CAP 25 - Part 7 - Competitive Ability Discussion

[Thathyena]

Okay, time to throw my hat in on this one. I’m gonna focus my efforts on 25g for now, because I think that’s the one that needs the best coordination in order to be competitively viable.

I’m supportive of both Galvanize and Triage. I think these abilities are our best chance for specialization against the existing grass types in CAP. In order for 25g to be viable, it needs to specialize away from the other grass types in CAP right now (Bulu, Kartana, Jumbao, Ferrothorn, and Pyroak). Defensively, I don’t think it would be possible for us to do better than Pyroak and Ferrothorn. In terms of physically offensive, it’s also going to be difficult to push past Kar and Bulu with our stat limitations, and specially offensive might be difficult to push past Bao. What’s good about these abilities that everyone has pointed out so far is that they give us access to priority, which helps us differentiate ourselves from the other offensive mons in the tier. But I think one of the real upsides of these options is that they also give us the option to go specially offensive. I think 25g will have a really difficult time differentiating itself from the overwhelming power of Kartana and Tapu Bulu, even with priority. But both Galvanize and Triage give us good options to use as a specially offensive attacker, and I think our typing will make 25g able to stand out against Jumbao.

That said, I think that to ensure that 25g fills a niche the other CAP grass types do not, our best niche is to make 25g a strong, special attacking priority user. This gives us the option to be a fast attacking, slow pivoting mon like Scizor (credit to Frostbiyt for pointing this out), which is a clear niche over Jumbao. I prefer Triage over Galvanize because it has stronger specially offensive priority moves of both types than Galvanize. Being specially offensive would also make sure that we aren’t overshadowed by Revenankh as a Triage user, and grass/electric also (potentially) has more moves that it can abuse with Triage than Revenankh.

That’s not to say that Galvanize isn’t a good option. A Galvanize 25g could go either special or physical but would only have access to physical priority, and only of one type (and this priority would be weaker than the triage options). My concerns with Galvanize for 25g is that the Electric typing would likely far overshadow the Grass typing, and that if we wanted to use priority, we would have to go physical and face competition from Bulu and Kartana. Despite this, I still think Galvanize 25g could be a good pokemon. I’m in favour of Triage because I think with our stat limitations, our best niche to fill is as a priority based special attacker.

 

[Roland le preaux]

I don’t think No Guard is the answer for CAP25g. We already have a perfectly accurate sleep-inducing move, and solid choices for paralysis in our Electric move options. Attacking grass moves are mostly accurate, and while perfectly-accurate high-powered electric attacks would be cool, I think Triage, Prankster, Galvanize, and Refrigerate offer better options here for versatility and actual function.

Re-posting because this is my first CAP discussion and I didn't properly understand the rules. No flavor discussion here, got it.

I still support No Guard because I think it could profoundly increase our reliability for spreading status while also allowing us to hit a little bit harder and with more reliability, which would just be icing on the cake. I also feel that there is a ton of unexplored design space with No Guard and the various movepool interactions it could have in both regular Pokemon and the CAP meta.

I also wouldn't mind Prankster, which I feel could also turn CAP 25g into a powerful Sleeper or other status inducer with a focus on priority instead of reliability. It would strongly increase specific match-ups, which I feel is appropriate for a specialist that needs to carve out a niche in OU.

Galvanize I think would be fairly underwhelming. No Guard could effectively achieve similar damage increases while also adding utility with boosts to status moves.

Grass Pelt seems situational and very weak, even in the best case scenarios.

Modedit: Removing poll-jumping.

 

[Project_Mars]

One thing I don't think has quite been brought up about Galvanize with CAP25g is the fact that it could actually lead to situations where Overgrow can be viable since various sets could have different switch-in opportunities for Normal utility moves that depends on what type of ability is chosen: Ghost-types if against an Overgrow version or Ground-types if against a Galvanize one. This would help give CAP25g a more interesting niche as a result as well, depending on moves chosen.

 

[GMars]

As an aside from my main argument about Triage, I don't really like Galvanize because it doesn't benefit the Grass typing of 25g in any way.

My concerns with Galvanize for 25g is that the Electric typing would likely far overshadow the Grass typing

I find this to be a very weak argument against Galvanize. Given that a previous starter in Greninja is characterized by Protean throwing out both of its STABs, Decidueye's niches revolve entirely around its unique Ghost move, and that our Electric STAB is already our main differentiation from other Grass-types in the tier, I see no reason why embellishing our secondary typing should be looked down upon.

3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

I believe Galvanize to be the best ability for CAP25g. It opens several avenues to specialize our starter from, allowing us to achieve unique roles for our Grass-type. We can go down the route of special wallbreaking using the high-powered Normal-type attacks available, hitting a different set of targets than Jumbao by virtue of typing while also potentially retaining the ability to offensively pivot. We could also explore hazard removal with a selectable set of counters, an entirely unique niche among all Pokemon. Along with that, we can explore the potential of high-powered Electric priority without introducing the issue of Grass receiving priority as well, allowing us to push our CAP to offensive extremes while maintaining Ground-types' ability to effectively check it through immunity and strong neutral attacks while keeping CAP25g as a great answer to Flying-types, further expanding on its niche. Because of our extensive counter list, we want to look for an ability that either cuts a few checks and counters out or allows us to reach an attractive extreme in our role while maintaining its wide list of solid checks and counters so as to not place a heavy burden on teambuilding against CAP25g. Galvanize achieves this better than Triage.

There's a lot to learn from choosing Galvanize as the ability for CAP25g, and each option we could explore would lead to a unique and viable role in the CAP meta.

