DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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Not according to http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/. Crobat is clearly listed as UU although it should be BL.

I also want to bring somehting up about NFEs: where do they belong? Kadabra and Dusclops are still viable choices on a team, espically when playing BL (although Zam is already BL). Also, with Haunter/Gengar, Haunter has the stats, but lacks Gengar's movepool, so how could it be BL? This doesn't mean free-for-all on NFE discussion, but placing them in the same tier is a little bad. (I can't see Abra competing in BL, but I can see it in UU).
 
There was a thread discussing NFE's a while back, but I'm not sure a consensus was reached.

From what I recall most UU battlers were happy to see unique NFE's allowed in the UU metagame (Scyther, Pikachu, Clamperl etc.) but as for the others opinion was split ...
 
There was something I suggested a while back and it went like this:

Each drop in the line is a tier down, not counting BL. Salamence is OU, so Shelgon would be UU and Bagon NU. Tangrowth is OU, Tangela would be UU. Things like Kadabra that would end up in UU by this system but are too strong for it are banned to BL. When branch evos occur, count starts from the lowest tier. Vaporeon could be Uber for all it mattered but as long as Flareon is UU, Eevee is NU.
 
But this is UU and BL. I like your thinking though.

Anyway, I also wanted to arise the issue of Slowking. Its a decent Sp. Wall, has Nasty Plot, shares Slack Off via slowpoke, and can beat Blissey one vs. one. with Nasty Plot. I think it should be moved to BL.
 
There was something I suggested a while back and it went like this:

Each drop in the line is a tier down, not counting BL. Salamence is OU, so Shelgon would be UU and Bagon NU. Tangrowth is OU, Tangela would be UU. Things like Kadabra that would end up in UU by this system but are too strong for it are banned to BL. When branch evos occur, count starts from the lowest tier. Vaporeon could be Uber for all it mattered but as long as Flareon is UU, Eevee is NU.
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Personally I'm against all non-unique NFE's being included in UU, I like UU as it stands, a distinct metagame, with Tangela, Gligar and Sneasel all running around it essentially becomes OU-lite, at least that's how I perceive it ...

Anyway, I also wanted to arise the issue of Slowkinhg.
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Was discussed a few pages back and was suggested to be moved to BL ...
 
Tangela and Gligar are staples on many UU teams. And I've seen Sneasel used in UU anyways, I don't see how an official classification is going to make a difference.
 
Kanga can stay UU , Fakeout/counter-sash/reversal/suckerpunch actually works pretty well in the OU metagame.
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Anyway, I also wanted to arise the issue of Slowkinhg. Its a decent Sp. Wall, has Nasty Plot, shares Slack Off via slowpoke, and can beat Blissey one vs. one. with Nasty Plot.
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Power in OU doesn't affect a pokemon's UU/BL position at all.

Kangaskhan can't do much to Rotom, and is thus easily countered by it. Rotom can Will-O-Wisp the kangaroo with speed that's JUST higher, and then easily survive a non-STAB Crunch, and if Kanga has Sucker Punch, it won't work when Rotom is giving a Will-O-Wisp.
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Don't forget about Scrappy (which is superior to Early Bird most of the time anyways). Rotom is 2HKO'd by Adamant 252 Return or 1HKO'd if Kanga has a choice band. Some Kanga's use Sub as well, which would block WoW (Personally, the variant of Kangaskhan I use most is Sub/Return/EQ/Sucker Punch).

My main concern with Kanga is that there's nothing that can truly switch in safely, and unlike say...Glaceon or Scyther, it only has one weakness (which isn't easily exploited) and great defenses as well as speed.



On the NFE front, I'm pretty sure that both Sneasel and Gligar weren't allowed for sure (as they're both almost exactly the same as their evolved forms), and Tangela wasn't completely decided (it can't utilize physical attacks as well as Tangrowth and has an inferior physical movepool in addition to slightly higher speed).

Oh, okay. We need an updated tier list. *starts typing*
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The changes have been made on the SCMS, they just haven't been cached yet (not sure why).
 
