Counter This Pokemon [OLD VERSION]

[Nix_Hex]

Glad to see we are eager to continue! Let's move on, then. Our next threat has been Uber for at least part of its generations until now. It possesses great typing that allows it to switch in on many common attacking types, most notably Fighting. It sports a great movepool and a frightening Base 130 Special Attack to complement it. I'm talking about none other than Latios!

Latios @ Choice Scarf

Nature: Timid
Ability: Levitate
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Trick
-Draco Meteor
-Psyshock
-Surf

Choice Scarf Latios can really change the tides of a match, revenge killing fast and dangerous threats like Tornadus-T and Choice Scarf Thundurus-T. It can provide support for an teammate, potentially crippling an opponent's wall with Trick. Share your counters!

 

[superbadd]

Snorlax @ Choice Band
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Thick fat
252 Hp 252 Atk 4 def
-Body slam
-Pursuit
-Earthquake
-Fire punch

Can easily tank a draco meteor/psyshock from latios and destroy it with cb pursuit. Trick works against latios as it benefits in no way from receiving a choice band while snorlax doesn't really care much about scarf. If latios decides to stay in, CB body slam can easily nap an OHKO after prior damage. Surf on snorlax does laughable damage, it's like your'e giving tubs a bath.

 

[Sayonara]

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf | Serene Grace
Jolly | 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
~ Iron Head
~ Ice Punch
~ Fire Punch
~ U-Turn

Jirachi can comfortably switch-into a Surf, Psyshock or Draco Meteor, and doesn't care about Trick since Jirachi has a Scarf. Jirachi can deal a lot of damage with Iron Head, or can use U-Turn to hit Latios super-effectively. The other moves are for coverage.

 

[Bogmire]

Tyranitar@Choice Band
Adamant
Sand Stream
EVs: 180 HP/252 Atk/76 Spe
-Crunch
-Pursuit
-Stone Edge
-Superpower

Surf will never 2HKO even after SR. gg Latios

 

[HiImGrey]

Empoleon @ Choice Scarf
Nature: Modest
Ability: Torrent
4 Hp / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Stealth Rock / Signal Beam / Hidden Power Ground

Takes next to nothing from any of the 3 moves. Last slot can be Signal Beam to hit Celebi, Psychics and Darks while Hidden Power Ground hits Steels. Stealth Rock can be used if no slots on any other team member.

 

[G-Von]

Ferrothorn@Choice band
Brave Nature
Iron Barbs
248 HP/252 Attack/4 SpD
-Gyro Ball
-Bulldoze
-Explosion
-Power Whip

Draco Meteor vs 248 HP/8 SpD Ferrothorn: 100-118 (28.49 - 33.61%) -- 41.36% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Gyro Ball vs 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 388-457 (128.47 - 151.32%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Explosion vs 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 430-507 (142.38 - 167.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Latios might not even be able to 3HKO an offensive Ferrothorn. A defensive Ferrothorn would probably own Latios just as bad. Now lets say Latios used Trick on the switch:

Gyro Ball vs 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 259-306 (85.76 - 101.32%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Explosion vs 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 288-339 (95.36 - 112.25%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Yep, still massive amounts of destruction.

 

[Rackham]

Yeah, we all know what this guy does...

Scizor @Choice Band / Leftovers
Adamant
248 HP / 236 SpDef / 8 Spe
~U-turn
~Bullet Punch
~Pursuit
~Superpower / Roost

EVs mean that Surf can only 3HKO in the rain (normally a 4HKO). Pursuit and U-turn OHKO 100% of the time with SR (Pursuit OHKOs about 70% of the time without SR) and Bullet Punch does 53-63% damage.

Leftovers + Roost is an option for added survivability since you can heal off the damage from any of Latios's attack's with one Roost but power drop is noticeable.

