BH BH7 Suspect #3: Trapping - Voter Identification & Discussion

[Quantum Tesseract]

Ban on both.

Adding on to the above, team preview is a huge aspect when considering the potential of trapping as although Illusion does somewhat skew the presence of Stag Gar, aggressive pivoting/double switching can actually pressure the Gar from actually netting any KOs, especially considering if hazards are up and the accumualtion of chip damage from weak attacks it usually can only switch into. Of course Shadow Tag Mega Gengar is going to have a field day if one chooses to keep spamming recovery moves or status moves in general that do not affect it, but it would be more wise to "play ahead", especially if Stag Gar can disrupt your team strucure into a disadvantageous state.

I am not undermining the importance of sustaining defensive pivots with recovery moves however, and will admit that a good Stag Gar player can often force their opponent into 50/50 positions, but I still feel thats more of an issue in the teambuilding stage and not one that should only be looked at in battle if you catch my drift.

While I see the thought process, this really isnt true at all. Even with preparation, mgar destroys stall; I ran an mbounce dark type, 3 ghosts, a shed shell, and chansey, with pivot moves on all but one and magic coat on chansey in case I got cought untransformed by mgar, such as versus an opposing chansey. I still had three of my 4 losses entirely because of it. Obviously I could have prepared a little more, like by running bounce instead of unaware on registeel, but if you have to run both an item and ability on every mon on the entire team thats seriously a problem, especially since mgar isnt the only pokemon in the metagame. In general, theres almost nothing a stall team can do against Knock Off+Mgar, especially with hazards, without being able to do absolutely nothing else.
Here are a pair of replays demonstrating what im talking about:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmonssuspecttest-596140611
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmonssuspecttest-596147319
Yes, if I hadnt made that mistake with yveltal I might have done better, but it wouldnt have mattered; it could just have come in while I used rapid spin to remove rocks, or anchor shot at chansey, or recovered, and then I would have been in the same bad situation. The idea that you should have to build your entire team to not autolose to a single stallbreaker that can still take an enormus toll on you anyway is just absurd: this pokemon isnt remotely balanced for the tier.



As far as magnet pull goes, its similarly uncompetative. Klangs set is just one example, and it means that running chansey gives the opponent a 20% chance to win every turn registeel is in, and there will be nothing you can do about it- not to mention that registeel is a very bulky pokemon, and in almost every game it will get dozens of free turn on the feild, and that a phazing move on registeel is viable anyway. Magnet Pull also does the same for any steel type, making it so you have to have shed shell or not be able to use it all game - thats an s rank, 2 a ranks, and 3 b ranks you cant even use should they have this one ability that you have no idea whether or not they are running until you run straight into it. Obviously Primal Groudon is the best user, but its far from the only one, and the ability is independantly broken.

 

[motherlove]

Smt smt, I already posted at other times, see fsk's post n shit.
Also refer to anna's post on gengar + hazards, gengar controls the hazard game like no other it's ridiculous.

It's 3 am and we've been discussing this for months, can't be bothered to write a post here. Ban both fk that. I don't even care about opness n shit, I don't care how often it works, it's about what's fair, and shadow tag isn't.

Hey btw I thought I might as well share this really cool team that ma boi ign is cancer some ppl have used to ladder.

import: http://pokepast.es/bbd121ec0595843a
replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmonssuspecttest-596137365

Hope y'all had fun, I know I did.
Hugs and Kisses <3 <3 <3 xxxxxxxxx love you, bye <3

 

[Pikachuun]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-peaked-3-סְפִירוֹת.3607672/

I think this should be proof enough imo, tl;dr BAN both please

If not tho

 

[DarkRisingRay]

DO NOT BAN!!!

I believe they both belong in this meta as a counter to common annoyances in the meta.

 

[Rumors]

I believe they both belong in this meta as a counter to common annoyances in the meta.

Elaborate? What common annoyances are absolutely necessary to counter and can only be done so with trapping? And mind, "broken A counters broken B so don't ban A" isn't really considered a valid arguement.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

Elaborate? What common annoyances are absolutely necessary to counter and can only be done so with trapping? And mind, "broken A counters broken B so don't ban A" isn't really considered a valid arguement.

I am pretty sure he meant to say keep those trapping abilities to keep stall from becoming dominant (cough cough Adrian Marin who I don't even know), which is the same opinion I have. For instance, he does not want to spend 100+ turns of match just to kill Registeel or Solgaleo to open a way for his team to sweep, no matter what it takes.

