CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 2 (Secondary Type)

[Dane]

Yeah, 600 BST isn't really necessary.

90/90/70/120/110/50 - If this ultimately becomes a Sunflora evolution, this spread (530 BST) could be enough. We could even take some from the defenses and put it in Speed if we wanted to, but we don't need another 600 BST Pokemon.

Honestly, if thing thing wants to be a usable subseeder, it needs at least 100 base HP to create 101 subs. And if it wants to be able to sweep at all, it needs at least 60 speed to keep up with Swampert, Tyranitar, and all the other base 60 speed killers.

I don't like Sunflora evo idea. I'm generally against "new evo" instead of "new Pokemon" this early on, but I admit I did think of Carnivine after I logged off last night. If anyone was curious as to the thought trail:

"Vines, fiery vines... tentacles, Cthulu, Malboro... Fiery Malboro. Excellent. Wait... FREAKING CARNIVINE!"

In case anyone was wondering wtf a Malboro is:

More images and references

 

[Aldaron]

Heh, I like the Marlboro concept, but nothing screams "fanboy" than basing something off of a popular video game series, lol.

However, the Marlboro itself could have had its basis in the Mandrake plant, a poisonous plant historically related with witchcraft and demons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrake_(plant)

That is the description of the plant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandragora_(demon)

That is the description of a demon based off of the plant. Demons, the Devi l etc. scream Fire at me, so this is very appropriate.

I would also like a little feedback on the idea of making its BST 540 to parallel Kingdra's (though I have absolutely 0 intention of mirroring its stats).

I also agree that it needs at least 100 Base HP and preferably at least 70 base Speed.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

I just added 15 points to each of Sunflora's base stats to create that spread. I used that as an example to show how we don't need a 600 BST.

Besides, I'm not THAT into evolutions, either--except for Farfetch'd. :)

EDIT: Spread-wise, I'd rather go for

100/75/79/115/94/82

to make 101 Subs and mess with Gyarados and Milotic. (And the 545 BST makes it close to Aldaron's idea.)

 

[Time Mage]

Honestly, if thing thing wants to be a usable subseeder, it needs at least 100 base HP to create 101 subs.

On the contrary: It needs ridiculously low HP, so that each turn it regenerates a lot of HP via Leech Seed and Leftovers. A 40 base HP pokémon, with 31 IVs and 12 HP EVs gets 224 HP, an exact multiple of 16 for optimal Leftovers recovery, as well as only needing an opponent with 336 HP to get back 25% HP each turn, thus not loosing any HP while subseeding. Of course, that low HP should be accompanied by good defenses (100+ on each side) to compensate for it and not being too fragile.

And if it wants to be able to sweep at all, it needs at least 60 speed to keep up with Swampert, Tyranitar, and all the other base 60 speed killers.

And for a low HP-High defenses subseeder, a high speed is needed, of course. 100+ speed will ensure it to outspeed enough pokémon to be a worthwile subseeder.


Yes, we could take the Tank subseeder route... But I think that side is covered well enough with Celebi, Tangrowth and Venusaur.

 

[Aldaron]

I disagree completely with giving it a low HP. I don't want to base its stats for one specific strategy...

100 gives it optimal subs + general high HP. 40 gives it optimal subseeding "i guess" but craps it over in the defensive department. 40 base with 100 in each category? Ew. Even Spiritomb has 50 base HP with 108 in each defensive stat, and even without any weaknesses that is generally simply only "ok" at being a defensive Pokemon.

 

[Dane]

Like I posted in the previous thread, but now being revised because I don't feel like looking it up:

HP - 100
Atk - 90
Def - 95
SpAtk - 100
SpDef - 95
Speed - 60

BST Total - 540

This looks similar to Kingdra, taking 25 from speed and putting it into hp, and 5 from attack into special attack, but honestly it was derived to be an inverted Swampert.

The 100HP yields 101 subs for subseeding.
The 60Speed allows it to keep up with Swampert, Tyranitar, etc. This also allows it to outspeed at least Jolteon and Aerodactyl (forget who's faster that doesn't also have chlorophyl) after Sunny Day chlorophyl.
The defenses allow it to not buckle over like most other fire Pokemon.
The attack allows it to still hit well offensively, but aiming focus towards special attack (this can easily be swapped, just feel it needs more focus than Kingdra).

