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Double Battle Metagame.
- Thread starter Go2Sleep02
- Start date
This is my duo that helped me to beat a mostly-uber team earlier tonight, and feel like sharing:
Infernape w/ focus sash
Blaze
64a/252sa/196sp
Naive
-close combat
-fire blast
-fake out
-protect
ludicolo w/ damp rock
Swift swim
4hp/252sa/252sp
Modest
-surf
-ice beam
-rain dance
-grass knot
When infernape and ludicolo came out against the mostly uber team, the trainer of the team used dialga and dragonite. That's a situation where I had to alter my strategy: normally, this team's strategy is to use infernape's fake out on fliers, psychic types, and/or just about anything else that threatens ludicolo and/or infernape and/or is fast enough to go before a swift-swim-less ludicolo, then set up a rain dance on the resulting flinch to activate the swift swim, then on the next turn, use infernape's protect, and ludicolo's surf on the protect, but...
...since the dragonite could threaten both ludicolo and infernape if I used fake out on dragonite, because due to dragonite's inner focus, the flinch won't work, so I had to use ludicolo's ice beam on the first turn to eliminate the dragonite and use infernape's fake out on dialga instead. Then, on turn no. 2, I used close combat on dialga to severely weaken it, then dialga used roar of time, ludicolo fainted, but dialga had to take a unfortunate one-turn recharge attempt on turn no. 3, one that proved fatal to dialga, which goes to prove that to every strategy, depending on circumstances, you may want to consider a plan B...
...And just in case you're wondering "What are the other two of your planned four?", I have to put it to blunt: I don't feel like giving away all of my planned team of four at this point, but I can tell you that my planned team of four won that battle... And no, that planned team of four doesn't even have any ubers at all, in case you're wondering that as well...
Infernape w/ focus sash
Blaze
64a/252sa/196sp
Naive
-close combat
-fire blast
-fake out
-protect
ludicolo w/ damp rock
Swift swim
4hp/252sa/252sp
Modest
-surf
-ice beam
-rain dance
-grass knot
When infernape and ludicolo came out against the mostly uber team, the trainer of the team used dialga and dragonite. That's a situation where I had to alter my strategy: normally, this team's strategy is to use infernape's fake out on fliers, psychic types, and/or just about anything else that threatens ludicolo and/or infernape and/or is fast enough to go before a swift-swim-less ludicolo, then set up a rain dance on the resulting flinch to activate the swift swim, then on the next turn, use infernape's protect, and ludicolo's surf on the protect, but...
...since the dragonite could threaten both ludicolo and infernape if I used fake out on dragonite, because due to dragonite's inner focus, the flinch won't work, so I had to use ludicolo's ice beam on the first turn to eliminate the dragonite and use infernape's fake out on dialga instead. Then, on turn no. 2, I used close combat on dialga to severely weaken it, then dialga used roar of time, ludicolo fainted, but dialga had to take a unfortunate one-turn recharge attempt on turn no. 3, one that proved fatal to dialga, which goes to prove that to every strategy, depending on circumstances, you may want to consider a plan B...
...And just in case you're wondering "What are the other two of your planned four?", I have to put it to blunt: I don't feel like giving away all of my planned team of four at this point, but I can tell you that my planned team of four won that battle... And no, that planned team of four doesn't even have any ubers at all, in case you're wondering that as well...
Taunt on Gengar? Just a thought, but it still can't get pass those stupid scarfed smeragles.
As I've made known a few times, I really don't like the whole 'Skill Swap to get rid of Truant/Slow Start' thing. Too much setup, too much of a chance it'll get stopped when someone sees it coming. However, my friend has presented me with a starting duo I think is probably your best bet it when it comes to using Slaking.
Slaking @ Lum Berry
Truant
Adamant Nature
252 Atk/120 Def/136 Spe
-Body Slam/Return/Double-Edge
-Earthquake
-Shadow Claw/Fire Punch
-Protect
The ape we all know and love. He hits hard, and that's about all he needs to do. His partner is the one that does the real magic, though.
Arbok @ Choice Scarf
Intimidate
Jolly Nature
252 Atk/252 Spe
-Gastro Acid
-Poison Jab
-Crunch
-Ice Fang
The last three moves can be whatever you want, really. Arbok is the fastest user of Gastro Acid, and it's just as well that he's weak to Earthquake, because his only real job on the team is to vomit on Slaking.
