Deoxys E Discussion

[zxn666]

no centralization required for Deoxys-s, it simply does not have the stats to pull off efficient killing

most teams have a good enough counter for it anyways, like i said, priority moves own it and Spiriomb (Which i personally believe is one of the best walls ever) absolutly eats it alive.

most OU teams have a good general counter for attackers (I'm talking bulky waters/ghosts, and maybe the odd steel type that functions as b0th physical and special wall, or Bronzong) and that is all you need to beat Deoxys-s.

Good counters that people use commonly:
Bronzong(Gyro Ball=death)
Metagross(Pursuit and resistance/neutrality to most attacks, bullet punch)
Spiritomb(Pursuit, sucker punch, immunity to its STAB and Superpower)
Jirachi(U-turn hurts a lot, can also throw random thunder waves, or can thunder in the rain for paralysis)
Cressalia(resistance to STAB and superpower, can thunder wave or wear Deoxys down with stalling)
the list goes onwards, a good defensive pokemon that can take both a physical and a special hit are your best bets against this guy, he only got speed, not power.

 

[IggyBot]

Any Deoxys that has extreme speed is dumb. It doesnt do much, and its fast enough anyway. Its wasting one of its precious move slots. It also opens itself up to way more counters by running a normal move. instead of something with more SEs

This post is retarded. Extremespeed has proved to be a valuable move on one of my Deoxys because it goes first against priority moves. Several times you'll find yourself stalled down to low HP by your own life orb, and then people rely on priority attacks (or Sucker Punch) to KO you. Extremespeed goes before any other priority attack (unless it's a Choice Scarf Weavile with Ice Shard) and will do decent damage if you're running attack EV's. Extremespeed also causes Sucker Punch to fail instantly, so you take out Dugtrio while it does nothing, assuming it Sucker Punches.

Also, I have to say that right now arguing in a topic will do nothing because of the simple fact that Deoxys-E looks bad on paper, and that is what most people are basing there arguments off of. 50/95/90/95/90/180 base stats look bad, and that is what a lot of the argument here is. Stats aren't everything. Look at Breloom for example. 60/130/80/60/60/70 base stats. Doesn't that look horrible on paper as well? Sure, Breloom has a nice attack stat. Quite frankly, everything else is shit. Yet Breloom is still OU and rips through tons of OU teams. I'll bet that some of the people that have posted opinions on this topic havn't even used or faced Deoxys-E in a normal OU enviorment yet.

 

[zxn666]

Extremespeed has proved to be a valuable move on one of my Deoxys because it goes first against priority moves. Several times you'll find yourself stalled down to low HP by your own life orb, and then people rely on priority attacks (or Sucker Punch) to KO you.

Spiritomb defeats the purpose of extremespeed due to immunity, and so does Dusknoir.

Dusknoir makes a good counter for Deoxys-s as well, by the way

 

[footballfanatic]

This post is retarded. Extremespeed has proved to be a valuable move on one of my Deoxys because it goes first against priority moves. Several times you'll find yourself stalled down to low HP by your own life orb, and then people rely on priority attacks (or Sucker Punch) to KO you. Extremespeed goes before any other priority attack (unless it's a Choice Scarf Weavile with Ice Shard) and will do decent damage if you're running attack EV's. Extremespeed also causes Sucker Punch to fail instantly, so you take out Dugtrio while it does nothing, assuming it Sucker Punches.

Also, I have to say that right now arguing in a topic will do nothing because of the simple fact that Deoxys-E looks bad on paper, and that is what most people are basing there arguments off of. 50/95/90/95/90/180 base stats look bad, and that is what a lot of the argument here is. Stats aren't everything. Look at Breloom for example. 60/130/80/60/60/70 base stats. Doesn't that look horrible on paper as well? Sure, Breloom has a nice attack stat. Quite frankly, everything else is shit. Yet Breloom is still OU and rips through tons of OU teams. I'll bet that some of the people that have posted opinions on this topic havn't even used or faced Deoxys-E in a normal OU enviorment yet.

Wow, that's such a dumb comparison.

130 Base Attack is one of the highest in the game, and Breloom has a 10x better ability, along with being 1 of 2 pokes that gets a 100% sleep move(NFE excluded). Add in the fact that it has a 225 BP move(Higher than Psycho Cut, but without the -2 drop) and you can see why it's so good. Psychic is a terribly attacking type, while Fighting is one of, if not the, best.

