your shell too so pdon can trap you either way!

so yeah magnet pull asdf

 

[aki0s]

NO-BAN
Reason: It's not that I think it's not impossible to play around or anything - but banning it might encourage newer players to the meta, and that's always good.On second thought, after taking awhile to think about it, I really don't think Magnet-Pull or Gengarite are broken. Think about it this way. Groudon has many better sets to run that do exactly the same thing over a period of time, yet chip more of an opposing team - magnet pull groudon is really only good at trapping steels and then it's mostly useless thereafter. Gengarite kinda reveals itself from the get go and people make really obvious plays in bringing it in. I'm not so sure banning these is the way to go at all.

Edit: Changed image, cus previous was eh.

 

[Klang]

I hope it's obvious to most people that Gengarite is beyond broken at this point.

But a question to those who think Magnet Pull isn't banworthy on grounds of uncompetitiveness:
How do you justify this being legal in what's supposed to be an ideally competitive environment?

Registeel @ Shed Shell
Ability: Magnet Pull
- Dragon Tail / Circle Throw
- filler

+

/

Xerneas / Giratina
Ability: Magnet Pull
- Acupressure
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- filler

+

some mon that can deal with prankster


The basic jist of this is that this combination has a 1 / 5 on every phaze of automatically winning the game against any opposing team that carries Chansey, which given this is BH is a high majority of competitive teams. Is it as viable as most other things you could run on these two Pokemon? Probably not. But does a combination that can simply automatically win against teams just because they unluckily got phazed into your Chansey really deserve to be legal? How outrageous would it be if an important tournament match was decided because player 2 Dragon Tailed with his Registeel and automatically won?

And hell, if you're really dedicated you can even run Mimikyu as the Accupressure mon and run both Dragon Tail and Circle Throw on your Steel to cover both Ghost and Fairy types.

EDIT: that's my point morogrim

 

[morogrim]

I hope it's obvious to most people that Gengarite is beyond broken at this point.

But a question to those who think Magnet Pull isn't banworthy:
How do you justify this being legal in what's supposed to be an ideally competitive environment?

Registeel @ Shed Shell
Ability: Magnet Pull
- Dragon Tail / Circle Throw
- filler

+

/

Xerneas / Giratina
Ability: Magnet Pull
- Acupressure
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- filler

+

some mon that can deal with prankster


The basic jist of this is that this combination has a 1 / 5 chance of automatically winning the game against any opposing team that carries Chansey, which given this is BH is a high majority of competitive teams. Is it as viable as most other things you could run on these two Pokemon? Probably not. But does a combination that can simply automatically win against teams just because they unluckily got phazed into your Chansey really deserve to be legal? How outrageous would it be if an important tournament match was decided because player 2 Dragon Tailed with his Registeel and automatically won?

And hell, if you're really dedicated you can even run Mimikyu as the Accupressure mon and run both Dragon Tail and Circle Throw on your Steel.

That's a really gimmicky core, and it will fail 4/5 of the time which doesn't make it the most viable to waste 2 whole teamslots just for a 1/5 chance to autowin. But this does bring up another point which is that MagPull is simply uncompetitive when you look at the core you provided. It kind of reminds me of OHKO moves, except this has a 20% shot at winning the whole game while OHKO moves have a 30% chance to OHKO 1 mon. This makes it possibly even worse than OHKO moves, which are already banned.

PS: You could run something like Mega Sableye instead of Xern/Gira to deal with Prankster users as well (in this case Registeel would obviously run Circle Throw).

 

[morogrim]

Double post, but meh

Get these abilities out of my sight.

 

[yoman5]

So magnet pull 100% BAN. There's just no good competitive reason to keep this around, and as much as some of the gimmicks it's involved with (like the above example by Klang) aren't hard to beat, they're not competitive.

Gengarite I'm less sure on, but there are reasons for it to go and zero compelling reasons for me to want to keep it. BAN.

 

[Scarf]

Trapping is too much even, and especially in a sandbox-like meta like BH, so I'll be voting ban on both Gengarite + Magnet Pull.

