Dexit discussion thread

I do find peculiar however that the partner moves data is present in the games (even including some balance changes).
Maybe they plan to have them return in future titles...
My theory remains they planned to have the Lets Go bonus be the partners but decided against it by the time the moves were balanced.

At the very least can't transfer them to home, since theyre integral to Lets Go
 
My theory remains they planned to have the Lets Go bonus be the partners but decided against it by the time the moves were balanced.

At the very least can't transfer them to home, since theyre integral to Lets Go
You can always make up a clone.
 
I think once the Crown Tundra rolls around we'll be ready for it anyways.

Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the current meta however the only things incoming to shake it up are G Max forms that we know of.

The whole things does make it seem like their balance excuses for Dexit might actually have been true, but surely the same effect could just be achieved with a ban list without having cash grab expansion passes.
 
I think once the Crown Tundra rolls around we'll be ready for it anyways.

Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the current meta however the only things incoming to shake it up are G Max forms that we know of.

The whole things does make it seem like their balance excuses for Dexit might actually have been true, but surely the same effect could just be achieved with a ban list without having cash grab expansion passes.
Well I mean the first year of VGC wouldn't have had at least the legends anyway (others, like garchomp, are more up in the air). Those are usually saved for follow up games and years.

e: And to be clear I think no matter what had happened ,we'd probably have gotten them back. I can' see them holding back on legendary pokemon like this for like 3+ years.
 
It seems that Pokémon Home shows some mons their TM and TR learn set. Data seems temporary and listings might be subject to change.

https://www.serebii.net/swordshield/hometm.shtml



Interesting notes:

- both Raticate variants get Psychic Fangs and Close Combat? ... interesting
- both Nidoqueen and Nidoking get High Horsepower and Body Press, the former is good for both in Doubles while the latter seems a good toy for Queen
- if Wigglytuff, which is also on the list, comes to SwSh then it will possibly become the best Dragapult check in the game
- Poliwrath finally got Liquidation and gets Darkest Lariat, let's clap hands!
- Alakazam gets Stored Power
- Alolan Exeggutor gets Breaking Swipe and Power Whip
- Pinsir and Heracross get High Horsepower, somewhat good for Doubles
- Tauros gets High Horsepower, Megahorn and Close Combat
- Kabutops, Armaldo, Floatzel, Samurott, Carracosta, Alomomola and Bruxish get Liquidation
- Aerodractyl gets Psychic Fangs and... Dragon Dance! Possibly OU if released
- Meganium and Jumpluff get... Pollen Puff? Might work as support for Doubles
- Feraligatr gets Liquidation, Psychic Fangs and Breaking Swipe
- Azumarill gets High Horsepower and Liquidation, yikes!
- Midreavus doesn't get Mystical Fire, but Mismagius does!
- Forretress and Skarmory get Body Press, if Skarmory is in then its rivalry with Corviknight will be fierce
- Granbull, Mightyena and Stoutland get Psychic Fangs, good for screenbreaking at lower tiers
- Dunsparce gets Stored Power.............. well, good... if you get a boost from Ancient Power, that is
- Kingdra gets Breaking Swipe, Liquidation and Hurricane, yikes for the latter if you combine Dynamaxing for Speed boosts plus Swift Swim and 100% Accuracy on Rain after Dynamax is over in Ubers or BattleSpot
- Donphan gets Power Whip, High Horsepower and Body Press
- Miltank and Aggron get High Horsepower and Body Press, with the latter being abusive on Aggron's huge Defense stat
- Raikou gets Aura Sphere and... Scald? What?
- Sceptile gets Breaking Swipe and Dragon Dance
- Swampert gets Liquidation, High Horsepower, Body Press and Darkest Lariat, just wow!
- Breloom gets Close Combat
- Slacking, Regigigas and Archeops are listed here, if they get in then Galarian Weezing might be banned from OU Doubles
- Brace yourselves, Sharpedo is getting Close Combat and Liquidation
- Camerupt gets High Horsepower and Flare Blitz, which means you can now either go physical or mixed with it
- Cradily gets Power Whip
- Walrein and Relicanth get Liquidation and Body Press
- Salamence is going to make a storm with Dynamaxed Hurricanes in Ubers
- Regirock gets Body Press to abuse its 200 base Defense, same for Registeel and its 150 base Defense
- both Latis get Air Slash, Mytical Fire, Breaking Swipe, Dragon Dance, Aura Sphere and Stored Power
- Groudon gets Heat Crash and High Horsepower
- oooooooooohhh.... Fug! :---D
- Luxray gets Psychic Fangs and Play Rough
- Lopunny gets Close Combat, Cosmic Power and Play Rough
- Honchkrow gets Hurricane in case you're all wet to make a full special set out of it
- GARCHOMP DOESN'T GET DRAGON DANCE!!!