The main problem with most Gastro Acid users is that they're slow, so they'll get Taunted at then that'll be the end of it. Arbok is faster than anyone he would be concerned about (Ninjask doesn't have Taunt), and Intimidate is just a lovely bonus on top of everything.
So on the opening turn, if you don't expect your opponent of having a Fake Out pokemon, and both of their pokemon will be hit by Earthquake, have Arbok use Gastro Acid, and then let Slaking break out an Earthquake. If you expect a Fake Out against Arbok, let him take the hit, and Slaking will just spend a turn using his Single-target moves; it's not like he'll have to waste a turn loafing around. If you expect a Fake Out followed immediately by a Taunt... well, you should probably switch Arbok out, and hope Slaking can take down at least one of the other pokemon.
If you're feeling ballsy, you can replace Protect on Slaking with Taunt to stop Trick Room users, who would ruin your day very much. If you're feeling less ballsy and want to keep Protect, you should probably go with this set:
Slaking @ Life Orb
Adamant
-Brick Break
-Shadow Claw
-Taunt
-Protect
To get the much appreciated 'total neutral coverage' (and super effective damage against Ghosts/Azelf), but your opponent will probably have to finish Arbok off for you. It's no big deal; Gastro Acid until he dies. So long as they don't have a Slaking or Regigigas on THEIR team, you can vomit without worry. The other concern with using this set is that Slaking can't hit both targets at once; this should be addressed by the partner that comes out after Arbok croaks.
Slaking @ Lum Berry
Truant
Adamant Nature
252 Atk/120 Def/136 Spe
-Body Slam/Return/Double-Edge
-Earthquake
-Shadow Claw/Fire Punch
-Protect
The ape we all know and love. He hits hard, and that's about all he needs to do. His partner is the one that does the real magic, though.
Arbok @ Choice Scarf
Intimidate
Jolly Nature
252 Atk/252 Spe
-Gastro Acid
-Poison Jab
-Crunch
-Ice Fang
The last three moves can be whatever you want, really. Arbok is the fastest user of Gastro Acid, and it's just as well that he's weak to Earthquake, because his only real job on the team is to vomit on Slaking.
The main problem with most Gastro Acid users is that they're slow, so they'll get Taunted at then that'll be the end of it. Arbok is faster than anyone he would be concerned about (Ninjask doesn't have Taunt), and Intimidate is just a lovely bonus on top of everything.
So on the opening turn, if you don't expect your opponent of having a Fake Out pokemon, and both of their pokemon will be hit by Earthquake, have Arbok use Gastro Acid, and then let Slaking break out an Earthquake. If you expect a Fake Out against Arbok, let him take the hit, and Slaking will just spend a turn using his Single-target moves; it's not like he'll have to waste a turn loafing around. If you expect a Fake Out followed immediately by a Taunt... well, you should probably switch Arbok out, and hope Slaking can take down at least one of the other pokemon.
If you're feeling ballsy, you can replace Protect on Slaking with Taunt to stop Trick Room users, who would ruin your day very much. If you're feeling less ballsy and want to keep Protect, you should probably go with this set:
Slaking @ Life Orb
Adamant
-Brick Break
-Shadow Claw
-Taunt
-Protect
To get the much appreciated 'total neutral coverage' (and super effective damage against Ghosts/Azelf), but your opponent will probably have to finish Arbok off for you. It's no big deal; Gastro Acid until he dies. So long as they don't have a Slaking or Regigigas on THEIR team, you can vomit without worry. The other concern with using this set is that Slaking can't hit both targets at once; this should be addressed by the partner that comes out after Arbok croaks.
this should be the most up to date version of my team. post problems.
