BH BH7 Suspect #3: Trapping - Voter Identification & Discussion

[Traparapa]

Vote: Ban Gengarnite Reason There is often no or difficult counterplay
Not-Ban Magnet Pull with Voltschwitch and U turn aswell as Shell Bell This Ability has alot of counters and should stay unbanned

 

[zolaski]

 

[Deleted User 91486]

Traparapa: Volt Switch is no counterplay as the most prominent user of MagPull, PDon, is immune to it. U-turn is no counterplay either as the steel walls which are the target of Magnet Pullers are too slow and get incinerated before they can use u-turn.
The item is called "shed shell" and not "shell bell" ;)

 

[snow]

Magnet Pull: Ban
Gengarite: Ban
#MakeBHGreatAgain
I forfeited every match that was going to take me over 10 mins to play.

 

[sugarhigh]

Hide

Got reqs.
I'm probably gonna vote ban for gengarite cuz its obviously broken, however I dunno how broken magnet pull is. The thing it accomplishes can also be accomplished w/ just having a good coverage move on ure breakers. Since the main buffer pivot mons are registeel/solgaleo it is rather easy to abuse those mons without magnet pull whereas gengarite u can trap anything. Though I can see the merit of it being broken to individuals, though the mons it traps are still easily abused w. just easy coverage. For example: diancie-mega pixilate can ohko both solgaleo and registeel after a boomburst w/ vcreate.
TLDR:
ban: Gengarite obviously broken
dnb/abstain: magnet pull

 

[BIG G CHOPPA]

shoutouts to MiyoKa for helping me cop reqs :]

 

[TheFplayer]

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BAN magnet pull
DO NOT BAN gengarite

Let me explain why.
In metas like OU or UU, offensive and defensive playstyles are usually balanced, sometimes one is better than the other but not always.
In BH, however, offensive is much stronger than defensive, because of all the broken abilities available, the coverage moves and the sheer power behind. This makes defensive role compression in one team really high, specially with imposter running around, meaning that if you lose a mon that was meant to wall something in particular, you are going on a real struggle. Magnet Pull can easily trap and kill steel types, a key part of nearly all defensive cores, (as it can stop many strategies from going crazy). Magnet pull doesnt even require you to make great predictions, as any lost u-turn can completely change the course of the battle, because as a steel type the only thing you can do is pray v-create misses. And yes, prankster could save you, but with gen 7 priority nerfs I don´t think prankster is that usefull. You may think you could play around magnet pull, but the difference between gengarite and magnet pull is that you see gengarite coming, while you dont see magnet pull coming, making it even harder to beat. How do you know the enemy groudon has got magnet pull? Unless you see desolate land coming, you dont. Maybe he has tinted lens and you are all the time playing carefully so he doesnt trap you, which is litterally playing a 5 vs 6.
Gengarite, however, is different. Yes, it can trap ANYTHING, but you can beat it, mainly because you expect it. Is it difficult? Yes, it definitely is, but it´s also difficult to beat mega-ray, to beat the primals, mewtwo x and y, etc. Playing around him, and having a game plan is crucial, but i dont think its ban worthy.
Remember it´s my opinion if u dont agree pls dont be mean. Peace.

 

[jrm115]

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View attachment 84658

BAN magnet pull
DO NOT BAN gengarite

Let me explain why.
In metas like OU or UU, offensive and defensive playstyles are usually balanced, sometimes one is better than the other but not always.
In BH, however, offensive is much stronger than defensive, because of all the broken abilities available, the coverage moves and the sheer power behind. This makes defensive role compression in one team really high, specially with imposter running around, meaning that if you lose a mon that was meant to wall something in particular, you are going on a real struggle. Magnet Pull can easily trap and kill steel types, a key part of nearly all defensive cores, (as it can stop many strategies from going crazy). Magnet pull doesnt even require you to make great predictions, as any lost u-turn can completely change the course of the battle, because as a steel type the only thing you can do is pray v-create misses. And yes, prankster could save you, but with gen 7 priority nerfs I don´t think prankster is that usefull. You may think you could play around magnet pull, but the difference between gengarite and magnet pull is that you see gengarite coming, while you dont see magnet pull coming, making it even harder to beat. How do you know the enemy groudon has got magnet pull? Unless you see desolate land coming, you dont. Maybe he has tinted lens and you are all the time playing carefully so he doesnt trap you, which is litterally playing a 5 vs 6.
Gengarite, however, is different. Yes, it can trap ANYTHING, but you can beat it, mainly because you expect it. Is it difficult? Yes, it definitely is, but it´s also difficult to beat mega-ray, to beat the primals, mewtwo x and y, etc. Playing around him, and having a game plan is crucial, but i dont think its ban worthy.
Remember it´s my opinion if u dont agree pls dont be mean. Peace.