- Magnezone gets Body Press
(reminder: magic is not real, as so as Hidden Power)
- Lickilicky gets Body Press
- Electivire gets Darkest Lariat
- Magmortar gets Mythical Fire
- Gliscor gets Power Whip and Psychic Fangs
- Probopass gets Body Press
- Uxie, Azelf and Mesprit get Stored Power
- Dialga gets Breaking Swipe and Body Press
- Heatran gets Body Press, dunno if it will ever replace Hidden Power, but Heatran will keep being a huge dent in OU for sure, if released
- Regigigas gets High Horsepower and Darkest Lariat
- Giratina gets Breaking Swipe
- Cresselia gets Stored Power
- unironically Arceus doesn't get Dragon Dance
- Krookodile gets High Horsepower, Close Combat and Darkest Lariat
- Amoongus gets Pollen Puff, good for healing allies in Doubles after the Spore-fest
- Mienshao gets Close Combat and Blaze Kick
- Bouffalant gets High Horsepower and Close Combat
- Volcarona gets Mystical Fire
- NO Brave Bird for Landorus, for who ever speculated that until now
- Talonflame gets Hurricane if you're looking for special sets and to dab on Rain setters
- Tyrantrum gets Breaking Swipe, High Horsepower, Close Combat and Dragon Dance, what a blast!
- Carbink (and Diancie) get Body Press
- Klefki gets Stored Power, kinda interested if it works well with Prankster Iron Defense or Calm Mind
- Xerneas gets Close Combat, yikes!
- Volcanion gets Body Press and Liquidation
- all Lycamobile Forms get Play Rough, Psychic Fangs and Close Combat
- Comfey gets Stored Power and Pollen Puff, probably the best Pollen Puff support in Doubles due to Triage priority, Singles-wise Stored Power seems to be a solid Hidden Power Psychic successor
- all Tapus get Stored Power and Play Rough
- Tapu Koko also gets Close Combat
- Tapu Bulu and Buzzwole get Close Combat, High Horsepower and Darkest Lariat
- Magearna gets Stored Power
- Stakataka gets Heavy Slam, Heat Crash, High Horsepower and Body Press
- Blacephalon gets Mystical Fire
 
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I counted 323:
-excluded Mythicals (as they will obviously be distributed via events)
-excluded Pokemon that only got Swift and/or Endure
-excluded Pokemon that only got moves that were previously exclusive to events or an evolved stage
-included Zangoose since Seviper got Power Whip

If we take out the Johto and Hoenn starters (stands to reason that they'll slowly add all of the starters via Home like they did with Kanto and Alola) and maybe the UBs (I can see them being added in special Max Raid events separate from the DLC, with the idea being they're "invading" Galar), then that gives us well over 200 but under 300. However, Marketing 101 tells us that they would have advertised this as "over 250" rather than just "over 200."
I took a second pass at it and now I have 326, before excluding mythics, aftrer doing the second & third thing in your list (note: p[ossibly over looked some?), not adding Zangoose
I'm dragging this over to the dexit thread, let's compare notes, here's what I have (segregated by generation, for my dex tracking purposes)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1P-Wyf6o1jqmiT_38gFY1t6mamBJ8ftUjm4q6MeJTnxU/edit?usp=sharing

If I do the same exclusions as you in that second paragraph I get about 290 left over
-----------------

So jsut on the blanket assumption that 326 pokemon do indeed come back this year in DLC (shaky ground, I'm aware, let's just pretend Home is doing a lot of work here), we get 164 pokemon remaining. But I was curious how that'd break down by generation