On the contrary: It needs ridiculously low HP, so that each turn it regenerates a lot of HP via Leech Seed and Leftovers. A 40 base HP pokémon, with 31 IVs and 12 HP EVs gets 224 HP, an exact multiple of 16 for optimal Leftovers recovery, as well as only needing an opponent with 336 HP to get back 25% HP each turn, thus not loosing any HP while subseeding. Of course, that low HP should be accompanied by good defenses (100+ on each side) to compensate for it and not being too fragile.

Was going to argue this, but what I was about to say you followed up with:

And for a low HP-High defenses subseeder, a high speed is needed, of course. 100+ speed will ensure it to outspeed enough pokémon to be a worthwile subseeder.

This would also work. If HP is low, it HAS to have 100+ speed, or it'll suck.

Yes, we could take the Tank subseeder route... But I think that side is covered well enough with Celebi, Tangrowth and Venusaur.

Point taken. Here's another alternate spread:

HP - 50
Atk - 90
Def - 92
SpAtk - 110
SpDef - 92
Speed - 106

BST Total - 540

 

[Aldaron]

I like Dane's set quite a bit, except that I would prefer if Atk were sacrificed a bit more for both physical and special defense. Perhaps going as far down as 70 and making both Def and SpD 105.

This is predominantly because I figure Atk is bit unnecessary for this Pokemon, and the "demon" nature it "could" be possessing is giving me special bias.

 

[Darth Meanie]

Fire/Grass, and all you are bandwagonning, this was my Idea first. I'm on no bandwagon.

Edit: Hmmm... It turns out it was mentioned before I mentioned it. Oh well, It was my idea too.

Dane, I came up with a set Idea almost exactly the same as yours, but about this

HP: 110
Attack: 65
Def: 85
SpA: 115
SpD: 95
Speed: 65

535: but I think your's is a little more balanced.

The type implies a sunny day pokemon, probably with leaf guard/chlloryphyll
I can see this guy using his good defenses and typing to do several jobs.

Sub-Seed: Substitute, Leech Seed, Ingrain/Grass Knot/Flamethrower/Earth Power (2 of 4)
Double Status Sub-Seed: Leech Seed, Substitute, Will o Wisp, Sleep Powder
Double Status attacker: Will o Wisp, Sleep Powder, Grass Knot, Flamethrower
Sunny Day Abuser: Sunny Day, Synthesis, Solarbeam, Flamethrower (Oh God)
Special Tank: Grass Knot, Flamethrower, Earth Power, Hidden Power Ice

I think he should be pretty balanced though. Most people will opt for the sub-seed and sunny day sets on this guy, and the sunny day set would be countered by heatran, the sub-seeding set by Celebi or most dragons. If this guy could set-up sweep too, he'd be unstoppable.

Moves I dont think this guy should have: Overheat, Spore (Oh GOD), Ice Beam, T-Bolt, Stat-Boosters besides Swords Dance, Baton Pass, U-turn,

And I'm getting way ahead of this project. Just got carried away, and wanted to share my ideas.

 

[Time Mage]

Well, if we are posting spreads, I could also post the one I was thinking on:

HP - 40
Atk - 55
Def - 115
SpAtk - 95
SpDef - 115
Speed - 105

Total: 525

The defense tier for both defenses is the same as Scizor and Kingdra (on the phisical side), so don't take this lightly, it can take hits well. As I said, low HP for optimal annoyance when subseeding, while having a good 105 speed to outspeed all 100 speed pokes plus Garchomp. 95 SA to attack decently with its two stab moves, and there you have, an awesome subseeder that can sweep and is NOT, by any means, as frail as you may think.

 

[Cooper]

Okay, I guess I'll take my second pick and go with Fire/Grass. Hopefully next time around we can go with an awesome Electric type, but not today....

