I've got to try that set, seeing as you crushed me with it.
How much does it miss Recover?
It also seems to break stall really well, seeing as if you've copied Nattorei or Forretress you're immune to Toxic as well as Leech Seed in Nattorei's case.
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Creative (and good) Movesets (READ THE OP FIRST)
- Thread starter sax king
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I've got to try that set, seeing as you crushed me with it.
How much does it miss Recover?
It also seems to break stall really well, seeing as if you've copied Nattorei or Forretress you're immune to Toxic as well as Leech Seed in Nattorei's case.
The EVs strike me as a tad problematic.
Volcarona @ leftovers
Flame Body
Modest Nature
252 Special Attack / 252 Defense / 80 HP
-Butterfly Dance
-Flame Dance
-Morning Sun
-Will-O-Wisp
There is no doubt that Volcarona is a fantasmical sweeper, but I don't think this is really the way to do it. Needless to say this is walled to hell and back by anything with Flash Fire, and you do NOT want to be forced to switch out and lose all those BD boosts. You pretty much need a coverage move or something, like say HP Fighting like someone suggested, for killing Heatran and Tyranitar and such, which forces you to choose between Wisp and Morning Sun for your last move... both are good, but I personally would rather just run Morning Sun with 252 HP / 252 Def EVs, since Volcarona only needs to sponge hits long enough to get 3-4 boosts, after which it's pretty much GG no matter what happens. Axa is right, BTW, Lum is fantastic for Morning Sun sets since both Toxic and paralysis ruin you. Speed boost on BD kind of makes Wisp pointless after you get a few boosts. And not all that creative, honestly... :0
Does the Chansey calc factor in Evo Stone? :\ That calc is really only impressive if it does. The rest of these calcs are pretty underwhelming, no 2HKOs on anyone (including Registeel due to the Attack drop), so this doesn't strike me as particularly effective.
Feraligatr @ Life Orb
Mild Nature
Torrent
148 Atk / 252 SAtk / 108 Spd
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- HP Grass
- Superpower
HP Grass for Gastrodon/Quagsire, Ice Beam for Grass types, Superpower for Chansey/Registeel, and Hydro Pump for STAB. Here are some calcs:
Superpower vs 4 HP/252 Def Chansey
578 - 680 90% - 105.9%
Superpower vs 252 HP/4 Def Registeel
188 - 222 51.6% - 61%
Superpower vs 248 HP/252 Def Milotic
112 - 132 28.5% - 33.6%
Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252 SDef Registeel
108 - 127 29.7% - 34.9%
HP Grass vs 248 HP/252 Def Milotic
128 - 152 32.6% - 38.7%
I've posted Unaware Clefable before, opting for a Copycat + Assist Power idea - it was fun, but this set is way more efficient.
Clefable @ Leftovers Trait: Unaware
EVs: 255 HP / 152 Def / 100 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Flamethrower
- Cosmic Power
- Toxic
- Moonlight / Wish
Pretty simple really. Cosmic Power boosts your defense and encourages your opponent to set-up alongside you - only for you to Toxic Stall it to death as Unaware negates their attack boosts. Flamethrower is obviously there to give it an ability to attack, damage steels, cause a chance of a burn and wear down your opponent (which will go straight through any defense boosts). Recovery is unfortunately not as good as it could be, giving you either the low PP and halved in weather Moonlight or the delayed Wish, though both moves can have extra utility - Clefable will love Sunny Day support, and it's allies will appreciate being passed 200hp. What separates Clefable from other stallers is for its ability to stop alot of sweeps. People expect Magic Guard alot, so rarely realise the folly of setting-up on an Unaware user, and it really disrupts your opponents momentum.
It has issues. There's definite Four-moveslot syndrome going on, and certain pokemon completely wall it, such as Gliscor and Heatran. Having just one weakness is nice, but it's a glaring one, so without enough Cosmic Powers, it won't be surviving fighting moves. Ghosts make a great partner, for obvious reasons.
But yeah, without this guy, I sorely miss the ability to regain control over an enemy who just starts blazing through my team with the aid of stat boosts, so Unfable has become a staple of all my teams.