Remaining pokemon per generation
Gen 1: 5 (Pidgey, Pidgeotto, Pidgeot, Paras, Parasect)
Gen 2: 6 (Unown, Teddiursa, Ursaring, Smeargle, Aipom, Stantler)
Gen 3: 16 (Plusle, Minun, Gulpin, Swalot, Spinda, Cacnea, Cacturne, Zangoose, Castform, Kecleon, Tropius, Chimecho, Clamperl, Huntail, Gorebyss, Luvdisc)
Gen 4: 35 (Turtwig, Grotle, Torterra, Chimchar, Monferno, Infernape, Piplup, Prinplup, Empoleon, Starly, Staravia, Staraptor, Bidoof, Bibarel, Kricketot, Kricketune, Cranidos, Rampardos, Shieldon, Bastiodon, Pachirisu, Buizel, Floatzel, Ambipom, Glameow, Purugly, Chingling, Carnivine, Finneon, Lumineon, Phione, Manaphy, Shaymin, Arceus)
Gen 5: 33 (Snivy, Servine, Serperior, Tepig, Pignite, Emboar, Oshawott, Dewott, Samurott, Patrat, Watchog, Lillipup, Herdier, Stoutland, Pansage, Simisage, Pansear, Simisear, Panpour, Simipour, Blitzle, Zebstrika, Sewaddle, Swadloon, Leavanny, Ducklett, Swanna, Deerling, Sawsbuck, Alomomola, Tynamo, Eelektrik, Eelektross)
Gen 6: 23 (Chespin, Quilladin, Chesnaught, Fennekin, Braixen, Delphox, Froakie, Frogadier, Greninja, Scatterbug, Spewpa, Vivillon, Flabebe, Floette, Florges, Skiddo, Gogoat, Furfrou, Skrelp, Dragalge, Clauncher, Clawitzer, Hoopa)
Gen 7: 10 (Pikipek, Trumbeak, Toucannon, Yungoos, Gumshoos, Crabrawler, Crabominable, Oricorio, Minior, Bruxish)

Worth noting that Unown & Smeargle could, within this theory, still be in. Unown would never learn move tutors and it's feasible we get around the Hidden Power thing with an all new original signature move and Smeargle could just...be in the game, since Sketch means it gets every move but not through TM/TR/Tutor.

Which would be quite an...eclectic...set of pokemon (in terms of both the pokemon themselves and the number of them) for a theoretical "final DLC". I'm sure that selection of Gen 4 pokemon is already getting people breaking out the thinking emojis, but it's kind of interesting how similar the selection of pokemon are across 4-7. Gen 5 in particular is very close to Gen 4
 
I probably accidentally counted a cross-gen family twice when I got my number (329 with Mythicals included and Zangoose excluded; didn't count Deoxys since Nasty Plot was an event move at one point).
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
Aight fuck it I'm bored in class and I don't wanna bring this shit to the unpopular opinions thread, and since this thread hasn't really talked about the playerbase ramifications of dexit for a while now I'm gonna do it by getting extremely meta for a sec

One of the things I've been thinking about a lot in the aftermath of the controversy and SWSH's launch has been the legacy of Dexit. How will it be remembered? Will anyone still care 3-5 years down the road? How will being among the last few games pre-Dexit affect perceptions of titles like the Alola games? The 2nd question in particular is one I have contemplated, and after discussing this with a few people on different online hangouts I've come to an interesting conclusion about it. Yes, people will still care in the future, but not in the way some of you might think.

Ya ever seen one of those paragraphs on a Youtube comment section or something about how great Gen 5 was and how it just wasn't treated right at launch? Something to this effect...

"I don't care what anyone says, Gen 5 was awesome! It's such a shame that it was hated on/still hated by ignorant genwunners who can't get over their favorite Pokemon being excluded in exchange for seeing [list of great things Gen 5 did here]."

Now, in order to display how I think Dexit will be remembered, I'm going to edit that hypothetical comment slightly.

"I don't care what anyone says, Gen 8 was awesome! It's such a shame that it was hated on/still hated by ignorant natdexers who can't get over their favorite Pokemon being excluded in exchange for seeing [list of great things Gen 8 did here]."