 

[Martinique Jason]

Grass Pelt seems situational and very weak, even in the best case scenarios.

Not every mon has to have totally OP ability to be good. Just look at Volcarona. Grass Pelt is pretty good ability, but Gogoat is very weak to fully abuse it. With grassy terrain support, it could take 0,5x damage from eq. If it had Grass Pelt, it could be pretty unpredictable, because even overgrow would be good and it wouldnt be one trick pony.

 

[SunshineFuture]

Imo Triage isn’t very interesting when Revenankh exists. While it wouldn’t be the exact same or anything, by in large the process would look similar. Give healing moves, pick a way to exploit the healing, bulky offense stats. It would probably be fine, but at least to me, Triage is a let down for a celebration CAP.

Prankster shoots 25g in the foot, as Tomohawk is basically the ultimate Prankster user. Unlike Triage, I don’t see how 25g wouldn’t become worse Tomo. I agree with the others on Galvanize tho.

 

[Project_Mars]

Not every mon has to have totally OP ability to be good. Just look at Volcarona. Grass Pelt is pretty good ability, but Gogoat is very weak to fully abuse it. With grassy terrain support, it could take 0,5x damage from eq. If it had Grass Pelt, it could be pretty unpredictable, because even overgrow would be good and it wouldnt be one trick pony.

The concept is the have a great ability and have the Pokemon built around to maximize the ability to its fullest potential. I do not think that can be done with Grass Pelt like it could with several other options mentioned in this thread.

 

[Martinique Jason]

The concept is the have a great ability and have the Pokemon built around to maximize the ability to its fullest potential. I do not think that can be done with Grass Pelt like it could with several other options mentioned in this thread.

What about giving it Grassy/Electric Surge. I havent seen them banned. It would be interesting to see this mon compete with the Tapus.

 

[Dogfish44]

Some more thoughts from the resident mutt;

CAP25w
Magic Bounce has gained some support on the basis of being able to block Taunt, thus supporting non-attacking moves. But I'm concerned that the actual reason that we're seeing Magic Bounce is because it's just a generically good ability, rather than because it's concept suitable. Indeed, looking across the list of Taunt Users we can expect (and it's an inflated list...), the vast majority are either really easy for us to threaten with Super Effective STAB options, or have said options against us. Magic Bounce is a good ability, but I think that given how many arguments in favour seem to veer off the course of the project, that it risks forgetting the concept entirely.

I can't agree with the line of argumentation that Corrosion is inherently bad because of Comatose and Magic Guard Pokémon existing. The latter can be tackled within the movepool through a variety of moves, whilst the former is literally one mon - the idea that a single Pokemon makes another entirely unviable (beyond literally outclassing them) doesn't feel like it's reasonable to me - most Pokemon have mons which Counter them, having to switch does not seem a horrible situation. Carving a strict niche out of our ability is a solid step forward for 25w, and adding in movepool overlap helps our concept more than a number of proposals. Indeed, I like that there is a decent amount of room to explore the direct effect of our ability within the concept, rather than relying on more tenuous reasoning based on what our opponent might end up using.

CAP25g
Triage and Galvanise are broadly aimed at Grass's constant problem: Grass Types be slow. Of the two, Triage is my preferred choice - the option of slow pivoting as Frostybiyt mentioned is really something genuinely interesting. I disagree with the assertion that Triage would end up too similar - both in process and result - to Revenankh. Revenankh, for instance, holds no forms of pivoting, as well as, y'know, being a completely different typing.

However, whilst both tackle the slowness of Grass to varying degrees, that's only on a tiny fraction of the typing's movepool. Speed Boost, beyond it's natural synergies with various movepool aspects, actually tackles the root of the problem rather than edging around it. Indeed, because we will be able to gain actual Speed and as such tap into whatever coverage CAP25g happens to have, it becomes a lot more difficult for Necturna to switch into us and use us as setup bait, which is something that we actively decided in our Checks + Counters stage is a fundamental target for 25g.

Obviously Speed Boost comes with the immediate "But Blaziken" response, and I would argue that response is not warranted. We are in no way obliged to give 25g the same sort of boosting tools that lead to Blaziken becoming overwhelming. Indeed, with part of the concept being to explore what makes a Pokemon 'go too far', Speed Boost gives us an effective Pokemon to analyse on that particular front.

 

[superstrike66]

Since I was just on vacation, I missed most of this discussion. However, I'll voice my opinions on some of the suggested abilities for the fire starter.

and in the end what I came up with was Steelworker. Steel pseudo-stab might be fitting here for a few reasons. Firstly, it maintains our water-type switchins, our main check. We wont be scaring Argho, Gren, or Keldeo at all by picking this up.
Secondly it improves our existing positive matchups against types like Fairy and Rock. This lets us easily beat Clefable for instance without needing a huge offensive stat or worrying about smart ways to break through Unaware (meanwhile Argho's unaware is not disrupted by us)
Third, Steelworker is an unexplored ability with a few very cool moves to work with- a priority move, good physical or special options, and a boosted retaliation move. Check out the list of steel moves to get a better idea of what we would be working with since im not allowed to list them. Even not including trapping options, I think the movepool is colorful enough to warrant one or two steel moves in a set regularly, which is what I'd expect from this sort of concept.
And its got good optics =)

Steelworker: I don't think this is a good ability for this 'mon, Since our STABs are SE against 2 types weak to steel (ice and rock), and many fairies are also weak to our STABs. Also, of the 3 viable fairies that aren't weak to our STABs( Fini, Lele, Clef), fini would end us if we stayed in against it, and Lele could be OHKOed by a strong STAB attack. So, I don't think hitting 2 'mons (if you count Lele) harder than we currently do is worth costing us an ability slot.