as i keep telling everyone who votes against banning gengarite
it doesnt matter if you can expect it, it comes in slowly (off of a u-turn or volt switch from a teammate, usually a wall) and it only comes in if it gets the chance to trap. if you have a single team member that can be trapped, even if they have a pivoting move it won't matter because the gengar can encore them into stealth rocks, or a recovery move, or even normal type attacks. if every mon has to prepare for it, it's centralizing. with a u-turning teammate, you don't need prediction like you think, and you can play it into almost everything the same way you play magnet pull into steels.

 

[Jho]

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Possibly the best alt for this sus.

From my experience with Magnet Pull i dont think its objectively "broken" just really, really good in some situations and ive yet to make a decision on what i think about it, where as gengarite blows and should be gone.

 

[willdbeast]

Reqs n stuff

 

[Anna says hi]

hello

 

[RoaringBlaze]

BAN Magnet Pull & Gengarite

 

[Rumors]

Angry shout out to Flint for doing this suspect during a major holiday (for some of us) and a Steam Sale. Though I guess it ensures only dedicated players are doing the test. Anyway, proof of these reqs will expire in 31 days, though we should long since be done voting by then.

Fun fact: I hit 2597 and took a screenshot just in case I hit a loosing streak and needed to rage about it.

Stance on bans

I've always felt permanent trapping was always unhealthy and uncompetitive for the meta, BH or otherwise, so my vote should be obvious. But here's why, in no particular order.

• By definition, a trapper has no checks and counters because, also by definition, to qualify as a check/counter, a Pokemon must be able to switch into it. Trapping disables switching except under specific circumstances.
• Ghost-types are vulnerable to a major trapper in Gengar, which sometimes runs offensive trapping sets.
• Only Ghost-type safe from a major Magnet Puller is Giratina, and only if its healthy depending on Primal Groudon's item. Gengar is too frail and Aegislash is weak to both STABs. Other Ghosts are pretty niche.
• Shed Shell is vulnerable to Knock Off, which at least one Pokemon per team is running most matches, often negating that safety net over a game of moderate length or longer (about 20-25 turns).
• Manually switching in a trapper, particularly Gengar and its fragility, requires good prediction skill. Slow pivoting in a trapper requires only minor knowledge of game mechanics to pull off and, therefore, little to no skill.
• Trappers afford a skewed risk/reward ratio when played correctly, pressuring an opponent before they've even taken to the field (is that Mewtwo-X a Magnet Puller? Sure, my Registeel is Prankster D.Bond, but what if it has Taunt or Encore or I lose my Safety and it Spores me?) and preventing them from safely taking otherwise correct plays even in otherwise risk-free situations.
  
• With "role compression" being prevalent in BH, a trapper safely removing one Pokemon from play can result in a victory. For example, losing a Zygarde may mean the opposing player can no longer wall Primal Groudon. Conversely, a Primal Groudon thats been caught may mean the opposing player can no longer break Solgaleo.
  
• Trappers also removes agency from the opposing player, denying them most, or all, of their options depending on the Trapper, the Trappee, and their sets, forcing them to spend several turns sitting and watching helplessly as the opponent kills the trapped Pokemon or uses it to set-up a wincon for (nearly) free.
• Best case scenario for the opposing player with a correctly played trapper, the trapper gets (nearly) free momentum with a switch.
• Pivot moves often do not allow an escape as most pivoters run minimal speed while most trappers run maximum. Even then, few pivot users outspeed high speed Pokemon either way. As such, pivot only prevents trapped if its used immediately. Even all-attack sets can be locked out of an escape with potential gimmicks like Imprison U-Turn.
• Permanent trapping allows the trapper to have undue over certain aspects of a match, such as hazard control, as the opposing player cannot safely set or remove hazards lest they risk being caught out.
• Magic Bounce offers some safety against trapping sets, but none against others and the ability can be removed.