 

[yoman5]

I am pretty sure he meant to say keep those trapping abilities to keep stall from becoming dominant (cough cough Adrian Marin who I don't even know), which is the same opinion I have. For instance, he does not want to spend 100+ turns of match just to kill Registeel or Solgaleo to open a way for his team to sweep, no matter what it takes.

Isn't mega gengar stall one of the most prominent abuse cases of gengarite? Take out the spinner/defogger (if it's not giratina) and the game is yours etc etc

 

[RNGIsFatal]

Isn't mega gengar stall one of the most prominent abuse cases of gengarite? Take out the spinner/defogger (if it's not giratina) and the game is yours etc etc

I personally believe that it is true that Shadow Tag is mostly paired with stall, but it also poses immense threat when stapled into balance or offense. Stall teams with stuff like FC Zygarde-C, Unaware Audino, Soundproof Slowbro or others is nearly impenetrable without specifically preparing for them and compromising your wallbreakers (such as Pdon has to run stuff like Refrigerate for surprise kill while it is better used as Tinted Lens + Band or Magnet Pull trapper in general).

Meanwhile, Mega Gengar can just wait for non-Magic Bounce variant wall to use something that won't affect or 2HKO itself, including but not limited to Rapid Spin, Defog, any sort of recovery, hazard control moves, etc.

Yes, Stag stall is very prominent, but that doesn't mean Stag is not prominent just because it fits into different archetype of the team. It still makes opponents feel like doing a brain surgery with a chainsaw where a single slip results in death.

Edit: It does something against offense too: against Pikachunn, my Specs MMY was trapped and killed by Mgar after blowing up Gyarados with Fleur Cannon.

 

[E4 Flint]

For instance, he does not want to spend 100+ turns of match just to kill Registeel or Solgaleo to open a way for his team to sweep, no matter what it takes.

Whether pro or anti ban, decisions shouldn't be made just because, what is in effect, "I don't want to deal with it".

The goal was never to have a perfectly balanced equation between stall and offense. In any case, I'd argue that true stall hasn't and won't be "dominant" for quite a while.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

Whether pro or anti ban, decisions shouldn't be made just because, what is in effect, "I don't want to deal with it".

I think I used bad example / expression to say "stall is more prominent with STag", but I personally think this is what DarkRisingRay had in mind.
I will try coming up with better reasons when I post my reqs, thanks for pointing that out.

 

[QY_CS]

I will vote for NOT BAN on both Gengarite and Magnet Pull. Gengarite can only be used on normal Gengar in order to obtain Shadow Tag, which people will be aware of immediately in the team scouting stage of the battle. The way of using Magnet Pull that some asked for a ban is gimmicky and will work only on Imposter pokemon, which are not only unreliable but also depends on how bad the other player is as most team have numerous steel type switchins that are way better than Chansey/Blissey (or Pikachu! jk). The normal way of using Magnet Pull (for example on Primal Groudon) is actually healthy for the metagame, as it actually give teams some way to target Steel Type pokemon that they are weak to. Other reason for Gengarite and Magnet Pull to not be banned would be that they target only defensive Pokemon, which often bring either U-turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot or Baton Pass. This limits these trapping abilities from letting a Pokemon set up freely and sweep the whole team. To add on to these reasons, trapping abilities allow teams to break down some defensive cores otherwise hard to destroy. This adds on to the current defensive inclinced Balanced Hackmons meta and allow more play styles to be used.

 

[tegrof19]

wanting to keep something broken in the meta just because you hate stall being viable is not the right way to go about this

 

[DarkRisingRay]

wanting to keep something broken in the meta just because you hate stall being viable is not the right way to go about this

Just a note: I just trapped a guy who copied my diagla with chansey, imposter is so heavily used in this meta and if I wanna use mpull to neutralize the threat how is it broken?

I have problems with bulky mons who heal, if I use gengar to take care of the problem how is it broken?

Not everyone runs choice items n boosts... Some just wanna play with "skill" to win
To say it doesn't take "skill" to trap someone is really insulting especially when a lot of predictions go into the trapping aspect itself

Whether pro or anti ban, decisions shouldn't be made just because, what is in effect, "I don't want to deal with it".

The goal was never to have a perfectly balanced equation between stall and offense. In any case, I'd argue that true stall hasn't and won't be "dominant" for quite a while.

At the way these suspect tests are going, Stall n boosters will overrun the meta

 

[jrm115]

Just a note: I just trapped a guy who copied my diagla with chansey, imposter is so heavily used in this meta and if I wanna use mpull to neutralize the threat how is it broken?

