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CAP 4 CAP 4 - Ability Discussion
- Thread starter Sunday
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Im talking about most of the current designs.
I'm also against giving Encore a buff through Persistant. 4-8 turns is plenty as it is, in fact... the buff would probably be useless as no one will dare stay in for 7-11 turns to let Encore wear off.
The field effects and screens though should definately be included.
I don't want the same thing to happen to Persitant that happened to Snare Trap back when it was first thought of, which is that it wasn't explained enough and people were worried that it would be too broken if they voted for it.
So I'm eliminating that problem here and now and initiating a little pseudo-vote on what the community would want out of Persistant so that we have an already established ability when the REAL ability poll comes out.
1. What moves should it affect out of the following list:
Rain Dance
Sunny Day
Hail
Sandstorm
Light Screen
Reflect
Safeguard
Mist
Gravity
Trick Room
Tailwind
Encore
Disable
Heal Block
2. How many extra turns should it give? +2, +3, or +4? (I don't know how good people want this thing to be)
3. Should Tailwind (if selected as a move it affects) have its duration increased to match the other moves selected?
My votes are as follows...
1. Light Screen, Reflect, Safeguard, Gravity, Trick Room, Tailwind
I chose these because I don't want this to be a weather abuser, I feel that "weather abuser" should be saved for a future CAP project... Trying to cram too many roles into one Pokemon is either a one way ticket to Uber-ville, or will result in a "Jack of All Trades but Master of None" problem.
2. Should boost each by +2 Turns
I chose 2 turns because it doesn't make the ability completely useless, but doesn't overshadow Light Clay, which I believe should always be a viable item if desired.
3. I vote that Tailwind should be given a boost to the same as Gravity/Trick Room.
If we are to only make it +2 turns, that would put Tailwind at 5 turns, which is the same as Gravity and Trick Room are now... and those two aren't being used at 5 turns so why would Tailwind? If we're trying to make Tailwind a viable strategy than it needs to get a sizable boost through this ability.
So there we go, I've started the ball rolling, let's see where this takes us!
REMEMBER, PERSISTANT IS IN NO WAY THE ASSUMED ABILITY. I'M JUST TRYING TO CONCEPTUALIZE HOW WE WANT PERSISTANT TO WORK SO THAT IT'S A VIABLE OPTION ON THE ABILITY POLL.
The field effects and screens though should definately be included.
I don't want the same thing to happen to Persitant that happened to Snare Trap back when it was first thought of, which is that it wasn't explained enough and people were worried that it would be too broken if they voted for it.
So I'm eliminating that problem here and now and initiating a little pseudo-vote on what the community would want out of Persistant so that we have an already established ability when the REAL ability poll comes out.
1. What moves should it affect out of the following list:
Rain Dance
Sunny Day
Hail
Sandstorm
Light Screen
Reflect
Safeguard
Mist
Gravity
Trick Room
Tailwind
Encore
Disable
Heal Block
2. How many extra turns should it give? +2, +3, or +4? (I don't know how good people want this thing to be)
3. Should Tailwind (if selected as a move it affects) have its duration increased to match the other moves selected?
My votes are as follows...
1. Light Screen, Reflect, Safeguard, Gravity, Trick Room, Tailwind
I chose these because I don't want this to be a weather abuser, I feel that "weather abuser" should be saved for a future CAP project... Trying to cram too many roles into one Pokemon is either a one way ticket to Uber-ville, or will result in a "Jack of All Trades but Master of None" problem.
2. Should boost each by +2 Turns
I chose 2 turns because it doesn't make the ability completely useless, but doesn't overshadow Light Clay, which I believe should always be a viable item if desired.
3. I vote that Tailwind should be given a boost to the same as Gravity/Trick Room.
If we are to only make it +2 turns, that would put Tailwind at 5 turns, which is the same as Gravity and Trick Room are now... and those two aren't being used at 5 turns so why would Tailwind? If we're trying to make Tailwind a viable strategy than it needs to get a sizable boost through this ability.
So there we go, I've started the ball rolling, let's see where this takes us!