I feel like I'm missing a point or two, but that should cover all the important ones. Mind that this applies to both S.Tag and Magnet Pull.

 

[RatchetDaddyK]

ive only been familiar with this meta for like 5 days since i saw this suspect thread randomly, ive never had any problem with magnet pull (probably because ive never used any steels in BH lol), and ive only seen registeel as the main steel, which always carries u-turn, or the occasional aegislash/celesteela. i dont feel gengarite is broken either, however the entrainment mega gengar set is something else. id rather just not have mega gengar in general. but im voting to keep both of these trapping mechanics, its honestly not as bad as many other strategies in bh.

 

[SomeIrish]

Ban both pls kthx

I'll post more about it later

 

[Deleted User 91486]

RatchetDaddyK Entrainment Mega Gengar actually isn't that good as it can be checked/countered so easily:

• In general, if you lose the spooky plate, Gengar becomes useless for the rest of the match, as it can't do anything to opposing ghost types like Giratina or Aegislash without spooky judgment.
• Magic Bounce bounces Entrainment back, giving Gengar Normalize. This allows you to knock the spooky plate off.
  
• Trick or Switcheroo work even after Entrainment and stop Gengar entirely by removing its spooky plate.
• Judgment and Revelation Dance and Z-Moves aren't affected by Normalize, so that you can just take the Entrainment and kill Gengar in return.
• Gengar is vulnerable to priority such as FakeSpeed or Prankster Spore/Taunt, as long as it isn't supported by PsyTerrain or hit the priority user with Entrainment on the switchin
  
• MMY and most scarfers outspeed and OHKO it.
• Entrainment can't remove abilities like Comatose

Something like MAudino with Magic Bounce and Knock Off is a very good check to Gengar and a good mon in general, as it doesn't lose its ability to core enforcer. I have also used an Unaware Gyarados with Trickeroo and Choice Band with great success.

 

[SomeIrish]

RatchetDaddyK

• Magic Bounce bounces Entrainment back, giving Gengar Normalize. This allows you to knock the spooky plate off.

I think you mean it gets Magic Bounce, either way it's still pretty useless in that scenario.
You also forgot to mention that Normalize doesn't stop walls from giving it status like sleep, paralysis, encore, taunt, etc.

 

[cityscapes]

View attachment 84120
I will vote for NOT BAN on both Gengarite and Magnet Pull. Gengarite can only be used on normal Gengar in order to obtain Shadow Tag, which people will be aware of immediately in the team scouting stage of the battle. The way of using Magnet Pull that some asked for a ban is gimmicky and will work only on Imposter pokemon, which are not only unreliable but also depends on how bad the other player is as most team have numerous steel type switchins that are way better than Chansey/Blissey (or Pikachu! jk). The normal way of using Magnet Pull (for example on Primal Groudon) is actually healthy for the metagame, as it actually give teams some way to target Steel Type pokemon that they are weak to. Other reason for Gengarite and Magnet Pull to not be banned would be that they target only defensive Pokemon, which often bring either U-turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot or Baton Pass. This limits these trapping abilities from letting a Pokemon set up freely and sweep the whole team. To add on to these reasons, trapping abilities allow teams to break down some defensive cores otherwise hard to destroy. This adds on to the current defensive inclinced Balanced Hackmons meta and allow more play styles to be used.

fam the way it works is that the steel spams dragon tail/circle throw (roar + soundproof works too). if imposter gets dragged in, they immediately switch to the other magnet pull user (which is immune to the phazing move) while imposter can't do a thing. basically the regi user has a chance of winning every time they click a phazing move.

ive only been familiar with this meta for like 5 days since i saw this suspect thread randomly, ive never had any problem with magnet pull (probably because ive never used any steels in BH lol), and ive only seen registeel as the main steel, which always carries u-turn, or the occasional aegislash/celesteela. i dont feel gengarite is broken either, however the entrainment mega gengar set is something else. id rather just not have mega gengar in general. but im voting to keep both of these trapping mechanics, its honestly not as bad as many other strategies in bh.

but im voting to keep both of these trapping mechanics, its honestly not as bad as many other strategies in bh.