Shiny Oddish said:
Erm not on Shoddy, I can count the number of times I've seen both on one hand ...
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Well smogon isn't shoddy, so tough.

The thing about NFE's is that people want to use them, but they aren't allowed anywhere. I think that sanjay120 has a great opinion, but I agree with the fact that some people want their UU metagame OU free. I don't see a problem with Abra running around in UU (and abra has awesome stats for a first evolution). Maybe we need something that compares NFE's to UU, say "UU counter parts". For example; Tauros and Kanga. And Rhydon doesn't get Solid Rock, making it extremly less viable than Rhyperior. It does act differently, since it can't stay in and wall any kind of attack with a sandstorm up.
And Phione belongs in UU, right?
 
I say we move Relicanth to BL. Being able to take a Gyrados Earthquake, even if it DD once is awsome, and being able to OHKO with head smash is better. Rockpolish makes it so has a chance at sweeping, and being Rock means if has a small increase in SS
 
Quagsire counters Relicanth very effectively, as does Gastrodon. Almost all of Relicanth's power is coming from Head Smash - if that's resisted, then Relicanth is just a bulky sweeper with a mere 90 attack (admittedly, Double-Edge helps it as well). The few times I've seen it in UU it hasn't been very troubling. SS boost isn't really a factor in UU.

Anyways, anyone have opinions on Torterra being viable in UU? IIRC someone brought it up awhile ago, but it wasn't discussed much.
 
Acredula said:
Well smogon isn't shoddy, so tough.
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Sanjay had made a claim that those two pokemon were the staple of many teams, I merely pointed out that this wasn't reflected in my experience at Shoddy Battle. Whether this is the case on Wi-Fi I do not know, although from what people have told me about Wi-Fi, its more felxible with tiers and such.

I'm actually quite aware that smogon isn't shoddy, however since you can't actually battle at smogon, I don't see the relavence of your point or why you always have to be quite so abrasive in your responses ...

Anyways, anyone have opinions on Torterra being viable in UU? IIRC someone brought it up awhile ago, but it wasn't discussed much.
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Strangely enough I battled one yesterday, and to be honest it wasn't particularly difficult. This one was lacking an offensive rock attack so my Altaria walled its attacks. I predicted it switching in on my Probopass whose HP: Ice did almost 80% - so you can imagine if that had been something that can actually dish out damage ... I see no problem in it being UU, anyone else?
 
Shiny Oddish said:
Strangely enough I battled one yesterday, and to be honest it wasn't particularly difficult. This one was lack an offensive rock attack so my Altaria walled its attacks. I predicted it switching in on my Probopass whose HP: Ice did almost 80% - so you can imagine if that had been something that can actually dish out damage ... I see no problem in it being UU, anyone else?
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I was the one who originally brought it up earlier near the begining in the topic but not many people believed it was as weak as I pointed it out as. Torterra has all kinds of problems in D/P environment, it may have great defenses and resist Rock/Ground but its weak to Bug/Flying. 4x Ice weakness never goes down well, it loses its water resistance and gains a fire weakness on top.

As for offense it only just breaks what is considered threatening but due to speed and the kind of role it follows theres no way it'd ever sweep. Often Torterra will have to be support orientated if it wants to survive.
 
Hopefully the Kanga talk is dying down. Her strength lies mostly in the power of Scrappy Return, the CB version simply cannot be countered by one single pokemon but can be stopped with resistances (A normal resister and a physical defensive flier wall it entirely). I'd say it's up there in UU powerhouses like Pinsir and Hitmonlee but not too broken to banish.

Anyways, anyone have opinions on Torterra being viable in UU?
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He seems a bit too strong. An exploitable weakness and low speed means it would be marginally easy to stop from rampaging your team but his defensive stats and resistance to SR give him a ton of opportunities to switch-in and start wrecking with a CB/CS set.