Clefable @ Leftovers Trait: Unaware
EVs: 255 HP / 152 Def / 100 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Flamethrower
- Cosmic Power
- Toxic
- Moonlight / Wish
Pretty simple really. Cosmic Power boosts your defense and encourages your opponent to set-up alongside you - only for you to Toxic Stall it to death as Unaware negates their attack boosts. Flamethrower is obviously there to give it an ability to attack, damage steels, cause a chance of a burn and wear down your opponent (which will go straight through any defense boosts). Recovery is unfortunately not as good as it could be, giving you either the low PP and halved in weather Moonlight or the delayed Wish, though both moves can have extra utility - Clefable will love Sunny Day support, and it's allies will appreciate being passed 200hp. What separates Clefable from other stallers is for its ability to stop alot of sweeps. People expect Magic Guard alot, so rarely realise the folly of setting-up on an Unaware user, and it really disrupts your opponents momentum.
It has issues. There's definite Four-moveslot syndrome going on, and certain pokemon completely wall it, such as Gliscor and Heatran. Having just one weakness is nice, but it's a glaring one, so without enough Cosmic Powers, it won't be surviving fighting moves. Ghosts make a great partner, for obvious reasons.
But yeah, without this guy, I sorely miss the ability to regain control over an enemy who just starts blazing through my team with the aid of stat boosts, so Unfable has become a staple of all my teams.
Linoone @ Flame Orb
Timid Nature
Quick Feet
EVs: 252HP / 200 Spe / 56 SpA (Timid)
~ Switcheroo
~ Protect
~ Charm / Tickle
~ Surf / Facade
Quite risky set, but when the strategy is executed successfully, it could be really annoying, especially to physical sweepers, which is the main target of this set. Protect first for free status ailment to activate Quick Feet, then you can Switcheroo to transfer the status ailment. Most likely you'll get Leftovers, but be careful with choice items holders (except for choice band I guess, it benefits Linoone if it uses Facade, but Linoone is not designed to hit hard anyway; let alone if it is burnt). If you survive after you trade items, you can cripple your opponent even more with Charm or Tickle. Then MAYBE you could finish of your opponent with Surf, but this is very unlikely, unless your opponent is Rhyperior (I don't have the calculation actually, can someone do it for me to make sure?).
This is actually perfect to face Doryuuzu (Excadrill), particularly if it holds Balloon (which it usually does) and it attempts to Earthquake you. If any special defense wall or grass or dragon pokemon bother you that much you could run Facade, but you might have to use Toxic Orb instead of Flame Orb.
Timid Nature
Quick Feet
EVs: 252HP / 200 Spe / 56 SpA (Timid)
~ Switcheroo
~ Protect
~ Charm / Tickle
~ Surf / Facade
Quite risky set, but when the strategy is executed successfully, it could be really annoying, especially to physical sweepers, which is the main target of this set. Protect first for free status ailment to activate Quick Feet, then you can Switcheroo to transfer the status ailment. Most likely you'll get Leftovers, but be careful with choice items holders (except for choice band I guess, it benefits Linoone if it uses Facade, but Linoone is not designed to hit hard anyway; let alone if it is burnt). If you survive after you trade items, you can cripple your opponent even more with Charm or Tickle. Then MAYBE you could finish of your opponent with Surf, but this is very unlikely, unless your opponent is Rhyperior (I don't have the calculation actually, can someone do it for me to make sure?).
This is actually perfect to face Doryuuzu (Excadrill), particularly if it holds Balloon (which it usually does) and it attempts to Earthquake you. If any special defense wall or grass or dragon pokemon bother you that much you could run Facade, but you might have to use Toxic Orb instead of Flame Orb.
But Dory outspeeds you by a lot even with the Quick Feet boost, and will either 2HKO you if it hits you on the switch in, or OHKO you if it SDs as you do. Sorry, but I don't see how this would ever be able to cripple Doryuuzu unless you come in on a Rapid Spin or something.
oh I'm sorry I forgot to mention that this set would ideally have Drizzle Politoed as its team mate. Not only it'll cancel Dory's ability, it'll boost Surf.