As for design, I'll again ask WHY THE HELL A PANDA REPRESENTS EITHER A GRASS OR FIRE TYPE. That's a horrible idea and would never work. That said, I'm currently imagining a red porcupine/hedgehog with vines sticking out of it's back. I'll design it later when the art comes out. I just don't like the idea of something so horrendously obvious when it comes to design (a chili pepper? come on now).

 

[Dane]

Well, if we are posting spreads, I could also post the one I was thinking on:

HP - 40
Atk - 55
Def - 115
SpAtk - 95
SpDef - 115
Speed - 105

Total: 525

The defense tier is the same as Scizor and Kingdra, so don't take this lightly, it can take hits well. As I said, low HP for optimal annoyance when subseeding, while having a good 105 speed to outspeed all 100 speed pokes plus Garchomp. 95 SA to attack decently with its two stab moves, and there you have, an awesome subseeder that can sweep and is NOT, by any means, as frail as you may think.

This works well too. If it ends up speedy, it HAS to have at least 101 Speed. I believe that's enough to give it 300 speed if you max it's EVs. Then, by giving it a +speed nature, it would be enough to outspeed base 115 (like Starmie) that don't have a +speed nature.

 

[Darth Meanie]

I like your spread time mage, but I personally would like it to have a tad bit more attack, for the occasional nutcase who wants to use power whip or something on him. Also, I prefer when defenses are a little lopsided one way or the other, equal Def, SpD just seems lazy. It looks nice though.

 

[superguh007]

My vote also goes for Grass, because it's awesome typing with several really cool possibilities concept-wise.

I really like the dimetrodon idea, but someone on deviantART came up with this (a jack-o-lantern), which makes even more sense for the typing in my opinion. That design doesn't really fit if we want a bulky grass/fire, but if we do go with a sweeper it would be pretty sweet. Also the jack-o-lantern idea could work with bulky if the design is just a huge, imposing jack-o-lantern without legs but maybe with expansive vines (ingrain anyone?).

 

[Darth Meanie]

hmm, the design you posted looks awfully like a digimon, put a pokemony sprite could do the job. He'd fit better with time mages' description, and probably be hurting for solar power and high attack with that look, but wouldn't fit thematically. Interesting idea of a flare-blitz, wood hammer sweeper came to mind, like time mages' attack and Sp Attack reversed.

This could be a really interesting HP experiment, lots of drain and recover
You'd have to watch over him angelically though, attacking Blissey with that HP would be suicide.

HP: 40
Attack: 100
Def:110
SpA: 80
SpD: 110
Spe:105
BST: 545

(Yes I realize this is a shameless fusion of my idea with Time mage's design)

Solar Power/Hustle @ leftovers/life orb
Substitute, Leech Seed, Flare Blitz, Wood Hammer
Could be scary, and interesting to experiment with HP.

I'm actually getting attached to this idea. Bipedal burning tree, wood hammer, flare blitz, a Close Combat here, Sub-seeder there, maybe a double-status set. A pokemon like this would be FUN to play. Throw in a solarbeam/flareblitz/sunnyday/synthesis set and you've got an unpredictable monster.

 

[tgva8889]

Fire/Electric, though at this point it doesn't matter.

 

[futuresuperstar]

My Base Spread:
55 HP / 70 Attack / 95 Defense / 105 Sp.Atk / 115 Sp.Def / 105 Speed
Total BST = 545

The solid defenses make up for the lower HP, yet the lower HP (as Time Mage has said) gives Leech Seed a ton of health-absorbing options. I wanted to give this thing enough speed to out-speed Garchomp, as well as a little bit of a kick in its special attack. The defenses are about as good as Time Mage's (not as good on physical side, better on special side). Check out an EV Spread here.

With a Timid Nature and 232 EVs, it can out-speed Garchomp and sit at 334 Speed. That leaves enough EVs to maximize a defense. Meanwhile, it would only need 16 EVs in HP to reach 224 HP, that nice little Leftovers magic number to make getting your substitutes back easy-peasy. That leaves, let's see ... 260 EVs to use at your liking. You can buff a defense, most likely special defense to bother the special attacks that can't hit super-effective on him. You can buff your special attack with fire / grass. Substitute / Leech Seed / Flamethrower / Support is what I would probably do. Flamethrower covers essentially everything Leech Seed can't hit. The only bane of this set would be Clefable.