Serene grace/Sheer force: Two simple abilities that both work on moves with a 2nd effect. There are plenty of these types of fire moves, but a very limited amount of these types of ground moves, with only Earth Power effecting these abilities. Due to this, I think we should steer away from these abilities, but wouldn't be the end of the world if they were picked, as they're pretty solid abilities.

I'd also mention Tough Claws as a possible ability for our fire starter. There are a good amount of Fire and Ground contact moves that would be boosted by this ability. However, choosing that would make this 'mon strictly a physical attacker who may be outclassed by 'hard x, who would probably have higher stats than us.

 

[Project_Mars]

What about giving it Grassy/Electric Surge. I havent seen them banned. It would be interesting to see this mon compete with the Tapus.

Don't know what we could stand to learn from either of those, and I doubt it. While stats haven't been set we do know they will be more in-line with the stats that most starters will have so either the movepool would need to be phenomenal or it would fall very short of either. Plus how would you even optimize stats/movepool for either in a way the Tapus are not?

Prankster and Galvanize are, imo, two of the better ideas with Galvanize in particular looking like a better option. Sure Prankster CAP25g would likely have some comparisons to Tomo… we can also go a different direction with what moves are picked compared to what Tomo has. Granted, I do agree that it likely may not work as well, but there should still be stuff to learn at least.

 

[Mythlore]

Edit: Also want to mention Merciless. This destroys all of our checks and is a bad idea lmao. Everything we dont hit with STAB we hit with Toxic, so them not being able to switch in and even tank hits while poisoned is a really bad idea.

Figured it was about time to respond to this now that I've thought about the post and the other options more.

For instance defensive Landorus-T will be taking 56% minimum while poisoned if it switches into a 105 Atk (which is low) adamant 120bp fire move.

While this is true, one of the advantages of Merciless and the other crit abilities is that they ignore stat drops. Lets not forget that Landorus-T without intimidate only has 89/90 bulk, so being 2hko'd by a +1 120bp stab neutral hit is not overly surprising.

Also remember this can be used to crit with Z-moves reliably, and no mon is going to take neutral z-moves while poisoned. A neutral, non-STAB 190BP z-move on poisoned Mega Latios (basically the best check in the tier) is 97% minimum.

Of course, this isn't a threat exclusive to Merciless, as Super Luck can also achieve a 100% critical hit chance for a Z-move. While Super Luck would require set up to achieve this, I would argue that poisoning an opponents counter would be a similar amount of set-up. Even then, a 190BP z move would require an attack with a base power of 120 which can be easily withheld from 25f in movepool if this is a concern. This also assumes that 25f is physical which is not dictated by this ability. A special neutral non-stab 180BP does 65 min to 0/0 Mega Latias with 105 spatk. Which while scary, is a one time use and can easily be recovered off by M-Latias.

While I can understand the fear of powerful crit z moves, theres plenty of room for us to remove this risk in later stages. While you quote "neutral non-STAB 190BP z moves" there is nothing inherent in Merciless that would require us to have these as options. There is plenty of room for us to prevent this scenario in future stages.

Also lets say that 25f is doing the poisoning itself. This would require one turn to get a 50% boost in power, which as you pointed out above in this same boost is far worse than the standard of boosting moves. This is also a boost that is lost if your opponent switches out (although it reappears should they switch back in.)

Arghonaut is also happily ohkod by a neutral STAB z-move with defensive investment. And the poison doesnt even need to be provided by 25f, putting it in danger against these pokemon.

Arghonaut is one of the few defensive pokemon that finds itself in a different position than most. Due to it having Unaware, landing a toxic on Arghonaut would provide an equivalence of +1 atk/spatk against it which it would not normally experience. This is both a boon and a bane for 25f design wise. While it gives a cool new avenue for a semi-boost against an unaware mon that we normally wouldnt see, it also gives 25f a dangerous advantage against these pokemon.

Any mon can poison them (and its impossibly easy to run a poisoning status move on a lure) and then they no longer can switch into 25f. Lets protect the small number of mons that actually check this monster. Merciless is way too strong and shits on the entire checklist.

While this is true, there is plenty of room for an opponent to play around being poisoned. While you point out that its easy to land toxic using pokemon that normally wouldn't run it, if you see a team with 25f it becomes far more obvious than it sounds. Having to preserve your counter is nothing new in any metagame, just in this scenario you have to preserve it from being status'd instead of keeping its HP high. There are also various moves that can be used to remove existing status on pokemon that can be used as well.

Merciless allows us to explore a brand new segment of play involving status. This allows us to give 25f a conditional power boost that can be played around by opponents and rewards clever play by the person running 25f. This ability allows room for new team style to be constructed around 25f and allows it to have a different route of counterplay than you would normally see.

 

[Sabbio]

And I'm sorry but Refrigerate seems silly when we could just give CAP 25g access to Ice-type moves.

No good ice-type move gets a higher bp than 90. Refrigerate-boosted, say, Return, gets 102 × 1.2, which is way better. Also gives a lot of flexibilty in later stages, doesn't make it clearly a special or physical mon, fits greatly with his "specialized" role by giving it a clear nice over other grass-types.
Doesn't really sound silly to me.

