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Metagame Cross Evolution
- Thread starter smellslikememe
- Start date
I did the math on Beat Up Sneasel:
According to the Damage Calculator, a max Hp max Def Bold Corsola-G cross evolved with Milotic (135 Base HP 159 Base Def) needs to be hit by a 246 Base Power Dark attack for an unboosted 252 Atk Jolly Sneasel cross evolved with Hitmontop (155 Base Atk) to OHKO without Stealth Rock, without Technician factoring in for each hit.
Factoring in Technician boost on each attack, that decreases it to a Base 164 Base Power minimum, or an average of 28 BP per hit before Technician and STAB.
Beat Up's base power for each individual hit is Base Atk / 10 + 5 for each teammate (rounded down iirc), meaning Sneasel's hit would add up to 20 BP (155 / 10 + 5 = 20.5 -> 20 BP from Sneasel).
That means that, by factoring in the way Beat Up calculates damage, the other five team members has to have a minimum combined Base Atk stat of 1190 in order to knock down Corsola-G (or an average of 238 Base Atk on each), even when factoring STAB and Technician, which is beyond unreasonable.
With Life Orb, you'd need a combined minimum of 127 Base Power after reducing for Technician, meaning the Base Atk of the other members have to add up to around 820 minimum (or around 164 Base Atk average on the rest), which is far more feasible, but still a steep investment to make.
So no, Beat Up Sneasel isn't a be-all answer for Corsola-G, because you still have to invest your entire team around it in order to make it work.
Factoring in Technician boost on each attack, that decreases it to a Base 164 Base Power minimum, or an average of 28 BP per hit before Technician and STAB.
Beat Up's base power for each individual hit is Base Atk / 10 + 5 for each teammate (rounded down iirc), meaning Sneasel's hit would add up to 20 BP (155 / 10 + 5 = 20.5 -> 20 BP from Sneasel).
That means that, by factoring in the way Beat Up calculates damage, the other five team members has to have a minimum combined Base Atk stat of 1190 in order to knock down Corsola-G (or an average of 238 Base Atk on each), even when factoring STAB and Technician, which is beyond unreasonable.
With Life Orb, you'd need a combined minimum of 127 Base Power after reducing for Technician, meaning the Base Atk of the other members have to add up to around 820 minimum (or around 164 Base Atk average on the rest), which is far more feasible, but still a steep investment to make.
So no, Beat Up Sneasel isn't a be-all answer for Corsola-G, because you still have to invest your entire team around it in order to make it work.
Also, Substitute means you only wall out the set if the Corsola doesn't boost enough with CM or are a Normal type, in which case you also have to deal with 5 other teammates that typically won't care too much about it. It's also why I slashed Recover, so you can win the stall war anyway.
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this really only proves milotic is broken
**ahem** Gorsola **ahem**
also a good set I've been using:
Vikavolt (Kadabra) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Psyshock
- Flash Cannon
- Energy Ball
It isn’t mention in the opening post for some reason, but smellslikememe and anaconja are supposed to be running this alongside TimeZone. Feel free to make decisions while TimeZone is absent.
Totally new to this, but I saw it on the front page and it looked pretty cool. Here goes:
Golisopod (Sneasel) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- First Impression
- Beat Up
- Ice Shard
Stats: 105/185/155/75/135/75
Type: Dark/Ice
It's very fat, it hits like a truck, and its STAB is from hell. Only thing I can see being an issue is that it's actually slower than standard Sneasel and its Ice Shard is lacking.
Golisopod (Sneasel) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Emergency Exit
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- First Impression
- Beat Up
- Ice Shard
Stats: 105/185/155/75/135/75
Type: Dark/Ice
It's very fat, it hits like a truck, and its STAB is from hell. Only thing I can see being an issue is that it's actually slower than standard Sneasel and its Ice Shard is lacking.
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Because Wimpod and Golisopod have the same typing, Sneasel would not gain the Water-typing. So you’re safe to run Icicle Crash or Triple Axel over Liquidation.
This is going to come very late as I've been busy for most of this weekend, but I'd like to get some of the community's thoughts on the following quickbans or suspects.
How will we handle:
Strong evolvers?
Frosmoth/Ice Scales?
Other extremely versatile/powerful evolutions?
Obviously, there are plenty of other Pokemon in this metagame in particular that might be worth mentioning, but these are the obvious offenders that are mentioned the most often. Will we go about suspecting individual Pokemon or mass quickban anything "broken"? Which evolvers or evolutions constitute a serious problem, and where do we cut the line between healthy and unhealthy centralization? Much of this is open to discussion, and although I've seen a few opinions in this thread as well as talk on main, I'd prefer to get some more input before I and anaconja come to a decision.
addendum: would like to see how many people want to qb moody since that shits just not fun lmao
How will we handle:
Strong evolvers?
Frosmoth/Ice Scales?
Other extremely versatile/powerful evolutions?