 

[ganj4lF]

Metagross @ Choice Band
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Nature: Adamant
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Hammer Arm
- Pursuit

Choice Band Metagross can sponge anything Latios throws at him, provided Rain is not up. Draco Meteor is the most damaging attack, but it fails to 2HKO; from there, Metagross can OHKO with both Meteor Mash (if Latios stays in) and Pursuit (if it chooses to switch). If Latios Tricks on the switch, it won't be happy to find itself holding a Choice Band; Metagross would lose its ability to OHKO, but still will be able to deal a huge chunk of damage to Latios and come back later to revenge with Bullet Punch.

The only problem with this set is that it's 2HKO'd most of the times by Surf in rain. In that case, Metagross can still be used to counter Latios, provided it has taken 55.3% prior damage, by switching in and Bullet Punching it to oblivion. Another possibility is to switch in after a Protect, or a successful prediction, on something that's not Surf and proceed to counter Latios as described above.

Calcs

Draco Meteor: 124-147 (34.06 - 40.38%)
Surf: 113-134 (31.04 - 36.81%)
Surf (in Rain): 170-200 (46.7 - 54.94%)

Choice Band Meteor Mash: 333-393 (110.26 - 130.13%)
Choice Band Bullet Punch: 135-159 (44.7 - 52.64%)
Choice Band Pursuit: 180-212 (59.6 - 70.19%) (if it stays in)
Choice Band Pursuit: 356-420 (117.88 - 139.07%) (if it switches)

Meteor Mash w/o Choice Band: 222-262 (73.5 - 86.75%)
Pursuit w/o Choice Band: 120-142 (39.73 - 47.01%) (if it stays in)
Pursuit w/o Choice Band: 238-280 (78.8 - 92.71%) (if it switches)

 

[DerpGadget]

Escavalier @ Choice Band
Trait: Shell Armor
EVs: 200 HP / 200 Atk / 108 SDef
Adamant Nature

- Megahorn
- Pursuit
- Iron Head
- X-Scissor

I think Escavalier is a good counter to Latios, or at least a Check.
The stronger attack that Latios can use against it is Surf (because of the stat drop Draco Meteor loses effectiveness) which is a 3HKO after Rocks.
I chose Shell Armor as the ability to avoid CritHax from the opponent.
After Latios' attack on the switch-in, Escavalier can Pursuit trap Latios or, if you predict a Trick, KO with Megahorn.
X-Scissor is more reliable than megahorn, because of its perfect accuracy, and it is a sure OHKO, even with a scarf, so Megahorn should be used only if you need more power against other Pokémons.
Iron Head is the secondary stab, and it can cause Flinch and with it Ragequit from the opponent.

Calcs

200 Atk Escavalier (+Atk) X-Scissor vs 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 114,24% - 135,1%
Guaranteed OHKO

200 Atk Choice Band Escavalier (+Atk) X-Scissor vs 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 169,87% - 200,66%
Guaranteed OHKO

200 Atk Choice Band Escavalier (+Atk) Pursuit vs 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 113,25% - 133,77%
Guaranteed OHKO

200 Atk Escavalier (+Atk) Pursuit vs 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 76,16% - 90,07%
2 hits to KO (if it switches it's a OHKO)

200 Atk Escavalier (+Atk) Megahorn vs 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 170,86% - 201,66%
Guaranteed OHKO

252 SpAtk Latios Draco Meteor vs 200 HP/108 SpDef Escavalier: 29,91% - 35,35%
After entry hazards: 3 hits to KO

252 SpAtk Latios Surf vs 200 HP/108 SpDef Escavalier: 27,19% - 32,02%
After entry hazards: 3-4 hits to KO

252 SpAtk Latios Psyshock vs 200 HP/0 Def Escavalier: 19,03% - 22,66%
After entry hazards:4-5 hits to KO

 

[Cherub Agent]

Scizor @ Choice Scarf
Technician / Jolly
4 HP - 252 Atk - 252 Spe
~U-turn
~Bullet Punch
~Pursuit
~Superpower

Scizor can come in on ANY of Latios's moves (even Trick) and either U-Turn to gain momentum (or obviously kill Latios if it stays in) or Pursuit Latios, thus trapping it. This Scizor set is also extremely effective against many fast and frail Special sweepers, inclding Starmie, Gengar and Alakazam.