the best no ban reasoning right here folks

both of you guys please read the below post, it summarizes what people find "broken" about gengarite. thanks

I'd like to have a discussion on trapping. Specifically, how it impacts the play of the match and skews predictions extremely in the user's favor. Let's start at team preview. You see a non-mega Gengar, and assume it's running illusion. It could be running something else like Intimidate as well but you don't know if it is, so your only real play is to assume it's illusion. You make your choice and select a lead. Let's say you lead with something that isn't Chansey(or don't have Chansey on your team) and find that you have the momentum advantage. You have no idea whether the thing in front of you is an illusion or not, so you can't blindly click a non-pivot move or attack since they could just mega evolve and encore you and then you've lost a mon right off the bat. You're forced to U-turn out to be sure this isn't an illusion. If it turns out to be Gengar, then you made the only non-losing play. But if it's not an illusion, then they've managed to leave you unable to capitalize on your momentum, and even done some damage to you in the process. Not only that, but you have to guess whether something's an illusion every time a mon switches in undamaged, forcing you to take massive risks to capitalize on any momentum you have.

And your opponent hasn't even mega evolved yet.

Note that simply by being on the foe's team, Gengar poses a huge threat. No other mon in the tier does that. -Ates and Groudon may be absolutely nasty to face, but they can't threaten you when they aren't on the field.

So after that they've fucked with your mind and some U-turns have been used, your opponent decides that it's the time to evolve Gengar. At this point in the game, you have to do a complete shift in the way you play the match. Before, your safe options were pretty limited, but only versus things that could possibly be an illusion. Now, your safe options versus EVERYTHING are extremely limited. If you ever click a move that

• does not pivot you out
• does not phaze the opponent
• does not 2HKO Gengar
• does not nullify or change the foe's ability
• does not prevent Gengar from using Encore the following turn
• and has more than 5 PP remaining

and your Pokemon is not Magic Bounce, Ghost-type, holding a Shed Shell, and does not have Prankster Parting Shot/Baton Pass, then you run the risk of losing that Pokemon to Gengar. In fact, if your Pokemon doesn't have a pivot move and can't KO/phaze Gengar or remove its ability, then it doesn't matter whether they have Magic Bounce or not - everything they do is unsafe and liable to be trapped by Gengar. Even switching them in is unsafe, and you can consider that Pokemon to be a dead slot until Gengar faints. Even if a Pokemon is semi-safe, some moves they do are unsafe.

The only Pokemon that are completely safe from Gengar are Magic Bounce Pokemon with pivoting moves, Ghost types, faster Pokemon with pivot moves (pretty much just Mewtwo Y, which Gengar does not like staying in on anyway) and Prankster Parting Shot/Baton Pass Pokemon. Everything else cannot do any of the following:

• Use a healing move
• Use a Protect clone
• Use weak coverage moves, resisted STAB moves, and damaging utility moves
• Set entry hazards
• Remove entry hazards
• Use Haze, Topsy-Turvy, Heart Swap, or Destiny Bond (common anti-setup moves)
• Attempt to burn a foe (either with Scald or Will-o-Wisp)
• Use Trick or Switcheroo

That's pretty big.
The first two items on the list basically mean that any healing your Pokemon do must be completely passive. Your walls are much easier to break when they're recovering only 1/8 per turn at best. The third item means that slow Pokemon(typically regenvest walls) cannot use most coverage moves, and some utility moves like Metal Burst and Nature's Madness. The fourth and fifth items are the biggest issues. As soon as your foe Mega evolves Gengar, they gain near-complete control over the hazard game. Playing the entire game with hazards on your side and no way to remove them is an uphill battle. The sixth item neuters most anti-setup Pokemon (if they weren't already taking a hard enough hit from the lack of healing). The seventh item protects Gengar's teammates, as Gengar doesn't fear a burn or weak Scalds. With Gengar evolved, nearly all of your options have extremely unfavorable risk/reward. This skews predictions heavily in the favor of the Gengar player. One(or more) of your teamslots faints the instant it touches the field, and most of your options are grayed out. Even the "safe" options do negligible damage thanks to Gengar's double resistance to Bug, and usually just maintain the status quo.