Deoxys' speed is its only good stat, and I'm pushing it a bit when I say the rest of its stats are mediocre.

I can't even believe how retarded that was.

 

[Opterown]

Focus Punch also has negative priority and its drawback is quite bad. Psycho Boost, is, admittedly, a back attacking type, but in all other aspects it's identical to Draco Meteor, voted as the most threatening attack in OU, IIRC.
Anyways, note 180>130.

 

[Namtar]

along with being 1 of 2 pokes that gets a 100% sleep move(NFE excluded).

One of three.

Focus Punch also has negative priority and its drawback is quite bad. Psycho Boost, is, admittedly, a back attacking type, but in all other aspects it's identical to Draco Meteor, voted as the most threatening attack in OU, IIRC.
Anyways, note 180>130.

130>95.

 

[Instinctive]

Why has nobody mentioned its walling capabilities?


Deoxys-e @ Leftovers
Jolly
Pressure
252 Spd/128 SDed/128 Def

Night Shade or SToss (i run Night Shade)
Substitute
Cosmic Power
Recover

This set works very well, and you can even go into a PP stall mode with Sub and Pressure, and a reliable recovery move in...recover.
When you send it out, people expect SPower/Ice Beam/TBolt/filler and switch out the poke that that set would hit x4, letting you set up a Sub or Cosmic Power. And with 180 speed, and the set i put in, you outspeed Scarfchomp and are able to setup some Subs and CPs.

Unfortunately, you get walled pretty easily by anything else with SToss, Celebi, and either normal or ghost types...

 

[footballfanatic]

Focus Punch also has negative priority and its drawback is quite bad. Psycho Boost, is, admittedly, a back attacking type, but in all other aspects it's identical to Draco Meteor, voted as the most threatening attack in OU, IIRC.
Anyways, note 180>130.

Good Lord, another retarded statement.

The only thing speed helps you do is take out sweepers.(And I wouldn't say Deoxys is amazing at taking out sweepers...if it can't hit SE, it won't be a OHKO). Attacking power is much more important. After Scarfchomp, it's a huge "dead zone" of speed. Once you're past 455...it doesn't matter if you have 600 base speed, it's not going to make a difference. Attack on the other hand, has no "dead zone". Higher = better. And considering Breloom is only behind the likes of T-tar, Salamence, Slaking, Regigigas, Metagross, and Rhyperior. 2 Of those get massively limited by their terrible abilities. The problem with Deoxys is, it doesn't matter if you go first, because you won't be able to OHKO unless they have prior damage, or you hit them SE. And with Deoxys-e being among the ranks of Lileep and Corsola in terms of defensive prowess, it's not going to be taking any hits from the thing it failed to kill.

But you're right, 180>130.

Edit: Oh yes Namtar, I completely forgot about Smeargle.

 

[kamikaen]

Spiritomb defeats the purpose of extremespeed due to immunity, and so does Dusknoir.

Dusknoir makes a good counter for Deoxys-s as well, by the way

The first set on the Dusknoir analysis (Careful, 252 Hp, 180 Sd) vs. the first set on the Deoxys-S analysis, using Shadow Ball: 49.66% - 58.50% The Deoxys-E set might be taken "out of context", since it was meant for ubers, but I'm sure that it'll keep it's special attacking orientation in standard, because it's movepool is largely special. So, Dusknoir isn't really a counter. It has Shadow Sneak, yes, but if Deoxys switches out on it, you're out of your Deoxys-S counter, since it definitely can't switch in again and hope to live.

Standard Careful Spiritomb vs. the same Deoxys-S, this time using Ice Beam: 35.20% - 41.45% So Spiritomb does take less than Dusknoir, but this is still a 3HKO on a Pokemon without a reliable recovery move (and lower Hp). It does force Deoxys to make a tough decision (between getting Sucker Punched, or getting Pursuited). But Sucker/pursuit only have a very small chance of OHKO: 86.31% - 101.66%. That's with 144 attack EVs. Shadow Sneak isn't a good option for countering it, since it's power is half of Sucker Punch's power.