REMEMBER, PERSISTANT IS IN NO WAY THE ASSUMED ABILITY. I'M JUST TRYING TO CONCEPTUALIZE HOW WE WANT PERSISTANT TO WORK SO THAT IT'S A VIABLE OPTION ON THE ABILITY POLL.
I would argue that tailwind is more powerful than the others. Both gravity and trick room require specifically designed teams to take advantage of that tend to suck if they don't manage to set it up. Tailwind, on the other hand, will make any good team better (a lot better).
Therefore, putting tailwind at 5 turns seems like a better idea to me.
Therefore, putting tailwind at 5 turns seems like a better idea to me.
Ok guys lets not turn this into a poll >.>
It's hard to imagine any of those moves becoming "broken" with this "Persistant", but despite that I do not believe this Pokemon should get it. We don't even know which of those moves it will be getting, whereas some border on broken (or make other items obselete) through a +4 boost, many people are going to want their 3 turn Tailwind boosted as much as possible. But apart from Tailwind every other support move there is already a viable stratergy without being boosted any further. This Pokemon's going to end up the best Supporter out there without adding a specific ability to make it outshadow every other user of every single move on that list. Despite this Pokemon we still want Trick Room Bronzong to be viable! Jumpluff should still be the best Encorer and etc.
It's hard to imagine any of those moves becoming "broken" with this "Persistant", but despite that I do not believe this Pokemon should get it. We don't even know which of those moves it will be getting, whereas some border on broken (or make other items obselete) through a +4 boost, many people are going to want their 3 turn Tailwind boosted as much as possible. But apart from Tailwind every other support move there is already a viable stratergy without being boosted any further. This Pokemon's going to end up the best Supporter out there without adding a specific ability to make it outshadow every other user of every single move on that list. Despite this Pokemon we still want Trick Room Bronzong to be viable! Jumpluff should still be the best Encorer and etc.
I suppose this is where you and I differ, Sunday. I would argue that Gravity/Trick Room/Tailwind are NOT viable strategies as it is, and DO need an ability dedicated to them in order to be so.
Have you ever used/seen a Gravity/Trick Room/Tailwind team ever before in an official Smogon tournemant? I know I haven't... and even if there were some people using these strategies I know for SURE that none of the top players employ these strategies when making an actual competetive team.
Right now, those strategies are basically gimmicks that have no real use when playing to win. With Persistant, we can turn them into actual viable strategies that an actually competetive team could be based around.
And I'm not trying to make it a poll, but I know that when Snare Trap was first conceptualized, it was shot down in the ability poll because it wasn't defined when it should have been. People didn't know how much longer the trapping moves would last, they didn't know how much stronger the trapping moves would be, it was a complete disaster.
I would like to have a completed ability to take to the ability poll, and as far as I know debate on what a tentative new ability should do is not against the rules.
Have you ever used/seen a Gravity/Trick Room/Tailwind team ever before in an official Smogon tournemant? I know I haven't... and even if there were some people using these strategies I know for SURE that none of the top players employ these strategies when making an actual competetive team.
Right now, those strategies are basically gimmicks that have no real use when playing to win. With Persistant, we can turn them into actual viable strategies that an actually competetive team could be based around.
And I'm not trying to make it a poll, but I know that when Snare Trap was first conceptualized, it was shot down in the ability poll because it wasn't defined when it should have been. People didn't know how much longer the trapping moves would last, they didn't know how much stronger the trapping moves would be, it was a complete disaster.
I would like to have a completed ability to take to the ability poll, and as far as I know debate on what a tentative new ability should do is not against the rules.
Well I've actually used Trick Room in the last Smogon Official Tourney but whatever lol...