 

[fsk]

Gengarite: BAN
In this Full EV Meta where prankster parting shot is also nerfed, I believe the majority of the community has already been convinced about how Gengarite Gengar skews the mind game to an unfair degree. ( some good posts, summary post + explanation of the difference from gen 6)
The only thing I want to add to that summary post is that Z-move is another way to deal with it as Z-move doesn't fear Encore: No fear to heal up your FC Zygarde/Kyogre after tanking Pdon's hit even there is a trapping mega gengar on its back. (Examples: Porge's Surf Z move can almost one shot it, and guaranteed KO it after SR damage. Zygarde's Techtonic Rage can secure a KO too.)
I was gonna say with one more way of dealing with it, you can get your req quicker but sadly I have never seen a single Gengarite Gengar during my 35 battles :(

Magnet Pull:
I used a team that is completely immune to both of the trapping suspected on this ladder, and there is only one game I face a Magnet Pull Pdon and really nothing else. So I need some more time to decide, although indeed if I had a non-prankster parting steel pivot I could have changed 3 of the 4 loss resulted from speed tie to 3 secure win.
The klang post above is an example of how Magnet Pull can be uncompetitive. Back in gen 6, similar Magnet Pull strategy also exists, and in other forms too (outdated since Core+Pivot is kinda common now). Now before I make my vote I need to convince myself that either it deserves to be banned in gen 6 too or there is a boost of the strategy that pushes it over the edge. (one more good post to review)
I have built/seen more than just Scarf MagPull Pdon, like Bolt Strike/V-Create Band MBlaziken, Flint's Imprison+U-turn+Core Enforce Reshiram, MMX, and my own meme Imprison+U-turn+Z Attack Yveltal and these sets are where the community started to suggest that Magnet Pull might be ban-worthy. However, the effectiveness of these sets on my own experience of facing them is quite underwhelming maybe due to my preparation in the build. Indeed it demands some extra preparation to make some of the walls not very optimal to face the rest of the metagame but how game-breaking these preparations are, compared to the preparation demanded by other common threats be it MMY MRay Pdon Porge or anything good, I need more time to gauge. If by running two mons to outrun and overcome the same wall, or running an illusion to lure in the wrong wall are acceptable strategy, and if MagPull misses the one shot and leave the wall alive for future recovery and fail to so with proper preparation, it is possible that the thing is not over the edge yet.

After all, by looking at the possibility of some uncompetitive gimmicks I wouldn't object a full ban of MagPull, but whether MagPull attacking trapper is the thing that makes itself uncompetitive is sth I am not fully sure of.

 

[Deleted User 91486]

Ban both Magnet Pull and Shadow Tag. I will give reasons later when I have more time :)

 

[Transcendent God Champion]

 

[DarkRisingRay]

Can somebody please explain to me why this is ban worthy?

On Smogon these are the criteria...
An Ability should be considered for ban based on:

• "Splashable"ility:
  Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard
• Extreme Augmentation:
  The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter. This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond

I understand its a pain but I respect the fact that its an effective way of clearing stall mons... These bans are making the gameplay slower and slower... IMO

Oh and apparently people cry when they switch in imposter and lose it to a trap pokemon -.- .....

 

[tegrof19]

so what i'm hearing from you is that you hate stall and don't care if a broken mechanic stays just so it remains unplayable

got it

 

[DarkRisingRay]

so what i'm hearing from you is that you hate stall and don't care if a broken mechanic stays just so it remains unplayable

got it

Its not broken... It can be countered... I may hate stall but banning mpull n gengarite seem pointless to me... PS you haven't explained my first question.

 

[Scarf]

Its not broken... It can be countered... I may hate stall but banning mpull n gengarite seem pointless to me... PS you haven't explained my first question.

Do NOT:

• Post your stance on the matter in this thread without proof. (Why? Post in the main suspect thread instead)

 

[Duckymomo Senior]

Ok so I thought we had to get 2800 coil cause I have trouble with English but here is the proof. I think when the time comes I will be voting ban Gengarite but no ban magnet pull.

 

[Funbot28]

Would have gone x-1 but haxs ensued

Anyways, im gonna go ahead and play devil's advocate here and vote No Ban for both since I actually feel trapping presents another aspect to teambuilding that is manageable and just adds another factor when playing (ie: punishes passive play, but can be circumvented otherwise).

Team import coming soon (tm)...

 

[Dragongroudon9]

bro this ladder is ass i simply love good players who get 4 freezes or 10 crits and fuck gengarite + magnet pull

 

[cityscapes]

Can somebody please explain to me why this is ban worthy?

On Smogon these are the criteria...
An Ability should be considered for ban based on:

• "Splashable"ility:
  Can be slapped onto nearly any 'mon, regardless of role, stat spread or moveset .e.g. Shadow Tag and Wonder Guard
• Extreme Augmentation:
  The capabilities of the 'mon it is on that the set in question are difficult or impossible to check or counter. This implies that the power originates from the ability and that the choice of 'mon, item and even moveset, is irrelevant. e.g. Pure Power, Parental Bond

I understand its a pain but I respect the fact that its an effective way of clearing stall mons... These bans are making the gameplay slower and slower... IMO

it's seen as ban worthy because of the second criterion, extreme augmentation. see, magnet pull users and gengarite aren't going to break teams alone, but after they trap what they need to something else like mega diancie can just come in and click boomburst a couple times and win.

you seem to be implying that stall will become this unbreakable force if trapping is banned. this is not true. xurkitree can break it, electric surge zekrom can break it, stakeout users can break it, other stuff can break it too. the emphasis here is on the word can. if you switch your stakeout user into core enforcers until it dies, do you deserve to win? no. this is where the element of skill comes into play.

meanwhile gengarite comes in and throws the element of skill right out the window. like as long as your opponent's hazard remover isn't ghost/bounce/shell/prank then you can actually just indefinitely keep hazards up forcing your opponent to deal with it under the constant threat of gengar just switching in and removing the mon. magnet pull is even easier to use because the opponent doesn't have to use a move first. unless they specifically prepare for trapping, your opponent has no way of playing around these things.