 

[faithviolet]

3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

Refrigerate helps us beat the Ground-types that our Grass-typing alone is not enough for. Our Grass/Electric type was promoted partly on the basis of helping be an electric type that beats Ground-types. But many of the Grounds in CAP, such as Landorus-T, Gliscor, Zygarde, and Garchomp, are able to fight against us on an even playing field. Refrigerate would allow us to defeat these without spreading our stats too thin. It would also give us some way to fight back against other grass-types. Despite this, a 1.2 factor multiplier is not enough to break our CAP, only to give it options against the ground and flying-types in its way. As Deck Knight has mentioned, the normal-type movepool is quite broad, and can combo with many of our STAB paralysis-inducing moves.

Emergency Exit has already been discussed somewhat. I think dismissing it based on our inability to give good bulk is missing the point. With decent offenses and good speed, we can hit once, take a strong neutral hit that pushes us out to a counter. If we can't take a hit, we could pivot out quickly with our own move. If we can KO, we can either hit something hard on the switch-in or regain health to use the ability again. We essentially have an Escape Button that never runs out, and having the momentum gained from a free switch-in is very valuable.

I think one of the two above is the right ability for CAP 25g. What makes the difference is what strength we expect to have from later stages. If we are worried that with Grass/Electric typing, we'll have a hard time standing up to the threats in the metagame, then EE is certainly not a good choice. But then the extra power of frozen normal moves can raise its standing through great type coverage. But if instead we worry about overpowering the grass starter, then Refrigerate runs the risk of adding to that. But then with the better-adjusted stats and wider movepool that we assume, Emergency Exit can give the CAP a unique role and play dynamics that help it stand out from the crowd of nigh-viable Pokemon.

I must also mention Speed Boost as a good possible choice. Electric-type STAB has some synergies with high-speed, and many grass-type status-inducing moves work much better on a speedy Pokemon. Due to our significantly weaker offensive typing, under reasonable assumptions one needn't worry about becoming as powerful as Blaziken.

 

[Gross Sweep]

CAP25w
Magic Bounce has gained some support on the basis of being able to block Taunt, thus supporting non-attacking moves. But I'm concerned that the actual reason that we're seeing Magic Bounce is because it's just a generically good ability, rather than because it's concept suitable. Indeed, looking across the list of Taunt Users we can expect (and it's an inflated list...), the vast majority are either really easy for us to threaten with Super Effective STAB options, or have said options against us. Magic Bounce is a good ability, but I think that given how many arguments in favour seem to veer off the course of the project, that it risks forgetting the concept entirely.

I can't agree with the line of argumentation that Corrosion is inherently bad because of Comatose and Magic Guard Pokémon existing. The latter can be tackled within the movepool through a variety of moves, whilst the former is literally one mon - the idea that a single Pokemon makes another entirely unviable (beyond literally outclassing them) doesn't feel like it's reasonable to me - most Pokemon have mons which Counter them, having to switch does not seem a horrible situation. Carving a strict niche out of our ability is a solid step forward for 25w, and adding in movepool overlap helps our concept more than a number of proposals. Indeed, I like that there is a decent amount of room to explore the direct effect of our ability within the concept, rather than relying on more tenuous reasoning based on what our opponent might end up using.

Hey nice post! Since you mentioned a bit of stuff from my earlier post figure I ought to explain some stuff that I might have been a bit to vague on, to hopefully make up for any miscommunications. Firstly Magic Bounce is not gaining favor mainly over its ability to stop Taunt. Stopping Hazards and Status are extremely solid draws for this ability competitively, much more so than Taunt. Yes stopping Taunt is a nice bonus of the ability, and helps with the connection aspect, but I don't think anyone really supporting the ability thinks of blocking Taunt as anything close to the main draw. Meaning that even if we only come in and stop taunt from a few mons in the meta where doing alright.

As far as options to qualify the ability with our concept I'll just address a few, Can't get to far into specifics, but I'll do my best to break down a few initial options that come to mind. Firstly being recovery options. If a Pokemon spends a turn healing and then takes damage from something like Toxic, losing more and more every turn, the Recovery moves become useless and your mon faints - this is something Magic Bounce helps avoid. Set up moves also pair strongly with Magic Bounce as you never have to worry about getting crippled by a Toxic, Twave, or Wisp ending your potential sweep early. Hazards also pair well with Magic Bounce since you can bounce back a Hazard and then set your own the next turn, also some forms of hazards stack so it's not like if we bounce a hazard there will never be a need to set our own. Another option that comes to mind is screens, since a Magic Bounce mon bounces back Defog allowing you to Keep up whatever screens you have set and not worry about someone just removing them. Finally as you mentioned earlier stopping Taunt helps you run any status move without fear, not even scared of Encore/Disable along with Taunt. These were just the first few that come to mind, and I'm sure that with a little digging we'll find more, so I'm not to worried about this ability qualifying - the this is a decision everyone has a right to make for themselves and I highly encourage everyone to look into it.

Now as far as Corrosion goes I do have a few things to say. In my original post I blatantly stated this ability would very strongly meet our concept, at no point was that denied. Now when I mentioned Clefable and Pajantom I said I was just starting to note common viable mons that could potentially annoy CAP 25W with corrosion, there are others outside of that like Natural Cure Chansey, Heal Bell Cyclohm, Poison Heal Gliscor, Guts Colossoil, or Even Tapu Fini. Now before you get mistaken don't think I'm assuming that every team has one of these, and thus invalidates the option - I'm just making an observation on what would could potentially be problematic. I will very clearly state this though: I don't believe Corrosion is a great ability, and even if you removed these mons that give it a hard time I still think it would be sub-optimal. I don't struggle to see how the ability works, or even whether or not you'd successfully poison mons in each game (you probably would). I simply don't see a bulky Corrosion mon becoming a force in the current CAP metagame. That is the message I was trying to convey. Also just a quick tidbit, but I don't agree with Corrosion being a versatile option with tons of room to explore, I very strongly believe there are few options that CAP 25W would have if we went with Corrosion, however, I might be missing something on that front and would love to hear a response talking about options we have besides our set revolving around a single move with a few options trying to bring that moves damage potential to the max.