Yup. I fully believe that not only will National Dex supporters and their cause be largely set aside, but that they'll be looked back on with outright contempt at a level similar to how Gen 5 fans felt about the supposed "genwunner menace" in the years after that generation wrapped up and people began to look back on it more fondly. Hell, I honestly think it could go even higher: When people are bitching about Gen 10 or whatever, I guarantee that they'll be a subset of the community that'll go back to Sword and Shield and think "it showed so much promise for the franchise, but because of the natdexers bitching Game Freak undid everything great to appease them". If you think that's absurd and it couldn't possibly happen after this level of hate and rage, well guess what, that's literally note-for-fucking-note what happened with Gen 5, right down to the core of the complaints being about the handling of old generation Pokemon. Honestly there's all kinds of downright eerie parallels between Generations 5 and 8 from their content to their fan reception, but that's a post for another time and I can't remember all the similarities.
 
Now, in order to display how I think Dexit will be remembered, I'm going to edit that hypothetical comment slightly.
To be fair.... I think you're basing the thought off a wrong idea though.

Dexit has basically been debunked by gamefreaks themselves. Whenever they purposely lied in order to buy time, planned the DLCs all along, or actually were planning to stick with "dexit" but backlash induced them to opt for the DLC+free update route, in a way or another eventually all the pokemon should be available in gen 8 (or, possibly 9), as it always been.

Thus, noone is going to be able to defend something that doesn't exist to begin with.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
To be fair.... I think you're basing the thought off a wrong idea though.

Dexit has basically been debunked by gamefreaks themselves. Whenever they purposely lied in order to buy time, planned the DLCs all along, or actually were planning to stick with "dexit" but backlash induced them to opt for the DLC+free update route, in a way or another eventually all the pokemon should be available in gen 8 (or, possibly 9), as it always been.

Thus, noone is going to be able to defend something that doesn't exist to begin with.
Where did this notion of everyone coming back within the Switch's lifetime come from? Was it the leaked movepool updates? Because right now even those show some mons not getting anything, implying they won't be added in the DLCs, leaving us still short a few hundred or so (and that's assuming everything with new TM/TR moves does come back, which seems unlikely as that includes 300+ Pokemon iirc and GF stated the returning number was "over 200", like I get they're not the best at PR but why would they ever downplay how many Pokemon are gonna come back like that after how fervent the outrage about it was). You could say with the models done for Gen 8 the National Dex should be good to go for a future generation on Switch, but then again that should've meant every Kanto Pokemon should've been in SWSH, and well...
 
To be fair.... I think you're basing the thought off a wrong idea though.

Dexit has basically been debunked by gamefreaks themselves. Whenever they purposely lied in order to buy time, planned the DLCs all along, or actually were planning to stick with "dexit" but backlash induced them to opt for the DLC+free update route, in a way or another eventually all the pokemon should be available in gen 8 (or, possibly 9), as it always been.

Thus, noone is going to be able to defend something that doesn't exist to begin with.
I would assume with this new DLC model, though, we’ll have a dexit every gen/game of only a certain pool being available at the beginning of each game.
 
I feel like you kind of have a big chip on your shoulders here, but you're just seeing the usual love/hate cycle in play. Or hate/love, I suppose.

I have seen the same. exact. thing happen with gens 3 & 4 (hell 4 Appreciation Station is still ongoing). 5 is just next line. People grow to like things, they might look back and better appreciate things, you can grow nostalgic for something you didn't think you would and probably more likely is people whose 5 were their first games w hen they were young (solidsnakeold.gif) and who they have strong appreciation for because of that. Also your point towards the gen one thing being what people often bring up is vastly different from my experience. First off, the big game I see touted now is BW2 whose big selling point was all the old pokemon being added to the regional dex. The things I see people hold up and against arguments of old hvae to do with route design, music design, pokemon design (this will always be a mainstay of these discussions), aesthetics, and so on. BW2 (which btw had the big selling poitn of old pokemon returning before post-game so the shade thrown at people throwing shade at gen 1 is a little mismanged imo) in particular probably became vogue because people appreciated how packed the game was relative to, well, SWSH.