Obviously, there are plenty of other Pokemon in this metagame in particular that might be worth mentioning, but these are the obvious offenders that are mentioned the most often. Will we go about suspecting individual Pokemon or mass quickban anything "broken"? Which evolvers or evolutions constitute a serious problem, and where do we cut the line between healthy and unhealthy centralization? Much of this is open to discussion, and although I've seen a few opinions in this thread as well as talk on main, I'd prefer to get some more input before I and anaconja come to a decision.
addendum: would like to see how many people want to qb moody since that shits just not fun lmao
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alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Sneasel and Scyther need to go immediately. They can run basically anything physical and steamroll opposing teams with little to no effort. Both Scyther and Sneasel have precedent for being banned, and they’re both significantly stronger than in previous generations thanks to Dual Wingbeat and Triple Axel respectively. I’ve run both of them plus Zacian-C on a team with no other Pokémon and netted more wins than I care to admit.This is going to come very late as I've been busy for most of this weekend, but I'd like to get some of the community's thoughts on the following quickbans or suspects.
How will we handle:
Strong evolvers?
Frosmoth/Ice Scales?
Other extremely versatile/powerful evolutions?
Obviously, there are plenty of other Pokemon in this metagame in particular that might be worth mentioning, but these are the obvious offenders that are mentioned the most often. Will we go about suspecting individual Pokemon or mass quickban anything "broken"? Which evolvers or evolutions constitute a serious problem, and where do we cut the line between healthy and unhealthy centralization? Much of this is open to discussion, and although I've seen a few opinions in this thread as well as talk on main, I'd prefer to get some more input before I and anaconja come to a decision.
Galarian Corsola should probably go as well. Its already-respectable bulk of 60/100/100 and useful typing and movepool make it insane when running basically any defensive Pokémon. It’s a similar problem to what Type: Null had, but Type: Null didn’t have Stealth Rock, Will-o’-Wisp and Strength Sap as native moves.
Frosmoth can stay, but Ice Scales needs to go. I believe that Frosmoth would not be broken as an evolution without Ice Scales, but having an Ability that doubles Sp. Def on top of +40 HP and +60 Sp. Def is just dumb. Nearly anything can gain the bulk of a special wall by running Frosmoth, including special attackers that can use that bulk to set up Quiver Dance so they can make use of their +45 Speed and +80 Sp. Atk.
As for evolutions themselves, the first thing we should look at after banning the aforementioned offenders is Chansey. Running it on any vaguely bulky Pokémon gives them +150 HP plus Wish, Teleport and Natural Cure, turning the meta into Build Your Own Pre-DLC OU Clefable™ where everyone can make a unique customized bulky Wish pivot/cleric and no Pokémon on the field die ever.
Gyarados and Milotic as evolutions are great, but there’s no room in anyone’s team for a Gyarados evolution since everyone’s already running Gyarados Scyther because hee hoo 225 Attack Moxie Dragon Dance. As for Milotic, she faces serious competition from Frosmoth, who grants more special bulk thanks to Ice Scales, plus more Speed and Quiver Dance.
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Yea, unlike Frosmoth, Milotic can be broken by offence, either special or physical.
While Frosmoth can be broken with physical, they just switch out to an Avalugg CE.
I have seen people using Gyarados with more than just Scyther.
It gives a lot of bulk, intimidate, and changes typing. So it can be used by sweepers, bulky offence, and defense.
Gyarados can be slapped on almost any mon and be good.
That's why it should be banned.
When it comes to Corsola-G, I just run 2 choiced mons with Trick, just to shut down walls like these, but yea, if I couldn't Trick it, it's very annoying.
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Gyarados (Kubfu) @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Earthquake
Does this work?
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Earthquake
Does this work?
You need to change the ability to fit Gyarados, so Intimidate or Moxie.
Oh ok
How about this?
Gyarados (Kubfu) @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Close Combat
- U-turn
- Earthquake
Yesss
I have a dumb question. Do Pokemon-specific items like Thick Club for Cubone, Light Ball for Pikachu, etc. work in this meta?
Edit: missed it, my bad
Edit: missed it, my bad
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Scyther: Of the big two (Sneasel and Scyther), the mantis is the bigger problem. While both share stellar attack and speed and Swords Dance, Scyther differentiates itself with better defenses paired with options like Roost, Defog, and U-turn, making it a much harder to beat and giving it better natural team support. This means that its best offensive sets (especially Gyarados, Urshifu, and Hitmontop/Toxtricity) are not only extremely powerful but very hard to kill. It's so strong and fast you need to attack it using defensive mons, which can't take it out immediately, so Scyther just heals up again or boosts its stats. If you actually do have a good switch-in it can just pivot away, weakening your check in the process. It has Agility, and if you knock off its HDB it's still immune to Sticky Web, so it's hard to reliably outspeed it even with Choice Scarfers. Unlike Sneasel, it isn't weak to common priority (yes in theory Accelrock exists but that is so limited that it is just not comparable to Mach Punch). And then to top it off, the above options allows it to throw curveballs in the form of defensive or support sets. I've seen an effective Umbreon variant for crying out loud. It's a super badass looking pokemon and I wish I could see it stay, but the unfortunate reality is that it's probably broken.This is going to come very late as I've been busy for most of this weekend, but I'd like to get some of the community's thoughts on the following quickbans or suspects.