Seems like too much work for too little reward. If you really wanted to cripple Doryuuzu, you would just use Azumarill with Rain boosted Aqua Jet.
Or anything with Mach Punch. Seriously, throw a Sandslash constantly at my team and then i'll start worrying.
To be honest, the best way I can see Quick Feet working is if you lure in an Espeon and throw down a single layer of Toxic Spikes, and that's just convoluted.
Dotekkotsu @ Evolution Stone
252 HP/4 Atk/252 SpDef
Careful / Guts
Bulk Up
Payback
Drain Punch
Mach Punch
Before you dismiss this set as an inferior Roobushin, this is meant to function differently to Roob. It has a lot of the same counters and can't muscle through any flying types before getting a few bulk ups, but its special and physical bulk pre-setup is what makes it worth using, enabling it to lure in and beat psychics/ghosts who might try to counter it.
With the above EVs this is how much special/physical bulk it has:
Modest Specs Shandera Overheat: (81.02% - 95.45%)
Timid Specs Latios Draco Meteor: (66.04% - 78.07%)
Timid LO Alakazam Psychic: (77.01% - 90.37%)
Timid LO Gengar Shadow Ball: (32.89% - 38.77%)
Modest Specs Togekiss Air Slash: (73.80% - 87.17%)
Timid LO Deoxys-S Psycho Boost: (91.98% - 109.09%)!
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+2 Jolly Doryuuzu Earthquake: (68.45% - 81.02%)
+2 Jolly Garchomp Outrage: (80.21% - 94.65%) (similar calcs for terakion's CC, dnite's/mence's outrages at +2, etc.)
+1 Adamant Gyarados Bounce: (90.37% - 107.49%)
Adamant LO Blaziken Hi Jump Kick: (58.56% - 68.98%)
252 Atk Gliscor Acrobat (110 Power): (59.36% - 70.59%)
Short of STAB Psycho Boost, you're not going to 1hko this guy without boosts. His typing lets him lure in and beat a lot of his special counters by hitting them with Payback+Mach Punch while tanking their hits, and checking frailer offensive threats while recovering HP with Drain Punch. He loses hard to Gliscor/Landlos/most other flying-types, but so does roob. ;( This set can clear the way for sweepers that would be checked by fast psychics/Lati@s/etc., like SD Blaziken.
252 HP/4 Atk/252 SpDef
Careful / Guts
Bulk Up
Payback
Drain Punch
Mach Punch
Before you dismiss this set as an inferior Roobushin, this is meant to function differently to Roob. It has a lot of the same counters and can't muscle through any flying types before getting a few bulk ups, but its special and physical bulk pre-setup is what makes it worth using, enabling it to lure in and beat psychics/ghosts who might try to counter it.
With the above EVs this is how much special/physical bulk it has:
Modest Specs Shandera Overheat: (81.02% - 95.45%)
Timid Specs Latios Draco Meteor: (66.04% - 78.07%)
Timid LO Alakazam Psychic: (77.01% - 90.37%)
Timid LO Gengar Shadow Ball: (32.89% - 38.77%)
Modest Specs Togekiss Air Slash: (73.80% - 87.17%)
Timid LO Deoxys-S Psycho Boost: (91.98% - 109.09%)!
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+2 Jolly Doryuuzu Earthquake: (68.45% - 81.02%)
+2 Jolly Garchomp Outrage: (80.21% - 94.65%) (similar calcs for terakion's CC, dnite's/mence's outrages at +2, etc.)
+1 Adamant Gyarados Bounce: (90.37% - 107.49%)
Adamant LO Blaziken Hi Jump Kick: (58.56% - 68.98%)
252 Atk Gliscor Acrobat (110 Power): (59.36% - 70.59%)
Short of STAB Psycho Boost, you're not going to 1hko this guy without boosts. His typing lets him lure in and beat a lot of his special counters by hitting them with Payback+Mach Punch while tanking their hits, and checking frailer offensive threats while recovering HP with Drain Punch. He loses hard to Gliscor/Landlos/most other flying-types, but so does roob. ;( This set can clear the way for sweepers that would be checked by fast psychics/Lati@s/etc., like SD Blaziken.
yesterday i was thinking of a way of making lickilicky a bit useful and that's what i thought:
lickilicky@leftovers
careful nature
252 hp/192 sp.def/60 def
curse
rest
sleep talk
dragon tail
this team with entry hazards support can severely weaken your opponents team and after a few curses lickilicky is a pain in the ass to take down...
lickilicky@leftovers
careful nature
252 hp/192 sp.def/60 def
curse
rest
sleep talk
dragon tail
this team with entry hazards support can severely weaken your opponents team and after a few curses lickilicky is a pain in the ass to take down...