At this point I expect Dexit & the state to cause retroactive appreciation more than anything else. Now that BW2 is getting appreciated I fully expect that the long downtrodden Gen 6 stans will rise up sooner than later.

Anyway that said National Dex will likely hang a dark cloud over the generation but would-be gen 8 stans have to go through some extreme gymnastics to blame, I dunno, Gen 10 issues on people complaining about the national dex. I expect there will be shade thrown at them but probably blame The Youths Of TOday or just gamefreak business practices in general. That's already been the big talking point since ORAS, minimum
 
I would assume with this new DLC model, though, we’ll have a dexit every gen/game of only a certain pool being available at the beginning of each game.
Well, yes, but that's not particularly different from how each new game had a limited pool of mons available until Bank or its update came out.
With the only difference you're also not able to gen them :P

That said, I disagree with that. The main reason provided (of the believable ones I mean) for Dexit was that they didn't have the models/animations ready. I can believe it, GameFreaks isn't exactly topnotch when it comes to modeling, animations or simply being efficent.
However, gen 9, 10 and potentially 11 are going to be on the Switch, so the baseline models and animations are already ready to be used. Of course they might improve models and animations per game, but the amount of work to do would (or... should) be muuuuch smaller than what was required for SwSh.

You could say with the models done for Gen 8 the National Dex should be good to go for a future generation on Switch, but then again that should've meant every Kanto Pokemon should've been in SWSH, and well...
Remember the main issue were the animations, not the models.
Specifically, Pokemon Camp's animations. Which isn't in Let's Go.


TLDR: In the light of the DLCs happening, I do expect next 2 or 3 generations to have entire pokedex available in game right away, at least until the Switch is abandoned and a new console comes out and we'll have a new "Dexit" again.
 
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An interesting comparison point between gens 5 and 8 when it comes to after-the-fact opinions is that what are usually considered gen 5's best aspects (story, PWT, the existence, if questionable execution, of Challenge Mode) are primarily single-player, where those considered SWSH's are more tuned towards multiplayer (raids, ease of competitive readiness). This is going to make it harder to get a good impression if you pick up SWSH a few years later (after price drops or emulation make the "not worth my money" point less relevant), since most of the playerbase will have moved on unless gen 9 REALLY screws up. Meanwhile, a new-to-them single player experience is going to be just as good as the day it released. After all, would you rather buy Smash 64 or Mario 64 in this day and age?
 
An interesting comparison point between gens 5 and 8 when it comes to after-the-fact opinions is that what are usually considered gen 5's best aspects (story, PWT, the existence, if questionable execution, of Challenge Mode) are primarily single-player, where those considered SWSH's are more tuned towards multiplayer (raids, ease of competitive readiness). This is going to make it harder to get a good impression if you pick up SWSH a few years later (after price drops or emulation make the "not worth my money" point less relevant), since most of the playerbase will have moved on unless gen 9 REALLY screws up. Meanwhile, a new-to-them single player experience is going to be just as good as the day it released. After all, would you rather buy Smash 64 or Mario 64 in this day and age?
However, I would assume that SwSh would be judged post DLC release (a few years down the line I’d imagine a SwSh “Gold” or whatever is released with all the DLC prepacked for $60) for future comparisons on singleplayer. As it stands the more valid comparison is BW1 vs SwSh, which feels like a more even field, imo.
 
Yup. I fully believe that not only will National Dex supporters and their cause be largely set aside, but that they'll be looked back on with outright contempt at a level similar to how Gen 5 fans felt about the supposed "genwunner menace" in the years after that generation wrapped up and people began to look back on it more fondly. Hell, I honestly think it could go even higher: When people are bitching about Gen 10 or whatever, I guarantee that they'll be a subset of the community that'll go back to Sword and Shield and think "it showed so much promise for the franchise, but because of the natdexers bitching Game Freak undid everything great to appease them".
And the worst part of that is that they are appeasing to a bunch of masses who never had intention to buy the games and they are just blindly following the "Gotta Catch 'Em All!" trend. Their irony will smite down once the DLCs are in and the ubermons get released, then the horrors from the Battlespot will be told.
 

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