How will we handle:
Strong evolvers?
Frosmoth/Ice Scales?
Other extremely versatile/powerful evolutions?
Obviously, there are plenty of other Pokemon in this metagame in particular that might be worth mentioning, but these are the obvious offenders that are mentioned the most often. Will we go about suspecting individual Pokemon or mass quickban anything "broken"? Which evolvers or evolutions constitute a serious problem, and where do we cut the line between healthy and unhealthy centralization? Much of this is open to discussion, and although I've seen a few opinions in this thread as well as talk on main, I'd prefer to get some more input before I and anaconja come to a decision.
addendum: would like to see how many people want to qb moody since that shits just not fun lmao
Sneasel: I actually think that the majority of Sneasel sets are acceptable in the current meta, or even healthy, as it is a great check against many would-be indomitable stall mons. It lacks natural speed boosting options and has enough weaknesses that it isn't hard to take out with a Scarfer, Sticky Web support, or Zacian, it can be chipped down more easily by defensive mons, and then Mach Punch is common enough to be a reasonable counter strategy. There is one notable exception: Sneasel * Hitmontop. This thing's Beat Up and Triple Axle are strong enough that they beat things that should otherwise be able to stand up to it, such as Bulky Waters. The fact that this variant also gets its own Mach Punch from Top means that priority is no longer a reliable option against this version. Unfortunately, banning one variant is not doable, and banning Hitmontop evos would deprive other mons of reasonable Hitmontop sets. It's a shame, but this variant alone may be responsible for a ban. Then again, since this is just one very threatening variation, perhaps it's possible that we can put our collective minds together to design some perfect counters it. Maybe some extra time would be nice.
Corsola-G: Not mentioned above, but if Sneasel gets banned, this does need to go. Right now it's balanced because Sneasel keeps it in check, but even with all the Sneasel it can still put in serious work and is very hard for others to reliably take out. Maybe I'm just uncreative, but I personally depend on Flash Fire Sneasel for defeating Corosla (and even then some anti-Sneasel Corsola sets like Dubwool can ruin the plans). Ban it if Sneasel goes, leave it if it doesn't.
Frosmoth/Ice Scales: Frosmoth without Ice Scales is totally fine. Ice Scales itself may be busted. I've admittedly had less trouble with it than the others since my teams are mostly physical, but I could support an Ice Scales ban.
Chansey/Milotic/Gyarados: The two sea serpents are fine, but Chansey may be a problem. It single handedly allows almost anything to be a Wish Passer. If we lose it, we'll still have other great pokemon that can perform the act so it's not like we'd miss out on the archetype. Again, I don't think it's a problem at the moment, but if Scyther and/or Sneasel leave then that could change.
Moody: Yes please ban it, it's stupid.
On another note, I'll share a team I've been having pretty good success with. It's not perfect, leveling off in the high 1300s on the ladder, that's still good enough to peak at #9 and it's a lot of fun. It's a balance team that makes use of Sticky Webs and pivoting moves.
https://pokepast.es/0992caa0c9ff6b14
Carvanha is almost always my lead. Most of the time you click Flip Turn which, with Technician and 150 Atk, is just about the strongest pivoting move you'll ever get--a stronger Liquidation that gives momentum. Later in the match, I try to get it in safely with Lickitung's slow Flip Turn, and then I repeat the process. In tight matches Carvanha is also my final player as well, for it's also a great revenge killer--Mach Punch is for Sneasel and Aqua Jet is for most other things. I honestly hardly ever use Bite--may try Facade in case it ever gets burned.
Swirlix and Lickitung are my two defensive pokemon, making them the main things I switch in or pivot into. Swirlix is amazing at coming in on powerful Fighting, Bug, and Dark attacks from the likes of Gallade, Scyther, and Urshifu variants, making it a great partner to Sneasel, who hates the first two. After tempering the opponent with Intimidate, it can easily set Sticky Webs or Heal Bell its teammates. Taunt stops stall or runaway sweeping attempts (though it's slow so the opponent often gets one status move it).
Lickitung is an amazing Wish Passer that does respectable damage and spread burns with Scald. Sneasel, Zacian, and Swirlix are especially appreciative of the Wishes. Carvanha and Magneton--the more hit-and-go mons--love that Lickitung's slow Flip Turn allows them to get in safely to do pivoting of their own. Licktitung is slow enough that it is still outsped by most mons even with Sticky Webs up.
Zacian-C has it all--great natural speed, sky-high attack, and good defense--making it the offensive mon that is easiest to switch in and the one who is most capable of committing a sweep if webs aren't up. Substitute is to stop it from being complete Will-o-Wisp/Strength Sap bait to Corsola, but even Zacian isn't strong enough to break it behind the sub, so once it's broken it needs to switch to my Corsola destroyer.