The lickylicky set can also be run be several other pokemon, not just licky himself. But it should work fine so long as you don't run into any substitute users, who will truly ruin your day when dragon tail is your only means for breaking their subs. Speaking of substitute...well, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
Machamp @ leftovers
EVs: 252 HP, 220 SDef, 32 Atk
-Bulk up
-Substitute
Dynamic Punch
-Stone edge/Ice Punch
I've run into machamp utilizing subs and encore before, but this was my first time ever facing off against this. It's....incredibly annoying. The idea is to sub up on anything slower than you. Spikers and SR pokemon in general should do. From there, you dynamic punch for confusion and begin bulking up.
Machamp @ leftovers
EVs: 252 HP, 220 SDef, 32 Atk
-Bulk up
-Substitute
Dynamic Punch
-Stone edge/Ice Punch
I've run into machamp utilizing subs and encore before, but this was my first time ever facing off against this. It's....incredibly annoying. The idea is to sub up on anything slower than you. Spikers and SR pokemon in general should do. From there, you dynamic punch for confusion and begin bulking up.
Bulk-up Sub Machamp seems like too much on just one set. Either run Bulk-up Machamp or Substitute Machamp. There's no need to run both moves on one set, and it just hurts coverage. And to be honest, aside from Dynamic Punch, Roobushin pretty much outclasses Machamp. Roobushin can run a more effective SubPunch bulk up set.
I saw this in the Maoswine thread and thought it was pretty interesting:
MY CHANGES ARE BOLDED
I saw this in the Maoswine thread and thought it was pretty interesting:
MY CHANGES ARE BOLDED
That Mamoswine looks quite cool, I've always liked the big lump of a whatever it is, but never had cause to slot one in on a team. My main concern about the above is the usefulness of White Herb and so many Spe EVs, as with Priority access does the speed drop really matter? Lefties seem more appealing to me at least.
It does look cool, to bad both ice moves and curse are illegal with thick fat...if remember correctly, the event swine was male only.
The problem I see with this is that you're going to get dominated by Breloom. Mamoswine can usually outspeed it with Ice Shard, and without White Herb or speed investment you look to be killed pretty quickly.
Uhhh... Ice Shard OHKOes doesn't it?
(no this is not DW so there is no n00b techniloom)
Articuno
Leftovers
252 HP/240 Def/16 SpD
Calm/Careful
-Toxic/Ice Beam
-Roost
-Sky Drop
-Heal Bell/Ice Beam/Protect
Sky Drop is pretty nice because it gives you a free turn of stalling without the opponent making a move.
Toxic is there so you can get residual damage on the opponent, but if you have Toxic Spikes support then you can use Ice Beam to hit fliers who are immune to Toxic Spikes (and take no damage from Sky Drop).
Roost is obvious.
Heal Bell gets rid of status and also supports the team, Ice Beam can hurt a bit and covers the pokemon immune to Sky Drop, and Protect can stall more and works well with Pressure. Blizzard and Snow Cloak are best on a hail team.
Obviously Rapid Spin is crucial. Donphan and Claydol (Donphan is way better) resist rock moves and are immune to electric. Tentacruel shares an electric weakness but resists fire and steel and can set up Toxic Spikes.
SubRoost Zapdos also could use Sky Drop, Thunderbolt, and obviously Substitute and Roost with a fast and bulky EV spread, but since it's just SubRoost with one move changed, it probably wouldn't fit under "creative," even though it is pretty good.