Hope this cleared up the issues about Magic Bounce meeting the concept/becoming popular due mainly to Taunt, and any confusion that might have arisen based on how I critiqued Corrosion since I didn't mean to make it sound like Clefable and Pajantom alone where the reasons I disliked the ability.

 

[Deck Knight]

So I had a thought on 25w.

Contrary.
Now, immediately this draws comparisons to the silly Shuckle defensive use for it, which is I assume one of GF's internal jokes.

Most of the best defensive Contrary moves are Fighting or Ice type, which mesh well with our two STABs. Notably, Water/Bug moves are heavy on opponent debuffs and not user buffs, so the two work together perfectly.

Contrary also strengthens the matchup further against Landorus-T, Mawile, and Gyarados while also turning Kitsunoh's signature move's best breaking quality into a curse.

25w would distinguish itself from Serperior by using Contrary's qualities to boost its defensive or tanking prowess rather than outright sweeping.

 

[Roland le preaux]

No good ice-type move gets a higher bp than 90. Refrigerate-boosted, say, Return, gets 102 × 1.2, which is way better. Also gives a lot of flexibilty in later stages, doesn't make it clearly a special or physical mon, fits greatly with his "specialized" role by giving it a clear nice over other grass-types.
Doesn't really sound silly to me.

No Guard plus the most powerful Ice-type move would accomplish virtually the same damage as Refrigerate + Hyper Voice, except is would also have tons of other utility for the rest of CAP 25g's movepool, from STAB attacks to reliable status-spreading. Refrigerate would literally just be there for a single non-STAB coverage move, making the entire ability useless if you decide not to run Ice-type coverage.

 

[Okamu]

So, since this post is a bit lengthy, I've thrown the two particular starters I'm focused on in their own tabs. Read one, both, or none at all. Up to you! I'd also like to apologize in advance; I had this post like 80% done a few hours ago, and despite saving the draft, it all disappeared. So if it seems like there's some connections missing, I'm sorry. I can't remember exactly everything I wrote. But anyways... yeah. Critique as you will. (I'm sure there will be quite a bit of it for this particular post tbh.)

25g

I believe Galvanize to be the best ability for CAP25g. It opens several avenues to specialize our starter from, allowing us to achieve unique roles for our Grass-type. We can go down the route of special wallbreaking using the high-powered Normal-type attacks available, hitting a different set of targets than Jumbao by virtue of typing while also potentially retaining the ability to offensively pivot. We could also explore hazard removal with a selectable set of counters, an entirely unique niche among all Pokemon. Along with that, we can explore the potential of high-powered Electric priority without introducing the issue of Grass receiving priority as well, allowing us to push our CAP to offensive extremes while maintaining Ground-types' ability to effectively check it through immunity and strong neutral attacks while keeping CAP25g as a great answer to Flying-types, further expanding on its niche.

So, I'd like to talk about some of my gripes with Galvanize, and I'd like to use this post as an example of some of the lines of thinking that I just don't really get.

Starting at the beginning and going in order, we can begin with the idea of Galvanize as a special wall breaker. To begin, let's look at the options for those 'powerful Normal type attacks' by analyzing some current -ate users. Mega Gardevoir, Sylveon, and Special Mega Altaria's sets make the trend pretty clear for what move is being referenced here. It's not particularly interesting. Unfortunately, the other options here aren't exactly enticing. Most special Normal moves are lackluster in power, or have an exceedingly weird quirk such as being based on HP percentage or PP. The other most reliable options leave us with a Galvanize version of Aerilate Noivern, a recharge turn, or a chance at a variety of statuses for a bit less power. If the point behind Galvanize is to revolutionize the Normal movepool to give 25g a boost in its power output, it fails miserably on the special side outside of one already very expected move. Besides, although you can argue a different set of targets is significantly different from Jumbao, essentially what you've done is reduce 25g to being specialized solely based on its STAB typing combo. Personally, I find that a waste of this concept. If you want a power boost, there are other abilities that take different approaches. No Guard, for example, reduces the low accuracy of certain high-powered moves both STAB and not, which I would argue much more logically facilitates a special wallbreaker role than Galvanize while staying truer to the concept.

Next up is Hazard Removal with... 'selectable counters.' I honestly am confused about what exactly this is trying to say. To me it seems like a mon that can pick certain moves to change its counter list, like a Utility anti-Counter. If that's not right, oh well, but it's what I'm currently getting from that phrasing. This is admittedly interesting, as the choice between Overgrow and Galvanize changes which Pokémon can come In to block a certain hazard removal move. However, CAP is a meta inundated with a myriad amount of hazard removals already. Just look at the Role Compendium if you don't believe me. And while currently the only viable Grass-typed remover is Defog Kartana, 25g will likely still have to lean quite a bit into this 'Utility anti-Counter' role to be more than a niche pick based on typing. This is where I think Galvanize begins to break down. If we want to be able to change our moves freely to hit different potential checks and counters, why would we want an ability that doesn't help with coverage? Yes, Galvanize can provide more powerful STAB options, but if we're looking for coverage to change up, Galvanize just doesn't do much. I'll come back to this idea later as it's my main issue with the ability as a whole, so for now on to the next bit.