Sneasel*Centiskorch is custom-designed to be able to beat the most common Corsola variants. Swords Dance lets its attack outpace the Strength Sap drops, it is immune to Will-o-Wisp, and Fire Lash is a fantastic move for softening Corsola before finishing it with a full-power Knock Off. Remember that it's not immune to Scald burns and that Milotic Corsola's Shadow Balls can still wear it down, and it can be outsped, so the healing, cleric, and web support from Swirlix and Licking are valued to let it reach its full potential.
My special attacker. Like Sneasel, Magneton can be outsped (even more easily) and like Carvanha, it is frail, so Magneton really loves the web support. But once that's set up and it's gotten in safely, Magneton is a beast. Accurate Sleep Powder lets it incapacitate most things that it can't OHKO save for Tangela & Ferroseed cross-evos, and it then fires away it's high-powered STAB moves or pivots with Volt Switch.
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I think Meteor Beam is a cool move with like zero good abusers in normal tiers so I've been trying to figure out the best user of it. Carkol almost definitely takes the cake, and I think this is the best set for it:
Butterfree (Carkol) @ Power Herb (Rock / Flying, 90/85/85/125/125/90)
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Meteor Beam
- Hurricane
- Scorching Sands
Carkol/Hydreigon is also decent if you want to stick with Carkol's original typing, but it's pretty exploitable even with Levitate, and I find that Rock/Flying is generally better. Quiver Dance has also been more effective for me than Nasty Plot, since after a Quiver Dance and Meteor Beam you'll be at +2 anyway.
Butterfree (Carkol) @ Power Herb (Rock / Flying, 90/85/85/125/125/90)
Ability: Compound Eyes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Meteor Beam
- Hurricane
- Scorching Sands
Carkol/Hydreigon is also decent if you want to stick with Carkol's original typing, but it's pretty exploitable even with Levitate, and I find that Rock/Flying is generally better. Quiver Dance has also been more effective for me than Nasty Plot, since after a Quiver Dance and Meteor Beam you'll be at +2 anyway.
tbh i think the better DD fighting type would be Gyarados (Mienfoo) with Sub/DD/Drain Punch/Knock Off. Putting 92 HP EVs allow u to tank Seismic Toss with your subs, and there's probably some SDef benchmark to tank Scalds here and there, so you basically break a lot of stall single-handedly (sub to avoid status, heal by drain punching chansey-evos for ludicrous chunks of dmg). with intim and screens you can break offense as well, since a statline of 120/200/74/100/130/66 is actually pretty good for tanking the odd priority move - and you can invest even more since you don't need attack EVs at all. base 200 is nutso,
Hitmonlee(Darumaka) can be really terrifying. Immune to will-o-wisp/burn, sky high attack and belly drum/unburden gives it crazy potential. Against stall especially you just need a turn to bring it in safely and there's not a lot that can be done. Access to knock off and sucker punch allow it to take on corsola and offense respectively (and unburden makes it imposter-proof).
I've found some success running Ninetales-Alola(Porygon) with Aurora veil and teleport but I'm sure there are other ways to make it work. Works really well if you just hard swap into most corsola too, provided they don't toxic you on the switch.
I've found some success running Ninetales-Alola(Porygon) with Aurora veil and teleport but I'm sure there are other ways to make it work. Works really well if you just hard swap into most corsola too, provided they don't toxic you on the switch.
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Hello everyone! After scrutiny and discussion of the current state of the Isle of Armor metagame, anaconja and I have come to a decision about the first in what is likely to be a series of quickbans or suspects. After taking player opinion into account and discussing our plan of action, the Cross Evolution council will be addressing some of the issues that have been brought up both in this thread and on sim. Unfortunately, due to budgeting issues regarding this announcement, all infographics have been done in MSPaint.
The first of these quickbans will be Chansey as a donor/evolution. With a staggering 150 HP and 40 SpD bonus as well as direct access to WishPort, Chansey as an evolution allows practically any Pokemon to become the ultimate team support. It's not limited to that role either - in a similar vein to Clefable in the current OU metagame, Chansey evolutions can easily absorb status, set Stealth Rocks, act as a cleric, easily threaten and spread status, and is probably the best bulky pivot in the metagame at the moment. Although Chansey evolutions are inherently somewhat passive and generally have few options to directly pressure an opposing Pokemon and lack a defense bonus, those drawbacks are nearly fully mitigated with its access to Teleport and the absurd amount of HP provided. In general, Chansey lacks opportunity cost, is extremely splashable, and can fit into virtually any team. For these reasons, the Cross Evolution council has decided to quickban Chansey as an evolution.