39.87% - 46.98%- That's the same Deoxys-S set using Grass Knot vs. Vaporeon, one of zxn666's recommended "bulky water" counters. This is assuming that Grass Knot is at 60 base power vs. Vaporeon, I forget what it is. :[ Vaporeon has Wish, but no "instant" recovery move (unless it wants to give up one of it's many useful options for Protect, which Deoxys-S can predict the second time 'round and switch out on), so this is sufficient to say that Vaporeon is not an awesome counter.
62.72% - 73.71%- A Deoxys with Tbolt > Grass Knot vs. the same Vaporeon.
54.36% - 63.90% - That's Vaporeon's best effort (Surf, with 68 Sa EVs) against Deoxys-S.
Damage calcs vs. Swampert (another bulky water "counter") would be a joke, it OHKOs even without an item. However, Here's standard Swampert vs. Deoxys-S.

Hydro Pump, 56 Sa EVs: 55.19% - 65.15%
Earthquake: 53.53% - 63.07%

So it's defenses aren't that bad. It's not like tanks are switching in and getting OHKOs, and it's not one of those, "Add SR, Spikes, and Sandstream damage" cases, DeoS can survie those, too, even coupled with attacks. These are not DeoA's paper defenses, they're similar to Azelf's (Azelf's defenses aren't great, but not too bad...).

So I did "bulky ghosts", and two "bulky waters". I'll do more if you want, this discussion needs some calcs.

It is limited with only four moveslots, but there's the risk it'll carry the move, so you can't switch your Dusknoir into DeoS with too much confidence, without testing a lot (making that "counter" Poke not as much of a counter any more). So, Blissey might counter some sets, but she can't be too careful, or Calm, since she needs her Def against this guy. :P Even when you're prepared, countering it would be pretty risky business.

 

[IggyBot]

Wow, that's such a dumb comparison.

130 Base Attack is one of the highest in the game, and Breloom has a 10x better ability, along with being 1 of 2 pokes that gets a 100% sleep move(NFE excluded). Add in the fact that it has a 225 BP move(Higher than Psycho Cut, but without the -2 drop) and you can see why it's so good. Psychic is a terribly attacking type, while Fighting is one of, if not the, best.

Deoxys' speed is its only good stat, and I'm pushing it a bit when I say the rest of its stats are mediocre.

I can't even believe how retarded that was.

How is that a bad comparison? Deoxys-E has more than twice as much speed as Breloom, better defenses, better SpAtk, a better movepool, and 10 less base HP. Breloom's attack stat is the only thing that stands out about it. I'm not directly comparing Breloom and Deoxys-E, I'm simply stating that stat-wise niether of them look terrific. Why don't you actually think about that before attacking me?

I also have to ask this question football: Have you actually used Deoxys-E yet?

Spiritomb defeats the purpose of extremespeed due to immunity, and so does Dusknoir.

Dusknoir makes a good counter for Deoxys-s as well, by the way

Yes, those are 2 examples in which Extremespeed would not work. But in the case of Dugtrio, Absol, Weavile, Lucario, Mamoswine, Hitmontop, ect, Extremespeed would hit them before they hit you. Just because an attack is stopped by a certain foe doesn't mean you shouldn't run it.

 

[footballfanatic]

Yes, I have used Deoxys-e.

2 battles my opponent knew about it before hand, and 2 battles my opponent didn't.(1 battle, my opponent also used Deoxys, which I had no trouble with)

I honestly would have much rather have had Infernape in those battles. In the most recent battle, Superpower did a little more than half to a Typhlosion, and even with the low BP Eruption KO'd me(I was at around 169 HP, from previous Life Orb'd attacks).

I know this isn't decisive at all, but from what I've used, I could care less if Deoxys is unbanned now...I won't use it.

 

[IggyBot]

So you've used Deoxys-E for a grand total of 4 battles? Yep, it seems like you definatly have the experience needed to carry out an argument like this then.

You're simply playing Theorymon for the most part and basing the rest off of what little experience you have with Deoxys-E. This topic is no place for that.

 

[AJC]

i'm amazed at how split people are..on this the poll is so close on both sides its almost 50/50

personally i feel that Deoxys-S needs to have a LONG testing session not something that lasts a few weeks something more like a month or two because nothing really changes in a few weeks but shit does tend to happen in month long spans

 

[Mekkah]

ATTN: footballfanatic, stop calling everything that goes against your ways of thinking "dumb". I agree Stark Mountain's average IQ is horrible but that doesn't mean you can insult anyone with a different perspective. Debate with reason or don't debate at all.

 

[Colonel M]

Well, I think he's fine for OU. He seriously is limited by the number of moves he can have (4, obviously), and the fact that 95 Attack and Special Attack won't do much.