Leftovers
252 HP/240 Def/16 SpD
Calm/Careful
-Toxic/Ice Beam
-Roost
-Sky Drop
-Heal Bell/Ice Beam/Protect
Sky Drop is pretty nice because it gives you a free turn of stalling without the opponent making a move.
Toxic is there so you can get residual damage on the opponent, but if you have Toxic Spikes support then you can use Ice Beam to hit fliers who are immune to Toxic Spikes (and take no damage from Sky Drop).
Roost is obvious.
Heal Bell gets rid of status and also supports the team, Ice Beam can hurt a bit and covers the pokemon immune to Sky Drop, and Protect can stall more and works well with Pressure. Blizzard and Snow Cloak are best on a hail team.
Obviously Rapid Spin is crucial. Donphan and Claydol (Donphan is way better) resist rock moves and are immune to electric. Tentacruel shares an electric weakness but resists fire and steel and can set up Toxic Spikes.
SubRoost Zapdos also could use Sky Drop, Thunderbolt, and obviously Substitute and Roost with a fast and bulky EV spread, but since it's just SubRoost with one move changed, it probably wouldn't fit under "creative," even though it is pretty good.
I like it a lot, but Zapdos would definitely pull it off better, due to its better typing and not as bad of a SR weakness. I've actually seen Skarmory with Roost, Toxic, Sky Drop, and Whirlwind/BB. It was a pain to take out, simply because it's so hard to hurt it effectively, phazes you, is immune to toxic, and works well physically.
EDIT: MASSIVE OP UPDATE
Another edit:
Toxic Spikes just has terrible distribution. I was looking for a user the other day who was interesting (not Forry or Tentacruel) and didn't suck (not Ariados). I came across this little guy:
@ Evo Stone
Ability: Poison Point
Nature: Relaxed
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
0 Spe IVs
--Spikes
--Toxic Spikes
--Protect / Screech
--Payback / Pursuit / Gyro Ball
This lil' guy has some great defensive stats with an evo stone and access to both spikes and toxic spikes. 40/ 99/ 79 stats aren't bad with an evo stone attached. This makes him a great support pokemon and toxic staller, seeing as direct attacks cause poison and switching in causes poison. Protect can be used with Toxic Spikes for maximum abuse and also for a bit of scouting. From an offensive standpoint, however, this pokemon is retarted. Neither of its STABs are terribly great (its strongest Bug move is Hard Roller, its strongest Poison move is Poison Jab). It needs Payback, which will almost always be boosted due to its low, low 89 speed. Gyro Ball can also be used, but it will not be as reliably strong and has worse offensive typing. It does help stop pokemon like Salamence from setting up and can hit Rock-types like Scarftar hard. Alternatively, Hoiiga can lower the opponent's Defense with Screech. The opponent switches out, not wanting to get hurt with -2 Def, but instead gets nailed with a double power Pursuit at -2. Here are some calcs, but keep in mind, these are worst case scenarios:
Dory's Rock Slide vs Evo Hoiiga: 28.9% - 34.5%
Scarftar's Stone Edge vs Evo Hoiiga: 57.7% - 68.3%
+1 Roobushin's Rock Slide vs Evo Hoiiga: 48.6% - 57.7%
Scarfchomp's Outrage vs Evo Hoiiga: 33.8% - 40.1%
Specs Latios's Draco Meteor vs Evo Hoiiga: 80.5% - 95.1%
------------------------------------------------------
Evo Hoiiga's Pursuit vs -2 Gengar: 81.7% - 96.9%
Evo Hoiiga's Payback vs Gengar: 51.9% - 61.1%
Evo Hoiiga's Pursuit vs -2 Latios: 84.1% - 99.3%
Evo Hoiiga's Payback vs Latios: 52.3% - 62.3%
EDIT: MASSIVE OP UPDATE
Another edit:
Toxic Spikes just has terrible distribution. I was looking for a user the other day who was interesting (not Forry or Tentacruel) and didn't suck (not Ariados). I came across this little guy:
Ability: Poison Point
Nature: Relaxed
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
0 Spe IVs
--Spikes
--Toxic Spikes
--Protect / Screech
--Payback / Pursuit / Gyro Ball