 

[WaterBomb]

Bisharp @ Life Orb
Adamant Nature
Trait: Defiant
24 HP/252 Atk/232 Spe
-Sucker Punch
-Iron Head
-Thunder Wave
-Pursuit
None of Latios' attacks will ever OHKO (Draco Meteor does 45.8 - 53.89%), and Bisharp always OHKOs with Sucker Punch (even if it gets tricked a Scarf). If Latios uses Trick on the switch, it would have to continue using Trick to avoid Sucker Punch, so Bisharp could just use Iron Head instead (55.96 - 65.89%, a guaranteed 2HKO). 232 Speed EVs allow Bisharp to outspeed all positive natured base 110s if it gets tricked a Scarf, which gives it utility against the Trick users of the tier. I think the unpredictable EV spread makes it more dangerous, able to catch many threats off guard.


Also...

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Levitate
Sassy Nature
252 HP/84 Atk/80 Def/92 SpD
2 Spe IVs
-Gyro Ball
-Stealth Rock
-HP Ice/Toxic
-Earthquake

Standard OU Tank Bronzong, is at most 5HKOed by Surf (22.78 - 26.92%), whereas Gyro Ball is a guaranteed 2HKO (57.61 - 67.88%). Pretty self explanatory. Bronzong isn't that fond of getting a scarf, but it still 3HKOs with Gyro Ball if it ends up with it.


And finally...

Registeel @ Leftovers
Clear Body
Careful nature
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
-Stealth Rock
-Thunder Wave
-Seismic Toss
-Earthquake

Registeel tanks anything Latios has like a champ, with Surf doing 56-67 (15.38 - 18.4%) damage. If Latios doesn't steal Registeel's leftovers with Trick, Surf is a 7HKO. If he does, then it's a 6HKO. Meanwhile, Seismis Toss will ALWAYS 4HKO Latios (with or without Leftovers), meaning Registeel will have plenty of HP to spare. If Latios doesn't trick it a Scarf, it can even T-Wave Latios for possible FPs and moving faster. Supports the team with Stealth Rock as well.


Just from looking at it, essentially any Steel type with decent special bulk that isn't weak to Surf can handle Latios with relative ease, since it's only carrying a Scarf and not Specs. This list would be much shorter if Latios had a Specs, methinks.

 

[EspeonX]

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Download
Hasty Nature
4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
- U-Turn
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt

Because Latios has lower defense than Special defense, Genesect gets an attack boost from Download. Draco Meteor does 42.05 - 49.82%, which will never 2HKO due to the SAtk drop. Surf does less, doing 38.16 - 45.23%. Lastly, Psyshock is laughable damage, 26.86% - 31.8% to Genesect. U-Turn does 106.29 - 125.17%, so Genesect kills it quite easily.

 

[Electrolyte]

Bisharp @ Life Orb
Adamant Nature
Trait: Defiant
24 HP/252 Atk/232 Spe
-Sucker Punch
-Iron Head
-Thunder Wave
-Pursuit
None of Latios' attacks will ever OHKO (Draco Meteor does 45.8 - 53.89%), and Bisharp always OHKOs with Sucker Punch (even if it gets tricked a Scarf). If Latios uses Trick on the switch, it would have to continue using Trick to avoid Sucker Punch, so Bisharp could just use Iron Head instead (55.96 - 65.89%, a guaranteed 2HKO). 232 Speed EVs allow Bisharp to outspeed all positive natured base 110s if it gets tricked a Scarf, which gives it utility against the Trick users of the tier. I think the unpredictable EV spread makes it more dangerous, able to catch many threats off guard.