I'm fine with these moves becoming better, that was the whole purpose of this Pokemon, but if it's ability causes it to completly overshadow the original users of those three moves then I'm not going to allow it. Gravity and Tailwind are one thing, being absolutly bottom-of-the-barrel when it comes to competitive stratergy. But Trick Room for one is on a completly different scale. You don't see Tailwind and Gravity sets for Pokemon on the Smogon analysis, but Trick Room on the other hand is respected enough as a viable stratergy as to be included in several Smogon Analysis in actual sets and is referenced in many others. There needs a fine balance to be struck to allow the traditional users of these moves to still have a place on teams (although I'll agree having only a single TR user on a team would be folly at best).
ninja edit: I think your best chance of getting this off the ground would be to limit it as much as possible as to avoid the impression it's broken, which to me would be 2+ turns on TR, Tailwind, Gravity and Heal Block (Maybe Safeguard...). I wouldn't go for a whole bundle of moves, and I wouldn't go for heaps and heaps of turns. This Pokemon's naturally high speed evens it out as a TR user (presuming it doesn't get U-Turn, as Fast TR to slow U-Turn is a very good stratergy). That I would be fine with.
I'm fine with these moves becoming better, that was the whole purpose of this Pokemon, but if it's ability causes it to completly overshadow the original users of those three moves then I'm not going to allow it. Gravity and Tailwind are one thing, being absolutly bottom-of-the-barrel when it comes to competitive stratergy. But Trick Room for one is on a completly different scale. You don't see Tailwind and Gravity sets for Pokemon on the Smogon analysis, but Trick Room on the other hand is respected enough as a viable stratergy as to be included in several Smogon Analysis in actual sets and is referenced in many others. There needs a fine balance to be struck to allow the traditional users of these moves to still have a place on teams (although I'll agree having only a single TR user on a team would be folly at best).
ninja edit: I think your best chance of getting this off the ground would be to limit it as much as possible as to avoid the impression it's broken, which to me would be 2+ turns on TR, Tailwind, Gravity and Heal Block (Maybe Safeguard...). I wouldn't go for a whole bundle of moves, and I wouldn't go for heaps and heaps of turns. This Pokemon's naturally high speed evens it out as a TR user (presuming it doesn't get U-Turn, as Fast TR to slow U-Turn is a very good stratergy). That I would be fine with.
Is +2 turns not what I'm advocating? I don't want it to be for any longer than that. Although I now that I think of it, incorporating the Screens into Persistant does seem a bit much. There's atleast still Light Clay as an option if people want longer lasting Screens.
And the presenting it as not broken is the whole reason behind my want for a pseudo-vote from the community. People can't complain that it's broken if it's what THEY voted for. It's the best way to spur debate on the tentative ability, and I don't see any other place for it to be done but now. During the Ability poll is too late, and any time before this thread was certainly too early.
And the presenting it as not broken is the whole reason behind my want for a pseudo-vote from the community. People can't complain that it's broken if it's what THEY voted for. It's the best way to spur debate on the tentative ability, and I don't see any other place for it to be done but now. During the Ability poll is too late, and any time before this thread was certainly too early.
I agree this thread shouldn't include any polling.
Instead of asking everyone about what moves they want to be extended with a proposed ability, you should instead define "Persistant" better.
We can argue which of the abilities this Pokemon should get, rather than focusing on an ability that might not even be used.
Instead of asking everyone about what moves they want to be extended with a proposed ability, you should instead define "Persistant" better.
We can argue which of the abilities this Pokemon should get, rather than focusing on an ability that might not even be used.
But that's the whole point of the poll: to gather popular opinion on which moves Persistent should/shouldn't affect and use these opinions to form the definition.
On that note...
1. What moves should it affect?
Mist
Gravity
Trick Room
Tailwind
Basically, the field effects that don't already have their own turn-extending item.
2. How many extra turns should it give?
+2 sounds like a fair compromise. I'd be all for +3 if not for fear of making Bronzong and Dusknoir obsolete as Trick Roomers.
3. Should Tailwind have its duration increased to match the other moves selected?
IMO yes, but Tailwind is unused to the point where I don't believe any serious analysis on the ramifications of long-term Tailwind has been done. If it turns out to be too powerful, then it can be altered.
EDIT: It just occured to me that this post may or may not cause a modhammer to land on me. ._.
On that note...
1. What moves should it affect?
Mist
Gravity
Trick Room
Tailwind
Basically, the field effects that don't already have their own turn-extending item.
2. How many extra turns should it give?
+2 sounds like a fair compromise. I'd be all for +3 if not for fear of making Bronzong and Dusknoir obsolete as Trick Roomers.