Lastly, Imposters are actually safe to use against Gengar. (unless you imposter something that lacks a pivot move or the Gengar has Spore or Disable) Assuming you use an "unsafe" move as Gengar switches in, then as the Perish count hits 1, you will run out of PP on the move you're encored into and will be able to pivot out on the perish turn unless the Gengar user decides to go for a double down with a Protect clone.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-588988665 (Turn 107)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7balancedhackmons-589527089 Also a second match in which I pester my opponent with illusion throughout the first half of the match, and eventually trap his regenvest Groudon and lock it into Poison Fang, letting Mewtwo clean his team.

Magnet pull is completely different in how it affects your decisions both before and after it's revealed, and I'll cover that later. Same goes for Normalize+Anchor Shot Gengar.

Last thing I'll say... The same people who want trapping to be banned are the same people who use imposter and say "You should improof your team so you don't get counter swept"

stop it. just stop. this argument makes no sense whatsoever and frankly i'm disappointed. come on guys you can make better arguments than this

 

[RNGIsFatal]

I see interesting reasoning (unfortunately not all of them are noteworthy) from both sides.

I would like to step up and say why (I believe) Gengarite is banworthy, for those who:

* Seem to lack experience of going against Gengarite in BH ladder game
* Seem to lack knowledge about how Gengarite works
* Seem to believe Gengarite user only fits in stall teams and is powerless against hyperoffense

1. Stop thinking stuff like:

"Why ban Gengarite when it doesn't do anything other than trapping"

First off, Gengarite is not all about trapping something like Fur Coat Chansey with Shadow Tag, it usually carries a surprise move to snipe something, including but not limited to Steam Eruption, Ice Beam, and others:

252 SpA Gengar-Mega Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 452-536 (111.8 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 380-448 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gengar-Mega Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 234-276 (57 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Why am I posting these blatantly obvious and well-known calcs? It is to show that Gengar can disguise as something really passive as Registeel and OHKO non-regenvest or Desolate Land variants of Primal Groudon, OHKOs Mega Ray with 50% chance which is considerable and easily turned into 100% chance after chip, and eliminate Mega Audino with two Sludge Wave while passive Audino can't do much back (if Audino decides to stall out by recovering, it will be Encored, and it mostly won't expect Sludge Wave from Gengar under Illusion until it takes first blow).

Gengarite is literally slappable on any teams, because it can just sit behind Illusion and snipe something with aforementioned moves, or wait for the time to Encore. How would you feel if Gengarite user pops out of hyperoffensive team and uses Encore to make your Fur Coat Audino repeat Shore Up, when that bunny imposterproofs your entire team? You either will let it die or make it worn down over the match.

2. Stop thinking stuff like:

"Gengarite is too passive and needs very specific team archetype to fit in and has no viable roles against hyperoffense"

This is what someone said about Gengarite but I will keep it anonymous.

I will analyze a replay against Pikachuun, and I guess I am okay to copy and paste this over since he used this for RMT.

My team:
(Specs + Psychic Surge MMY / Scarf + Magnet Pull Pdon / Spooky Plate + Normalize Gengar / Fur Coat Giratina / Magic Bounce Audino / Prankster Registeel)

Pikachuun's annoying af team:
(Imposter Chansey / Gengarite Gengar / Fur Coat Chansey / Fur Coat Giratina with unremovable item / Magic Bounce Audino / Poison Heal Gyarados)

In this game I had to be heavily reliant on my MMY for following reasons:

* Primal Groudon was useless since there were no Steel-types on Pikachuun's team and it also couldn't break Fur Coat Chansey / FC Giratina / PH Gyarados , and using Switcheroo always failed thanks to Giratina
* Gengar did exactly 0 damage to Audino
* Both teams' Giratina and Audino walled each other, letting Pikachuun's Audino's Rocky Helmet take more advantage as the game progresses

My MMY's moveset was: Psycho Boost, Psystrike, Fleur Cannon, and Volt Switch, all of which will be locked into because of Choice Specs.

This meant I had to blow up Audino ASAP using Psycho Boost before Rocky Helmet chips even more damage to my team, 2HKO Fur Coat Chansey with Psystrike (even this can only be done with Stealth Rock damage + good dmg roll and Magic Bounce Audino made this not possible), kill Giratina next, and kill Gyarados.