Also...


[img]

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Levitate
Sassy Nature
252 HP/84 Atk/80 Def/92 SpD
2 Spe IVs
-Gyro Ball
-Stealth Rock
-HP Ice/Toxic
-Earthquake

Standard OU Tank Bronzong, is at most 5HKOed by Surf (22.78 - 26.92%), whereas Gyro Ball is a guaranteed 2HKO (57.61 - 67.88%). Pretty self explanatory. Bronzong isn't that fond of getting a scarf, but it still 3HKOs with Gyro Ball if it ends up with it.


And finally...


[img]

Registeel @ Leftovers
Clear Body
Careful nature
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
-Stealth Rock
-Thunder Wave
-Seismic Toss
-Earthquake

Registeel tanks anything Latios has like a champ, with Surf doing 56-67 (15.38 - 18.4%) damage. If Latios doesn't steal Registeel's leftovers with Trick, Surf is a 7HKO. If he does, then it's a 6HKO. Meanwhile, Seismis Toss will ALWAYS 4HKO Latios (with or without Leftovers), meaning Registeel will have plenty of HP to spare. If Latios doesn't trick it a Scarf, it can even T-Wave Latios for possible FPs and moving faster. Supports the team with Stealth Rock as well.

Just from looking at it, essentially any Steel type with decent special bulk that isn't weak to Surf can handle Latios with relative ease, since it's only carrying a Scarf and not Specs. This list would be much shorter if Latios had a Specs, methinks.[/QUOTE]

Oh come on, leave some pokemon for the rest of us.

I'm not sure if the list would be shorter; faster pokemon such as Dugtrio or Alakazam could definitely come in and KO. Though, not too many times, they can't.

Here's my pokemon:
[img]http://media.pldh.net/pokemon/gen5/blackwhite_animated_front/251.gif
Celebi @ Leftovers
252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Calm Nature
~Hidden Power Ice
~Recover
~Giga Drain
~Reflect / Perish Song / Thunder Wave
SpDefensive Celebi is a great counter to Latios, tanking DM's and replying with Twave. It can Recover stall until Latios is at -6, and then start HP icing.
Calcs:
252 SpA Draco Meteor: 42-49%
252 SpA Draco Meteor at -2: 21-25%
252 SpA Psyshock: 16-19%
252 SpA Surf: 9-11%

0 SpA HP Ice: 31-37%- high chance to 3HKO

You could also opt for CM over Twave, but nobody is dumb enough to keep Latios in that long.

 

[TIO]

Standard Ferrothorn wrecks this.
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Iron Thorns
0 Speed IVs
252 HP/88 Def/168 SpD
Gyro Ball
Power Whip
Stealth Rock
Spikes
2HKOs Latios with Gyro Ball.
37.21-43.75% damage with Draco meteor, which is cut in half the first three uses.
18.75-22.15% with Psyshock.
16.76-19.88% with Surf.
It won't enjoy a scarf, though. It will still 2HKO it anyways.

 

[Ames]

Everything which 'won't enjoy a scarf' but can still KO Latios is not really a counter imo because anyone with half a brain would just switch out after you switch into Trick - usually to their own hazard setter, dual screener or boosting sweeper which puts you in a pretty difficult situation again.

 

[Shining_Latios]

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 232 SDef / 24 Spd
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Brave Bird

Latios can't do much to Specially Defensive Skarmory bar under Rain which Surf does 43.11 - 50.59%. Skarmory can take all his attacks and proceed to Roost the damage off or even set up Spikes and force a switch.

Draco Meteor: 31.73 - 37.12%
Surf: 28.74 - 33.83%
Psyshock: 14.67 - 17.36%

 

[Electrolyte]

Yeah, but Skarmory can't take a scarf, so I'd consider that a check. Ferrothorn too.