The second quickban is something that was agreed upon very quickly, and seems to have a fairly high amount of agreement among the community as well; Ice Scales turns any Frosmoth inheritor into a stupidly bulky special wall that can easily set up on nearly any Special attacker in the metagame as well as passive Pokemon such as Wailmer or Tangela. It isn't a slouch defensively, either - 40/35/60 defenses with Ice Scales turns practically any Pokemon with reliable recovery into a nearly unbreakable Special wall with Special bulk rivaling that of fully invested Eviolite Chansey. With its access to U-Turn, Dual Screens, and Defog, it can almost always switch in on any Special Attack while still providing team support. Although it certainly struggles with Physical attacks, the extreme splashability of any of its sets goes a step beyond invalidating Special attackers - it actively punishes even using them. Due to the aforementioned invalidation and punishing of Special Attackers, its sole abuser's far-above-average stat bonuses, as well as a consensus within the community, the Cross Evolution council has decided to quickban Ice Scales as well.
Finally, this one shouldn't take too much explanation. Moody has been banned by Smogon in OU for several straight generations. Through minimizing "player skill" and reducing many interactions to what equates to a dice roll, along with a newfound sense of accessibility and power creep due to the nature of CE, the Cross Evolution Council deems Moody uncompetitive, and as such Moody is now quickbanned from Cross Evolution.
That just about wraps up this round of quickbans. For a tl;dr:
- Chansey as an evolution is now quickbanned
- Ice Scales is now quickbanned
- Moody is now quickbanned
Note that Chansey as a base Pokemon is still permitted, and using Frosmoth, Glalie, or Octillery as evolutions is as well.
Keep in mind that as the metagame develops through the suspect and ban process, which I assure you will be happening within the next few weeks, any of these quickbans are subject to scrutiny by the community, and are by no means permanent in the case that an opposing consensus is reached. For now, keep up the laddering, as the feedback is all extremely helpful! Next up we will hopefully be looking at the current powerhouses of the metagame - Sneasel, Scyther, Corsola-Galar and Chansey as base Pokemon.
Tagging The Immortal to implement these changes, and thanks in advance!
Edit: thank you Kris!
The first of these quickbans will be Chansey as a donor/evolution. With a staggering 150 HP and 40 SpD bonus as well as direct access to WishPort, Chansey as an evolution allows practically any Pokemon to become the ultimate team support. It's not limited to that role either - in a similar vein to Clefable in the current OU metagame, Chansey evolutions can easily absorb status, set Stealth Rocks, act as a cleric, easily threaten and spread status, and is probably the best bulky pivot in the metagame at the moment. Although Chansey evolutions are inherently somewhat passive and generally have few options to directly pressure an opposing Pokemon and lack a defense bonus, those drawbacks are nearly fully mitigated with its access to Teleport and the absurd amount of HP provided. In general, Chansey lacks opportunity cost, is extremely splashable, and can fit into virtually any team. For these reasons, the Cross Evolution council has decided to quickban Chansey as an evolution.
The second quickban is something that was agreed upon very quickly, and seems to have a fairly high amount of agreement among the community as well; Ice Scales turns any Frosmoth inheritor into a stupidly bulky special wall that can easily set up on nearly any Special attacker in the metagame as well as passive Pokemon such as Wailmer or Tangela. It isn't a slouch defensively, either - 40/35/60 defenses with Ice Scales turns practically any Pokemon with reliable recovery into a nearly unbreakable Special wall with Special bulk rivaling that of fully invested Eviolite Chansey. With its access to U-Turn, Dual Screens, and Defog, it can almost always switch in on any Special Attack while still providing team support. Although it certainly struggles with Physical attacks, the extreme splashability of any of its sets goes a step beyond invalidating Special attackers - it actively punishes even using them. Due to the aforementioned invalidation and punishing of Special Attackers, its sole abuser's far-above-average stat bonuses, as well as a consensus within the community, the Cross Evolution council has decided to quickban Ice Scales as well.
Finally, this one shouldn't take too much explanation. Moody has been banned by Smogon in OU for several straight generations. Through minimizing "player skill" and reducing many interactions to what equates to a dice roll, along with a newfound sense of accessibility and power creep due to the nature of CE, the Cross Evolution Council deems Moody uncompetitive, and as such Moody is now quickbanned from Cross Evolution.
That just about wraps up this round of quickbans. For a tl;dr:
- Chansey as an evolution is now quickbanned
- Ice Scales is now quickbanned
- Moody is now quickbanned
Note that Chansey as a base Pokemon is still permitted, and using Frosmoth, Glalie, or Octillery as evolutions is as well.
Keep in mind that as the metagame develops through the suspect and ban process, which I assure you will be happening within the next few weeks, any of these quickbans are subject to scrutiny by the community, and are by no means permanent in the case that an opposing consensus is reached. For now, keep up the laddering, as the feedback is all extremely helpful! Next up we will hopefully be looking at the current powerhouses of the metagame - Sneasel, Scyther, Corsola-Galar and Chansey as base Pokemon.
Tagging The Immortal to implement these changes, and thanks in advance!
Edit: thank you Kris!