I kind of compare him similair to a Starmie, defensive-wise. 50 / 90 / 90 Defenses aren't extremely horrible. Compare it to 60 / 85 / 85 for Starmie, Deoxys-S wins in terms of defense while Starmie wins in HP. I know he can't switch into many attacks, however he can still survive some weaker hits. Bronzong suprisingly does 78 - 92.95% with Gyro Ball and 152 Attack EVs on 0/0 neutral Deoxys-S. So, he can take a hit to some extreme, even if you want to attempt to use Screens to help him.

You must understand a couple of things about Deoxys-S before you go around judging things. He doesn't need an extreme amount of EVs or even a positive nature to outspeed some threats. Taken straight from Dragontamer:

With 0 EVs and neutral nature, he bearly outspeeds the base 130 squad (394 speed vs 396 speed from 0 EVs).

And then I, myself checked some things as far as some Choice Scarfers:

As far as some other Choice Scarf users that are common, 32 Speed EVs beat ScarfCross, 204 Speed EVs beat BulkyGyara even after 2 Dragon Dances, and 236 Speed EVs beat ScarfChomp.

Gengar only looses by 2 points, so if people use a 52 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe spread, Gengar has won in Speed.

But don't be fooled by him being outsped by some other Choice Scarfers. Remember, you will rarely, RARELY see anything past Gengar with a Choice Scarf, with the exception of ScarfDugtrio. You're very safe to use a +Attack or +Special Attack nature over the +Speed natures. Also factor that without the Attack boost from natures, you'll do even less damage to some things.

Deoxys-S's biggest weakness, in my honest opinion, is that he relies on an item that helps with his attack. Without Life Orb, he isn't being much of a threat. Still, with Life Orb, he is taking 16% each turn from the Sandstorm comibned with Life Orb recoil. Paralysis is probably the one type of status that would be used commonly against Deoxys-S, as without the Speed he doesn't seem to do much. Using a +Speed nature will also give disadvantages, as you lose the power that you need.

Counter-wise, Bronzong, Jirachi, and Metagross are some that are commonly used in teams that can take most hits from Deoxys-S. Jirachi can set up a Screen or just use Thunder to either block Deoxys-S's attacks or have a good chance of crippling Deoxys-S. Bronzong has Trick Room, and if that isn't a counter, I don't know what is. Metagross can come in and could use Pursuit while Deoxys-S could attempt to escape. Sometimes Agiligross can outspeed Deoxys-S depending on the Speed investment that he has. Spiritomb and Dusknoir are pretty nasty to Deoxys-S. Both carry Shadow Sneak for STAB, and Spiritomb could do things unimaginable like using STAB Pursuit or STAB Sucker Punch. Dugtrio can use Sucker Punch while Deoxys-S is trapped or use Night Slash if Dugtrio is a Choice Scarf user, and comes in decently on Thunderbolt.

Cresselia can take on most of Deoxys-S's sets if he lacks Shadow Ball.

Those are a couple of examples for counters. I don't see him as exactly "game-breaking", and he has many uses other than offense. He's decent as a supporter, using screens or even Spiking the opponent's field. He's the fastest Taunter in the game. He can revenge-kill a Gyarados even after accomplishing TWO Dragon Dances, and if that isn't great, I don't know what is then. I think Deoxys-S is weak, yet playable enough to be used in OU.

 

[pear]

Why has nobody mentioned its walling capabilities?


Deoxys-e @ Leftovers
Jolly
Pressure
252 Spd/128 SDed/128 Def

Night Shade or SToss (i run Night Shade)
Substitute
Cosmic Power
Recover

This set works very well, and you can even go into a PP stall mode with Sub and Pressure, and a reliable recovery move in...recover.
When you send it out, people expect SPower/Ice Beam/TBolt/filler and switch out the poke that that set would hit x4, letting you set up a Sub or Cosmic Power. And with 180 speed, and the set i put in, you outspeed Scarfchomp and are able to setup some Subs and CPs.

Unfortunately, you get walled pretty easily by anything else with SToss, Celebi, and either normal or ghost types...

Needs more Spikes/Stealth Rock/Ice Beam (with enough Sp.Atk to OHKO ScarfChomp)/doing something useful in general/not getting countered by literally anything with Roar/Whirlwind.