 

[Nix_Hex]

so ginganinja gave me the idea for our next specimen but declined to post it and called this a cesspool of pc++. The point of this thread was not to be pc++ like the old 'counter that (tier) pokemon' so I request that you guys put some content into your posts. Three sentences minimum. I encourage you guys to post multiple sets like the OP states -- Thank you Waterbomb for being one of like two people who read that. If you can't meet the minimum I'll just delete your posts, nothing personal.

Anyway, here we go. This week we cover one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the metagame. It has great mixed offenses, so we are going to take advantage of these.

Salamence @ Life Orb

Nature: Naive
Ability: Moxie
64 Atk / 192 SpA / 252 Spe
-Draco Meteor
-Fire Blast
-Outrage
-Earthquake

This is MixMence v3.0. Using a Life Orb over a Choice Scarf allows Fire Blast to be more than just a fail save against Ferrothorn and other Steel types -- Salamence can actually do something with that Moxie boost instead of being locked into a special move. Be careful with your choices, since MixMence at worst 2HKOes all but the sturdiest of walls when switching in before a Moxie boost.

 

[EonX]

Say hello to basically the only thing that's going to take a STAB move + another move from MixMence:

Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Reflect
- Moonlight
- Ice Beam
- Thunder Wave

Just your basic Support Cresselia. With titanic defenses on both sides, an immunity to EQ, and no weaknesses to any of Salamence's moves, Cresselia is about the only defensive switch-in to Salamence that doesn't risk getting obliterated by correct prediction. The strongest move Salamence has on Cresselia is Draco Meteor, which does 44% - 52%. After the special attack drop, Salamence is either forced into Outrage, or forced to switch out as Cresselia can take numerous measures to take out Salamence. If Salamence stays in, it has to use Outrage to even have a chance. Thankfully, it can only do 32% - 38%, meaning Cresselia can use Moonlight to recover most of the damage taken from Draco Meteor + Outrage should she be in sunlight. Reflect can then further weaken Outrage, or Cresselia can choose to blast it with Ice Beam, a sure OHKO after 2 rounds of LO recoil. Sun Support from Ninetales will greatly aid Cresselia in taking on Salamence as Moonlight's healing is boosted to two-thirds (66%) of Cresselia's max HP, however, Cresselia is perfectly capable of taking on Salamence in neutral weather as she can outstall Outrage until she's in a comfortable HP range to go for the KO.

 

[WaterBomb]

This one is much harder. Let's start with Cresselia...

Cresselia @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
Levitate
252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA
-Reflect
-Thunder Wave
-Ice Beam
-Moonlight
Support Cresselia with this spread takes 45.27 - 53.37% from Draco Meteor, Salamence's best first attack against it. Due to the SpA drop, Outrage would be the next damaging attack at 32.65 - 38.73%, meaning it could not KO Cresselia on the following turn. Cresselia could either Moonlight to begin recovering HP, or go straight for the KO with Ice Beam (88.21 - 103.92%, guaranteed OHKO after two turns of Life Orb damage). Cresselia is actually the only pokemon I've found so far that can actually tank two of Salamence's attacks back to back and still survive, which is pretty remarkable. I guess the only other way to counter is to find a pokemon that outspeeds that is sturdy enough to withstand any of Mence's attacks on the switch in...

EDIT: Damn it, ninja'd. I'll leave this here for more precise calcs, but the above set is the same =/

EDIT2: I discovered that a gimmicky ScarfCune set with 252 HP/200 SpA/56 Spe works, but I'm sure there are other, better options...

EDIT3: Here's one, but it's a shaky counter since it ends up at low health...

Keldeo @ Leftovers
Timid Nature
Justified
252 HP/64 SpA/192 Spe
-Secret Sword
-Hydro Pump
-Hidden Power Ice
-Calm Mind
A variation on the CM Keldeo set, with HP Ice mainly to deal with those pesky dragons that resist both of its STABs. With the given EV spread Keldeo outspeeds all positive natured base 100s, has some bulk with 252 in HP, and the remaining EVs in SpA for a little power in case it can't set up (which in this case it can't). Keldeo can switch into any attack Mence uses and survive after Stealth rock, and in return will always OHKO with HP Ice.