This lil' guy has some great defensive stats with an evo stone and access to both spikes and toxic spikes. 40/ 99/ 79 stats aren't bad with an evo stone attached. This makes him a great support pokemon and toxic staller, seeing as direct attacks cause poison and switching in causes poison. Protect can be used with Toxic Spikes for maximum abuse and also for a bit of scouting. From an offensive standpoint, however, this pokemon is retarted. Neither of its STABs are terribly great (its strongest Bug move is Hard Roller, its strongest Poison move is Poison Jab). It needs Payback, which will almost always be boosted due to its low, low 89 speed. Gyro Ball can also be used, but it will not be as reliably strong and has worse offensive typing. It does help stop pokemon like Salamence from setting up and can hit Rock-types like Scarftar hard. Alternatively, Hoiiga can lower the opponent's Defense with Screech. The opponent switches out, not wanting to get hurt with -2 Def, but instead gets nailed with a double power Pursuit at -2. Here are some calcs, but keep in mind, these are worst case scenarios:
Dory's Rock Slide vs Evo Hoiiga: 28.9% - 34.5%
Scarftar's Stone Edge vs Evo Hoiiga: 57.7% - 68.3%
+1 Roobushin's Rock Slide vs Evo Hoiiga: 48.6% - 57.7%
Scarfchomp's Outrage vs Evo Hoiiga: 33.8% - 40.1%
Specs Latios's Draco Meteor vs Evo Hoiiga: 80.5% - 95.1%
------------------------------------------------------
Evo Hoiiga's Pursuit vs -2 Gengar: 81.7% - 96.9%
Evo Hoiiga's Payback vs Gengar: 51.9% - 61.1%
Evo Hoiiga's Pursuit vs -2 Latios: 84.1% - 99.3%
Evo Hoiiga's Payback vs Latios: 52.3% - 62.3%
The screech pursuit combo has always intrigued me, especially because tyranitar could run it, although I highly doubt it'd be effective.
It would be pretty surprising, that's for sure. That being said, I used Screech alot in 1v1 and it was essentially "Miss: The Move"
Hoiiga sounds like a neat option of Toxic Spikes but the Garbage Bag pokemon (the name escapes me right now) has both Toxic Spikes and Spikes. I have been using it and it's pretty good. With Breakable Armor it can easily get another layer of something before it dies, and if something tries to set up you can always explode.
Screech + Pursuit sounds hilarious though
Screech + Pursuit sounds hilarious though
Hoiiga can do Spikes and Toxic Spikes too - or at least on P-O it can.
Anyways, i've been trying him out, and he's okay. When not being roasted alive by something his bulk is pretty decent, alongside the Screech+Pursuit combo - which is okay, Pursuit is usually fine on its own for KOing weak pokemon that switch out for whatever reason, and Screech is nice for being able to annoy the enemy when you're finished setting up entry hazards, though I would probably replace it with something else.
Personally I still prefer the security of Forretress, with Sturdy, and stronger Paybacks and the like. That being said, i've been using Hoiiga as a lead (stupid idea, better off using him afterwards), and keeping him around to absorb any other Toxic Spikes makes him a nice asset.
Although Hoiiga is bulky...
WTF does it do?
The main reason that one uses Forretress or Tentacruel is that each has powerful attacking options (Gyro Ball, Payback, and EQ, while tenta has Hydro Pump, as well as numerous support moves ala Knock Off) in addition to RAPID SPIN, which is a crucial aspect of their usefullness. The ubiquity of rain only serves to help both immensely and Forry ignores SS altogether.
Also Hoiiga's Screeched Pursuit is weaker than any non Attack-lowering nature Tar's.
WTF does it do?
The main reason that one uses Forretress or Tentacruel is that each has powerful attacking options (Gyro Ball, Payback, and EQ, while tenta has Hydro Pump, as well as numerous support moves ala Knock Off) in addition to RAPID SPIN, which is a crucial aspect of their usefullness. The ubiquity of rain only serves to help both immensely and Forry ignores SS altogether.
Also Hoiiga's Screeched Pursuit is weaker than any non Attack-lowering nature Tar's.
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