After tedious cycle...
Turn 18

1. Use Psycho Boost
- Giratina dies but choon won't let it happen would he?
- Imposter switches in but that is also dumb idea considering my moveset has been revealed to choon and therefore he knows my Registeel walls it
- FC Chansey happens
- Gyarados switches in, and by that point I didn't know its moveset so I had to be wary of potential Pursuit

2. Use Psystrike
- Giratina stays in and laughs at it (Fur Coat)
- Imposter obviously won't come in
- FC Chansey won't risk this
- Gyarados happens

3. Use Fleur Cannon
- Giratina will die to this but it will switch out
- Gyarados will die if it switches into this
- Imposter can also switch in but choon didn't know MMY's moveset at this point so he wouldn't risk it
- FC Chansey might happen

4. Use Volt Switch
- Anything except Gyarados will laugh at it
- Gyarados can only be OHKOed by Specs + Volt Switch if crit happens

"Hey RNG you can just use Fleur Cannon because it has the least consequence even if you miss the prediction and can potentially kill 2 'mons"

Right, I should do that.

HA GET SNIPED

-> Mega evolved Gengar with Shadow Tag

MMY was locked into -2 Fleur Cannon which Gengar doesn't give a crap taking, and it died to Perish Song. The rest of my team couldn't do anything against the team, so I gave up. And thanks to my luck, I faced the same team with the same team of mine, and lost another chunk of COIL. Because of that stupid Gengarite I had to torture myself 3 extra days to get reqs for vote.

How stupid is this Gengarite? MMY clearly beats Gengar with typing, speed, and other stats, but it still has to watch out for Gengar just because there is one Dark-type next to it.

If Gengar does this stuff to MMY which is one of the most common core of hyperoffense teams, that means it can do the same stuff to Regigigas / Pdon / Pogre / Mega Ray after they break walls using coverage moves that can't 2HKO Gengar.

For the love of God if you are going to say Gengarite isn't broken don't spam in PS chat saying it can't do anything against hyperoffense because it is a threat to every single team and can torture any unprepared teams.

Thanks

"Facing Gengarite is like doing a brain surgery with a chainsaw - you slip once, and you are dead"
- Anna says hi

 

[aki0s]

* Primal Groudon was useless since there were no Steel-types on Pikachuun's team and it also couldn't break Fur Coat Chansey / FC Giratina / PH Gyarados , and using Switcheroo always failed thanks to Giratina

Think about it this way. Groudon has many better sets to run that do exactly the same thing over a period of time, yet chip more of an opposing team - magnet pull groudon is really only good at trapping steels and then it's mostly useless thereafter.

I imagine if you weren't magnet pull P-don your matchup would have been better.

 

[RNGIsFatal]

I imagine if you weren't magnet pull P-don your matchup would have been better.

It would have been much better indeed if I had stuff like tinted lens or other ability. This is part of the reason why I say Magnet Pull isn't that problematic due to the user losing viability a lot outsides trapping Steel-types.

 

[aki0s]

It would have been much better indeed if I had stuff like tinted lens or other ability. This is part of the reason why I say Magnet Pull isn't that problematic due to the user losing viability a lot outsides trapping Steel-types.

I know bb. Just hi-jacking your post to use it as an example for others that are calling for magnet pull ban.

 

[cityscapes]

I know bb. Just hi-jacking your post to use it as an example for others that are calling for magnet pull ban.

well it's not like he lacked the coverage to break a wall or something. in fact he could have potentially 6-0d the opposing team with mmy alone except that gengar was stupid. groudon didn't really need to do anything

also if you don't mind me asking are you still no ban on gengarite? and if so, why?

 

[aki0s]

well it's not like he lacked the coverage to break a wall or something. in fact he could have potentially 6-0d the opposing team with mmy alone except that gengar was stupid. groudon didn't really need to do anything

also if you don't mind me asking are you still no ban on gengarite? and if so, why?

I've just never really had trouble with it, honest. So subjectively I don't feel right voting to ban something if I've never really experienced the effects complained of. I get that it limits teambuilding and some people have trouble with it - but I'd be lying to myself if I voted ban. And I hate lying to myself.

Regarding being good or not for the meta and my votes affect on anything - I don't have a very huge influence; So I doubt my personal, mostly unsubstantiated opinion, is going to change any-one else. And if there's no-one to vote "no-ban" - how would our resident essay writers earn their bread?

 

[Ren]

s/o partys for god hos