Here we get to the main idea I've seen frequent talk about. The idea of Galvanized priority. To get straight to the point, Normal typing has three priority moves, one of which directly outclasses another; realistically this leaves us with two moves - one with spammable power and one non-spammable flinches. I honestly don't have much to say about this. If you are of the opinion that those two moves are worth forking an entire ability slot over for, then fine. But what I will say is that if the goal of this path is to actually explore priority options on 25g, Triage may be worth your time to consider. "But if we give it Triage we won't get Electric priority only! There will be Grass stuff too!" No. No. Stop right there. That is literally just an assumption. It's not an unfounded one, sure, but if enough people do not want Grass priority on a Triage mon, they could voice that opinion, do a movepool without Triage-boosted Grass moves, and try to vote it through. Inherently assuming anything is implied is a kind of mental poll jump, and I would suggest not falling into that habit, no matter how likely the end result may seem. Need I mention how Sand Rush Jumbao at one point seemed like a foregone conclusion? If you really want to explore priority damage options, Triage and Galvanize sit at roughly the same ground in my eyes. Triage has a few more options it could fall back on, but both abilities center on a few moves in particular when it comes to priority. Honestly, I don't care for either of them in this regard.

Anyways, with that part about wrapped up, let's get back to what I said I'd come back to: how much Galvanize actually does as an ability. Because the answer is really not that much. Yes, all of the Normal movepool that we want to give 25g can now be Electric typed. However, outside of one particular priority move, the majority of these moves are either unviable and gimmicky, or have already been used by another of the many -ate users. From a broader point of view, all Galvanize will likely do for 25g is strengthen its Electric STAB and give it a priority move. The latter can be accomplished by another suggested ability in this thread and the former could be accomplished by any of the many power-boosting moves in the game, though the one with the most parallels in this particular case might be Adaptability. In general, in almost every case, I don't see a way in which Galvanize as an ability produces move-ability interactions that are unique and niche-defining. And the one example where that interaction is potentially interesting, that one example that Galvanize supporters have made their highest priority (I'm sorry please don't hurt me.), for me, just isn't enough to spend the only ability slot we have on; even more so when we could explore a very similar path with another suggested ability, while also keeping some more options open.

So what ability do I support for 25g? Honestly, none of them have me too enthralled, but I'd be inclined to go with a more status-oriented No Guard variant. Being potentially able to spread a powerful status behind substitutes, spread status while dishing out huge STAB damage, all while also offering the option for powerful coverage; to me, that's sounds like some quality movepool-ability interaction.

25w

Ah, the defensive Water/Bug mon. I'm not entirely sure exactly what my favorite suggestion is right now, but I'd just like to throw out one only semi-serious ability suggestions to get attention back on 'What do we want this starter to do when it's in,' instead of 'How do we tackle our list of checks and counters that we drafted up.' I think it will be a healthy exercise. Additionally, I'll get around to some abilities that I'm fond of and ones that I'm not towards the end. But back to the half-hearted suggestions. (If some of these have been suggested already for 25w, I'm sorry. There have been so many suggestions that I literally cannot keep them straight anymore.)

Infiltrator. Looking at our list of what we want to pressure, there's a considerable amount of mons that tend to Substitute up. Hawlucha, Necturna, Zygarde, and Revenankh among them. Infiltrator would allow 25w to ignore this and inflict status and lower attacking stats using STAB Water and Bug moves respectively. This allows 25w to take a proactive role in dismantling mons that would like to set up behind a sub, provided you don't let them get too much of a head start. Now, where does that head start break away from our defensive capabilities? That's something to think about.

Anyways, that was just to make you think and ponder. On to the abilities that I just don't get, starting with the big one: Poison Heal. I have to be honest, when your claim to synergy is the same idea behind Leech Seed or Leftovers stall, you won't be getting my interest any time soon. As far as I can tell, this was suggested primarily as a way to try and recover off Stealth Rock or hazard damage. Yet, there are other ways this could be achieved, primarily though the movepool stage. There are plenty of recovery moves, both damaging and not, that could give 25w a boost in its defensive capabilities. This is essentially my same issue with the Magic twins, in that while they do achieve a useful effect, they tend to distract from the concept by dedicating the ability to achieving some other task rather than coordination with the movepool. I mean, seriously. 'Protection move category?' Come on now.

As for what I really am looking forward to with 25w, I think there's a lot of potential in stat-debuffs for this typing, considering the STAB potential alone for reducing attacking or defensive stats. Heck, there are even multiple ways to lower speed! The question then becomes what abilities best take advantage of this? Well, the two that I'm particularly fond of are Contrary and Prankster. As annoying as we learned it is with Tomo, Prankster with a recovery move could help us more easily deal with that SR weakness. That weakness combined with the fact that Water/Bug can't lose its weaknesses by the side effect of recovering means that this Prankster recovery would be a fair bit more tame (as long as we don't go crazy with stats). This would also allow us to better overcome the barrier of needing to be fast to recover, while also needing the stats to tank hits and do a fair bit of damage. Additionally, some type of entry hazard could also contribute well to the idea of general 'stat debuffing,' as could some potential recovery move, both of which would get boosted by Prankster. Contrary on the other hand allows us to not only debuff our opponents, but also buff ourselves, creating an interesting niche of 'two-way set-up tank.' Deck already covered this ability really well, so I'd direct you to check out his last post if you haven't already for further ideas on what Contrary can do.

 

[Gross Sweep]

I am pumped to be writing about 25F; I feel there are a lot of great options for this one. I sort overdid it for Water writing about 2700 words. This time around I’m going to cut out some abilities I feel are weak, or include them and be very blunt about my displeasure for whatever reason.