3. Should Tailwind have its duration increased to match the other moves selected?
IMO yes, but Tailwind is unused to the point where I don't believe any serious analysis on the ramifications of long-term Tailwind has been done. If it turns out to be too powerful, then it can be altered.
EDIT: It just occured to me that this post may or may not cause a modhammer to land on me. ._.
I guess people have forgotten the first rule in our Forum Rules:
I don't know why -- but I haven't given infractions for the previous two violations. If it continues, I will. Sunday is the TL, and he's been doing a fine job of making polls and threads where necessary. Let him do his job.
I don't know why -- but I haven't given infractions for the previous two violations. If it continues, I will. Sunday is the TL, and he's been doing a fine job of making polls and threads where necessary. Let him do his job.
haha owned.
anyway no need to make a poll out of it. IMO tailwind should not be boosted to match trick room and gravity and trick room should not e granted 2 extra turns by this ability
moreover, let's actually talk about real abilities for now, like back when we were discussing frisk and the like. those are more important right now.
On a side note, i can't wait for the concept art to be decided so that we can match the ability to the pokemon's flavour.
anyway no need to make a poll out of it. IMO tailwind should not be boosted to match trick room and gravity and trick room should not e granted 2 extra turns by this ability
moreover, let's actually talk about real abilities for now, like back when we were discussing frisk and the like. those are more important right now.
On a side note, i can't wait for the concept art to be decided so that we can match the ability to the pokemon's flavour.
I think someone suggested Scrappy, which would definitely allow it to use Rapid Spin on ghosts, which is also a plus. Another thing that I think it would be nice side-effect (admittedly, a little gimmicky) is that Scrappy would also allow it to paralyze anything with Glare (barring the 75% accuracy). Since Thunder-Wave doesn't hit grounds, and Glare usually doesn't hit Ghosts, Scrappy could allow for some rather different paralysis support that currently isn't in the meta-game, IE seeing a Dugtrio paralyzed.
I do rather like Frisk, too.
I do rather like Frisk, too.
I'd like to put Shed Skin up for consideration. This Pokémon is already immune to Paralysis, so why not let it get out of status conditions easily, too? Both the much preferred Daddy Long-Legs/Hands/Arms and DJD's symbiote snake are good for this ability, as both spiders and snakes shed their skin from time to time. It's better than Insomnia or Vital Spirit, since we can still give it Rest and have it get out of Sleep quickly, along with all the other status conditions. I'm not sure if this ability was suggested already, but it's a good idea to me.
On a side note, I'm not sure why everybody's using Persistant when the correct spelling is actually Persistent. *spelling freak*
On a side note, I'm not sure why everybody's using Persistant when the correct spelling is actually Persistent. *spelling freak*
i don't think we need shed skin. it's already immune to one status (poison) entirely, and it's immune to the most common form of paralysis in thunderwave. burn won't hurt it too much, as it's a utility pokemon first, a special attacker second, and freeze is just hax you can't do anything about, not that this should be taking ice attacks if it can avoid it anyway.
persistent seems perfect for the smogimp and the snake, as well as possible for the daddy long legs.
persistent seems perfect for the smogimp and the snake, as well as possible for the daddy long legs.
Y'know, back on the topic of that "persistant" ability, that seems like
it'd be a good ability to give to a donkey ._.
it'd be a good ability to give to a donkey ._.
Is Persistent even necessary? I mean, is a large movepool of useful supporting moves not enough?
EDIT: Nevermind. I remembered that this thread is for slappin down ideas, so I'll take it to the polls.
EDIT: Nevermind. I remembered that this thread is for slappin down ideas, so I'll take it to the polls.
I feel that Persistent is necessary, not only because this is meant to use utility moves well, but because we want it to be able to use some utility moves that are underused, like Tailwind. If Tailwind stays at 3 turns, it doesn't matter how well suited to use support moves this becomes, it will still have no use. On the same vein, Trick Room could use a turn extension, as well as Gravity and Heal Block. Even the screens could be affected if the extension was 2 turns instead of 3 (so that Light Clay doesn't turn obsolete).
I can't help but feel persistant is as fanboyish as Mountaineer was for scylant. There is nothing wrong with giving it a shit trait you know.
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