 

[Bogmire]

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Sand Stream
Jolly
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
-Rock Slide
-Crunch
-Pursuit
-Superpower

Tyranitar can safely switch into any of Salamence's attacks without getting OHKOed even after stealth rock. It then proceeds to outspeed and OHKO with Rock Slide (I have it instead of Stone Edge because its accuracy is much more reliable for the purpose of countering mixmence). Here's some calcs:

Salamence Earthquake vs Tyranitar
322 Atk vs 256 Def & 342 HP (100 Base Power): 236 - 278 (69.01% - 81.29%)

Salamence Draco Meteor vs Tyranitar under sand
304 Atk vs 354 Def & 342 HP (140 Base Power): 168 - 198 (49.12% - 57.89%)

easily survives its strongest attacks and outspeeds and then...

Tyranitar Rock Slide vs Salamence
367 Atk vs 196 Def & 331 HP (75 Base Power): 302 - 356 (91.24% - 107.55%)

Guaranteed dead Salamence. No Stealth Rock needed due to sand and LO recoil.

EDIT: probably gimmicky as hell but this bulky Mamoswine is basically a textbook counter to Mixmence.

Mamoswine @ Leftovers
Thick Fat
Adamant
252 HP/120 Atk/136 SpD
-Ice Shard
-Earthquake
-Stealth Rock
-Roar/Toxic/Light Screen/filler

Thanks to Thick Fat, Fire Blast is only doing 42.45%-50.00% and Mamoswine easily OHKOs back with Ice Shard

Draco Meteor vs Mamoswine
304 Atk vs 190 Def & 424 HP (140 Base Power): 313 - 370 (73.82% - 87.26%)

Guaranteed to never OHKO after SR

Outrage vs Mamoswine
322 Atk vs 196 Def & 424 HP (120 Base Power): 276 - 325 (65.09% - 76.65%)

Will not OHKO

Ice Shard vs Salamence
358 Atk vs 196 Def & 331 HP (40 Base Power): 316 - 376 (95.47% - 113.60%)

Mamoswine is guaranteed to OHKO Salamence w/ priority Ice shard after 1 round of LO recoil

 

[Twins]

Salamence? Easy.

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Trait: Trace/Download
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Ice Beam
- Discharge
- Thunder Wave/Toxic
- Recover
Look no further than Porygon2, your friendly neighbourhood duck. It can switch into anything MixMence carries with ease, as LO Draco Meteor does only 43.85 - 51.34%. From there, feel free to murder it with Ice Beam, which OHKOes 100% of the time, Recover off the damage from a predicted Outrage, which does 33.69 - 39.84%, or cripple it for the rest of the match with Thunder Wave. You do have a chance of dying if rocks are up, meaning it's not perfect, but no other pokemon can take 2 hits from Salamence and then OHKO it right back like Porygon2 can.

 

[ganj4lF]

EDIT: lol sorry, wrong calculations...

EDIT2: calculations for Porygon2 are wrong:
Draco Meteor: 162-192 (43.31 - 51.33%)
Outrage: 127-150 (33.95 - 40.1%)

If you factor Stealth Rock in, Mence can KO by Draco Meteoring you on the switch, then Outrage. Of course, it needs to roll high two times, or to have a layer of Spikes up; anyway, your calculations are somewhat flawed.

 

[Twins]

We must be using different damage calculators then. And really, your results differ from mine by less than 0.5%, so it doesn't matter in the slightest sense.

If you read the last sentence, I said that exact same thing you did.

 

[Nix_Hex]

If you're going to do one-on-one calculations, use the manly calc (Honkalculator 4000). That gives concrete integer numbers which are more reliable than percentages since that's what, you know, the game (and the sim) uses. Back to the point, please.