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I've got a well-tested team for you all, with some great ideas and options. With how badly OMs tend to be nerfed, i guess all of these will be banned eventually. But i personally don't find a problem with the meta, as it is. Everything is busted and that keeps it pretty balanced in the end, as no one strategy is superior. I've enjoyed it a lot and there's plenty of variation, even with the regular mons. Not every scyther or sneasel is the same and i haven't found a set that i couldn't find a way to beat.
Anyway, here's the team, there's an explanation below:
Butterfree (Magneton) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Bug Buzz
Scolipede (Rhydon) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Protect
Reuniclus (Chansey) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Seismic Toss
- Teleport
- Wish
- Protect
Milotic (Cubone) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Perish Song
- Recover
- Stealth Rock
Hitmonlee (Sneasel) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Icicle Crash
- Swords Dance
Gallade (Dusclops) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 88 Def / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Shadow Sneak
Explanations:
Magneton - Electric and flying typing. The special wallbreaker. Hit a few hurricanes and there's nothing that can stop you. With Specs, you're hitting 772 Special attack, with virtually no resistances, other than ground types for thunderbolt. Speed hits 319, modest, which is all you need. There's a tonne of defensive/stall mons that can't take a hit from this, so it's basically a free kill whenever you get it in.
Chansey: I hate to use stall, but i found this to be fair in a meta where base stats can regularly surpass 150. The hp stat is actually bugged and you don't get the full stats. The game limits you to 714 hp (Blissey/highest stat in the game), when you should be roughly 800hp. But that doesn't; matter, as you essentially still get an eviolite chansey, with leftovers and regenerator. Teleport, regen Chansey is just a great pivot to beat opposing stall, and come back in with a fresh sweeper, or wall any mon that doesn't have set up, or a ridiculous attack stat.
Sneasel: This is my lead. Maybe it's not as good as Hitmontop Sneasel, but it hits much harder (Better stats) and beats a tonne of other leads, unburden giving you the surprise outspeed against speed boosters. The stats end up at a massive 504 attack and 433 Speed, which speaks for itself. If your opponent didn't bring priority, they might just lose turn 1.
Rhydon: A monster in this meta, if you find the right sets for it. I think a defensive, water absorb set might turn up eventually. With this set it hits 493 Attack and 309 speed, one of the best sweepers I've found. As you might tell from the wide lens, stone edge misses are its only flaw. With such a massive attack stat, enough bulk to get a swords dance off (Basically just normal rhydon bulk) and speed boosting, all you really need is eq and stone edge to break most teams.
Cubone: Milotic is a ridiculous evolution buff and is a banworthy option due to the bonuses it provides. But i thought i'd do it a little differently to everyone else and use it for perish trapping instead of normal stall. If you can hit the initial whirlpool, this guy is amazing for killing opposing stall. You might also replace Stealth rocks for an actual attack, so that this thing can't be ignored by ghost types so easily. If you want evidence of how stupidly broken milotic is, here's the stats: 453 hp, 516 defense (Flameorb), 372 Spdef. Reliable recovery. And this is on a cubone....
Dusclops: Fighting and Ghost typing. You won't believe how many people will hit you with a dark type move... Justified is finally worthwhile. This thing hits 460 attack, with respectable +300 defenses. The speed is to counter Corsola and bulky ghost sets that try to will-o wisp/strength sap. But after the ban of frosmoth, i guess it can be changed back. This is one of my favourite mons and it beats down sneasels.
As a bonus I'll mention another busted pokemon.
Tangela with either Frosmoth or Volcarona. One turn of set up and its over. Volcarona version is for speed/big hits/fire attacks, no boosts neccessary. But the Frosmoth version is the bulky one, go full defense, there's not much that can stop you setting up and giga draining all your hp back.
Another bonus tech, that i pair with set up is Illusion/Zoroark, which is hella fun. I used this set, as Tangela attracts toxic/stall and this demolishes those mons:
Zoroark (Pawniard) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
This is essentially a regular Bisharp stat wise, if Bisharp had base 100 speed, access to turn and illusion.
I think Illusion has a tonne of potential, as unlike Zoroark in other metas, the preview won't give away your strategy. 40+ to Att, SPA and Speed. Access to swords dance and nasty plot or turn. It could fit onto nearly any team or pokemon and change the game if played right. Hoping to see more of this mon.
Overall, now that icy scales is banned. The only things I think should be considered for a ban are Milotic, as an evolution and scyther, as a base pokemon.
These two things are the most prominent problems and give the most ridiculous buffs, with the least amount of weaknesses and best versatility. Sneasel is usually too fragile and predictable, with only the hitmontop version being truly difficult to counter. But i suppose that makes it banworthy too. Chansey with an eviolite is basically just as good as every other version of chansey base in this meta. My version is the best one I've used/versed so far, perhaps other people have found different, more powerful sets, but i have not any problem with chansey as a base. Gyarados gives a great milotic level buff, but the reliable recovery makes all the difference for milotic and flying typing is a disadvantage to most pokemon, as it generally provides a weakness with no good attack (Bounce?) to abuse the new typing. The key difference between these two for me, is speed (The only stat not boosted by these evos). Milotic doesn't need speed, it has recovery and defences. Gyarados needs speed in order to reach its potential. Besides Scyther and Sneasel, there's not many pokemon with acceptable base Spd stats, and this forces people to either run scarf or DD on most mons.