 

[Luck]

personally i feel that Deoxys-S needs to have a LONG testing session not something that lasts a few weeks something more like a month or two because nothing really changes in a few weeks but shit does tend to happen in month long spans

Another post people need to read again

If we test stuff properly this topic would be dead.At the beginning of D/P should allowed all pokemon or every poke 600 pokes and below on the metagame. Then slowly when a poke a proved to unbalanced we remove it.We have clear proof in Celebi and Garchomp that theory don't mean anything,we they are allowed in the game they didn't unbalanced it.They are some many things we don't know because it was never tested properly.Would the Lati@s really dominate especially if darkrai is present?Is Mew really that hard to handle?Should the same counters that Cress beat Deoxy LG?Would people be crying about blissey still if we had special attackers that could put dents in her?

Sure we have a pretty sure idea to the answers to these questions but we idea should have concrete proof.

 

[pajama]

Well I was using my trick room team this afternoon on Shoddy just because I wanted to face some Deoxys' and I encountered 4.

All of them where defeated by my shuppet (yes shuppet) and heatran. The only one that gave me trouble was a stalling version with knock off/sub/psychic and another move I didn't get to see or just forgot.

Apart from that most of them got destroyed by heatran after shuppet set up trick room and knocked off their item (mostly life orb).

Now I know 4 battles are VERY little to really prove anything but I think they do prove that trick room is a (potentially) great deoxys-S counter.

And I think trick room and deoxys-s can have the same "relationship" as magnet pull mgnezone and shed shell skarmory. The more magnezone is being used the more shed shell skarmory's will be used wich will lead to a decrease of magnezones and a comeback of lefties and again and again.

(please correct me if I'm wrong about this)

 

[Deco]

Deoxys-S is fine in OU imo. Or at least that's the impression I've got - I'm not an expert, but that's what I'm thinking after seeing it used against me a couple of times.

Sure, it's a strong Pokemon, but that doesn't make it uber. Garchomp is strong, Tyranitar is strong, Infernape is strong - they can all rape teams in certain situations, but they're counterable. They're top-tier OU, but not uber. The same could be said about Deoxys-S - it's dangerous, like the other Pokemon I named, but it doesn't rival Mewtwo or Arceus.

Also, it's quite unique due to the insane speed but only decent attacking abilities... so it does make a decent addition to the metagame. It doesn't make using something else futile - Darkrai would kick Gengar to BL, Latios would make Specsmence inferior... Deoxys-S doesn't do anything like that.

 

[Stall]

Well I was using my trick room team this afternoon on Shoddy just because I wanted to face some Deoxys' and I encountered 4.

All of them where defeated by my shuppet (yes shuppet) and heatran. The only one that gave me trouble was a stalling version with knock off/sub/psychic and another move I didn't get to see or just forgot.

Apart from that most of them got destroyed by heatran after shuppet set up trick room and knocked off their item (mostly life orb).

Now I know 4 battles are VERY little to really prove anything but I think they do prove that trick room is a (potentially) great deoxys-S counter.

And I think trick room and deoxys-s can have the same "relationship" as magnet pull mgnezone and shed shell skarmory. The more magnezone is being used the more shed shell skarmory's will be used wich will lead to a decrease of magnezones and a comeback of lefties and again and again.

(please correct me if I'm wrong about this)

I'm quite certain that was me. I fought a TR team with Shuppet and Heatran, and my Deoxys-E set is spikes/sub/psychic/knock off.

I firmly believe that Deoxys-E is wasting most of his talents if you're using him as a sweeper.

 

[Daenym]

I've had good and bad battles against it. Once half of my team got swept by Psychoboost and Brick Breaks and I ended up stalling it to death with Sandstorm. Another time I OHKO'd it on the first round.

 

[rkatzam]

I agree, Deoxys-E should be stalling more than sweeping IMO. Comsic Power + Sub is not at all easy to take down. Also, you can make a utility version with Thunderbolt and Spikes, possibly Ice Beam too, to counter DD Gyara and Garchomp, while still threatening to set up Spikes and having a SE hit on Skarmory. Sub also helps scouting for Weavile and other Pursuit users.

 

[superman]

I'm gonna try out the stalling deoxus-E, and I gave up on it being uber when it failed to finish a game by superpowering a Magnezone.

 

[gorm]

I've yet to play a match vs. a good Deo-E ~__~

it's been cool to watch this poll gradually climb towards the side of allowing it in OU.

 

[Rhykune]

I've only versed one person so far who has used Deoxys E, and my Uxie stalled it to death. (It was lacking Shadow Ball) In my opinion it is like a Super Fast Clefable minus Magic Guard because of its unpredictability and balanced (besides speed) stats.