Magnet Pull – Saw this one earlier and I agree with a lot of people that it’s too strong. Glad to see this discussion has died out a bit, and really hope it doesn’t even get slated.

Serene Grace – I feel like this is a solid ability that would definitely get the job done as far as ability – move interactions go, it would be really hard not to with this one to be honest. My real objection is that I feel there are a lot of better options floating around currently that make this one appeal to me less and less. Similarly to water this one will be higher on my ballot, but it’s just not a top option for me.

Simple – This is an interesting option since we could have a lot of creativity ending with a truly enjoyable Pokemon, but we could also easily get carried away and make this Pokemon terrifyingly strong. Mentioned by Birkal on Discord I think a general good rule of thumb is any set up moves our CAP 25F gets can only give +1 boosts. I’d also TAC on the rule that no move that boosts speed + another stat would be acceptable. I feel like this greatly limits a simple 25F, but I believe it’s fair in the name of balance. If you like Simple and are ok with those limitations I say more power to you, good vote, but if you’re envisioning a true set up monster getting +4 or +2 in speed and some offense in a single turn you’ll probably end up disappointed from what I can tell. Unless we do something like give it a horrible Attack/Special Attack stat of course. I guess at the end of the day I just see us nerfing the ability to hard to make it balanced that it ends up being just a tad too weak to be a true force – that’s just an assumption of course and I would LOVE to be proved wrong if Simple does end up winning.

Mold Breaker - I think this is an interesting one allowing our Ground stab moves to hit levitate users, Fire moves hit Tran, can set up without worrying about Unaware users, and has the potential to freely set hazards. This one is similar to Serene Grace for me though. It would very clearly meet our standards, I just don’t get excited by it. If you’re voting for this I have no issues with you as this is a solid choice, just isn’t for me based on a preferences to other valid options. See that pattern though, Fire with several great options, it’s going to be tough to choose.

Merciless – Didn’t like this one at first, but discord discussion has changed my mind. I now like this option, and the only worry is that it could be a tad too strong. Makes a strong move/ability connection unless CAP 25F ends up relying on other mons to do things like set Tspikes or poison foes, which could happen so be mindful. Biggest drawback though is Cbreavan won’t promise me broken sets for this ability, but I suppose that isn’t a real reason to not vote for this one. Overall I feel this is a strong contender.

Super Luck/ Sniper – I don’t care which one of these people root for, but they need to come together and pick a unified idea going forward. Otherwise they will hurt each other on the polls and lead to neither side being happy. Honestly think it’s a worse Merciless though, so I don’t care, you all just need to come together on one crit focused option.

Steelworker - Interesting idea I have some support for. I like the move options this would provide, though triple stall is honestly an amazing set up, so I understand people potentially having fears about this one. I like a lot of what PIP mentioned in his post, but I am concerned about hitting M-Lati@s to hard. I might end up staying away since triple stab is pretty broken in my eyes, but I see this as a very cool option that is anything but boring ,which I hear as a common concern for 25F. I was interested in the aspect of breaking past Clefable much more easily, but at a certain point I don’t like that so few Pokemon can say they resist our triple stab. A mon that comes to mind is Pelipper who is very archetype specific. I’m sure others exist it’s just a bit late and I don’t want to scroll through the builder hunting for examples. Honestly when I started this paragraph I liked this ability a lot more than I do now, as I really sit down and think about it. I’m sure this paragraph is very jumbled, but I’ll end it with this: I have a fear of this being too strong, so I probably won’t vote Steelworker extremely high, but won’t have hard feelings if people do end up supporting it.

Technician – This one is my favorite, but I am getting tired so I’ll keep this shorter and try not to drone. Several stab options make this work, and give you some pretty cool and powerful options. Does push us a bit towards physical just looking at our stab move pool, so that is something to consider. I would definitely call this a boring choice, maybe even a safe choice if you just want to vote for something that will turn out well. I think we can make the most out of this ability and make a really solid mon that fits extremely well with the concept, which is a pro. Hard to say more without getting into examples thought, so I’ll end this by urging others to look up Fire/Ground moves with less than 60 BP and just start brainstorming ideas – I don’t think you’ll be disappointed.

This was a fun post to write at first, but in the middle I got caught up with discord people and this ended up taking a long time and I got tired for the last few, so I might go back and fix up Steelworker and Merciless sections. Also am keeping this just over 1000 words which is much better than last time. I’ll be back later with a 25G post. (Also no grammar check, but I’ll probably fix major issues later).

 

[Sivanandi]

Raikoben I like one of those, but I don't think bulletproof is good. I'm new to CAP, so besides what you've already mentioned, I can't think of anything notable that it blocks. a lot of those attacks that bulletproof stops are already resisted by 25w. Soundproof is fine, just keep in mind that it will make the healing of status ailments by teammates more difficult, since it blocks one of the two moves that do so.
I also want to chip in on the 25f argument about Simple. It seems like it might be broken with almost any good setup move, but in reality, we already have Pokemon that are setup sweepers (with better stats than starters, too) that aren't broken. I don't think Simple would be broken at all, especially since I understand that Haze is an especially relevant issue here in CAP. However, it could have devastating potential, even with the burden of starter stats. On the whole, I support Simple for 25f because I think it's good but not too good, and I kind of want to see it used by a Pokemon that isn't Bibarel or Numel.
The Haze stuff I said also applies to Speed Boost on 25g. I have seen some discussion on the electric move that has very good synergy with the ability, but haze could completely shut that down, as well.
Speaking of 25g I just want to put some support behind Galvanize. There are lots of normal type moves that could take advantage of no longer being normal type. There's that one priority move (that everyone's already implied) but there are other options too. Hazard removal, chip damage, status punishing (I'm particularly fond of this one), you name it. Most of this has been said already, though.
Open to critiques