Kingdra (M) @ Damp Rock
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 96 HP/162 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Rain Dance
- Surf
- Signal Beam
- Dragon Pulse
---
Toxicroak (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 130 HP/126 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Sucker Punch
- Fake Out
- Cross Chop
- Ice Punch
---
Latias (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 14 HP/248 Spd/248 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Thunder
- Shadow Ball
---
Gyarados (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 14 HP/248 Atk/248 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Tail
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
---
Quagsire (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Damp
EVs: 14 HP/124 Def/248 SAtk/124 SDef
Quiet nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Rain Dance
- Stone Edge
---
Vaporeon (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 SAtk
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Wish
- Protect
- Surf
- Ice Beam
---
Kingdra (M) @ Damp Rock
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 96 HP/162 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Rain Dance
- Surf
- Signal Beam
- Dragon Pulse
---
Toxicroak (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 130 HP/126 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Sucker Punch
- Fake Out
- Cross Chop
- Ice Punch
---
Latias (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 14 HP/248 Spd/248 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Thunder
- Shadow Ball
---
Gyarados (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 14 HP/248 Atk/248 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Tail
- Waterfall
- Ice Fang
---
Quagsire (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Damp
EVs: 14 HP/124 Def/248 SAtk/124 SDef
Quiet nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Rain Dance
- Stone Edge
---
Vaporeon (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 SAtk
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Wish
- Protect
- Surf
- Ice Beam
---
Machamp@toxic orb
no guard
252atk/252hp
bulk up
cross chop
eq
stone edge
with
Bronzong@lefties
skill swap
filler
filler
filler
and walrein@coice scarf
jolly
252spd/252hp
sheer cold
filler
filler
filler
basically trick your opponent into thinking machamp is guts then swap no guard onto walrein.
no guard
252atk/252hp
bulk up
cross chop
eq
stone edge
with
Bronzong@lefties
skill swap
filler
filler
filler
and walrein@coice scarf
jolly
252spd/252hp
sheer cold
filler
filler
filler
basically trick your opponent into thinking machamp is guts then swap no guard onto walrein.
The problem with that strategy is is that it takes a good while to set up, during which the opponent can screw with your slow pokes. Also, the presence of OHKO clause completely screws the strategy. And even if it could work like that, why Bulk Up on a Toxiced Machamp? You won't have time to set up and abuse any stat boosts while you're taking exponentially increasing damage while being assualted by two pokemon?
it says that in the double battles article. check the site.
Err...it wasn't really recommended for use in the article. In fact, is was used as an example of strategic viability. In reality, if you're opponent is competent at all, you'd probably won't be able to set it up successfully. Everyone is so darn slow, not to mention it's painfully obvious what you're trying to do when you Skill Swap anyway. The problem with "tricking" your opponent is that on the first turn, they're convinced you're running this exact strategy because Toxic Orb hasn't activated yet. They're already trying to foil the strategy while you're trying to set up like the opponent is unaware. Once you swap and they see Machamp is poisoned, they'll just be mildly amused that Machamp is now ticking down.
Nah, No Guard makes them never miss (even when the foe flies or digs or dives and such).
I do remember reading that Gravity has no effect on OHKO moves, however.
Pretty much. The insane attack power you receive may be tempting, but in reality, you can do so much more damage just by simply attacking in the time it takes to set Shuckle up. Not to mention his movepool isn't the greatest.
Yes, Power Trick Shuckle with Trick Room is not worth the time to set up as Scepticallistic said. If you are tempted to set up under Trick Room, Belly Drum Snorlax can boost its attack sky high(and allow other teammates to Psych Up the boost if they want) but he has very reliable defenses unlike Shuckle after Power Trick(not to mention its typing is much worse). Swords Dance Rhyperior is also better at setting up under Trick Room with Stab Rock Slide just like Shuckle, and more reliable defenses.
Something I saw in a Platinum battle video the other day:
Purugly [Own Tempo]
@Focus Sash
- Fake Out
- Return
- Shadow Claw\Sucker Punch
Cresselia
- Swagger
Premise is simple: Fake Out one Pokemon with Purugly, and in the meantime give it a Swagger boost, which it can get without being confused.
Purugly [Own Tempo]
@Focus Sash
- Fake Out
- Return
- Shadow Claw\Sucker Punch
Cresselia
- Swagger
Premise is simple: Fake Out one Pokemon with Purugly, and in the meantime give it a Swagger boost, which it can get without being confused.
Quite a simple, yet effective premise. Yet, it can be countered very easily. When Purugly Fake Out's one, the other attacks, thus activating the Focus Sash. Next turn, you just need a priority move or someone faster than Purugly's 112 Speed to give it the KO. Of course, this gives the opportunity for Cresselia to get off a Calm Mind. But who would waste an entire Pokemon slot for one CM?
Well, then, let's tweak it a bit. Let's replace Cresselia with, say, Follow Me\Swagger Togekiss or Clefable. And give Purugly Endure in the last slot, since Protect blocks Swagger but Endure doesn't.
First turn: Purugly flinches one Pokemon (maybe another Fake Out or Taunt user), while Togekiss\Clefable Swaggers Purugly.
Second turn: Togekiss\Clefable uses Follow Me. Purugly takes out the biggest threat on the field
From then on, Purugly can Endure to stall while Togekiss\Clefable can either a) give more Swagger boosts, b) recover health, or c) attack something that resists Purugly's moves.