Anyway, here's the team, there's an explanation below:
Butterfree (Magneton) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Bug Buzz
Scolipede (Rhydon) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Protect
Reuniclus (Chansey) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Seismic Toss
- Teleport
- Wish
- Protect
Milotic (Cubone) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Perish Song
- Recover
- Stealth Rock
Hitmonlee (Sneasel) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Icicle Crash
- Swords Dance
Gallade (Dusclops) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 88 Def / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Shadow Sneak
Explanations:
Magneton - Electric and flying typing. The special wallbreaker. Hit a few hurricanes and there's nothing that can stop you. With Specs, you're hitting 772 Special attack, with virtually no resistances, other than ground types for thunderbolt. Speed hits 319, modest, which is all you need. There's a tonne of defensive/stall mons that can't take a hit from this, so it's basically a free kill whenever you get it in.
Chansey: I hate to use stall, but i found this to be fair in a meta where base stats can regularly surpass 150. The hp stat is actually bugged and you don't get the full stats. The game limits you to 714 hp (Blissey/highest stat in the game), when you should be roughly 800hp. But that doesn't; matter, as you essentially still get an eviolite chansey, with leftovers and regenerator. Teleport, regen Chansey is just a great pivot to beat opposing stall, and come back in with a fresh sweeper, or wall any mon that doesn't have set up, or a ridiculous attack stat.
Sneasel: This is my lead. Maybe it's not as good as Hitmontop Sneasel, but it hits much harder (Better stats) and beats a tonne of other leads, unburden giving you the surprise outspeed against speed boosters. The stats end up at a massive 504 attack and 433 Speed, which speaks for itself. If your opponent didn't bring priority, they might just lose turn 1.
Rhydon: A monster in this meta, if you find the right sets for it. I think a defensive, water absorb set might turn up eventually. With this set it hits 493 Attack and 309 speed, one of the best sweepers I've found. As you might tell from the wide lens, stone edge misses are its only flaw. With such a massive attack stat, enough bulk to get a swords dance off (Basically just normal rhydon bulk) and speed boosting, all you really need is eq and stone edge to break most teams.
Cubone: Milotic is a ridiculous evolution buff and is a banworthy option due to the bonuses it provides. But i thought i'd do it a little differently to everyone else and use it for perish trapping instead of normal stall. If you can hit the initial whirlpool, this guy is amazing for killing opposing stall. You might also replace Stealth rocks for an actual attack, so that this thing can't be ignored by ghost types so easily. If you want evidence of how stupidly broken milotic is, here's the stats: 453 hp, 516 defense (Flameorb), 372 Spdef. Reliable recovery. And this is on a cubone....
Dusclops: Fighting and Ghost typing. You won't believe how many people will hit you with a dark type move... Justified is finally worthwhile. This thing hits 460 attack, with respectable +300 defenses. The speed is to counter Corsola and bulky ghost sets that try to will-o wisp/strength sap. But after the ban of frosmoth, i guess it can be changed back. This is one of my favourite mons and it beats down sneasels.
As a bonus I'll mention another busted pokemon.
Tangela with either Frosmoth or Volcarona. One turn of set up and its over. Volcarona version is for speed/big hits/fire attacks, no boosts neccessary. But the Frosmoth version is the bulky one, go full defense, there's not much that can stop you setting up and giga draining all your hp back.
Another bonus tech, that i pair with set up is Illusion/Zoroark, which is hella fun. I used this set, as Tangela attracts toxic/stall and this demolishes those mons:
Zoroark (Pawniard) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
This is essentially a regular Bisharp stat wise, if Bisharp had base 100 speed, access to turn and illusion.
I think Illusion has a tonne of potential, as unlike Zoroark in other metas, the preview won't give away your strategy. 40+ to Att, SPA and Speed. Access to swords dance and nasty plot or turn. It could fit onto nearly any team or pokemon and change the game if played right. Hoping to see more of this mon.
Overall, now that icy scales is banned. The only things I think should be considered for a ban are Milotic, as an evolution and scyther, as a base pokemon.
These two things are the most prominent problems and give the most ridiculous buffs, with the least amount of weaknesses and best versatility. Sneasel is usually too fragile and predictable, with only the hitmontop version being truly difficult to counter. But i suppose that makes it banworthy too. Chansey with an eviolite is basically just as good as every other version of chansey base in this meta. My version is the best one I've used/versed so far, perhaps other people have found different, more powerful sets, but i have not any problem with chansey as a base. Gyarados gives a great milotic level buff, but the reliable recovery makes all the difference for milotic and flying typing is a disadvantage to most pokemon, as it generally provides a weakness with no good attack (Bounce?) to abuse the new typing. The key difference between these two for me, is speed (The only stat not boosted by these evos). Milotic doesn't need speed, it has recovery and defences. Gyarados needs speed in order to reach its potential. Besides Scyther and Sneasel, there's not many pokemon with acceptable base Spd stats, and this forces people to either run scarf or DD on most mons.