A defensive set could also be used on him to great effect provided you can stop Ice from ruining his day. Synthesis, Seed, and Resttalk are viable methods of recovery on him, would definitely be a headache (though UU could use another physical wall).
 
I have problems with torterra too, because I have several rock/water/ground/poison types on my team. :(
rock/grass/ground makes good coverage, so it is hard to switch in. Only bronzong and brelloom wall its entire movepool. Anyone with a faster Ice user, or a flying type can pwn it easily.
 
Yes, but he is easily stopped by a strong Ice attack, WoW, a powerful fire attack and basically anything from the special side of the spectrum that hits Super-Effective. Water attacks do a decent amount of damage as well. Most electrics are packing some kind of attack to hit ground (usually HP Ice or Ice Punch) so it easily is taken care of. If he gives you trouble you need more coverage and resistances.
 
Drifblim can stop everything but Stone Edge (and can even take a max atk CB Stone Edge without dying once), Vespiquen resists Grass even harder while dying to Rock even harder, Aggron and Bastiodon stop everything but the Earthquake, Meganium is probably the best counter having no weaks, Hitmontop with Intimidate also can stop him.
 
As previously mentioned Altaria can take everything but Stone Edge, and Blastoise should have little problems taking predicted ground/rock attacks.
 
Torterra is one of those Pokemon who could smash UU up pretty bad if the user had excellent prediction and was able to pick the right move for the incoming Pokemon. To that end, I think:

- Substitute
- Wood Hammer/Seed Bomb
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

If Torterra was to force a switch with his excellent defences and typing and Substitite on the switch, there isn't really any UU Pokemon who are gonna enjoy taking an appropriate move from 347 Atk. Sub can also help him to activate Overgrow.

The Rock Polish set can also leave a decent trail of bodies behind him, but I think the Sub set would be the most devestating in UU.
 
I've check some damage calculation for Swords Dance Life Orb Jolly Pinsir right now. I know it is revenge killable, tough it is not wallable, thus it has no true counter; all the bulkiest uu fall to one of its moves, assume all of the following as 252 HP/252 Def+:
Quagsire gets 2hkoed by X-Scissor.
Meganium gets ohkoed by X-Scissor.
Walrein gets 2hkoed by X-Scissor, also it is nearly always ohkoed by Stone Edge.
Poliwrath gets 2hkoed by Earthquake.
Gligar, if allowed, gets 2hkoed by Stone Edge.
Altaria gets ohkoed by Stone Edge.
Blastoise gets 2hkoed by anything Pinsir decides to throw at him.
Shuckle gets always 2hkoed by Stone Edge, chances are that it is ohkoed.
Drifblim gets ohkoed by Stone Edge.
Wailord gets 2hkoed by anything.
Mawile gets ohkoed by Earthquake AFTER the Intimidate.
Ampharos gets ohkoed by Earthquake.
Armaldo gets ohkoed by Stone Edge.
Aggron gets ohkoed by Earthquake.
Bastiodon gets ohkoed by Earthquake
Probopass gets ohkoed by Earthquake.
Cradily gets ohkoed by X-Scissor.
Golem gets often ohkoed by Earthquake.
Wigglytuff gets 2hkoed by anything Pinsir throws at him.
Muk gets ohkoed by Earthquake.
Swalot gets ohkoed by Earthquake.
Solrock gets ohkoed by X-Scissor.
Toxicroak gets ohkoed by Earthquake.

Ok, you can outpredict it sending a flying type on his Earthquake/X-Scissor, tough Swellow, Dodrio and Crobat are ohkoed by Life Orbed Stone Edge if Pinsir manages to predict your switch. Crobat is the only who can possibly resist (with a maximum of 2% of is total hp). Bulky Crobat always survives unboosted Stone Edges, tough it is unable to ohko Pinsir (0 atk evs crobat averages the 44% range on a 0 hp/0 def Pinsir.).
 
Thankfully Pinsir only has 295 speed, so if you are smart you can switch in correctly. A fast flying type can switch into everything save for Stone Edge, but if it used Stone edge you'r in trouble
 
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