I have problems with bulky mons who heal, if I use gengar to take care of the problem how is it broken?

Not everyone runs choice items n boosts... Some just wanna play with "skill" to win
To say it doesn't take "skill" to trap someone is really insulting especially when a lot of predictions go into the trapping aspect itself



At the way these suspect tests are going, Stall n boosters will overrun the meta

the problem isnt with mpull killing imposter, or gengarite killing things that heal a lot. the problems lie in how mpull removes not just 1 specific thing, but an entire category of walls that are used to check or counter things like -ate spam, and how gengarite pushes the opponent to need to play perfectly while the stagger needs 1 prediction to knock out a wall.

 

[Zovrah]

Just a note: I just trapped a guy who copied my diagla with chansey, imposter is so heavily used in this meta and if I wanna use mpull to neutralize the threat how is it broken?
I have problems with bulky mons who heal, if I use gengar to take care of the problem how is it broken?

Not everyone runs choice items n boosts... Some just wanna play with "skill" to win
To say it doesn't take "skill" to trap someone is really insulting especially when a lot of predictions go into the trapping aspect itself



At the way these suspect tests are going, Stall n boosters will overrun the meta

Could you maybe elaborate on how it takes skill to use gengarite. Is switching in on a heal and leaving your opponent completely helpless skill?

 

[jrm115]

Could you maybe elaborate on how it takes skill to use gengarite. Is switching in on a heal and leaving your opponent completely helpless skill?

thats not even a good argument
predicting the heal is skill, slow pivoting vs something that heals isnt.
slow pivoting on anything and having the choice of going to gengar or a conventional check/counter isnt.
the problem isnt that your whole team is gengar, but their whole team has to prepare for gengar.

 

[Duckymomo Senior]

Idk if I should be posing this in the suspect and band thread instead but I just want to say that I agree gengarite is uncompetitive and I won't elaborate because many ppl have already said why it is but I think it's important to understand that magnet pull is nowhere near as uncompetitive as gengarite. 1st ppl seem to be saying that magnet pull is op because once u remove your opponent's steel type mons like Mega Diancie just sweep. I feel that this is untrue because even though it does make it easier for Diancie to sweep it is by no means a guaranteed win. If this were the case teams without steel types would automatically lose to Diancie which doesn't happen. 2nd if Diancie is so good at sweeping once steel types are gone then can someone plz tell me why we are suspecting magnet pull instead of Diancie? Lastly I know ppl say that mag pull is uncompetitive because it is a free KO on steels but I would say that about 80% of all steel types run prankster+dbond which makes it a 1 for 1 trade. The rest usually run regen vest which will die to mag pull but regen vest is just as good in mons like pogre or zyg-c. I really don't understand how mag pull is the same lvl of uncompetitive as gengarite or why it even needs a suspect

 

[motherlove]

The problem to some extent isn't really "is trapping overpowered?" but "is trapping fair?". Then there's also the question keeping an underpowered, unfair mechanic which we have done before, and that's where I can understand keeping magpull and banning shadow tag.

 

[DarkRisingRay]

Last thing I'll say... The same people who want trapping to be banned are the same people who use imposter and say "You should improof your team so you don't get counter swept"

I think you should play accordingly if you see a "normal" Gengar in the preview

 

[Zovrah]

Last thing I'll say... The same people who want trapping to be banned are the same people who use imposter and say "You should improof your team so you don't get counter swept"

I think you should play accordingly if you see a "normal" Gengar in the preview

How is this a valid comparison? Imposter is completely controllable by you,improofing is a simple task. Frankly if you get counterswept by imposter it's just a reflection of bad team building. Gengarite isn't in your control like imposter,and you can't simply "play accordingly". Gengar at team preview itself already puts pressure on your opponent,since what it basically means is "Don't click a status move and Don't click a fighting/normal type move" You as the gengarite user don't really have to worry about much,while this pressure is put on your opponent

 

[tegrof19]

How is this a valid comparison? Imposter is completely controllable by you,improofing is a simple task. Frankly if you get counterswept by imposter it's just a reflection of bad team building. Gengarite isn't in your control like imposter,and you can't simply "play accordingly". Gengar at team preview itself already puts pressure on your opponent,since what it basically means is "Don't click a status move and Don't click a fighting/normal type move" You as the gengarite user don't really have to worry about much,while this pressure is put on your opponent

but apparently healing moves are broken sooooooo

 

[motherlove]

The shadow tag argument has been going on for weeks or even months now, with many compelling points pointing at uncompetitiveness, unfairness, removal or player decision, unbearable teambuilding strain, spawn of skewed predictions and win-win situations, making the hazard game completely one sided, removing an entire section of viable mons, lack of viable counterplay and lowkey denying player interaction from the game.