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Found a meta I enjoy enough to finally quit lurking and post
I give you; rain. The team ain’t perfect by any means and I’m sure with EVs especially I could be far more optimal, but this is wrecking the ladder right now - doesn’t mean tips aren’t welcome
Barraskewda (Sneasel) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Triple Axel
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
Barraskewda Sneasel under rain breaks 1000 speed even on adamant, Crunch hits nearly everything with the added bonus of a possible defence drop on the switch, chose this over knock off as this mon is functioning as my Scarfer/Revenge Killer. Close Combat smacks as hard as crunch for the few times the opponents main wall is not a Corsola-G Cre
Hydreigon (Magneton) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 212 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunder
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse
quite a simple mom really, rain neuters fire and levitate blocks ground leaving a single exploitable weakness to fighting. Usually forces a switch to Hatterene Chansey which is fodder for nasty plot boosted Flash Cannon, Dark Pulse is exclusively to wallbreak Corsola-G after running Earth Power for 40 matches and clicking it once
Pelipper (Vullaby) (F) @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Toxic
- Roost
- Taunt
rain + deceptively tanky Physwall. Does exactly what you’d expect. Taunt deals with a lot of slow set up mons + opposing walls but watch out for the glut of strange hatterene Crossevos
Araquanid (Scyther) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Liquidation
- U-turn
- Crunch
- Poison Jab
either an amazing cross evo or just more fuel to the ‘Ban Scyther’ brigade, despite no stab you still smack with Liquidation /w Rain + Water Bubble. Too vulnerable to SR but a very useful niche of outspending and KOing opposing Sneasel reliably (or at the very least gaining a free switch from the U T
Gallade (Doublade) @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance
Do you know what else messes with Knock Off Sneasel? This bad boy. Not come across a variant yet that can OHKO an avoid the KO from close combat, and even without STAB shadow sneak off 548 Attack can seriously dent unsuspecting mons, only more scary after a Justified or SD boo
Milotic (Corsola-Galar) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Earth Power
Wincon variant that only usually makes it out when I’ve lost parts of my core, it’s nigh-invincible and does what the set looks like it does
Thoroughly enjoying this meta despite it being a hell of a lot more centralised than I thought it would be given the concept, feels weird not having a Gyarados crevo in here, any tips welcome ofc
I give you; rain. The team ain’t perfect by any means and I’m sure with EVs especially I could be far more optimal, but this is wrecking the ladder right now - doesn’t mean tips aren’t welcome
Barraskewda (Sneasel) @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Triple Axel
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
Barraskewda Sneasel under rain breaks 1000 speed even on adamant, Crunch hits nearly everything with the added bonus of a possible defence drop on the switch, chose this over knock off as this mon is functioning as my Scarfer/Revenge Killer. Close Combat smacks as hard as crunch for the few times the opponents main wall is not a Corsola-G Cre
Hydreigon (Magneton) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 212 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Thunder
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse
quite a simple mom really, rain neuters fire and levitate blocks ground leaving a single exploitable weakness to fighting. Usually forces a switch to Hatterene Chansey which is fodder for nasty plot boosted Flash Cannon, Dark Pulse is exclusively to wallbreak Corsola-G after running Earth Power for 40 matches and clicking it once
Pelipper (Vullaby) (F) @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Toxic
- Roost
- Taunt
rain + deceptively tanky Physwall. Does exactly what you’d expect. Taunt deals with a lot of slow set up mons + opposing walls but watch out for the glut of strange hatterene Crossevos
Araquanid (Scyther) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Liquidation
- U-turn
- Crunch
- Poison Jab
either an amazing cross evo or just more fuel to the ‘Ban Scyther’ brigade, despite no stab you still smack with Liquidation /w Rain + Water Bubble. Too vulnerable to SR but a very useful niche of outspending and KOing opposing Sneasel reliably (or at the very least gaining a free switch from the U T
Gallade (Doublade) @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance
Do you know what else messes with Knock Off Sneasel? This bad boy. Not come across a variant yet that can OHKO an avoid the KO from close combat, and even without STAB shadow sneak off 548 Attack can seriously dent unsuspecting mons, only more scary after a Justified or SD boo
Milotic (Corsola-Galar) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball
- Earth Power
Wincon variant that only usually makes it out when I’ve lost parts of my core, it’s nigh-invincible and does what the set looks like it does
Thoroughly enjoying this meta despite it being a hell of a lot more centralised than I thought it would be given the concept, feels weird not having a Gyarados crevo in here, any tips welcome ofc
Yeah that makes sense.