I'd probably buff the Sp.Def to be able to switch in on bulky waters. This thing NEEDS a better special defense to be able to do what it really can do well, and that's switch in on a lot of bulky special attackers that will simply roll over and die to Leech Seed.

 

[Toothache]

Here's what I'd rather see - a Fire/Ghost type. Something more akin to a true will-o-the wisp. (and no I'm not forgetting Revenankh, I know ghost has been done). Moving away from the burning bush concept, and looking over just that wikipedia article shows there's a lot that can be done with such a combination.

Suggestion for base stats:

HP: 65
Att: 80
Def: 80
SpAtt: 105
SpDef: 80
Speed: 130

Total: 540

A naturally fast fire type, with access to WoW (obvious), Taunt or other status moves would be quite dangerous. Obviously he won't be taking hits any time soon, but with a fast speed he's sure to cause some problems, and decent SpAtt would be useful too for some sweeping potential in Nasty Plot. Obvious choices for trait would be Levitate too, perhaps Flash Fire

 

[Dane]

My Base Spread:
55 HP / 70 Attack / 100 Defense / 110 Sp.Atk / 105 Sp.Def / 105 Speed
Total BST = 545

The solid defenses make up for the lower HP, yet the lower HP (as Time Mage has said) gives Leech Seed a ton of health-absorbing options. I wanted to give this thing enough speed to out-speed Garchomp, as well as a little bit of a kick in its special attack. The defenses are about as good as Time Mage's. Check out an EV Spread here.

With a Timid Nature and 232 EVs, it can out-speed Garchomp and sit at 334 Speed. That leaves enough EVs to maximize a defense. Meanwhile, it would only need 16 EVs in HP to reach 224 HP, that nice little Leftovers magic number to make getting your substitutes back easy-peasy. That leaves, let's see ... 260 EVs to use at your liking. You can buff a defense, most likely special defense to bother the special attacks that can't hit super-effective on him. You can buff your special attack with fire / grass. Substitute / Leech Seed / Flamethrower / Support is what I would probably do. Flamethrower covers essentially everything Leech Seed can't hit. The only bane of this set would be Clefable.

I'd probably buff the Sp.Def to be able to switch in on bulky waters.

Not only that, but with a +speed nature and 216 EVs it outspeeds all 115 Base Pokemon with max speed EVs that don't have a +speed nature themselves. For HP, I'd say take it to 20 EVs, to reach 225hp. This way you can Sub down to 1hp if need be.

 

[futuresuperstar]

Speaking of which, (sorry for the double-post), this thing should get Thunder Wave. Call me crazy, I know it's not electric, but we need more uses of Thunder Wave in he metagame, and Celebi (a fellow grass-type), can learn it.

 

[futuresuperstar]

Nice insight, Dane, and very true. 20 EVs in HP would be necessary, can't believe I overlooked that.

As you can see, I adjusted my spread to be able to take on bulky waters better.

 

[Blu]

a Sunflora evo would be interesting, so Grass gets my vote

 

[Darth Meanie]

I feel completely overlooked. :(

two different designs, and i'm skipped??
a comment would be nice

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

In the evo poll, I believe there should be an option to change the evo's type to Grass/Fire. I'd definitely vote for a Sunflora evo in that case.

That could be an option but I personally don't like changing the man/secondary typing around just for the sake of traditions. Maybe if enough people complain enough about it I might reconsider.

 

[Darth Meanie]

Frosslass would disagree with your tradition claims, but I hate the evo idea. It really limits moves and possiblities. What if we decide we don't want it to have say energy ball, but the pre-evo has it?

 

[Aldaron]

Out of the potential spreads so far, futuresuperstar's spread looks the most appealing to me. However, I would like to emphasize more of a bulky factor, so perhaps we could shift 10 of those Special Attack to Defense?

Also, before we necessarily choose the spreads, I'd like to come to a general agreement on the total. 540 seems the most logical to me as a Kingdra-parallel. Any other ideas?