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Random thoughts on random abilities:

CAPg:

No Guard: I like the thought behind it, as it enables us to run some really interesting status possibilities that otherwise would not be consistent/possible in most of the CAP metagame. It also works well with the direct interaction deparment, as there are plently of innaccurate moves from both typings that could be very unique. I think that if done well, this could be really well executed. However, I not completely on board because of the potential of what it could become: just another super strong STAB user like Tapu Bulu and Tapu Koko from each of our types respectively. No Guard would pretty much be a free seat to infiltrate into the massively high powered but inaccurate moves. This is a route that we could still go, and I feel we would lose the heart of the concept with this. That is why I'm still not super supportive of it.

Speed Boost: I don't have any particularly strong feelings about this ability, but I can see it working. It takes a more direct approach to solving the issue of being too slow by boosting its speed every turn, which will absolutely fix the problem. It does also greatly check Necturna, which is something it does better than other options presented than Infiltrator. My biggest issue with this is that even with some caution, this could still end up too dangerous of a mon. Even if we don't give it boosting moves like Blaziken, literally the only reason why every other Speed Boost user is bad is because thier stats are almost single-mindedly focused on the Speed stat, which is not great for competitive viability. Since we are building a competent mon with actual competent stats, especially considering some of the stuff we want to be able to check, we need to exert massive caution if this ability wins. Also consider that it's not hit supereffectively by any major priority bar Ice Shard as well.

Refrigerate: I do not like this option at all. It completely messes with our checks and counters threatlist destroying a lot of the Grass and Dragon types that would be reliable stops to the mon. And while I understand that the list is flexible and can be adapted, I think that large of a shift would be very problematic for the process going forward. I'm just no a fan of this for balance purposes.

Grassy/Electric Surge: Tapu Bulu and Tapu Koko are the exact reasons why we don't want to do this, because that means are niche has already be fulfilled by something in the metagame. Also considering their higher BST, they will also likely beat us in certain areas, meaning that the teamslot will be even more competed for. It would be a massive uphill battle to actually reach viability, so I don't think this is something that should be explored when we already have two great Pokemon who can already fulfill that proposed niche.

I personally still uphold my thoughts about Galvanize and Regenerator being the best picks for the ability.

CAPf:

Merciless: While the flavornaught inside me is rolling in his grave, I gotta admit this is a really interesting offensive ability, and one I'm actually super interested in. Considering our great mix of neutral coverage and ability to Poison almost anything, being able to utilize the possibility of spreading Poison to help break down bulkier mons would create such an interesting niche, as it even works against Magic Guard. It also allows us to better break past stuff like Calm Mind users if we are special, as we don't have to worry about the stat boosts. I really like what an interesting playstyle this mon brings to the table, and although its at least a two-turn process to fully abuse it, I think it could still be a solid mon with the right stat placment. I support this.

Technician: Its a quite straight forward solution by increasing the power of lowered power attacking moves, bringing out some interesting effects that are usually not seen on the battlefield. It would massively have to compete with other possible coverage, which I see is the biggest flaw with this ability. It is also largely locked to the physical side, which means we don't have as much room to explore possible interactions. I like it, but am hesitant on supporting it.

All I wanna post about for now. Probably will post more later

 

[Thundergreek]

2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?
I think one option being explore exclusively for 25f that could be of great utility to 25w is Mold Breaker. The ability to not have to worry about other magic bounce users lets it abuse status, but this could also work similar to Corrosion.

 

[Warren685]

2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?
I think one option being explore exclusively for 25f that could be of great utility to 25w is Mold Breaker. The ability to not have to worry about other magic bounce users lets it abuse status, but this could also work similar to Corrosion.

Mold breaker on 25w would find very little use since the only relevant magic bounce user in CAP is Colossoil, people are suggesting mold breaker on 25f since it could hit levitate mons and unaware mons. 25w can't do that since it's not going offensive like 25f.

 

[Thundergreek]

Mold breaker on 25w would find very little use since the only relevant magic bounce user in CAP is Colossoil, people are suggesting mold breaker on 25f since it could hit levitate mons and unaware mons. 25w can't do that since it's not going offensive like 25f.

There's also the chance to secondary effect Cyclohm, use water stab against Gastrodon, Plasmanta & Mollux, paralyze Cawmadore, Voodoom, Marowak-A & Kitsunoh.

 

[xurkitrium-z]

I'm surprised I've seen very little discussion for Triage for 25w. It gives 25w reliable recovery, vastly improving its ability to Toxic stall, as well as giving it improved offensive presence in conjunction with health-stealing moves (the most notable of which we'd want to give 25w I won't mention, but you can probably guess). It also improves 25w's matchups against pokemon like Mega Gyarados and Colossoil, which 25w is supposed to be able to switch in on easily but is heavily hampered by its Stealth Rocks weakness, leaving it highly susceptible to getting 2HKO'd by a strong neutral hit. Triage lets 25w come in and not have to worry about that because of its access to priority healing and potential priority offense.

While I very much think that Poison Heal accomplishes this goal of mitigating the Stealth Rocks weakness of a defensive pokemon more consistently, Triage does a better job at fulfilling our concept by enabling us to maximize the ability's potential with a movepool of recovery that is made far better with +3 priority, whereas Poison Heal's potential for maximization is far more limited.