The reason I'm saying this is because most of the no ban arguments I see have either already been addressed multiple times in the past or are just stupid (aki0s, QY_CS). The community decision seems unanimous at this point and I doubt it'll change which is why I'm not gonna waste time reiterating the same points that, again, we've literally argued for months. But if you're confused there's some reading you can do to inform yourself.

 

[GmU pokeboss9]

I pass on this one.

Seriously for an oldschooler like me just hearing the word Shadow Tag scares me;
reminds me of the FF6 train scene "No escape"

Everything was trappable,
Quantum feeling safe from trapping with his 3 ghost types, haha.

Players are trapped by their mindset.

 

[Kadabrium]

Ban gengarite, don't ban magnet pull.
Gengarite is borderline broken to me which normally i would not have wanted banned, but just as a personal taste im tired of seeing any nonmega/legendary pokemon on team preview.
Magnet pull is not broken at all, especially with such a small player base and 6v6 format. If it were like BSS I probably would have considered it somewhat broken. My first team this gen had a magnet groudon initially but I got way fewer easy kills with it than with illusion given the current player base and their mindset of throwing counterz. At least you need to double and then outspeed to kill with magnet

 

[cityscapes]

you've activated my trap card (lol)

ESSAY WRITE

hidden messages what are those

Hello. I think that people are associating Gengarite too much with stallbreaking, and seeing it as a "necessary evil" to reliably deal with bulky opponents, such as Poison Heal users. Banning it, however, would actually serve to weaken stall. Stall teams in the current metagame, such as the HeadsILoseTailsYouWin classic, often carry Gengarite themselves. The use of Gengarite on these teams is different, however, because it can reliably eliminate slower stallbreakers.

As an example: You have a Choice Band Steelworker Kartana. By clicking Sunsteel Strike or Sacred Fire, you can reliably OHKO or 2HKO every mon on your opponent's stall team (let's say something like fur coat gira/prankster regi/imposter/magic bounce audino/gengar/ph audino). If you play it well, it's fair to say that you deserve to win. However, if Gengar has Mega Evolved and it happens to carry Moongeist Beam, Kartana is suddenly limited to only taking out one mon:

252 SpA Gengar-Mega Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kartana: 294-346 (91.3 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

I didn't just choose Kartana for this because of its low Special Defense, there are other mons that are potentially restricted this way. In fact, the arguably best mon in the metagame (Primal Groudon) loses to Steam Eruption variants, while Mega Rayquaza can't take an Ice Beam.

Let me emphasize the difference between Gengar carrying the wrong move and a bad team matchup: if your team is weak to an opponent's sweeper, that doesn't mean you just automatically lose to it. You can potentially play around it and put yourself in a winning position. This isn't possible when playing against Gengarite, because as soon as your mon gets pivoted on, it's all over.

Gengarite has been thought to make the metagame more offensive, but in fact banning it will actually make stall worse. This is because without Gengarite, stallbreakers will be able to viably run recovery without the risk of Gengar killing them. Sets like this will become viable:

new meta (Groudon-Primal) @ Life Orb
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- V-Create
- Thousand Arrows / Precipice Blades
- Ice Beam / Draco Meteor / Fleur Cannon
- Roost / Leech Seed

My point is this: the stall team minus Gengar above fails to actually break this set (except for imposter but you guys should know the drill by now). In return, whenever Groudon predicts correctly, the stall team loses a mon. This is fair because the stall team didn't prepare for Groudon (although tbf it is really hard to prepare for; note that even the designated answer, Giratina, fails to wall it as well). However, what happens if, for example, Groudon mispredicts against Giratina, uses V-Create, and gets killed by a Z-Move? That's completely and utterly the fault of the Groudon user for making such a careless play. This is the kind of "skillful play" we seek to promote: as long as the Groudon player doesn't make a mistake, they should be able to win.

Ultimately, I think that for a good metagame, it's important to allow players to win through good play even in a bad matchup, and Gengarite just takes away from that so much. It turns the game into "if Gengar has this move then I lose" and other people have already gone over the other negative effects it has on things like hazards. That's all I have to say, and the reasoning on why I 100% support a ban on Gengarite. Gonna get to Magnet Pull later see you all in a few o/