Oh and apparently people cry when they switch in imposter and lose it to a trap pokemon -.- .....

also people won't really be convinced if you say dumb things like this

reqs

http://imgur.com/dQwQw9

Hide

hehehe the link works now

one day i will get undefeated reqs and it will be amazing. also please post good ps backgrounds on my profile because i need them. the same goes for my posts like if i post something stupid please tell me there because no discord because no phone this is a wall of text aaaaaaaaaaa

NO-BAN
Reason: It's not that I think it's not impossible to play around or anything - but banning it might encourage newer players to the meta, and that's always good.On second thought, after taking awhile to think about it, I really don't think Magnet-Pull or Gengarite are broken. Think about it this way. Groudon has many better sets to run that do exactly the same thing over a period of time, yet chip more of an opposing team - magnet pull groudon is really only good at trapping steels and then it's mostly useless thereafter. Gengarite kinda reveals itself from the get go and people make really obvious plays in bringing it in. I'm not so sure banning these is the way to go at all.

Edit: Changed image, cus previous was eh.

i think you're looking at magnet pull pdon in a vacuum. the big thing about it is that it eliminates steel-type counterplay not only to itself but also to the rest of its team. there is a reason why -ate + magnet pull cores have become so prominent recently.

as far as gengarite goes, you haven't really provided a reason as to why it's not broken. every mon reveals itself at team preview, and if people make obvious plays then it's their fault. did you mean that people are forced to play aggressively with it? cause that's a pretty interesting argument tbh

have a nice day shoutouts to simpleflips

 

[aki0s]

i
i think you're looking at magnet pull pdon in a vacuum. the big thing about it is that it eliminates steel-type counterplay not only to itself but also to the rest of its team. there is a reason why -ate + magnet pull cores have become so prominent recently.

as far as gengarite goes, you haven't really provided a reason as to why it's not broken. every mon reveals itself at team preview, and if people make obvious plays then it's their fault. did you mean that people are forced to play aggressively with it? cause that's a pretty interesting argument tbh

I probably am looking at it in a vacumn, but my gut feel says banning it wouldn't be better for the meta in the long run. Like you, I am entitled to an opinion - I'm not going to change it after changing it once before.
Regarding Gengarite: yes, you are forced to play pro-actively seeing Gengar on team preview. I didn't make myself clear so yeah, but essentially seeing it should change your playstyle.

I can't really explain myself better - but I see Trapping + Mon as a core. Like any other core it is either going to be really good or really bad. This combination happens to be kind of good - but it's not any better than anything else. Illusion + mon works in exactly the same manner - however it's not as clear cut and dry as it relies on your opponent to do what you want them to do. The combination (trapping + mon) is not unbeatable.

Spore requires you to run safety goggles on most of your pokemon. People complain about this, but not too much and they sort of just accept it as-is. Is it really to much to ask that a wall should carry a shed-shell? The literal answer to the problem is an item and being pro-active in your playstyle. Have most of us become so lazy that we jump to "BAN" whenever something becomes just a tad harder to play against? That goes against my idea of what BH is. My idea of what BH is, isn't everyone's else - granted. But it feels as if there is an overwhelming will of a few people that are forcing people to vote BAN - kind of like what you're doing now by specifically quoting my reasoning. I don't like it.

 

[Funbot28]

Adding on to the above, team preview is a huge aspect when considering the potential of trapping as although Illusion does somewhat skew the presence of Stag Gar, aggressive pivoting/double switching can actually pressure the Gar from actually netting any KOs, especially considering if hazards are up and the accumualtion of chip damage from weak attacks it usually can only switch into. Of course Shadow Tag Mega Gengar is going to have a field day if one chooses to keep spamming recovery moves or status moves in general that do not affect it, but it would be more wise to "play ahead", especially if Stag Gar can disrupt your team strucure into a disadvantageous state.

I am not undermining the importance of sustaining defensive pivots with recovery moves however, and will admit that a good Stag Gar player can often force their opponent into 50/50 positions, but I still feel thats more of an issue in the teambuilding stage and not one that should only be looked at in battle if you catch my drift.