Also, note that not many common Doubles starters are faster than Purugly - just Ambipom and Weavile, really. Other fast starters, like Zapdos, Latios, and Infernape, are OHKO'd by +2 Return from Purugly if they have no HP\Def investment
First turn: Purugly flinches one Pokemon (maybe another Fake Out or Taunt user), while Togekiss\Clefable Swaggers Purugly.
Second turn: Togekiss\Clefable uses Follow Me. Purugly takes out the biggest threat on the field
From then on, Purugly can Endure to stall while Togekiss\Clefable can either a) give more Swagger boosts, b) recover health, or c) attack something that resists Purugly's moves.
Also, note that not many common Doubles starters are faster than Purugly - just Ambipom and Weavile, really. Other fast starters, like Zapdos, Latios, and Infernape, are OHKO'd by +2 Return from Purugly if they have no HP\Def investment
Ah, but you forget about multiple target-hitting moves such as Earthquake or Discharge. On the second turn, the Follow Me will be useless in the case of a multiple target-hitting move being used, and Purugly will get KO-ed, due to it's mediocre defenses and the Focus Sash having been used.
I guess you can say it is a useful strategy, but not flawless.
I guess you can say it is a useful strategy, but not flawless.
Why leave out 3 other sets on Cresselia? The more sets the better.
There are probably more moves on Cresselia; it could be that he didn't get to see what they were, or perhaps he can't recall them.
@hhjj: the opening of that strategy seems to have the potential to work rather well, but during turns three and four your Pokemon are completely vulnerable to attacks. That is way too long for a set-up; you're giving the opponent ample time to do whatever they please.
@hhjj: the opening of that strategy seems to have the potential to work rather well, but during turns three and four your Pokemon are completely vulnerable to attacks. That is way too long for a set-up; you're giving the opponent ample time to do whatever they please.
Crobat (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP/16 SAtk/236 Spd
Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
- Taunt
- Heat Wave
- U-Turn
- Air Slash
---
Moltres (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SAtk/252 Spd
Modest (+SAtk, -Atk)
- U-Turn
- Heat Wave
- Overheat
- Air Slash
My game plan is simple with this. I often see various common set-up leads, and this is the combo that I plan on using to stop the majority of them. The three I dislike most are Smeargle + Dusknoir, Cresselia + Metagross, and Jolteon/Kingdra + Ludicolo. This is how it plays out for me.
I have autoweather ready to setup behind these two (haven't decided between Hail or Sandstorm, but I am leaning towards Sandstorm), and it will be activated the first turn by either of the two's U-turn or switch so there will be no sashes in play if I think they have one.
Smeargle + Dusknoir - Moltres can safely U-turn or Heatwave faster than Smeargle, and Crobat can Taunt Dusknoir or U-turn Smeargle. Smeargle is dead and Dusknoir is Taunted. If either uses Protect, I could care less as their turn is wasted at my advantage.
Jolteon + Ludicolo - Jolteon is always faster than my Crobat for good reason. Moltres will always Heatwave on this pairing. Crobat will U-turn Ludicolo for the kill or U-turn Jolteon if I suspect Ludicolo might Protect, and switching in my weather negates any that Jolteon would have setup. Protect again gives me an advantage.
Kingdra + Ludicolo - I am not quite sure who is going to Rain Dance, but I am faster. Any advice on this one? I don't have anything to 2HKO either easily without letting one set up and wrecking me. I can just see me Heatwaving twice only to have Kingdra sweep my whole team after it gets up Rain Dance.
Cresselia + Metagross - Two Heatwaves is an option, but I have Overheat on Moltres ONLY for Metagross. It gets the OHKO every time (I think even with the fire resist berry), so I am free to Taunt Cresselia with Crobat and making sure it can't do anything harmful to me while I switch in my clean-up crew.
Any helpful considerations? The idea behind using Moltres over another pokemon in this situation is the access to Heatwave, Earthquake immunity, OHKO on Metagross, U-turn, and lack of any rocks/spikes/etc. ruining it.
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP/16 SAtk/236 Spd
Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
- Taunt
- Heat Wave
- U-Turn
- Air Slash
---
Moltres (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SAtk/252 Spd
Modest (+SAtk, -Atk)
- U-Turn
- Heat Wave
- Overheat
- Air Slash
My game plan is simple with this. I often see various common set-up leads, and this is the combo that I plan on using to stop the majority of them. The three I dislike most are Smeargle + Dusknoir, Cresselia + Metagross, and Jolteon/Kingdra + Ludicolo. This is how it plays out for me.
I have autoweather ready to setup behind these two (haven't decided between Hail or Sandstorm, but I am leaning towards Sandstorm), and it will be activated the first turn by either of the two's U-turn or switch so there will be no sashes in play if I think they have one.
Smeargle + Dusknoir - Moltres can safely U-turn or Heatwave faster than Smeargle, and Crobat can Taunt Dusknoir or U-turn Smeargle. Smeargle is dead and Dusknoir is Taunted. If either uses Protect, I could care less as their turn is wasted at my advantage.
Jolteon + Ludicolo - Jolteon is always faster than my Crobat for good reason. Moltres will always Heatwave on this pairing. Crobat will U-turn Ludicolo for the kill or U-turn Jolteon if I suspect Ludicolo might Protect, and switching in my weather negates any that Jolteon would have setup. Protect again gives me an advantage.
Kingdra + Ludicolo - I am not quite sure who is going to Rain Dance, but I am faster. Any advice on this one? I don't have anything to 2HKO either easily without letting one set up and wrecking me. I can just see me Heatwaving twice only to have Kingdra sweep my whole team after it gets up Rain Dance.
Cresselia + Metagross - Two Heatwaves is an option, but I have Overheat on Moltres ONLY for Metagross. It gets the OHKO every time (I think even with the fire resist berry), so I am free to Taunt Cresselia with Crobat and making sure it can't do anything harmful to me while I switch in my clean-up crew.
Any helpful considerations? The idea behind using Moltres over another pokemon in this situation is the access to Heatwave, Earthquake immunity, OHKO on Metagross, U-turn, and lack of any rocks/spikes/etc. ruining it.
I've tried this combo before, except with a Crobat instead of Cresselia (... since Crobat is faster, this means Crobat can use Swagger a second time to get Purugly to +4 before Purugly uses its 2nd attack... and also Crobat's immune to fake out. I used this combo in DP, so my Crobat had hypnosis, so that in 2nd turn, Purugly can KO one while Crobat Hypnosis the other). It works ok, but Purugly's just too fragile to take a hit, so after the 2nd turn, it'll probably be dead already... ... so the benefit isn't that great.
EDIT: O yeah, and Purugly's totally walled by Steels.
First off i would like to say i love this concept. This can really screw up leads in doubles. Zapdos is of a main concern leading due to both Crobat & Moltres having a electric weakness.
I would invest in some EV's in attack on Moltres as U-turn might not get the ohko on Smeargle if it has invested in defense.(Someone please do calcs on this. will be greatly appreciated) Also a choiced item is risky in doubles since you are locked into one move. Overheat is horrible in this scenario as the sp.atk drop and locked into it will not be a help.
Lastly, Seeing as Explosion is as rampant as Teen-age Pregancy the lack of having Protection(Pun intended) on any pokemon really hurts as any good-stuff pokemon with explosion will rape first turn
Besides that i really like the look of this. Im going to do some playtesting with this seeing as i am going to the vgs2009
I agree with this, but most things fast enough to explode are outsped by Moltres with the scarf, and I could always pack a back up pokemon I can switch to that is immune to, resistant to, or can prevent Explosion (Quagsire, Gengar/Rotom/Froslass, Rhyperior/Metagross).
New new idea - Give Moltres Safeguard over Overheat to prevent status for the team!
My new new new idea (of which I have plenty lately) is pretty simple, but I don't think it could work as a lead. However, I bet it could be rather effective, especially with some form of setup like Light Screen or Safeguard.
Venomoth (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 Spd, 252 SAtk
Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
- Bug Buzz
- Sleep Spore
- U-Turn
- Skill Swap
---
Salamence (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd
Naughty (+Atk, -Sp.Def)
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage/Dragon Claw
- Protect
- Fire Blast
This idea is great. The idea is simple. Venomoth outspeeds Salamence, so I use Skill Swap to get a free Intimidate (that works, right?) plus giving Salamence Tinted Lens. I Dragon Dance if I have Safeguard up or if I think I can take one hit. Then, I sweep like crazy since I have an unresisted +1 Life Orb Outrage backed up by Sleep support (if it doesn't die of course).
I like the idea of using this as either a Double Switch situation or after an explosion/memento lead to soften the enemy, as even one turn with this out unchecked is going to take something down!